Is he a 'Franchise QB'?: Mark Sanchez

[Megatron]

In football it's generally thought that if you have a 'Franchise QB' you are set for 10-15 years and will be able to contend if you put enough complementary pieces around that QB. Except for in the rare cases where the complementary pieces are stronger than the QB (85 Bears, 00 Ravens), it's basically a requirement that you need a good QB to be a Super Bowl contender.

In this thread, I will present to you a handful of players who are currently the undisputed starter for their team. These guys will not have won a Super Bowl before, since all of the QBs with a ring would likely be considered 'Franchise QBs'. This thread isn't for them. This is a thread for guys that may or may not have the talent to lead his team to a Super Bowl Championship. I will list the pros and cons of the player listed and then I'll open it up to you guys to decide if the said QB is capable of being labeled a 'Franchise QB'.

Please note: my definition of a 'Franchise QB' is a guy that is the center of your offense and won't ride the coattails of his defense to a title (Dilfer with the Ravens, Grossman on the Bears as examples of guys I WOULDN'T consider franchise QB's even though they won/made a Super Bowl as the Starting QB.
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With all of that out of the way, let me introduce the first case of this thread - New York Jets starting QB Mark Sanchez.

Yes, he's a franchise QB
-2nd most postseason road wins all time
-1 of only 2 QBs to make the Conference Championship his first 2 seasons
-Playoff numbers are better than his regular season numbers - aka 'Big game player'
-Tom Brady began his career simply as a guy that 'wins' before becoming a multiple time MVP.

No, he's not a franchise QB
-Only a career 55% passer through 1400 attempts
-Only 4 more TDs than INTs
-Has benefited from both strong defenses and ball control offense his first two seasons. Last year he was given more responsibilities and didn't succeed as well.
-He's not mature enough and needed time to develop on the bench. Only 1 full season in college as a starter and given the starting spot right away in NY. No competition first few seasons = no reason to think job is threatened.
-Rex Ryan is no Bill Belichick and the Jets don't have a track record of developing QBs.
-Gets more attention than his play deserves because of the market he plays in.

As you can see from my list, my stance is pretty clear on Sanchez. This guy shouldn't be relied on to win games because he just can't protect the football and isn't all that accurate. He benefited his first two years from the Jets conservative efforts and didn't show much improvement, although there was some there. Compared to his contemporaries - Stafford, Freeman - he seems like he still doesn't 'have it' and is a long ways away from being your typical 'Franchise QB'. Closer to a Dilfer or Grossman than a Brady or Manning to me.

 

[jmt225]

This is going to sound like a cop out, but we still need next year to see.

I know most will argue that they've seen enough to write him off, but they haven't. He's been playing in a horrible offensive scheme these past couple of years. The Jets could never make up their mind whether or not they wanted Sanchez to play conservatively or go out there and make big plays. Now with Tony Sparano there, however, he'll get a steady play calling scheme to work with and Sparano will put Sanchez in good situations.

So, again... this is the year. Do I think Sanchez will come into his own? A part of me does. I don't ever think he'll be a top 5 QB in the league, but I do feel like he'll get to the point where he's consistently good and keeps the mistakes at a minimum. And with the Jets defense being what they are, that's really all they need from their quarterback. They don't need a Drew Brees or Peyton Manning... they just need someone who can go out there and give their defense some rest while putting up about 21 points a game. That's it, and I think Sanchez can do that for them. If he doesn't this year, though, it will be time to come to the realization that the guy isn't fit to be an NFL starting quarterback.

 

[Theo Mays]

I've never really been a fan of Sanchez. I just don't like the guy and have never really seen the appeal in him as a QB. I see him as a middle of the road guy who can hold a franchise over for a few years, but only if the talent around him (both offense and defense) is above average and capable of winning games. Right now I don't see Sanchez as a "game changer" and I think the Jets are even starting to see that with them picking up Tebow. I know Tebow isn't great, but it is definitely something worth looking into.

So my answer is obviously no. Could he in the future, sure. However I don't see it happening. Nothing more than a guy who will win some games, but never become anything special or towards the elite of NFL quarterbacks.

 

[Big Sexy]

Hell no he isn't a franchise qb and it isn't even debatable. The guy is inaccurate, inconsistent, and can't be counted on to win games. The majority of his success has come because of the play of those around him. Give him a good defense and a running game and he'll be fine but that isn't the mark of a franchise qb. It's also never a good sign when your teammates question your abilities. The guy isn't even a top 15 qb.

 

[Stormtrooper]

First of all, there are very, very few QBs that can truely be considered Franchise QBs. In fact, the only franchise QBs I see in the league right now are the ones with rings. Eli Manning, Brees, Brady, Peyton Manning (arguable, actually, given his unknown ability to bounce back from the neck injury), Rodgers, Roethlisberger. The only other one that is considerable for such a distiction is Phil Rivers, thanks to many years of regular season success (coupled with postseason failure), and that's not entirely certain.

Is Mark Sanchez on that level? Hell fucking no. He has proven during his first 3 seasons to be an adequate QB, but can't touch any of those guys RIGHT NOW. Do I think he can be a franchise QB? Yes, he could get there in the future. Would I rather have a guy like Sanchez then Peyton Manning in 2012 coming off 4 neck surgeries? Yes.

