Calgary Region, Third Round: Ultimate Submission: (3) Edge vs. (6) Eddie Guerrero

Discussion in 'Calgary Region' started by klunderbunker, Mar 10, 2011.

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Who Wins This Match

  1. Edge

  2. Eddie Guerrero

Multiple votes are allowed.
Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. hatehabsforever

    hatehabsforever Moderator
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    Definitely Edge. All due respect to the late great Eddie Guerrero, Edge is a multi time champion who typically does not get the full respect which he has earned and which he deserves. People sometimes cheapen his accomplishments, with the number of titles he has won, forgetting that the ultimate opportunist gimmick is exactly that, a gimmick. It is not that he didn't deserve pretty much all of those titles, it is just that the character he portrays won a lot of them in a cheap fashion.

    Edge is more than capable as a submissions wrestler. So too is Guerrero, but I simply think that Edge is better. While Edge is often somewhat under-rated, I also think that Guerrero tends to be a little bit over-rated at times.

    A tight battle here, but the Rated R Superstar prevails.
     
    #26
  2. El Rev sXe

    El Rev sXe If you have ghosts...

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    Okay, the hold is unbreakable outside kayfabe. I insist, how can you break the hold when the only part of your body that you can move is your head? It is incovenient for the company to sell a move like that. However in a match like a ultimate submission is common to see a variation of submissions moves, this is the kind of matches where technicians shine. While Edge may have a better a career, this one favores the technician which is Eddie.

    Unlike the iron man matches, the ultimate submissions matches are known for having fast submits. I don't think that for the reason I already stated and the hold itself, Eddie would need to hold for much time Edge to make him tap out.
    On the other hand, Edge is heavy but he ain't Mark Henry,

    Well I must be honest, I haven't seen it, but you and I know that in wrestling win and lose doesn't mean much after all. I know that even that result it's true it could totally change. For me at least, it's irrelevant as far this match concerns. It's not like the gory special is the only move Eddie knows. Like I said before, the gimmick benefits Eddie, this is where technicians shines and Eddie is a better technician than Edge.
     
    #27
  3. Hulk Hogan's Brother

    Hulk Hogan's Brother Stop asking me what I'm gonna do!!!

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    Actually if you look at either's guys major submission move, Eddie's Lasso and Edge Edgecator, both moves have proven to be largely ineffective over the years. From what I remember Eddie has only made Rey Mysterio submit from this move and that was sometime in 2002-03, long before Mysterio hit his prime. Edge has made no one submit to the EdgeCator until recently when he made Drew McIntyre submit. So both guys have managed to make midcarders submit but these moves are largely ineffective against the big stars.

    But the point is, Eddie should win this. If you look at any Eddie Guerrero match in his career, you will find that he has performed at least one submission move in his match. Apart from the Lasso, Eddie has moves like the STF, to which Edge has submitted, the Gory Special, the Figure Four, the Surfboard Stretch and the Bow and Arrow lock in his arsenal. I have never seen Edge perform a single submission manouver outside his Edgecator and that has been largely ineffective over the years. At least Eddie has performed manouvers that have resulted in a submission when they have been performed by other performers.

    Eddie's style in the ring has been a mix of high flying and technical stuff while Edge's style has largely been that of a fast paced hardcore brawler who used a few high flying moves as a youngster. This match type undoubtedly suits Eddie's style.

    Edge is 2-1 in their rivalry but let me remind you that Edge won a No DQ match agaisnt Eddie to end their feud, a match that undoubtedly suits Eddie's style. Eddie won a ladder match in which both Edge and Eddie are almost evenly matched. So I think that in a match that undoubtedly suits Eddie's style Eddie is bound to emerge the winner.

    Edge has defeated some technically proficient wrestlers most notably against Regal and Angle but it must be noted that Regal has more victories over Edge than Edge over Regal. I cannot remember Edge defeating Benoit though. Eddie has defeated the same group of wrestlers and quite a lot more as well. He has defeated the likes of Benoit and Malenko whom Edge has certainly not beaten.

