Int Region, Toronto Subregion, First Round:(14)Jushin Thunder Liger vs(19)Sid Vicious

[klunderbunker]

This is a first round match in the International Region, Toronto Subregion. It is a standard one on one match held under International Rules, meaning the match is held under the standard rules of the country the match is held in. It will be held at the Air Canada Center in Toronto, Ontario, Canada.

#14. Jushin Thunder Liger

Vs.

#19. Sid Vicious

​

Polls will be open for three days following a one day period for discussion. Voting will be based on who you feel is the greater of the two competitors. Post your reasons for why your pick should win below. Remember that this is non-spam and the most votes in the poll win. Any ties will be broken by the amount of posts of support for each candidate, with one vote per poster.

Also remember that this is a non-spam forum. If you post a response without giving a reason for your selection, it will be penalized for spam and deleted.

 

[SSJPhenom]

Bad draw for Jushin Thunder Liger.

Liger was one of the absolute greatest light weights of all time. I mean the man was amazing to watch in the ring, however, what can he do to Sid?

I see Sid taking this one at about the 5 minute mark. Liger will try to stay away from Sid, but once Sid get's a hold of him, it's over with.

 

[Brewski]

Jushin Liger is one of the most accomplished junior heavyweight wrestlers in the world and is incredibly agile and skilled. He keeps up with other lightweight wrestlers around the world even to this day. 11 time IWGP junior champion, thats crazy! He's a huge influence on the japanese junior and mexican lucha scenes and wrestling wouldn't be the same without him.

Sycho Sid Vicious/Justice is incredibly over rated. This is a towering guy that was given title runs in both WWF and WCW based purely on his physique. He's a boring wrestler and a weird looking dude. Frankly, his accomplishments don't touch close to Liger's. He is a shit ton bigger and stronger than Thunder but is no where near as skilled.

It's the international bracket in an worldly city like Toronto so there is no advantage toward power wrestling. Jushin Liger upsets Sid with a pinfall.

 

[Thriller Ant]

Bad draw for Jushin Thunder Liger.

Liger was one of the absolute greatest light weights of all time. I mean the man was amazing to watch in the ring, however, what can he do to Sid?

I see Sid taking this one at about the 5 minute mark. Liger will try to stay away from Sid, but once Sid get's a hold of him, it's over with.

He can do a lot to Sid. He has the Rolling Koppu Kick, Shotei (palm thrust), Air Scissors Drop and he invented the Shooting Star Press. Liger had a lot more power than he is given credit for, I mean, one of his finishing moves is a running sitout powerbomb. If fact, he's pretty comparably sized to Shawn Michaels, who has multiple victories over Sid.

 

[AhSpicyDrop]

Sycho Sid Vicious/Justice is incredibly over rated. This is a towering guy that was given title runs in both WWF and WCW based purely on his physique. He's a boring wrestler and a weird looking dude. Frankly, his accomplishments don't touch close to Liger's. He is a shit ton bigger and stronger than Thunder but is no where near as skilled.

By your logic then Liger should win this entire tournament because there's very few people that can work like him. But the problem is Liger is a small guy in a tournament full of giants and former world class champions. As "overrated" as Sid may be, he still captured the World titles in the two biggest organizations in North America, and was never booked below upper midcard.

I was never bored by Sid in the ring, and he was more than capable of having a good match. He had plenty of them throughout his career. Watch some of his matches from WCW with Chris Benoit, they're really good matches. He had good matches with HBK, Vader, Sting, Flair, Pillman... I can go on and on... And while Liger certainly had better matches he was meant to because that was his claim to fame; being a workhorse. But unfortunately for you there's a lot more that goes into pro wrestling than having good matches. Sid had an amazing look, followed his gimmick to a T, and was believable as a champion when he held the belts.

You made me laugh hysterically whenever you said his accomplishments don't come close to Liger's...

-2 Time WCW World Champion, 2 Time WWF World Champion versus Multi-time Junior weight champion? You're stupid if you think Liger's accomplishments outrank Sid's.

It's the international bracket in an worldly city like Toronto so there is no advantage toward power wrestling. Jushin Liger upsets Sid with a pinfall.

