How Racist and/or Sexist is Dagger Dias?

[JGlass]

My worldview isn't going to be affected by a post on a wrestling forum. This forum is supposed to be release from the harsh realities of the world. It's clear your passionate about race issues and that's ok. I'm not going to pretend that racial issues aren't a problem, because they clearly still are. I'm not going to pretend to know how to fix them either, because in reality, there's never going to be true racial harmony.

That's very sad. Not the actual words, because I don't think that this is true. What's sad is that you believe that. Very pessimistic.

I mean, it probably won't happen in my lifetime. But maybe my kid's lifetime.

But getting upset about a post on a forum isn't going to make a damn bit of difference in how the world works. If you really want to get involved in attempting to right the injustices of the world, engage in some real activism, not a social justice tirade on a forum that has maybe 200 regular posters.

I'm a social worker. My profession is to help people who are extremely poor, mentally ill, and have nothing.

I also would like to help change people's minds about other issues, and if those people are on a wrestling forum, so be it.

 

[BaconBits]

That's very sad. Not the actual words, because I don't think that this is true. What's sad is that you believe that. Very pessimistic.

I mean, it probably won't happen in my lifetime. But maybe my kid's lifetime.

It's not pessimism. It's a grasp on reality. There have been racial issues since the beginning of mankind, and there will continue to be until the end of mankind. I don't doubt that things will get better, but the issue of people hating those that are different is never going to fully go away. It's light years better here in the US than it is in most of the rest of the world. I mean, have you ever read up on what's going on in Burma?

I'm a social worker. My profession is to help people who are extremely poor, mentally ill, and have nothing.

That's very cool. Should pay a lot more than it does. However, if you're trying to impart your personal views on the people you're helping, that's not cool. At. All.

I also would like to help change people's minds about other issues, and if those people are on a wrestling forum, so be it.

I can respect that, but attempting to do that with what amounts to a personal attack on another poster who you may or may not have ulterior reasons for throwing shade is absolutely, positively the wrong way to go about it.

 

[Viola Moonlight]

That's very sad. Not the actual words, because I don't think that this is true. What's sad is that you believe that. Very pessimistic.

I'm picking this mostly because it was the most recent quote, and I wanted to address this to you.

Have you considered not bringing attention to questionable discrimination, such as the Dagger example, as a form of removing discrimination? No matter how bad the publicity, it's still publicity. Take the Ashley Madison leak, for example. After exposing the cheaters in real life, the website took an increase in subscriptions. How about the #cancelWWEnetwork a couple of years back, resulting in more subscriptions to the network? I will take the argument that this isn't the same discrimination - or in the same ballpark as topics go - but I'm focusing more on the attention aspect. Whether discussing this in a negative light, or whether discussing the nature of how bad the comments were, you're still bringing this form of discrimination into the light of many impressionable people.

Maybe you should try the Sexual Education approach? Being open about sex, and teaching children how to prevent the bad things from happening, is proven more effective in lowering teen pregnancy and STI's than teaching kids not to have sex, without explaining it fully. In other words, don't just bring attention to discrimination, but educate people on why it exists, how it's wrong and what ways people can prevent it. Your initial shitpost would've been much more respectable if you followed this method.

 

[Tastycles]

Drawing attention to a guy like Dagger Dias' implicit sexism and racism is more important than pointing out Donald Trump's explicit sexism and racism.

Dagger is a nice guy who loves his job as moderator. I was wrong that he would behave like a little hitler if given the power and he has proven himself to be diligent and helpful

Dagger Dias is so helpful he answers rhetorical questions.

And that, I imagine, is what compelled JGlass. Dagger is a nice guy doing what he thinks is an inoculous thing, but has shown sexist ideals that he is unaware of.

 

[Slyfox696]

Where he suggests male wrestlers are chosen to represent female wrestlers? How is that not sexist?

For the same reason it wasn't sexist with Bobby Heenan made Rick Rude wrestle or when Paul Heyman uses Brock Lesnar to settle a score?

It assumes that they are unable to put on an entertaining match themselves

Historically, he's correct.

Is the truth now considered sexist?

I think that's because you wanted it to. I know how much you love low hanging fruit.

Says the person who started this thread...