    Vote For Eddie!!!
     
    #28
  4. TheOneBigWill

    TheOneBigWill [This Space for Rent]

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    Alright, there are multiple issues I have here - the first among those is the fact that you're lying.

    You said Edge has not made anyone submit, outside of McIntyre recently. That is largely incorrect, and had you of done your homework properly you'd know that he made William Regal submit on an episode of Monday Night Raw - which ultimately ended their feud.

    Now then, the other issue I have is this..

    This is a submission match. You JUST stated that neither individual has been largely successful in submission type styles, and that Eddie (in your mind) has only made Mysterio submit. Whereas Edge has actually made the likes of McIntyre and Regal submit - both guys with larger body types than that of Mysterio, and equal to those of Guerrero's.

    So, why should Eddie win - when the only type of guy he can force into a submissive state is that of a cruiserweight? Edge is a heavyweight, in every shape of the term. Edge isn't small, he isn't weak, and he can not be forced down by Eddie.

    On the other hand, Edge has forced Regal and McIntyre both to submit. Both are of similar size and weight to Eddie.

    If you're going to base your keys to victory off nothing more than saying someone should win, because they have submission holds within their moveset - you should stop to question why almost none of them (outside of one - on a cruiserweight, according to you) have worked when he's applied them. Perhaps it's because he was a huge failure at forcing a submission out of people??

    You're absolutely correct in understanding that Edge doesn't use submission based wrestling. Why? Because he has never had to. He has enough power to weaken his opponents that should he need a submission, he only needs one. Not several smaller versions of holds that OTHERS have made famous - to soften his opponents up for something else entirely.

    I also have no idea how you can base Eddie winning this match, merely because he's USED holds that OTHERS have used to make people submit.

    Well, shit, if that's the case - Edge has applied the STFU to Cena in a couple of their matches. Edge didn't force a submission from it, but in your theory of things, all he has to do is use a move that others have forced submission from and it'll work for him, too, right? Wrong.

    Just because Eddie has used moves that Edge has tapped to in the past - does not mean Eddie has the ability to make him do it all over again. Eddie has tapped to the Walls of Jericho - Edge has applied the Walls to Jericho. The same concept could be used to say Edge would force Eddie to tap to that, because he tapped to it from someone completely different.

    SO, because Eddie is a high flying technical athlete - and Edge (in your book) is largely more aggressive in a hardcore manner only - a submission match, which once again you pointed out yourself that neither man is great at, is better suited to win. Uhm, what?

    Edge doesn't have to know 1,000 moves to win this match. He doesn't have to wrestle toe-to-toe with a technical great, to win this match. However Edge fits his style, does not mean he isn't equally as suited to win.

    I pointed out one extra guy that's submitted to Edge, than you have that's done the same to Guerrero. If anything, that makes Edge more of a master of forcing submissions out of guys than Eddie.

    When the hell did they have a ladder match?! As I recall, they had two regular matches, and an anything goes match that largely focused on a ladder being involved. Nothing else.

    Edge and Eddie split the single's victories, (Edge first, then Eddie second) and Edge won the anything goes/ladder involved final match between them.

    Edge didn't lose a ladder match to Guerrero, and until you find me proof of this mysterious contest I'm going to continue saying you're coming up with largely inaccurate thoughts and boldly made lies.

    Once again, a ton of bullcrap and more lying. Edge has defeated Chris Benoit in multiple matches. You want one, then look no further than the 2005 Backlash ppv. (Last Man Standing match) They also feuded throughout the last part of 2004, in which Edge snagged a couple victories as did Benoit.

    As for Regal holding more victories over Edge.. two things pop into my mind.