Mark Sanchez has had more success then his 2 cohorts from the 2009 draft. As of now, Stafford is a 1 year wonder after 2 seasons of being an injury prone bust (that's what you're called when you are not playing more then you're playing for multiple seasons), who, by the way, had all that success thanks to the people around him, namely Calvin Johnson (I could have thrown for 4000 yards throwing to Megatron). Josh Freeman had such a shitty year last year that most pundits thought the Bucs would making a change at QB to go with the head coaching change.

Mark Sanchez has had more success in the NFL then every other QB drafted since 2006. He's won 4 postseason road games (2nd most all time, and he was a huge part of those games). That's more then all the QBs since then have had in the postseason. Mark Sanchez has 11 Game Winning Drives and 9 4th Quarter Comebacks (2 of which were in the postseason).

And what's this nonsense about the Jets not developing QBs? You know who never developed QBs? Bill Belichick, until 2001. Neither has the Miami Dolphins since Marino. Nor the Washington Redskins. Does that mean that QBs for those teams will always fail? No, it just meant they haven't succeeded yet. To use a wrestling analogy, has Dolph Ziggler won a World title? No. Does that mean he will never win a World Title? No.

 

[Mustang Sally]

First of all, Sanchez is a crab-crawling, shit-eating, sonofabitch fuckstick New York Jet......so my opinion can hardly be considered objective.

That said, the guy makes an awful lot of bad decisions under fire and his presence under center makes it hard to believe he is going into his fourth season; he still looks like a rookie out there.

Year after year, the Jets seem to have a terrific offensive line. A great line takes a lot of pressure off a QB and allows him to make better decisions. Can you imagine what Sanchez would be like working behind a weak offensive line?

Maybe he'll develop into a decent QB with a lot of time under his belt, but there's no way he'll ever be a franchise player.

Goddamn Jets.

 

[Stormtrooper]

First of all, Sanchez is a crab-crawling, shit-eating, sonofabitch fuckstick New York Jet......so my opinion can hardly be considered objective.

That said, the guy makes an awful lot of bad decisions under fire and his presence under center makes it hard to believe he is going into his fourth season; he still looks like a rookie out there.

Year after year, the Jets seem to have a terrific offensive line. A great line takes a lot of pressure off a QB and allows him to make better decisions. Can you imagine what Sanchez would be like working behind a weak offensive line?

Maybe he'll develop into a decent QB with a lot of time under his belt, but there's no way he'll ever be a franchise player.

Goddamn Jets.

To the contrary, the Jets O-Line in 2011 was not at all good.
http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/02/23/ranking-the-2011-offensive-lines-part-2/
They were ranked 12th, which was a really generous ranking.


http://footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol
Ranked 17th in Pass Protection.
Pay attention to the pass protection stats, as that's what we're talking about with Mark Sanchez.

Mark Sanchez had a poor Offensive line last season. They had a great O-Line in 2009 (albeit it was much better at run blocking (8th) then pass protection (23rd)) and a good one in 2010 (again, better at run blocking (3rd) then Pass protection (8th), but the pass protection improved from 2009).

2 of his 3 seasons, he has had a sieve of a pass blocking O-Lineman. Alan Faneca in 2009 (phenomenal o-lineman, but shitty against the pass) and Wayne Hunter in 2011 (who sucks major balls as a starting Tackle). Even Damien Woody was a better run blocker then a pass rusher.

 

[Megatron]

Mark Sanchez has had more success then his 2 cohorts from the 2009 draft. As of now, Stafford is a 1 year wonder after 2 seasons of being an injury prone bust (that's what you're called when you are not playing more then you're playing for multiple seasons), who, by the way, had all that success thanks to the people around him, namely Calvin Johnson (I could have thrown for 4000 yards throwing to Megatron). Josh Freeman had such a shitty year last year that most pundits thought the Bucs would making a change at QB to go with the head coaching change.

I already addressed Stafford in the Sports Bar and how you're incredibly underrating what he did and how you aren't considering circumstances of his two injuries. And I know you were just using hyperbole, but it's not like any chump can throw for 4000 yards with Calvin there. They did his rookie year, but Mike Martz was the OC and that generally means more pass attempts which obviously increases your chance in doing so. They weren't even close in 0-16 season, Staffords rookie year they weren't very close (which you won't see often in ANY rookie season - save for Cam's last season), last year they didn't and only had Stafford for about 2 whole games - the Washington one, less than half of Chicago and a little over 3 quarters against NYJ. That's 2 in 5 years, not exactly a great ratio.

And it was pretty clear the Bucs quit on Morris rather early and that blame can't be placed on Freeman. They were a young team and many of their weapons weren't that good, and he still showed improvement in completion percentage and really just got hurt by throwing a few too many picks, which he'll have to work on but likely will go down with a decent completion %. It was just a poor situation with the man in charge and that was out of Freemans control. Now he's got some weapons (V-Jax, Clark) I'd expect him to bounce back.

Mark Sanchez has had more success in the NFL then every other QB drafted since 2006. He's won 4 postseason road games (2nd most all time, and he was a huge part of those games). That's more then all the QBs since then have had in the postseason. Mark Sanchez has 11 Game Winning Drives and 9 4th Quarter Comebacks (2 of which were in the postseason).

