Calgary Region, Third Round: Ladder: (4) Vader vs. (5) Lou Thesz

[Tastycles]

since not a single move listed is a leg submission, and none of them would prevent walking, your argument is pretty shit, and I'm not the one who needs Common Sense classes, rather you are. Not to mention the fact that Thesz wouldn't even be able to apply a lot of his holds on the 450 pounder.

STF - Not what John Cena does, but a hold which in the words of the same site that you are using as a credible source "The wrestler then pulls back stretching the opponent's back, neck, and knee." Knee is a part of the leg. After common sense 101, you might want to try biology.

You can say whatever you want. Logic dictates that a hammerlock, or a headlock is not as dangerous in a Ladder Match as a Splash off an elevated surface (ropes, ladder, whatever), yet alone a splash by a 40 pounder.

How many superheavyweights have won ladder matches? Zero.
How many submission specialists have won ladder matches? Also zero.

Oh wait

Vader will ultimately powerbomb Thesz the same way he powerbombs everyone else (a force Thesz has NEVER felt before in his entire career), then puts Thesz on the ladder, and Vader Bombs him off the 2nd rope onto the ladder, then nonchalantly sets up the ladder, climbs, and wins the match. Thesz then gets stretchered out of the arena, although I wouldn't be surprised if Vader gave him 1 more Powerbomb/Vaderbomb post-match because he can.

Now, when you say everyone do you actually mean everyone except Ric Flair? Or do you mean everyone except Ric Flair and Hulk Hogan? Or do you mean everyone except Marvellous Marc Mero? Or are you just completely wrong?

Never said it was. I said a diving splash, not a slingshot splash, which is what the Vaderbomb is.

Here is a diving splash elegantly performed by Slam Master J.

[YOUTUBE]7_mIs5TEVag[/YOUTUBE]


Well then, it's a good thing I said that he would be performing a diving splash and not a Vaderbomb. Now if you're saying Vader couldn't perform a diving splash, I'd have to ask you to really question that validity of that statement. Vader could perform a moonsault, I don't think he'd have any troubles performing a diving splash.

1) I addressed diving splash when I said he wouldn't have the necessary leaping ability. If he falls, as with all his other aerial moves (notice how he never hits moves very far away from the turnbuckle), then he's going to twat his shins on the ladder. Don't mention the moonsault, he doesn't have a great leap on that either, and springs off the ropes, like just about everyone who uses that move does.

2) Vader never hit a diving splash in his lif. If you are adding that move to his repertoire, I am adding the Lou Thesz patented existential ladder toss to his. Basically, Thesz is capable of throwing a ladder at such a force that it opens on impact, knocking his opponent down and then pinning them in such a manner that they cannot retaliate before strolling up the ladder for the win.

Of course, he's never done it, but why should that matter?

If we give Thesz all of his attributes, can we give Vader a few of his? Let's take, for instance, his ability to totally annihilate an opponent. The way you talk about this match you make it sound like Vader would never be able to get the upper hand on Thesz, but we all know that's not how wrestling matches work. Vader will eventually get his hands on Thesz, and when that happens, Thesz is going to be put down for a while... a long while. I foresee Vader powerbombing him in the corner, hitting the Vaderbomb, and then climbing the ladder and hitting a splash. Thesz isn't going to be so quick to get up to his feet after a combination of powerful moves from Vader. Stronger men have suffered from Vader's wrath, and while there's no denying Thesz would be one of Vader's toughest opponents, I don't see him being able to withstand the might of The Mastadon.

Fictitious diving splash aside, this is ridiculous. The Vader argument is getting increasingly reliant on the idea that he decimated everyone he fought. History dictates otherwise, hence why Sting is the only high profile American wrestler he has clear cut victories over. It's not that he didn't face the likes of Hulk Hogan and Ric Flair, it's just that he didn't beat them.

Flair is probably the most old school guy Vader ever thought, and he repeatedly and decisively beat Vader. If that's not reason enough to see Vader cannot always do what is required to beat major stars, I don't know what is.

Who's dismissing him? Just because I think Vader would beat him doesn't mean I don't respect the man's abilities.

Thinking that a man who lost half of the matches he ever wrestled would beat Lou Thesz is not only dismissive of Thesz, but of basic wrestling history.

Making assumptions now, are we? I'd say Stan Hansen is pretty fucking stiff, and the fact that he was working stiff while not trying to win when he wasn't supposed to almost says more about Vader.

How does that show more about Vader? In the modern game, stiffness is popular in Japan, it's why Vader wrestled there. However limited Hansen was at restraint and protecting his opponent, somebody who is legitimately trying
to break bones is going to be hitting you harder. Surely that's obvious to anyone with eyes, whether or not they are hanging out the socket.