    1. Why does this matter, when Edge holds more victories over Eddie himself.

    2. What types of matches does Regal hold 'said' victories over Edge? Because his 2 victories he holds over Edge fall into a single's match, and a gimmick "knuckles on a pole" match. However, Edge has defeated Regal at the Vengeance ppv in December, and ended their feud by forcing Regal to submit when all was said and done.

    3. Edge may not have any victories over Malenko, but the same can be said in return of Malenko over Edge. Why? Because they merely never met when they were in the business together. Eddie holds victories over the guy, because they were in the same Company for roughly 5 years. Edge and Malenko were only in the same Company for 2, before Malenko retired.

    Now, if you're done coming up with these random events and situations that haven't happened; I'd appreciate you making sure people understood you just randomly posted what you thought was real - when, infact, most of it was false.
     
    #29
  5. TheOneBigWill

    TheOneBigWill [This Space for Rent]

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    Alright, so then you need to determine what we're going to debate over. Kayfabe right now or Non-Kayfabe right now.

    Kayfabe: No hold is unbreakable. Past, or Present. So Edge can do what he's already done, and get out of the hold fairly easily.

    Non-Kayfabe: Eddie's dead, and there is NO escaping THAT. Edge wins by default. :shrug:

    Now, if we can be serious for a moment; this is a fictional wrestling tournament that is set mainly based on what we know from watching years of the sports entertainment. In which, no hold is unbreakable. Hell, if you apply it correctly, a fricken hammerlock can be unbreakable depending on how heavy you are. So there is no real point to arguing how anything can not be broken out of.

    Alright, I just spent the better part of 20 minutes trying to track down all the Ultimate Submission matches there have ever been, and I only kept being redirected to Iron Man matches and the Angle/Benoit 30-minutes 4-3 (OT) Backlash 2001 match.

    Now, I would imagine that the reason submissions happen faster instead is because the time limit has never been longer than 30 minutes. Again, this is my opinion and until I get a bigger list of ultimate submission matches I can not say otherwise. (Or be told, otherwise)

    So, with that said I have to believe that Edge would not tap out (nor would Guerrero) so easily, so many times. Both have strong endurance and both have the ability to go the distance of this match. Eddie has more submission holds, but as it's been proven time and time again - when you put someone in a match they aren't typically used to, they adapt very quickly and surprise you with how well they've prepared for it.

    Edge didn't know anything about ladders before his first ladder match, but he quickly adapted and look at the situation now. He's known as one of the best in that style. Once again, there is NO reason to think Edge wouldn't train for this match and learn a couple extra submission holds.

    Finally, as I said in a post before this one - just because Eddie knows more submission holds, does not mean he knows how to make people tap out TO THEM. Edge isn't going to tap out to something no one else has, from Guerrero, merely because a clock is counting down and a score is being kept. That's just what Guerrero supporters have been hoping people would be foolish enough to believe.

    And in closing to all of this..

    Edge has matched, and beaten, better technical wrestlers than the likes of Eddie Guerrero. Neither guy is huge in this area, but apparently from what a Guerrero supporter has pointed out - Edge actually holds more submission victories in the WWE. (which is where both men came into their primes, for whatever that's worth)

    Eddie is the better technical wrestler than Edge, but that does not mean he has a better chance to win. As Edge has proven several times, he can beat anyone, or any style. He can go in an underdog, and come out the winner.
     
    #30
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  6. Hulk Hogan's Brother

    Hulk Hogan's Brother Stop asking me what I'm gonna do!!!

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    I don't remember this quite well and I could not find it on Youtube. But assuming this is true...

    What is William Regal? A glorified midcard jobber at best. Yet somehow are making a huge deal of this victory over him which is totally unjustified. Almost everyone who has faced William Regal has beaten William Regal. He may have great technical skills but they have never gotten him any significant victories in the WWE.


    Yes Edge, the main eventer, made McIntyre a lower midcarder submit. I am still not sold on Regal till you show video evidence but I am guessing that it happened sometime in 2002. At that point Edge was very hot and was even defeating the likes of Kurt Angle and Regal as I have already mentioned is just another midcard jobber.