A) Not nearly as much as it happens to women.

I don't know if I'd agree with that.

B) That doesn't make ranking people's appearances (men or women) okay.

It makes it realistic though.

Just to clarify before I attempt to unload this question, you are suggesting that if Dagger isn't being outwardly racist, then it means I'm racist for noticing a trend based on race in a statistic?

I'm suggesting that if Dagger was black, and ranked things the exact same way, you likely wouldn't have noticed/cared.

The answer to your questions are no and no. Dagger did not expressly write that being non-white makes them lesser

So you simply inferred something he never said and has never claimed to believe, but you are suggesting he's racist anyways?

Again, if Dagger was black would you have come to the same conclusion?

nor am I being racist.

Err...I think the argument can just as easily be made that you are.

I noticed that Dagger gave lower appearance rankings to non-white women.

He gave white women low ratings though. For example, Sasha banks is higher than either Charlotte or Nikki and while I'm not familiar with Carmella from NXT, she looks white in her pictures and she got a very low rating as well.

I don't think he did it intentionally, nor do I think Dagger is a racist (or at least I didn't when I made this thread

But you still created a thread questioning it anyways?

Yeah, that makes sense.

I do, however, think that he created a a system of ranking the women of WWE that was inherently racist as it skewed strongly in favor of white women and appearance was something taken into account.

Sasha Banks is ranked third on the list, ahead of the current Women's Champion...how is that skewed? Also, shame on you for thinking all white people are the same. That's actually kind of racist of you, for insinuating that all white people are the same...unless you think Paige and Natalya are the same people with the same cultural background. Let me guess...you think Joseph Kony and Booker T are the same race also, right? After all, their skin color is the same, they're basically the same person, correct?

You don't pull glibness off half as well as I do. Condescending and demeaning are more your colors.

No, it was a genuine point. He's treating them like men and you have a problem with it. In other words, you are saying women aren't equal with men, just like you did earlier by suggesting it was okay for a man to hire a wrestler to further his goals but now a woman.

Who's the sexist now?

Obviously Dagger never directly stated that

So you're just pulling stuff out of your ass?

It's when you actually take a second to analyze his ranking system and see that the statistics trend favorably towards white women and negatively towards black women.

Sasha Banks is third overall, ahead of the women's champion. Your entire point is essentially nullified.

Let's say I made a ranking system where I was ranking actresses and I used four categories: acting ability, role selection, awards, and appearance.

Then you would have three more categories than most TV/movie casting directors.

Then lets say I give Scarlet Johansson a 6 on acting ability, 6 on role selection, 3 on awards, and 10 on appearance. Then I gave Kerry Washington a 6 on acting ability, a 7 on role selection, a 3 on awards, and a 5 on appearance. Then I put a disclaimer at the end that my appearance system was at least partly influenced by how attractive I find the women and stating that I find white women more attractive than black women.

Then you would be honest, not racist.

That means, according to my system, Scarlet Johansson is a better actress than Kerry Washington, and this ranking was influenced by race.

No, it was influenced by what you find attractive. As others in this thread have already told you, what you find attractive isn't racist.

That's racist.

No it's not. He's not saying Kerry Washington shouldn't get hired to act in movies because she is black, he's saying he'd rather watch a movie with Scarlett Johansson because she's more attractive to him.

If he said Kerry Washington shouldn't be allowed to be in movies, THAT would be racist.

And sexist, because I don't believe appearance has anything to do with how well an actress should be received.

Then perhaps you really are more naive than I thought.

But, no, really, I'm sure Megan Fox gets all of those roles in Michael Bay movies because she's such a talented actress.

Not only am I not naive

Oh, I'm starting to question that.

But that doesn't mean that they should work this way.

It doesn't change the fact it does.

I know it's sappy, but I do want to live in a world where appearance (beyond looking right for the role you are playing, and there's not a single woman currently in the WWE that looks wrong for the part) is not taken into consideration when it comes to how well a person is received.

So in other words, you have no problem with Hornswoggle defeating the Big Show cleanly in the center of the ring? Or El Torito pinning Ryback cleanly?

After all, if appearances don't matter, then you should have no problem with the little guys pinning the much larger guys.