I don't care if this match is smack dab in the middle of the busy streets of Japan, Sid Vicious would not be booked to lose against a junior heavyweight, whether he's considered a God in that department or not. Anywhere this match takes place Sid is walking away the winner with a Powerbomb or a Chokeslam... Hell, he could probably knock Liger unconscious with a big boot as he was spring boarding for an aerial attack.

You're letting your hatred of Sid allow your brain to lose sight of logic. Stop it.

 

[SSJPhenom]

He can do a lot to Sid. He has the Rolling Koppu Kick, Shotei (palm thrust), Air Scissors Drop and he invented the Shooting Star Press. Liger had a lot more power than he is given credit for, I mean, one of his finishing moves is a running sitout powerbomb. If fact, he's pretty comparably sized to Shawn Michaels, who has multiple victories over Sid.

Shawn Michaels was booked strongly against Sid because at the time, HBK was one of the top guys in the WWE.

Liger has never been anything higher than a Junior Heavyweight Champion. While Sid on the other hand has been a 2 time WCW World Heavyweight Champion and a 2 time WWE Champion. Sid was also in the main event of the biggest wrestling event of the year against arguably the greatest big man in history(The Undertaker) and he was booked very strongly in that match.

I just can't envision Liger being booked strongly against Sid. Sid goes over.

 

[Brewski]

You made me laugh hysterically whenever you said his accomplishments don't come close to Liger's...

-2 Time WCW World Champion, 2 Time WWF World Champion versus Multi-time Junior weight champion? You're stupid if you think Liger's accomplishments outrank Sid's.

Are you kidding me? NJPW/IWGP has weight classes, the Junior title is just as important as the heavyweight. Liger is an ELEVEN time Junior title holder. Let me put this in perspective for you. Since it's inception in 1986 the IWGP Junior title has changed hands 66 times. To compare we can look at the WWE title that since 1986 has changed hands 101 times! One hundred and one! Liger held the junior title 11 times which is 7 times more than the next guy, nearly triple in fact. They don't hand the belt out like candy.

I'm not saying that the junior title is on equal level with the WWE or WCW title because it's not. But being an 11 time champion definitely puts you up there.

Get your head out of your ethnocentric ass. Wrestling is big in Japan too.

You're letting your hatred of Sid allow your brain to lose sight of logic. Stop it.

You're right, I hate Sid. I'm totally biased but that doesn't make me wrong.

 

[AhSpicyDrop]

I'm not saying that the junior title is on equal level with the WWE or WCW title because it's not. But being an 11 time champion definitely puts you up there.

Get your head out of your ethnocentric ass. Wrestling is big in Japan too.

But you didn't say it puts him up there, you said Liger's accomplishments essentially dwarfed Sid's... Sure, Liger has some serious clout when it comes to the Japanese wrestling scene... But weight classes, or not, Liger never accomplished anything but the Junior title. And a junior title, regardless of prestige, is never going to be viewed the same as a Heavyweight title.

Just to ruffle your feathers a bit more... Liger was booked poorly when he came over to the States, his biggest wins being over Pillman, and teaming with Pillman. He got his ass kicked by Juventud Guerrera for the Junior title that embarrassed NJPW so badly that they didn't even acknowledge it. He lost to Samoa Joe. Hell, I'm pretty sure several North American stars actually beat him in his own country.

If Samoa Joe beats his ass, and he's far less accomplished than Sid, then how does Liger beat Sid?

At the end of the day Liger was booked poorly in America, but was something of a big deal in Japan. I would bet my hat that if Sid went to Japan they would book him exactly as he was everywhere else; a bad ass.

You're right, I hate Sid. I'm totally biased but that doesn't make me wrong.

No, it doesn't make you wrong. But it does make you an idiot for trying to sabotage a tournament match based on personal feelings instead of logic. I hate John Cena more than anybody on these forums I would wager but I'm not going to stupidly pick Iron Sheik to go over him... And neither should you pick Liger to go over Sid.

 

[Bernkastel]

Are you kidding me? NJPW/IWGP has weight classes, the Junior title is just as important as the heavyweight. Liger is an ELEVEN time Junior title holder. Let me put this in perspective for you. Since it's inception in 1986 the IWGP Junior title has changed hands 66 times. To compare we can look at the WWE title that since 1986 has changed hands 101 times! One hundred and one! Liger held the junior title 11 times which is 7 times more than the next guy, nearly triple in fact. They don't hand the belt out like candy.