No he hasn't. Joe Flacco has 5 wins and a divisional title. Matt Ryan has 11 4QC and 16 GWD and a Pro Bowl appearance last season. So yeah, if you're going to post facts about him, at least make sure they're, y'know, factual.

 

[Stormtrooper]

I already addressed Stafford in the Sports Bar and how you're incredibly underrating what he did and how you aren't considering circumstances of his two injuries. And I know you were just using hyperbole, but it's not like any chump can throw for 4000 yards with Calvin there. They did his rookie year, but Mike Martz was the OC and that generally means more pass attempts which obviously increases your chance in doing so. They weren't even close in 0-16 season, Staffords rookie year they weren't very close (which you won't see often in ANY rookie season - save for Cam's last season), last year they didn't and only had Stafford for about 2 whole games - the Washington one, less than half of Chicago and a little over 3 quarters against NYJ. That's 2 in 5 years, not exactly a great ratio.

Mike Martz wasn't the OC in 2011, and Matt Stafford led the entire NFL in pass attempts. And yes, Matt Stafford was injured for 2 seasons and had 1 really good season. Lets say he's a great legendary QB that's much better then Drew Brees or Aaron Rodgers or Tom Brady. Tom Brady wasn't considered near where he was until he won multiple championships and had multiple great years. You're putting him on that level after 1 year, and 2 bust years.

And it was pretty clear the Bucs quit on Morris rather early and that blame can't be placed on Freeman. They were a young team and many of their weapons weren't that good, and he still showed improvement in completion percentage and really just got hurt by throwing a few too many picks, which he'll have to work on but likely will go down with a decent completion %. It was just a poor situation with the man in charge and that was out of Freemans control. Now he's got some weapons (V-Jax, Clark) I'd expect him to bounce back.

Just like anyone should expect Sanchez to bounce back given a new offense that won't hinder his development.

And Freeman was fucking shit last year. Worse then Sanchez by a mile, yet you claim he's better?

No he hasn't. Joe Flacco has 5 wins and a divisional title. Matt Ryan has 11 4QC and 16 GWD and a Pro Bowl appearance last season. So yeah, if you're going to post facts about him, at least make sure they're, y'know, factual.

Good for Flacco having a division title. Take Tom Fucking Brady out of the AFC East and the Jets have 3 division titles. He's not competing with a dynasty.

And I posted facts about Sanchez. And fine, Flacco has one more playoff win (a home game vs. Houston). That'll change after this season. Sanchez still has more road playoff wins then any QBs drafted since 2006 (tied with Flacco). And I never said anything about Matt Ryans numbers, so if you want to knock what I say, actually read what I say first. In 15 more starts, Ryan has 9 4th Quarter Comebacks and 5 GWDs. Give him one more year and Sanchez will surpass that. And none of those by Matt Ryan happened when it matters most, in the postseason. Sanchez has 2 4th Quarter Comebacks in the Playoffs.



Again, is Mark Sanchez a franchise QB? Not right now, since the only ones of those have rings on their fingers and have earned that right. Is he vastly underrated, and could he be one in the future? YES!

 

[Larry]

Not only do I not believe that Sanchez is a franchise quarterback, I think his days have been numbered ever since Tim Tebow showed up in New York. The fans aren't crazy about Sanchez by any means for reasons many noted above like his inconsistency. The Jets defense has definitely saved his ass a bit and helped make his job easier, and I don't know how long people are going to be okay with that. At some point they are going to expect him to really take the load and carry it like most franchise qb's can and do. Sanchez does not seem like the caliber of qb to take on that kind of load however, and I think before the season is out we'll see Tim Tebow starting and Sanchez on the bench. There is such a fanfare for Tebow I don't see any way around it. The fans in Denver were able to get him out there instead of Kyle Orton, and I don't think the New York fans will be any different.

 

[Davi323]

Of course he isn't. But as somone who absolutely despises Rex Ryan and the Jets, I hope they continue to believe he is, so I can continue to watch them fail. Sanchez is a halfway decent QB pretending to be the man. If he were the man, the Jets don't try to get Peyton Manning or trade for Tim Tebow. I can't think of many franchise QBs who backup is more famous than they are.

 

[CH David]

Good for Flacco having a division title. Take Tom Fucking Brady out of the AFC East and the Jets have 3 division titles. He's not competing with a dynasty.

Is this a joke? I mean really? When's the last time the Patriots won the Super Bowl? 2004? Joe Flacco isn't competing with the Pittsburgh Steelers? I can't understand how the current Patriots team can be considered a dynasty over the Steelers. This is some bullshit.

As far as Sanchez goes, not at the moment. He's got this year to really show if he can step up or step aside. Whether it be the offensive playcalls being inconsistent, the offensive scheme being meh, I won't blame him for the offensive failures, yet. He's gotta get it in gear though, otherwise he could lose his job.

 

[Megatron]

Mike Martz wasn't the OC in 2011, and Matt Stafford led the entire NFL in pass attempts. And yes, Matt Stafford was injured for 2 seasons and had 1 really good season. Lets say he's a great legendary QB that's much better then Drew Brees or Aaron Rodgers or Tom Brady. Tom Brady wasn't considered near where he was until he won multiple championships and had multiple great years. You're putting him on that level after 1 year, and 2 bust years.

And I know you were just using hyperbole, but it's not like any chump can throw for 4000 yards with Calvin there. They did his rookie year

Calvins rookie year I was referring to, not Staffords.