Idealistic? Yeah, you bet. Unreasonable? I don't think so, not as long as we keep trying to move past thinking like the kind of thinking Dagger Dias displayed when he made these rankings.

You're accusing him of sexism and racism, absent any hard evidence of it, and you're complaining about HIS thinking?

The big disconnect people seem to have here is that it's possible to be racist or sexist without being cartoonish or outlandish about it.

No, the big disconnect is between those who understand racism/sexism to be an act of discrimination and people like you, who think innocuous thoughts of what another finds attractive to be on par with actual discrimination.

I find white women more attractive than black women. Does that make me racist too? One of my best friends is black and he finds white women more attractive than black women also...is he, too, a racist?

And, again, would you be calling Dagger racist if he were black?

The problem here isn't with Dagger's post, but rather with the insidious undertones with which you created this thread.

Disclaimer: I'm not really interested in debating with you until the end of time

That's fine, but at the very least acknowledge how racist and sexist you sounded in this post of yours, as I pointed out numerous times.

You seem to think women can't do what men do and you thought negative things about Dagger because he was white. Oh, and that just because two people have similar skin color, they are obviously the same person. Just acknowledge your own sexism and racism and we'll be set.

Pink ribbon culture does big business. Guess that means cancer's a top draw.

I can't think of another disease awareness campaign which draws as much money as breast cancer awareness. Breast cancer very much is a top draw.

 

[Coco]

Yes, multi-quote minutiae will definitely help clarify the issue.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

For the same reason it wasn't sexist with Bobby Heenan made Rick Rude wrestle or when Paul Heyman uses Brock Lesnar to settle a score?

They're heel managers, not wrestlers.

You seem to think women can't do what men do and you

Actually it is Dagger that thinks that the girl wrestlers in WWE can't have a safe MitB ladder match so they should leave it to the men to do it for them.

But they get a purple accessory for winning.

 

[klunderbunker]

Actually it is Dagger that thinks that the girl wrestlers in WWE can't have a safe MitB ladder match so they should leave it to the men to do it for them.

When several of them can't do basic moves safely, I'd be inclined to agree with him.

 

[Slyfox696]

They're heel managers, not wrestlers.

They are someone who hired a man to get them ahead in their career.

Actually it is Dagger that thinks that the girl wrestlers in WWE can't have a safe MitB ladder match so they should leave it to the men to do it for them.

That's not at all what he said. He said there is not enough in the current group of workers in the women's division who are currently good enough to work safely in a high impact match, but that in a couple of years as the current talent improves and more quality talent moves up from NXT, then they probably could.

That's not sexist, that's an assessment of their quality. He's not saying they can't do it because they are women, he's saying they shouldn't do it because they aren't good enough.

Whether you agree with the assessment or not is irrelevant for the purpose of this discussion, it doesn't change the fact his statement wouldn't be sexist.

When several of them can't do basic moves safely, I'd be inclined to agree with him.

JOSHI!!!

Oh wait, wrong hill upon which to die....SEXIST!!!

 

[SSJPhenom]

Lol. This has turned into a classic bar room thread.

It's been awhile since we've had one of these.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

They are someone who hired a man to get them ahead in their career.

I get your comparison. I just think it is terrible.

That's not at all what he said. He said there is not enough in the current group of workers in the women's division who are currently good enough to work safely in a high impact match, but that in a couple of years as the current talent improves and more quality talent moves up from NXT, then they probably could.

Safely? Why can't they work safely? The men's division has spent the last year with men dropping like flies. Why are these women the ones who can't do what the men do? What makes them so different when they seem to be the healthier of the two genders?

I get them not being able to put on a competent match but saying they can't be safe without an explanation is really insulting to a wrestler of either gender.

That's not sexist, that's an assessment of their quality.

No, it's saying they can't work safe which to me makes them sound stupid.

He's not saying they can't do it because they are women, he's saying they shouldn't do it because they aren't good enough.

Safe enough.

But let's go with women and Andre the Giant can't climb a ladder.

 

[klunderbunker]

I get your comparison. I just think it is terrible.



Safely? Why can't they work safely? The men's division has spent the last year with men dropping like flies. Why are these women the ones who can't do what the men do? What makes them so different when they seem to be the healthier of the two genders?