    Eddie was a midcarder when he made Mysterio, another midcarder submit. Hell I'll argue that Mysterio at that point( mid 2003) was a bigger star than either McIntyre or Regal has ever been. So Eddie has made the bigger star submit

    Mysterio is small but in no sense of the word is he weak. Very few people have got a submission victory over Mysterio and despite his size Mysterio has a better win/ loss record against most guys. So claiming that Eddie made some weakling submit is totally false.

    However if you are talking about weaklings, let us talk about McIntyre and Regal: two guys who have never mattered an iota within the WWE. That is the type of guys Edge has forced into submission( according to you)


    Yes but you cannot deny that if you have a lot of submission moves in your arsenal they can be used to repeatedly weaken a body part and ultimately setup the big submission move that Eddie has. What will Edge do? Just keep trying to lock in the Edgecator from the first moment, a move that Eddie will be well prepared for?

    Eddie can surprise Edge by busting out moves that Edge might not expect out of Eddie and he may not be able to counter it. Edge does not hold that element of surprise over Eddie.

    Yes well making two guys submit does not make him a master at submission wrestling. Especially if both guys are weaklings like Regal and McIntyre.

    Meh, looks like I got confused with the NO DQ match. Anyhow as you can see both guys are equally matched at singles matches. The NODQ match is Edge's yard and that is why he got a victory. A submission match is well again Eddie's domain due to his background. There is no reason why Eddie cannot force a victory in that match.


    A 2-1 advantage when the WWE was pushing Edge hard and Eddie had just returned from rehab. If anyone was in their prime, it was Edge. Yet they traded victories and Edge only won because the match type suited him.

    And niether guy won any match by submission. So why is this coming up for discussion anyway?

    Has Eddie ever faced William Regal? Yet you are making it a point to mention Edge's victories over Regal, stating that Edge has indeed defeated a technically proficient superstar.( who never mattered an iota in the WWE though.)

    Eddie has defeated an even more technically proficient star and that too in the best phases of his career in WCW.
     
    #31
  7. Big Sexy

    Big Sexy Deadly Rap Cannibal

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    Neither was a great submission wrestler but both know submissions and have gotten victories in that fashion. I'm basically throwing the gimmick out because it favors neither man. With that out of the way I look at the careers of both superstars. Edge has been more successful then Eddie at all levels. From the tag team ranks, to the mid card, to the main event. Edge has been a consistent main eventer for over 5 years while Eddie was a career mid carder who spent about a year and a half around the main event. Edge is a multiple time world champion while Eddie was a one time world champ. You can say Eddie's career ended prematurely but let's not forget that he was 38 when he died. He may have gotten one or two more reigns but nothing compared to what Edge has done. Both superstars are overrated but the victory in this match goes to Edge.

    Winner: Edge
     
    #32
  8. TheOneBigWill

    TheOneBigWill [This Space for Rent]

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    Youtube does not hold video of it; I have searched under every term to try and find it. Regardless, the following link is directed to a website that holds reviews of shows. Follow this link, and read the card - you'll find the match, and it'll explain Edge wins by submission.

    http://www.wrestleview.com/results/raw/61.shtml

    Now THAT - is how you prove shit is real, son. :lmao:

    :wtf: I just went all out to find you any type of proof that it was real, and you just go one step further and shit all over it. Why I outta...

    Anyways, Regal has defeated some big names, including; Ric Flair, Sting & Chris Benoit. Just because the guy was a career mid-carder in WWE does not mean he's weak, or bad in any way. He was merely a victim of circumstance.

    As for victories in the WWE - he's a multiple time Intercontinental Champion, multi-time European Champion, multi-time Tag team Champion and a 2008 King of the Ring. The guy may not have won a World Championship, but he has certainly done his fair share to be remembered. And this is just his WWF/E stuff, not including his WCW stint.