And I never said he was > or even = to Brady/Brees etc. Clearly he needs more time before we can pass that judgment. However, he's certainly shown he has the talent and ability to play at their level, which he did last season.

And Freeman was fucking shit last year. Worse then Sanchez by a mile, yet you claim he's better?

Because Freeman has at least shown some potential to be a very good QB. Let's not ignore his 25/6 TD/Int, 95 QBR, 61 comp %, 7.3 YPA season the year before. Sanchez has been mediocre at best all 3 seasons. Sanchez seems to just be there. Give me Freemans potential (since we've already seen he's had a great year) over Sanchez's mediocre consistency all the time.

Good for Flacco having a division title. Take Tom Fucking Brady out of the AFC East and the Jets have 3 division titles. He's not competing with a dynasty.

I didn't realize that the Steelers stopped playing football. You're just making excuses now.

And I posted facts about Sanchez. And fine, Flacco has one more playoff win (a home game vs. Houston). That'll change after this season. Sanchez still has more road playoff wins then any QBs drafted since 2006 (tied with Flacco). And I never said anything about Matt Ryans numbers, so if you want to knock what I say, actually read what I say first. In 15 more starts, Ryan has 9 4th Quarter Comebacks and 5 GWDs. Give him one more year and Sanchez will surpass that. And none of those by Matt Ryan happened when it matters most, in the postseason. Sanchez has 2 4th Quarter Comebacks in the Playoffs.

We don't even know if Sanchez will survive the season as a starter. With Tebow at backup we'll see if Sanchez steps up and plays above his competition. To make bold claims that he'll win playoff games this season when he's not the unquestioned starter like a Ryan, Flacco, etc. seems a bit egregious.

Again, is Mark Sanchez a franchise QB? Not right now, since the only ones of those have rings on their fingers and have earned that right. Is he vastly underrated, and could he be one in the future? YES!

Explain how he is underrated? Because he rode his defense and ball control offense to his first two years of playoff success? It's not like their scoring increased in the playoffs because of him (22.5 PPG in 6 games; Jets offense was just below that mark in 09 and just above it in 10). When you only have to put up 17 points to win (in 3 of their 4 playoff wins the Jets held their opponent to 16 points or less; the other they allowed 21), you won't nearly have as much difficulty.

So how's he underrated? He's been poor in the regular season, better in the postseason but was not the main reasons to their success - that falls on the defense. He plays about as well as he's ranked - in the mid 20s of QBs.

 

[Richard Blonoff]

At this point I am going to say no. I am willing to give him this year to see how he develops, its unfair to only give a guy three years, especially when you consider he only started one year in college. I've always felt that the Jets took him too high regardless though. When I think of a franchise QB, I think of guys who you could put on any team and they are still performing at or near expectations. Sanchez isn't a guy who I could see having success on multiple teams

I think when you look at his W-L record you see a good QB, but when you look at his individual stats he is fairly average. Tebow can be viewed in that same light, but thats beside the point. Ultimately I think he will end up as a guy like a Ryan Fitzpatrick or a Jason Campbell, a guy who isn't going to win you many games but he won't lose you many games either. I think when they run a simple offense and let their running game do its thing he performs better and more often than not when he is shouldered with the load he is exposed. You also can't blame a bad O-line for his inability to put up numbers. Ever since Rodgers took over for the Pack he has been running for his life, Rothlisgerger hasn't had the best O-line in Pittsburgh, the Colts had a subpar O-line after they won the Super Bowl and Manning still put up great numbers. There are teams on the list higher than the Jets with average QB production, BUF, TEN, OAK, BAL, WSH, CLE, all teams that don't exactly have a recent history of stellar QB play, and there are teams below the Jets with better pass numbers, look at Indy, GB, Hou, Pit, Chi. The line factors in but it isn't the sole factor

On a side note I think its time we quit calling the Pats a dynasty. I'm from Indiana, I dislike the Pats as much as anyone but they haven't won a Super Bowl since '04 and aside from the two losses to the Giants, they haven't made much of a splash in the playoffs, they haven't been as good a team as they were in the early part of the decade. They are still a good team but they aren't the unstoppable juggernaut they once were. And contrary to popular belief, they don't really draft well. They have a lot of guys they took high who didn't pan out, but when you find a gem like Brady in the 6th round you usually get a pass on such things.

 

[Fire Marshall Bill]

Mark Sanchez is a franchise quarterback the way Brad Johnson and Kyle Boller are. Sure he might pull a Super Bowl out of his ass, but it'll be mostly due to a stellar defense and a solid running game.

He's not accurate enough, and when crunch time comes along he makes bad choices. Stick to those safe passes buddy.

Frankly, this coming season for the Jets is going to be very interesting.

 

[PlayTheGame]

I've stated on numerous occassions that Sanchez is not a franchise guy, as he's simply incapable to fill the roll. He's just not good enough. He's going into Year 4, so he's been around for some time, and he's only been able to show flashes here and there. There's been no sense of consistency for Sanchez throughout his whole career. I doubt it's coming anytime soon, although I'm sure his apologists will say that it'll come ... eventually. You need consistency as a franchise player, it's maybe the most important thing, but Sanchez has never had anything close to it. You never know what you're going to get with him. He could have a decent day, and then next game he'll have 4 picks. You can't have your franchise tied to a guy like that, at least not for very long.