I'm not saying that the junior title is on equal level with the WWE or WCW title because it's not. But being an 11 time champion definitely puts you up there.

Liger was arguably the greatest junior heavyweight that NJPW ever had, and even though there have been some real stinkers to hold the IWGP heavyweight title, there have been some huge names as well. Are you seriously going to tell me that Liger is the same caliber of wrestler as Inoki, Vader, Great Muta, Brock Lesnar or Hulk Hogan - who won the title unofficially? Of course not.

That goes back to the premise that smaller guys have always been traditionally inferior to the bigger guys no matter what the promotion. Some of them have managed to break that glass ceiling, but they have the reputation and the resume to back that up. Liger does not, he has more losses against the top drawing heavyweights than he does wins.

SpicyDrop is more than justified in his vote for Sid, and his logic probably has less to do with title prestige, and more to do with the fact that Liger was more of a jobber to the top drawing heavyweights.

 

[PsychoBlack]

I think Liger gets this one here. Sid was big and strong but he was also slow and clumsy. Liger would run circles around this guy h=getting a shot here and a shot there. If Sid does manage to grab him his offensive move set gives some easy counters for a guy like Liger. I have to go with Liger here It's not that he's to fast or that his move set was so dangerous it's that Sid's offense can benefit him

 

[Brewski]

But you didn't say it puts him up there, you said Liger's accomplishments essentially dwarfed Sid's.

You're right they do. By prestige and by numbers alone. 11 time IWGP junior champ, 6 time IWGP junior tag champ, NWA World Junior champ, NWA World welterweight champ, WWF Light heavyweight champ, WCW light heavyweight champ, 2010 CMLL tournament winner, and a shit ton of others.

Just to ruffle your feathers a bit more... Liger was booked poorly when he came over to the States, his biggest wins being over Pillman, and teaming with Pillman. He got his ass kicked by Juventud Guerrera for the Junior title that embarrassed NJPW so badly that they didn't even acknowledge it. He lost to Samoa Joe. Hell, I'm pretty sure several North American stars actually beat him in his own country.

If Samoa Joe beats his ass, and he's far less accomplished than Sid, then how does Liger beat Sid?

Oh course he was booked poorly in the US he never had a long term contract. Look how sporadic his matches were in the U.S. There was never really a chance for him to have long term success. You talk about him losing to Joe(who's no slouch mind you) but that was at a one time appearance at Bound for Glory 05. No shit he'll be booked to lose to TNA's next big star on a part time contract. Let alone that by 05 he's out of his prime, the man has been wrestling since 1984. Then again, the fact that he's had TEN TIMES as many matches as sid should speak for itself as how long this guy's prime was.

But if you want to play it that way then Liger is 3-0 against Benoit in 90, 95, and 99. Seeing as Chris (who btw is 8 inches shorter and at the time was much much less muscular) split matches with Sid in WCW that must put Liger on equal, if not higher stature than Sid no?

Unless you're calling Chris Benoit a scrub.

No, it doesn't make you wrong. But it does make you an idiot for trying to sabotage a tournament match based on personal feelings instead of logic. I hate John Cena more than anybody on these forums I would wager but I'm not going to stupidly pick Iron Sheik to go over him... And neither should you pick Liger to go over Sid.

Sabotage? No. That's not what im doing. There are wrestlers that I hate and love and I'll admit I am biased here but you're making it sound like Jushin Liger doesn't have a chance here.

Look at the seeding. Who's higher? Liger by 5 spots. It doesn't end there PWI(which if you're unaware ranks wrestlers by kayfabe rankings) has ranked Liger #12 all time in 2003 and sid was way down at 122. Thats not an end all be all ranking because that would defeat the point of this tournament but it is something to consider. I'm not the only one rooting for Jushin here.

 

[Brewski]

Liger was arguably the greatest junior heavyweight that NJPW ever had, and even though there have been some real stinkers to hold the IWGP heavyweight title, there have been some huge names as well. Are you seriously going to tell me that Liger is the same caliber of wrestler as Inoki, Vader, Great Muta, Brock Lesnar or Hulk Hogan - who won the title unofficially? Of course not.