And why are we talking about stiffness in a contest about fake wrestling? I suppose if you put a lot of stock in stiffness that's cool, but I don't.

It's a pretty standard Vader argument, and I'm neutralising it before it happens. But more to the point here, I am demonstrating the persistent toughness that Thesz would have had to and did have.

What's the point?

I assume you mean what's the point in Thesz coming back? It's because he was one of the most popular wrestlers of all time and because the people wanted to see him, something that doesn't happen to Big Van Footnote.

I was making a point through exaggeration. You brought up matches past Vader's prime, so I brought up a match past Thesz's prime. Just pointing out the hypocrisy.

When is Vader's prime then? The defeats mentioned mostly happened in the first year of his WWF career. If he was never in his prime there, we can look to WCW were he was getting caned by Ric Flair regularly and losing to Davey Boy Smith. If we're looking at Japan, we can look at his defeats to Riki Choshu, a 6 foot tall legitimate wrestler turned professional wrestler. Face it, Vader has lost wherever he's been as much as he has won. I mentioned those people because I assumed Vader wasn't finished at 40 years old, but apparently, he was.

Or he can and will. And as for swinging the ladder...

I wouldn't give Thesz the same strength rating that Vader has. Vader isn't ridiculous levels of strong, but he's still a 450 pound beast that could throw down with the biggest and best. Like IC said earlier, real wrestling is divided up into weight classes for a reason, every pound makes a considerable amount of difference.

Is professional wrestling divided into weight classes? No. Did I say that Thesz was as as strong as Vader? No. I said that he was stronger than their weight differential suggests.

Still, a ladder shot is a ladder shot, and it's going to do a number on whoever gets hit first, but a monster like Vader will recover from a (relatively lighter) ladder shot than Vader would from Thesz.

Right. The faster wrestler (Thesz) is more likely to hit with the ladder first. Why is a fat man more resilient than a honed athlete? This is where their typical match length is noteworthy. If Vader gets to 15 minutes without winning, he almost always loses, because he cannot recuperate very well. If Thesz goes past 15 minutes, as he almost always did, his conditioning helped him to win. That conditioning will help him recover better than Vader could ever hope to.

Also, ladder shots are rarely what wins a person a ladder match. In fact, I can't recall one ladder match where a ladder shot kept a competitor down long enough for the other guy to ascend the ladder and get the win.

IC brought it up, not me. It's what happens when you're clutching at straws, as anyone supporting Vader has to be.

Now I wouldn't say that. Intangibles man, intangibles. Vader is meaner, has a bigger legacy of brutality, is more durable, and has experience in gimmick matches.

Remember when I showed brutality doesn't help in a ladder match? It wasn't very long ago. Experience in gimmick matches is meaningless. If it was a match where previous experience helps, maybe, but it's not. Very few gimmicks give any real benefit to people that have done them before. The cell and chamber are perhaps the only ones.

Or maybe go back and read what I said and tell me it doesn't make you feel like an ass. I never said wrestlers who are brutal don't win ladder matches, I never said anything close to that. I said I didn't think there was ever a wrestler AS brutal as Vader in a wrestling match ever, mostly because Vader is one of the most brutal guys to ever step foot in the ring. There are plenty of brutal wrestlers who have won ladder matches, including Edge, Triple H, The Undertaker, Benoit, and Abyss are all wrestlers I consider to be brutal that have also won ladder matches. While some of them are more talented than Vader, few of them are as ruthless as Vader.

Edge and Benoit are not particularly brutal in their style, far more methodical, you rarely see either being ruthless. I've addressed Taker and Triple H, Abyss has lost more ladder matches than he has won.

I'm ignoring the part where you "make it simple for me," because instead of sounding smart it just makes you look like an asshole.

Or is it because it is irrefutable evidence that the basis of your argument is flawed?

As noted in the above list of wrestlers to have won a ladder match, clearly it doesn't prohibit one from being able to win.

Didn't say it did. I didn't bring brutality into this, that was a Team Vader argument, and it I showed why it is a shit one. Not to mention that most of the brutal wrestlers you list to have won a match are either not brutal or did so with mitigating circumstances.

But Vader is still stronger and more experienced in this type of match.

Is zero more than zero? There's one for the mathematical philosophers to ponder. For now, lets say neither has experience in this kind of match.

No, I'm saying Jeff Hardy was always billed as a hardcore expert, and that's where his advantage lays. You have a wonderful gift of putting words in other people's mouths, even if they are less than palatable.