Why the Jets gave him that gaudy extension is beyond me. It's quite possibly the least-deserved extension I've ever seen in the NFL. Make no mistake: Sanchez didn't lead the Jets to two AFC Championship games, the D did. And when the D was no good last year, a third-year Sanchez couldn't get the job done to even get them to the playoffs. So he was good enough to get them there as a rookie and sophomore, but not as a third-year (more experienced) guy? Oh wait, that's all moot, it was the D that got them there, with Sanchez trying not to mess it up.

If Sanchez didn't have those 2 AFC title appearances (somehow) under his belt, he might already be gone from NY. But since Revis and the gang carried his ass to those games, he's gotten a bit of a pass. But now, the tide's finally beginning to change and more and more people are coming around and seeing him for what he truly is- a decent QB at best who is inconsistent and unworthy to lead a franchise.

And the Jets' organization's patience is obviously beginning to wear thin. Despite the extension, the Jets have signed Tim Tebow. You don't bring that circus to town unless you plan on using him quite extensively. If you think the Jets will be content with Tebow running a few plays a game (a la Brad Smith), then you are crazy and obviously don't comprehend what bringing in Tebow really means. If they wanted a quiet Wildcat guy, they'd GET a quiet Wildcat guy. Instead, they got the Tebow circus. Why? Because they think that even Tebow and all the shit that comes with him has the potential to be worth more than Sanchez. Don't believe me? Well, if the Jets were truly satisfied with Sanchez, then they wouldn't have pubicly joined the Peyton Manning sweepstakes as fiercely and as openly as they did. And once that blew up in their face, they settled with Tebow. You don't bring Tebow in to be a quiet, background, 2nd-string, Wildcat guy. He won't let you, and everyone knows that. The organization can say anything they want to (they have to in order to maintain order), anyone who knows anything about football can see the truth- Tebow's there to challenge Sanchez, and will probably overtake him, because that's what Tebow does. Tebow overtook Kyle Orton. Kyle Orton, at worst, is on the same level as Sanchez. Why won't Tebow do it again here? He will.

Mark Sanchez is not a franchise player. Never has been, never will. Borderline draft bust for how high they took him.

 

[Stormtrooper]

I've stated on numerous occassions that Sanchez is not a franchise guy, as he's simply incapable to fill the roll. He's just not good enough. He's going into Year 4, so he's been around for some time, and he's only been able to show flashes here and there. There's been no sense of consistency for Sanchez throughout his whole career. I doubt it's coming anytime soon, although I'm sure his apologists will say that it'll come ... eventually. You need consistency as a franchise player, it's maybe the most important thing, but Sanchez has never had anything close to it. You never know what you're going to get with him. He could have a decent day, and then next game he'll have 4 picks. You can't have your franchise tied to a guy like that, at least not for very long.

The exact same thing can be said for Matt Stafford or any other QB not named Manning, Brady, Brees, and Rodgers. You don't know what you'll get. One week he can throw 5 TDs, the next week he could separate his shoulder falling to the turf.

Why the Jets gave him that gaudy extension is beyond me. It's quite possibly the least-deserved extension I've ever seen in the NFL. Make no mistake: Sanchez didn't lead the Jets to two AFC Championship games, the D did. And when the D was no good last year, a third-year Sanchez couldn't get the job done to even get them to the playoffs. So he was good enough to get them there as a rookie and sophomore, but not as a third-year (more experienced) guy? Oh wait, that's all moot, it was the D that got them there, with Sanchez trying not to mess it up.

This is the stupidest thing I've seen in this thread.

The Mark Sanchez extension was a brilliant move by the Jets. They gave him a few million more guaranteed money then he already had due (they split the guaranteed money over 2012 and 2013, instead of all of it in 2012), and have 3 years of roster bonuses after that. If he doesn't perform, they end up not owing him a cent after 2013. If he does pan out they have a QB at a very friendly rate for the next 3 years.


And the D helped, but his play in the postseason has been great, so it's not like he's being dragged along.

If Sanchez didn't have those 2 AFC title appearances (somehow) under his belt, he might already be gone from NY. But since Revis and the gang carried his ass to those games, he's gotten a bit of a pass. But now, the tide's finally beginning to change and more and more people are coming around and seeing him for what he truly is- a decent QB at best who is inconsistent and unworthy to lead a franchise.

No, he wouldn't at all be gone, as he has a ton of guaranteed money due him for this season.

And the Jets' organization's patience is obviously beginning to wear thin. Despite the extension, the Jets have signed Tim Tebow. You don't bring that circus to town unless you plan on using him quite extensively. If you think the Jets will be content with Tebow running a few plays a game (a la Brad Smith), then you are crazy and obviously don't comprehend what bringing in Tebow really means. If they wanted a quiet Wildcat guy, they'd GET a quiet Wildcat guy. Instead, they got the Tebow circus. Why? Because they think that even Tebow and all the shit that comes with him has the potential to be worth more than Sanchez. Don't believe me? Well, if the Jets were truly satisfied with Sanchez, then they wouldn't have pubicly joined the Peyton Manning sweepstakes as fiercely and as openly as they did. And once that blew up in their face, they settled with Tebow. You don't bring Tebow in to be a quiet, background, 2nd-string, Wildcat guy. He won't let you, and everyone knows that. The organization can say anything they want to (they have to in order to maintain order), anyone who knows anything about football can see the truth- Tebow's there to challenge Sanchez, and will probably overtake him, because that's what Tebow does. Tebow overtook Kyle Orton. Kyle Orton, at worst, is on the same level as Sanchez. Why won't Tebow do it again here? He will.