I get them not being able to put on a competent match but saying they can't be safe without an explanation is really insulting to a wrestler of either gender.



No, it's saying they can't work safe which to me makes them sound stupid.



Safe enough.

But let's go with women and Andre the Giant can't climb a ladder.

....have you watched most of the women wrestle in the last year? Based on this, it's pretty clear you haven't. A good chunk of them can barely handle throwing a dropkick and now you want them diving off ladders?

As has been made clear multiple times: it's not that women can't handle ladder matches. It's that so many of the women on the current roster can't. Those are two different things and that should be crystal clear.

 

[Slyfox696]

I get your comparison. I just think it is terrible.

Then it would fit right in with the premise of this thread.

Safely? Why can't they work safely?

Ask Dagger, not me. You're now trying to argue with his assessment, an argument about which I could not care less.

My point is that his statement was not sexist and I think that's been pretty soundly proven.

Why are these women the ones who can't do what the men do? What makes them so different when they seem to be the healthier of the two genders?

His statement didn't say anything about their gender making them less capable, but rather their ability in the ring.

It's really not that hard.

I get them not being able to put on a competent match but saying they can't be safe without an explanation is really insulting to a wrestler of either gender.

So if I say that I don't trust Mr. Kennedy circa 2007 to work a MITB match, am I being sexist against men because Mr. Kennedy was awful?

If you disagree with his assessment of the skill of the workers, feel free...just understand it doesn't make his assessment sexist.

No, it's saying they can't work safe which to me makes them sound stupid.

It's like you are willfully ignoring the rest of his statement:

The division can get there, maybe in a year or two with the continued help of the NXT system.

He's saying they are not good enough right now, not that their gender prevents them from being good enough.

Safe enough.

And not sexist.

Andre the Giant can't climb a ladder.

Why, because he's French? Wow, that's incredibly racist of you.

 

[Coco]

What would your wife think if she knew how hard you are right now?

 

[George Steele's Barber]

....have you watched most of the women wrestle in the last year? Based on this, it's pretty clear you haven't. A good chunk of them can barely handle throwing a dropkick and now you want them diving off ladders?

Because it is too dangerous?

As has been made clear multiple times: it's not that women can't handle ladder matches. It's that so many of the women on the current roster can't. Those are two different things and that should be crystal clear.

Just like women "weren't ready" to be police officers and firemen or serve in the armed forces not long ago.

Then it would fit right in with the premise of this thread.

No argument there.

Ask Dagger, not me. You're now trying to argue with his assessment, an argument about which I could not care less.

My point is that his statement was not sexist and I think that's been pretty soundly proven.

His statement didn't say anything about their gender making them less capable, but rather their ability in the ring.

Except the last year has proven that ridiculous. I don't watch 1/2520th of the wrestling that kb does but I can tell you that Seth Rollins broke John Cena's face, ended Sting's career, and pur himself out of wrestling for months. A man who competed in and won a MitB Ladder Match.

There is no evidence that these women are dangerous. There is nothing that separates them from being able to work any less safe than the men. In fact they are probably more safe.

It's really not that hard.

So if I say that I don't trust Mr. Kennedy circa 2007 to work a MITB match, am I being sexist against men because Mr. Kennedy was awful?

No, Mr. Kennedy was one person, not a large portion of the men on the roster.

If you disagree with his assessment of the skill of the workers, feel free...just understand it doesn't make his assessment sexist.

The skill he was critical was their ability to be safe. I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me what evidence exists that the women on this roster are any less safe than the men.

It's like you are willfully ignoring the rest of his statement:


He's saying they are not good enough right now, not that their gender prevents them from being good enough.

And not sexist.

So what is going to make them more safe in the future because Dagger provided no reason or evidence that the women are unsafe. He just said they were women.

Why, because he's French? Wow, that's incredibly racist of you.

Keep your hands off my Freedom Fries.

 

[klunderbunker]

Because it is too dangerous?



Just like women "weren't ready" to be police officers and firemen or serve in the armed forces not long ago.

Yeah.....you're either really dense or intentionally being stupid so I think I'm out here. This is a very, very simple concept and for some reason you just don't want to get it so I'm wasting my time.

 

[Coco]

Bye.