    This is kinda the entire point I was trying to make. Edge, the mid-carder in 2002, defeated (soundly) Kurt Angle - the guy who had been Main Eventing, and even won a Heavyweight Championship before this point - and later in the same year, defeated Hulk Hogan. Yet here is this mid-card version of Edge, who held his own against a very tough technical wrestler in Angle.

    If he can hold his own as a mid-carder, against the prime version of Kurt Angle. I don't give a shit what version of Guerrero you put in the ring against Edge - he'll lose.

    :lmao: You're absolutely right, Eddie made the guy more prone to submitting, submit. Regal rarely quit, and McIntyre also hasn't been known as someone who easily quits - but Rey, the better star who's tapped out quite often, gave up to Eddie. Oh yeah, big difference there, huh.

    :eek2: Tell me you're kidding.

    1. Dean Malenko
    2. Ultimo Dragon
    3. Chris Jericho
    4. Kurt Angle
    5. Chris Benoit

    That is just a top 5 list of names that have had several matches with Rey Mysterio, all of which picked up multiple victories over constantly making Rey tap out on a regular basis.

    First, you're correct - according to me, by way of something I like to call "the truth", Edge has made both of those individuals tap out/quit.

    Second, you're correct in understanding Regal and McIntyre haven't meant hardly anything to the Company. But that isn't to say they haven't meant anything to the business, or the wrestling industry.

    Regal is world famous, and has accomplished several goals/won many titles, including top ones within the WWE. (as I named off earlier)

    McIntyre is still by all accounts at the beginning of his career. What is this, his 2nd year? And he's already been an Intercontinental Champion, a Tag team Champion and hand picked by Mr. McMahon. Where was Eddie in his 2nd year in the business?? Wrestling in a dim lit bingo hall, then moving on to WCW where he lost a lot in the beginning. (just like McIntyre, only without any title victories until moving into his 3rd year)

    Why does Edge have to focus on constantly trying to lock in one submission move? As I've stated before, look at how easily wrestlers can adapt to something when you think they've got nothing.

    Edge didn't know what to do in ladder matches his first try, but he quickly learned and now look at him. He's one of the best at that style. There is absolutely NO reason to think Edge wouldn't go into this match with a couple extra submissions in his back pocket to pull out.

    Furthermore, you don't lock in constant submissions to set-up other submissions. You weaken body parts by wrestling, and brawling. Something Edge can do, with a lack of submission knowledge. It won't take a dozen plus submission holds to win this match. It won't even take 5+, all it'll take is one. One that makes your opponent quit - and Edge has a hold that can do that. (as does Guerrero)

    Edge won't constantly look to lock in the same submission every other hold. He'll look to weaken the legs, and any other body part he can get his hands on and go from there. Edge is smart inside the ring, he knows how to look for new openings and take advantage of situations.

    The same exact thing could be said in reverse for Edge, against Eddie. I fail to see the point here.

    And making one guy submit that's accomplished more than either of those two guys, does not give Guerrero a vast knowledge and understanding of submission matches, either. Next..

    What fricken background?! :banghead: The whole ONE submission victory he's had in his entire career? Holy crap, move aside everyone - the guy who's won a single match by submission is about to master the whole damn thing.

    Well, it isn't my fault the guy you're trying to push has a drug problem and can't keep clean. Eddie was recieving multiple chances at pushes and kept screwing them up. Either by injury, or by drug addiction. That isn't mine, nor Edge's, fault.

    A win is a win, and Edge has 2 of them. You can continue running on about all the excuses you want.

    Because when they matched up, Edge on two different times (out of 3) got the better of Guerrero. That means he withstood everything Guerrero had to give him, including submission based moves, and continued to come out on top.

    Not once did Edge even HAVE that submission move in his moveset when they fought, either. So there isn't a solid understanding that Eddie wouldn't of tapped to it. Eddie didn't use the Lasso then, but he had all of the other submission moves you (and others) have ran on about - and Edge didn't quit to any of them.