Actually, Kyle Orton at his best is on the same level as Sanchez, and Kyle Orton was at his worst in 2011, and Tebow only got the starting role because the franchise sold Tebow to the fanbase as the Franchise QB.

And you bring Tebow in because you want to have a backup QB that can challenge Sanchez (Mark Brunell can't, neither could Drew Stanton). They also brought him in because they know his ability as a pure passer is sub-par, so bringing him in means Sanchez gets challenged, but Sanchez out-performs (which he would on the field rather easily). Kinda a good move, especially since Tebow is still an excellent option as a Wildcat QB (which, yes, that's what he is for the Jets, a Wildcat QB/Backup QB). Tebow will get his 5-10 plays a week (Wildcat and Special Teams), and Sanchez will still be the starting QB.

Mark Sanchez is not a franchise player. Never has been, never will. Borderline draft bust for how high they took him.

If you're the time traveler that you say you are, can you give me the lotto numbers for Powerball the next time it gets to $300 Million? Thanks.

 

[PlayTheGame]

I stand by everything I said. It's quite clear you are very biased, seeing as you live in NY and are pulling for Sanchez to be your guy, because him not being your guy would put the Jets back. Also, career-wise, Kyle Orton has statistically been a better QB than Sanchez by far, especially when you take into account Orton's bounced around between systems and Sanchez has had the luxury of clinging to one system that doesn't ask him to do that much. Sanchez's time as a starter is ticking, and everyone but you seems to see it. Unless you think everyone's wrong and you are right.

 

[Owen 3:16 says I just stole your Slammy!!]

No, I do not think that Mark Sanchez is a franchise QB. He is not that very good under pressure. When the Jets are winning by 20, He makes throws. When the Jets are losing by 20, He rushes his throws and makes bad decisions. Maybe, he will improve by age.

 

[Stormtrooper]

I stand by everything I said. It's quite clear you are very biased, seeing as you live in NY and are pulling for Sanchez to be your guy, because him not being your guy would put the Jets back. Also, career-wise, Kyle Orton has statistically been a better QB than Sanchez by far, especially when you take into account Orton's bounced around between systems and Sanchez has had the luxury of clinging to one system that doesn't ask him to do that much. Sanchez's time as a starter is ticking, and everyone but you seems to see it. Unless you think everyone's wrong and you are right.

First of all, to stand by everything you said, you stand by the utter lie that Sanchez got a lucrative extension, which as already stated is ludicrous. So clearly you are wrong already, since no sane person would stand by something that is proven to be wrong using facts and logic (instead of hyperbole and what-ifs).

And Sanchez would be better off bouncing between systems then being in a very QB unfriendly system that the Jets had, where the run was heavily favored and didn't allow Sanchez to get into any sort of a rhythm.


And you want to hear something rather ironic? Eli Manning was in the same situation after 3 seasons. He was on his way out in New York due to a lack of success. Then in his fourth year, his team backed into the playoffs, his D was dominant in said playoffs, the refs didn't blow the whistle when multiple defenders had a hold of him, and he became a franchise QB.


It's not at all inconceivable that Sanchez turns it around. The man is a talented quarterback, and he's only 25 years old. Conversely, Manning was in his age 26 season when he won the Super Bowl (he turned 27 during the season). The Chargers had to give up on Drew Brees due to his ineffectiveness by drafting Phil Rivers 4th overall (OK, they drafted Eli and traded for Rivers, but same thing), and Brees didn't make it to a pro bowl until his age 25 season, nor did he become as good as he is now until he got to New Orleans. Hell, Ben Roethlisberger did not make a pro bowl until Age 25, either (his defense and shoddy officiating already won him a Super Bowl by then).

Am I saying Sanchez is ON those guys level? Of course not, and no I don't think he's a franchise QB. But to say he can't do it is just ridiculous, because most of the franchise QBs had to actually earn said distinction, and they did it when they were older/later in their careers then Sanchez.

 

[PlayTheGame]

You are still ignoring the opinions of virtually everyone in this thread. And the fact that you're being a NY Jet/Sanchez apologist. Which is fine, it's your team, I get it. You can keep thinking Sanchez is the guy if you want and you can be a fan, I have no problem with that.

But to paint my feelings on the matter (along with everyone else's, and pretty much the general consensus) as being fallacious overall, that's where you lose everyone in your argument. Because you really don't have one. That's all well and good about Eli Manning. But guess what? He's not Sanchez. And Sanchez is not him. To think Sanchez is even comparable to Manning is laughable. Besides the fact that Manning posted better early-career numbers than did Sanchez, Sanchez has had all-star caliber receivers throughout his early career, and has hardly been able to keep his TD-to-INT ratio positive. And now he's going into his 4th year. If you want a QB with that kind of statistic behind him, be my guest. But no one else in the league would, and that is why outsiders can clearly see that Sanchez is not NY's guy for much longer, nor anyone's.