That goes back to the premise that smaller guys have always been traditionally inferior to the bigger guys no matter what the promotion. Some of them have managed to break that glass ceiling, but they have the reputation and the resume to back that up. Liger does not, he has more losses against the top drawing heavyweights than he does wins.

SpicyDrop is more than justified in his vote for Sid, and his logic probably has less to do with title prestige, and more to do with the fact that Liger was more of a jobber to the top drawing heavyweights.

No you're right that i'm basing my argument of title prestige and no I don't hold him in the same regard as an Inoki or Hogan. Sid out powers Jushin clearly but I think his quickness, technical skill, and hard striking abilities wear the giant down. I'm not saying he dominates this match but I think in a long match he has the advantage.

 

[AhSpicyDrop]

You're right they do. By prestige and by numbers alone. 11 time IWGP junior champ, 6 time IWGP junior tag champ, NWA World Junior champ, NWA World welterweight champ, WWF Light heavyweight champ, WCW light heavyweight champ, 2010 CMLL tournament winner, and a shit ton of others.

All I see throughout that is a bunch of Lightweights/Juniors/Welterweights... I'm not seeing any Heavyweights... And no matter how much you want it to be so the smaller weight class titles will NEVER be on par with heavyweight titles... it doesn't matter how many times he held it, or how long he held it...

What I want to see is you dig up some fucking dirt showing me how Liger performed against guys that were bigger than him, especially a guy the size of Sid. The only people I've seen Liger face personally that are bigger than him are Randy Savage and Samoa Joe, and he got his ass kicked by both of them... So what is supposed to make me believe that a guy standing near 7 feet tall should be worried about a guy that stands 5'7"?

If you want to introduce the Benoit argument then Pillman beat Liger too, and Sid dominated the shit out of Pillman, including nearly breaking his neck during War Games with a powerbomb... Sid has wins over a who's who of wrestlers, people that Liger couldn't even have a wet dream of beating. It all amounts to this... I've seen Sid wipe the floor with cruiserweights, but I've never seen Liger beat a giant like Sid.

 

[Bernkastel]

No you're right that i'm basing my argument of title prestige and no I don't hold him in the same regard as an Inoki or Hogan. Sid out powers Jushin clearly but I think his quickness, technical skill, and hard striking abilities wear the giant down. I'm not saying he dominates this match but I think in a long match he has the advantage.

So why are you arguing for Liger to go over a bigger man that, at one point, was the top heavyweight in one of the biggest promotions in the world? You could argue that Sid was beaten by the little guys, but then you'd be placing Liger on the same level as Hart and Michaels, which is ******ed.

They were small guys that broke that glass ceiling with the reputation and the resume against big guys, while Liger got his ass kicked by Muta. Someone like Vader or Inoki would have whipped the fuck out of Liger, and Sid would too.

Title prestige doesn't mean anything when it's clearly shown, even in New Japan, that juniors weren't the draws that the heavyweights were.

 

[Brewski]

What I want to see is you dig up some fucking dirt showing me how Liger performed against guys that were bigger than him, especially a guy the size of Sid. The only people I've seen Liger face personally that are bigger than him are Randy Savage and Samoa Joe, and he got his ass kicked by both of them... So what is supposed to make me believe that a guy standing near 7 feet tall should be worried about a guy that stands 5'7"?

I'll admit he never faced a seven footer but he has beat prominent Japanese heavyweights in Nishimura, Satoshi Kojima, Kazuchika Okada, and Hector Garza. No they're not the biggest names in the world but it at least proves he can hang in their class. He beat Daniel Bryan, Chris Benoit, Chris Jericho, and Eddie Guerrero who all went on to have great careers and be heavyweight champions in WWE. All those were small guys that beat the bigs. Why couldn't Jushin?

 

[AhSpicyDrop]

I'll admit he never faced a seven footer but he has beat prominent Japanese heavyweights in Nishimura, Satoshi Kojima, Kazuchika Okada, and Hector Garza. No they're not the biggest names in the world but it at least proves he can hang in their class. He beat Daniel Bryan, Chris Benoit, Chris Jericho, and Eddie Guerrero who all went on to have great careers and be heavyweight champions in WWE. All those were small guys that beat the bigs. Why couldn't Jushin?