 

[NSL]

So then KB's argument is that attractive women should be given the opportunity to succeed more often than less attractive women?

That's not a very compelling argument.

I wasn't saying they should get those opportunities...just that they do. I know it isn't fair, but that's the way it is.

Uh.....not exactly.

What I was going for was that while looks aren't all that's important, they do play a role in how high you're going to get. Going back to Albert, let's say he had the same physical abilities as John Cena, the same ability to speak and the same in ring ability but his own appearance. John Cena is going to be put on the posters because he's got the All-American look that is going to be a big tiebreaker.

The same is true for the women. A blonde haired blue eyed Trish Stratus with the gorgeous smile and rather appealing physique is going to get pushed harder than say, Awesome Kong. That's not saying Kong is bad, but Stratus' looks are the tiebreaker.

This isn't a corporate office. It's a TV show, where visual appeal plays a huge role. There's really no way around that and looks are often going to play a big role in how much someone is pushed. This is true in almost any media. How much of One Direction or Beyonce's success is based on their physical appearance? It doesn't mean they're talented, but it means they make more money.

Dagger saying that women are better at their jobs because of their looks isn't racist, nor is him putting his list in that order. It's how he finds them attractive and how he would rate them as such. Looks are going to play a
role in success in wrestling and that's all there is to it.

Then I apologize for "misquoting" you, but what you said here is basically what I was getting at, and just got it out wrong.

Seems to me that all Dagger needs to do to prove he's not a sexist is post a list of the male WWE wrestlers in order of attractiveness.

I'd pay to see this.

 

[Slyfox696]

Except the last year has proven that ridiculous. I don't watch 1/2520th of the wrestling that kb does but I can tell you that Seth Rollins broke John Cena's face, ended Sting's career, and pur himself out of wrestling for months. A man who competed in and won a MitB Ladder Match.

How does Seth Rollins not working safe mean that the ladies would work safe?

I don't understand your logic at all, likely because it's nonexistent.

There is no evidence that these women are dangerous.

Arguing with the wrong person on that. Again, if you disagree with his assessment, take it up with him. But it doesn't change the fact his assessment isn't sexist.

No, Mr. Kennedy was one person, not a large portion of the men on the roster.

And the majority of the main-event talent on the WWE women's roster haven't been on WWE TV for even three years yet.

Mr. Kennedy was not a good worker, so it would not be sexist to say putting him in a MITB with five others like him wouldn't be safe. So why is it sexist for saying the women, who (in our hypothetical) are not good enough workers to be safe, shouldn't all work together in a MITB?

It's not sexist. You can disagree with the level of quality of the women, but the statement is not sexist.

The skill he was critical was their ability to be safe. I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me what evidence exists that the women on this roster are any less safe than the men.

He didn't say women are less safe than the men, you're saying that. It's no different than saying Big Josh from Tough Enough wouldn't be safe to have in that match.

It's not about their gender, but about their supposed skill level. Making it sexist when it's not is silly.

So what is going to make them more safe in the future because Dagger provided no reason or evidence that the women are unsafe. He just said they were women.

You'll have to ask him.

If it were me, I'd point out that wrestlers are usually improving with each match they work and with each year that goes by. So what would make them more safe is increased skill level.

Keep your hands off my Freedom Fries.

JOSHI!!!

I mean...RACIST!!!

 

[nightmare]

So when Sahsa wins the title in a ladder match, is this whole thing done? Well, you know, if a black woman can climb a ladder safely & all without the help of a man.

 

[Hyorinmaru]

So how come it's just Dagger that's racist and/or sexist and not everyone else who posted in that thread?

 

[Nate DaMac]

So how come it's just Dagger that's racist and/or sexist and not everyone else who posted in that thread?

Shut up, Milenko.

 

[ABMorales787]

So how come it's just Dagger that's racist and/or sexist and not everyone else who posted in that thread?

Because the idea is to rile him up and try to rile him up and sound morally superior doing it.

 

[Hyorinmaru]

Shut up, Milenko.

After you give me an answer to my question I'll be more than happy to.

Because the idea is to rile him up and try to rile him up and sound morally superior doing it.

Well it seems to have worked then.

 

[ABMorales787]

Well it seems to have worked then.

Only one part did.