 

[Stormtrooper]

You are still ignoring the opinions of virtually everyone in this thread. And the fact that you're being a NY Jet/Sanchez apologist. Which is fine, it's your team, I get it. You can keep thinking Sanchez is the guy if you want and you can be a fan, I have no problem with that.

Exactly, I'm ignoring the OPINIONS of biased people who have hated on Sanchez at USC and have hated the Jets since before they were born. Sorry if I don't like biases.

But to paint my feelings on the matter (along with everyone else's, and pretty much the general consensus) as being fallacious overall, that's where you lose everyone in your argument. Because you really don't have one.

I didn't say they were all fallacious. I said you saying that he got a lucrative contract extension was fallacious because, well, it's fallacious. My entire argument has been that you can't write the guy off, nor can you say he has been terrible. He has been inconsistent, but there have been PLENTY of good games to go with the bad ones.

That's all well and good about Eli Manning. But guess what? He's not Sanchez. And Sanchez is not him. To think Sanchez is even comparable to Manning is laughable. Besides the fact that Manning posted better early-career numbers than did Sanchez, Sanchez has had all-star caliber receivers throughout his early career, and has hardly been able to keep his TD-to-INT ratio positive. And now he's going into his 4th year. If you want a QB with that kind of statistic behind him, be my guest. But no one else in the league would, and that is why outsiders can clearly see that Sanchez is not NY's guy for much longer, nor anyone's.

1. I never said Eli was Sanchez. I just pointed out that it's not inconceivable for starting QBs to start playing better football after a few years. Drew Brees is a perfect example. Hell, so is Aaron Rodgers (albeit he was on the bench for a while).

2. Plaxico Burress with the Giants >>>>>> the Jet receivers in 2009 and 2011. It's not even close. WAY better then 2009 starters Jerricho Cotchery/Chansi Stuckey/Braylon Edwards (who arrived mid-season, which is nearly impossible for a receiver to get acclimated to the new team/QB). WAAAAY better then 2011 starters Santonio Holmes off year/2011 Plaxico Burress. I'll give you the 2010 Jets, as Holmes had a career year and Braylon was very good too.

Combined pro bowls of Jets WRs from 2009-present? 0

Combined career Pro Bowls for Braylon Edwards/Santonio Holmes (the "All-star caliber WRs Sanchez had in his early career)? 1, Braylon Edwards, 2.5 years before joining the Jets.

3. Mark Sanchez TD-INT ratio in 2010 and 2011: 43-31. I'd hardly say he's "trying to keep his ratio positive." His rookie year he had a terrible ratio, (thanks to never getting the chance to throw for TDs) and that skews his total number. After that he's +12. I'll take that. It's not perfect, but it's good.

Oh, and Eli twice led the NFL in interceptions (2007 and 2010, so don't act like he doesn't throw picks). Mark Sanchez never did that.


Who's lying here? You.


There is virtually no evidence to support a claim that Mark Sanchez can't become a franchise QB. The only way to find such evidence is if you have a DeLorean that, when moving at 88 MPH while sending 1.21 Gigawatts into a Flux Capacitor, allows you to time travel to a selected date. If you can select a date 5 years in the future, and bring back news bulletins and stat-sheets showing that Sanchez had in fact been a failure, then I'd believe you, but until then you have provided zero proof of your claims.

 

[PlayTheGame]

Exactly, I'm ignoring the OPINIONS of biased people who have hated on Sanchez at USC and have hated the Jets since before they were born. Sorry if I don't like biases.

How can you possibly know everyone's biased against him in this thread? Isn't it possible that numerous people that've responded against Sanchez are perfectly reasonable and objective? Or are you still going on with that notion that everyone else is completely wrong?

I didn't say they were all fallacious. I said you saying that he got a lucrative contract extension was fallacious because, well, it's fallacious. My entire argument has been that you can't write the guy off, nor can you say he has been terrible. He has been inconsistent, but there have been PLENTY of good games to go with the bad ones.

Sanchez didn't deserve that contract extension. He failed to even get his team to the playoffs. He's lucky to be a in a division that features the Bills and Dolphins, two largely unsuccessful teams that allowed the Jets' average-at-best record of 2011 look much better, as the Jets managed 2nd place in the division. Imagine if he were in a more competitive division- he and Jets wouldn't be looking so hot. Let's not forget they got swept by the winner of said division, the Pats, this past year. The Jets took a clear step back and he got an extension. He had an average year at best. Why exactly does he deserve it so much? And I'd argue he's had far more bad to sub-par games that he's known for than good ones. Ask anyone that.

1. I never said Eli was Sanchez. I just pointed out that it's not inconceivable for starting QBs to start playing better football after a few years. Drew Brees is a perfect example. Hell, so is Aaron Rodgers (albeit he was on the bench for a while).

Brees is not a perfect example. He was plagued with injury, limiting his upside for some time. Aaron Rodgers is a horrible example, as you pointed out, because he wasn't on the field. Sanchez (unfortunately) was on the field, and looks shitty more often than not. He's gone from terrible in his first year to marginally good every once in a while. Still not great, and still not franchise material. Again, just because other's blossomed doesn't mean he can or will. He hasn't impressed, he's looked overwhelmed. Any flashes he shows are merely that- flashes. He's now in his 4th year. How much longer shall we wait? 5, 6, 7 years into his career?