Beating guys early in their career isn't the same as beating them whenever they're established stars with title reigns. Good try though. Also all of those guys are around his size. I love Liger and he's the best junior ever in my book, but he doesn't beat Sid in this tourney.

 

[It's...Baylariat!]

This is Sid Vicious. Liger went over Shawn Michaels in this tournament years ago, so what makes someone think that Liger can't beat Sid as well?

Vicious sucked as a wrestler, was champion in WCW when the belt had lost all its luster, and is as clumsy as you'll find in the ring...something that Liger would take great advantage of.

Liger should take this, but if he goes against another big man that has any lick of sense, then he's done... but this is Sid here... the same dude that said he had half the brain that Hall and Nash had.

Vote Liger.

 

[Bernkastel]

This is Sid Vicious. Liger went over Shawn Michaels in this tournament years ago, so what makes someone think that Liger can't beat Sid as well?

Because all of us were - and we still probably are - ignorant to choosing the more deserving wrestler?

Vicious sucked as a wrestler, was champion in WCW when the belt had lost all its luster, and is as clumsy as you'll find in the ring...something that Liger would take great advantage of.

But he was still an effective heel that made guys like Bret and Shawn look good, and further solidified them as "giant slayers." Despite his resume, Liger was nothing more than a jobber to the stars.

Liger should take this, but if he goes against another big man that has any lick of sense, then he's done... but this is Sid here... the same dude that said he had half the brain that Hall and Nash had.

I'm not much of a Sid fan myself, but it doesn't exactly make me smart for voting Liger when he was never a big time player where as Sid was. Both in WWE and WCW.

 

[It's...Baylariat!]

Because all of us were - and we still probably are - ignorant to choosing the more deserving wrestler?

??

But he was still an effective heel that made guys like Bret and Shawn look good, and further solidified them as "giant slayers." Despite his resume, Liger was nothing more than a jobber to the stars.

Sid was a jobber to anyone and everyone during his prime... Hogan, Shawn, Undertaker, and many others during this time. Liger's extremely capable of beating Sid.

I'm not much of a Sid fan myself, but it doesn't exactly make me smart for voting Liger when he was never a big time player where as Sid was. Both in WWE and WCW.

That's a fair call on your part, but Sid was a bit player in an era of bigger stars. And is also remembered more for being a goof and terrible at promos than being a WWE Champion and co-main eventing Wrestlemania.

I still give this one to Liger.

 

[Bernkastel]

??

So you're saying that you're capable of voting the better guy forward without bias? You're arguing for Liger, so I don't see it.

Sid was a jobber to anyone and everyone during his prime... Hogan, Shawn, Undertaker, and many others during this time. Liger's extremely capable of beating Sid.

Liger still wasn't able to defeat anyone with any real star power in the heavyweight division - it would have been like Rey Mysterio beating Mike Knox; that's hardly noteworthy. Sid may have lost to some big names, but he's defeated many other big names in the process.

That's a fair call on your part, but Sid was a bit player in an era of bigger stars. And is also remembered more for being a goof and terrible at promos than being a WWE Champion and co-main eventing Wrestlemania.

Liger primarily fought heavyweights during the 1999-2000 period when All Japan and New Japan did their crossovers. That gave Liger plenty of people to work with. NOAH may have had most of the big stars at the time, but older draws like Riki Choshu were still around.

If Liger was considered the best junior at the time, and Muta was the best heavyweight that All and New Japan had to offer, and he lost that would have made Liger a midcarder at best, compared to an established upper midcarder like Sid. Why should Liger win this match again?

 

[The Brain]

Interesting match. When looking at the names my instinct is to vote Liger. He's one of the most decorated champions from Japan and is more respected as a worker than Sid. But if this was an actual match I have a hard time believing Liger would actually beat Sid. Sometimes a good worker is just overmatched. I think Sid uses his size and strength to overpower Liger. Powerbomb pin for the win for Sid.

 

[Papa Pillman]

Are you kidding me? NJPW/IWGP has weight classes, the Junior title is just as important as the heavyweight. Liger is an ELEVEN time Junior title holder. Let me put this in perspective for you. Since it's inception in 1986 the IWGP Junior title has changed hands 66 times. To compare we can look at the WWE title that since 1986 has changed hands 101 times! One hundred and one! Liger held the junior title 11 times which is 7 times more than the next guy, nearly triple in fact. They don't hand the belt out like candy.