    1. Yes, Eddie Guerrero has faced William Regal. Eddie has gotten pinfall victories over him, but no submission. As for why I continued to bring up the Regal fact - it's because it reflects on Edge winning via submission; more so against a guy you neglected to include, in your attempt to make Edge look even weaker in a submission based match.

    2. Edge has defeated just as many big named stars as Eddie. The difference is Edge has defeated many more. (Undertaker, John Cena, Triple H) Eddie has faced them, but not beaten them.

    So now what?

    (PS: I feel the need to throw this in. It really doesn't make a difference who wins, because either man will be fed to Hulk Hogan in the next round. Even though I feel Edge is the better of the two - between he and Guerrero, no one on this forum in their right mind is going to vote against Hogan, regardless of who he faces.)
     
    #33
  9. Nate DaMac

    Nate DaMac Fuck erbody but me

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    So I was watching the Edge DVD compilation earlier today and I saw a couple of things that interested me. There are 2 matches with him against Kurt Angle (who is superior to Eddie in every way, don't kid yourself) and 2 things caught my eye.

    The first was in a match from Judgment Day in 2002. Edge won it clean by pinfall but that's not what caught my eye. Afterwards when Edge was attempting to cut Angle's hair, he successfully put Angle to sleep with a Sleeper Hold long enough to shave his head. If he can put out Angle, he could put out Eddie.

    The second one was during the Cage match between Kurt and Edge. During this match, Edge put on an Ankle Lock perfectly. He didn't win with it, but I'm just saying this to show that despite what some are saying, Edge isn't a complete ****** who doesn't understand how to hook in submission moves.

    Then there's the whole thing with Edge being way more successful and relevant than Eddie. Pesky thoughts.

    Vote Edge.
     
    #34
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  10. LSN80

    LSN80 King Of The Ring

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    What are you talking about here? I guess you've looked at Eddy with rose colored glsses since he passed, and screw the rest, eh? Edge ONLY has the Edge-O-Matic, the Sharpshooter, the Sleeper, and he's even used the Ankle Lock on occsion. What's more, he's proved himself to be vicious when applying submissions. He's much more then a spear and the Impaler DDT, which is obviously how you view him.

    The thing is this. Eddie was a great technician. But he didn't and doesn't have the array of submission holds that Edge does and has used in the past. Edge has shown the ability to not only use a wide variety of submission holds, but he's also shown the ability to use others submission holds againstthem. All the Latino Heat in the World isn't going to help Eddie here. Edge has beaten names that Eddie simply hasn't beaten, and they were for World Titles to boot. Last time I checked, Edge is an 11 time World Chmio, Eddie won one. Edge has beaten the likes of Undertaker, Batista, Kurt Angle, Randy Orton, Chris Jericho, John Cena, and HHH, amongst others. While Eddie beat Lesnar, it was basically due to Goldberg. Edge has won more and beaten better.

    This should be a great match, make no mistake about it. But to say that Edge has "no patience" is incredibly shortsighted. If anything, it was Eddie who lost his temper at times and lost his focus, which is what I see happening here. Edge applies the Sleeper to start, and Eddie barely keeps from fading. Edge escapes the Lasso by getting to the ropes, and Eddie pounds the mat in frustration. Edge capitlizes and locks in the Sharpshooter, and maybe, just maybe, Eddie gets to the ropes here. But by this time, he's spent, frustrated, and makes a mistake. He attempts the three amigos, but Edge slips out of the third, springs off the ropes, and spears Eddie. Eddie's easy prey for the Edge-O-Matic, and believe me, he's not getting out of this one. Edge wins via submission at the 17 minute mark.

    Vote Edge.

    Hamler' right, as usual. He's got one of the best minds for wrestling on this site. I should have just skipped posting, read his, and voted. Simple as that.
     
    #35

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