2. Plaxico Burress with the Giants >>>>>> the Jet receivers in 2009 and 2011. It's not even close. WAY better then 2009 starters Jerricho Cotchery/Chansi Stuckey/Braylon Edwards (who arrived mid-season, which is nearly impossible for a receiver to get acclimated to the new team/QB). WAAAAY better then 2011 starters Santonio Holmes off year/2011 Plaxico Burress. I'll give you the 2010 Jets, as Holmes had a career year and Braylon was very good too.

Combined pro bowls of Jets WRs from 2009-present? 0

Combined career Pro Bowls for Braylon Edwards/Santonio Holmes (the "All-star caliber WRs Sanchez had in his early career)? 1, Braylon Edwards, 2.5 years before joining the Jets.

He has still had far above average talent around him for the majority of his career at WR. Other guys do much more with less, that's just a fact. Let's not forget his stellar rungame in that first year that allowed his playaction to work, so don't discounr that time. He's had a stellar offense around him (O-Line is great), and he's the weak link. It's been made very clear over the years.

3. Mark Sanchez TD-INT ratio in 2010 and 2011: 43-31. I'd hardly say he's "trying to keep his ratio positive." His rookie year he had a terrible ratio, (thanks to never getting the chance to throw for TDs) and that skews his total number. After that he's +12. I'll take that. It's not perfect, but it's good.

Oh, and Eli twice led the NFL in interceptions (2007 and 2010, so don't act like he doesn't throw picks). Mark Sanchez never did that.

Um, actually his career TD-to-INT ratio is 55-51 (I'd say that's barely keeping it positive). But you just threw out his first year because, you know, "He was young" and that year didn't work for your argument. You can't just throw that year out. It's 1/3 of his pitiful career so far.

Again, anyone with eyeballs that watches Giants & Jets games is laughing right now at you comparing the skill of Eli and Sanchez by trying to spin numbers. Eli's led the league in picks... also won 2 superbowls/2 superbowl MVPs. That tidbit of info clearly demonstrates the difference between the two.

Who's lying here? You.

Yes, I'm sure everyone reading this thread is seeing right through my visceral lies.

There is virtually no evidence to support a claim that Mark Sanchez can't become a franchise QB. The only way to find such evidence is if you have a DeLorean that, when moving at 88 MPH while sending 1.21 Gigawatts into a Flux Capacitor, allows you to time travel to a selected date. If you can select a date 5 years in the future, and bring back news bulletins and stat-sheets showing that Sanchez had in fact been a failure, then I'd believe you, but until then you have provided zero proof of your claims.

That bolded sentence is especially laughable. Besides the numerous statistics and failures of Sanchez, the blow games, the INTs in big situations, etc etc, there's also the little thing of just watching the games. And if you do that (objectively) you can see that Sanchez looks more like Blaine Gabbert than, say, a franchise guy of Drew Brees or Tom Brady. THOSE are franchise guys. Not Blaine Gabbert. Not Mark Sanchez. The sooner the Jets realize that, the better. And maybe they are starting to with the hiring of Tebow. Because I can promise you that if they were truly confident, they'd hire a much quieter wildcat guy if they needed one so badly. They went with Tebow for a reason. To CHALLENGE Sanchez for the job. A challenge he will probably win, because he's slightly less shittier overall due to the fact that he can make plays with his legs.

As for "proof".. well, you have none either to say he can be a franchise guy.

All we have is his first years in the league which have shown to be underwhelming for the guy. Most of your argument is based on his "potential to get there". You're the one grasping at straws, whether you realize it or not. I'm basing my argument on watching him struggle more often than not in games and so far not have a successful career as a singular player so far. You're saying, "yeah, but he'll improve". Well, he's not there yet, and I don't see it happening. He's going to be 26, he's in his 4th year, and he still hasn't put it together. He's not a franchise guy that the Jets can rely on to win them big-time games and win them championships.

I'll say it again: franchise guys are guys like Brees, Brady, Rivers, Rodgers, the Mannings, etc.

If you really somehow think Mark Sanchez's name deserves to be with those guys' names as the Jets' franchise guy, then I truly feel bad for the Jets. Because we are in a golden-age of QB's right now, and a Jets Franchise QB needs to be better than a Mark Sanchez in order to stay in the same league and compete with the QB's of the elite teams.

Sanchez is not a Franchise guy. They wanted him to be their guy, but so far he's proven that he can't cut it. A fact anyone can and will tell you, as evidenced by the poll of 17-1 in this thread affirming he is not a franchise guy.

 

[KNPKH2ster]

I'm a Jets fan, but I'll say that it's still early to tell whether Sanchez is the franchise QB. Its not guarantee that this will happen, but if the Jets do win a Super Bowl with Sanchez as starting QB, I can say he won't be Super Bowl MVP. The MVP title would most likely go to Revis, should this event occur.

 

[Mustang Sally]

.... but if the Jets do win a Super Bowl with Sanchez as starting QB, I can say he won't be Super Bowl MVP. The MVP title would most likely go to Revis, should this event occur.

Maybe Revis would win MVP for the Super Bowl season, but how can you know he'll win the award for the one game itself? Whomever has the best game in the Super Bowl is the guy who wins MVP, no?

Of course, all this applies only in the unlikely event the Jets win the Super Bowl.

Damn dog-ass Jets.