Since Brewski already did a great job of putting Liger's accomplishments into perspective I will leave that alone.

Also the fact that Sid did do the job to the likes of HBK and Benoit helps negate the argument that he would simply be too large.

Here in the International Bracket where Sid's supersize, and his career of being overbooked because of it, means less than in any other, I'm going with Liger.

Liger's combination of aerial assault, power for his size, and technical artistry would have made him alot to handle for many big men. Against a guy as slow and uncoordinated as Sid it would be the deciding factor. Sid would struggle to get his hands on Liger, he would do some damage when he did, but eventually Liger's abitlity to hit him from so many angles would catch up and allow Liger to get the win.

Also since its better to GIF than to recieve...

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

Sid would win. Sorry, I'd love to try and argue otherwise but he doesn't have the offensive moves to defeat the monster... or rather he doesn't have the physical capability to hit them on the 320lber.

I can see Thunder hitting many dropkicks, leg kicks and missile drop kicks and maybe even escape one powerbomb attempt but, ultimately, getting caught by Sid's big boot followed by the power bomb and the 1-2-3!

 

[Jack-Hammer]

When you look at Liger's runs, the fact that he's held every major light heavyweight championship in pro wrestling, it's extremely impressive. However, when you look a little deeper, it's not quite as impressive, at least to me.

Liger is probably best known for his runs as IWGP Junior Heavyweight Champion, which he's been 11 times in his career.

Reign 1: 77 days - 3 title matches
Reign 2: 200 days - 2 title matches
Reign 3: 165 days - 3 title matches
Reign 4: 58 days - 1 title match
Reign 5: 139 days - 4 title matches
Reign 6: 628 days - 6 title matches
Reign 7: 116 days - 3 title matches
Reign 8: 183 days: 5 title matches
Reign 9: 403 days: 9 title matches
Reign 10: 49 days: 2 title matches
Reign 11: 227 days: 4 title matches

So while Liger was IWGP Junior Heavyweight Champion for a total of 2,245 days, he only defended the title a grand total of 42 times. For a few of his reigns, he had title matches consistent with the frequency of champions in major American companies like TNA and WWE. It's easier to have massive runs with a title when the champion doesn't wrestle matches for the championship very often. That's a point that CM Punk brought up at one point during his WWE Championship reign comparing himself to Bruno Sammartino. It pissed Billy Graham off so much that he wants out of the HOF.

What's the point? I guess the point, at least for me, is that while Liger is a great wrestler, something that can't be denied. However, it also, again to me, makes all the various "wrestling god" or "he's a god in Japan" arguments I've seen towards Liger in past debates in these tournaments carry much less weight.

I'm actually a little surprised to see that this match is so close. Every year, people jizz themselves over Japanese & Mexican wrestlers and flip out when they don't flat out dominate whomever they're put against.

I'm going with Sid here because, as others have pointed out, Liger is a junior heavyweight. Possibly the greatest junior heavyweight of all time, but a junior heavyweight just the same. Maybe it's just the American mentality but when I think of wrestlers who have to compete against wrestlers who are of similar size, it gives the impression that the company believes smaller men are inferior to big men. It's not true in actuality, but that's the impression I get in Mexican & Japanese promotions who regulate wrestlers to certain weight classes.

It's not going to bother me if Liger goes over Sid here. I get that the guy's great and liking someone more than someone else is reason enough for people to vote Liger over Sid. Can't blame 'em. I myself was never a big fan of Sid. He was an imposing, impressive specimen, but he'll never be thought of as one of the all time greats despite being a 4 time World Champion, albeit for a combined total of 97 days. I think Liger could beat Sid, I just think it's unlikely outside of Japan or Mexico.

 

[Tastycles]

Liger's sublime, and his exploits in tournaments past were great, but I don't think he'd beat Sid. Sid is remembered more for his being a total fuck up later on, but in the early 90s, his popularity was probably second to only Hogan, until he turned heel. He then managed to bring a little realistic competition to Michaels later in his career, something that was desperately needed. I don't think either would be an undeserving winner, but my vote is for Sid.