No it isn't. Firstly, Jeff Hardy was not billed predominately as a hardcore expert, always as an agile quick wrestler. Secondly, the fact that Mick Foley lost a ladder match to the Big Bossman should probably indicate that hardcore experience doesn't help.

But we have seen that they can win. And let's not pretend Thesz fits the archetype of ladder match performers either. He's admittedly closer to what the WWE commonly puts in ladder matches these days, but he ain't exactly Kofi Kingston, John Morrison, or Shelton Benjamin.

Only one of which has won a ladder match. He is however, quite similar in size and arguably style to CM Punk, who has won three of his four ladder matches.

What if they're both on the ladder, then who gets the advantage? Vader.

Well, no, actually do they not teach Physics in America or something?

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction

That means if either man pushes the other one, they are likely to lose their own footing. Now, could Vader throw Thesz off the ladder if they were both on it? Yes. Would Vader be able to reach the top of a ladder Thesz was already on before Thesz uncoupled the object? No. Would Thesz climb a ladder Vader was already on when he could easily push it over as we have seen? No, so that ability is useless.

Also, let's not pretend the ladder will be as wobbly as an upside down pyramid. Ladders are built to be sturdy, it's not like Thesz is going to be able to take a yawn and a stretch while pushing over the ladder with one hand. It's a ladder with a 450 pound man on the top, driving the ladder into the ground. It's still going to be one hell of a bitch to tip that bad boy over.

[YOUTUBE]EMBngZOr6VY[/YOUTUBE]

Sting + Christian Cage = Vader, in terms of weight roughly speaking. If a battered, bruised and tired Earl Hebner can push over a ladder with that weight at the top over without any difficulty, I think we can consider this point officially wrong.

Depends on what Taker was being billed at when he beat Jeff Hardy.

He's been just under 300 for most of his career, even if he was over, it would be by an insignificant amount, not as much as Vader.

Also, how many guy close to Vader's size and shape have been in ladder matches? The only one I can think of is Bam Bam Bigelow, and he fought to a no-contest. Abyss would the second closest, and he's won a few times.

Not including MITB, Big Show and Malice were both pretty sizeable, as was Tor Kamata. They all lost. The main reason men like this don't have ladder matches is because nobody would buy something where they have to move quickly up a ladder to win. On the rare occasions that they do have matches like this, they lose.

And you're assuming that there is a correlation between weight and winning ability, the correlation being the heavier you are, the less likely you are of winning. How do you know it's not a bell curve? How do you know that eventually it gets to a point where the heavier man has an advantage of being harder to knock down off the ladder?

Because the laws of physics are constant. Also, The Big Show is bigger than Vader and has lost ladder matches.

No, because Vader has never man handled an opponent in such a way

Not very many in the top bracket of wrestlers.

In that case, Thesz vs. Hogan every year please with John Cena and Stone Cold as runners up.

This is such a shit argument it is untrue. The fact you think it helps you actually makes me feel sorry for you a little bit, seriously. If this was a real tournament, that would be the outcome every year, because that is what the paying audience would want to see. Guys like Vader would probably go deep into the tournament, squashing insignificant faces until they met a huge star like Thesz or Cena or Hogan or even Flair, at which point they would lose.

You know, the more I'm thinking about this argument, the more I'm thinking it's bull. Just by intuition, I have a feeling I'd have a lot more trouble if I sat a 400 pound guy at the top of the ladder and tried to push it over than I would if I sat a 200 pound guy up there. Until you show me the equation that proves that it would be easier to knock down Vader on a ladder, I'm going to go on believing you're talking out your ass. I've never been much of a math or science guy, but I do know a thing or two about moving heavy shit, and stuff is a lot heavier when you have a 400 pounds pushing down on it when compared to 200.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centre_of_gravity

Jesus Christ. Firstly, you aren't lifting, you are pushing. Secondly, this should be pretty intuitive to everyone. An object falls over when its centre of mass is no longer over its base. A heavier man up a ladder is going to have a higher centre of mass, which means that you only have to push it a little bit so that it is no longer over the centre of its mass. I direct you again to the Earl Hebner video. A weedy gimp who had just taken a shot easily pushes a ladder with a lot of mass on it over.

I haven't got my mechanics notes with me, but hopefully this will suffice and you will stop denying physics. The centre of mass is determined by integrating the total mass over the entire area of the structure and finding the midpoint. For something like a straight line, this is easy, but I am not good enough at maths to work the full equation out in my bedroom at 4 o'clock in the morning for a complicated system. The point at which it is no longer over the point of contact is a simple case of determining the angle of tilt. This is determined using the co-sine rule - you know the distance to the mid point and up to the centre of mass, so you can determine the angle.

Look, this is true, face the fact it is true, and take your head out of the sand. To prove it to yourself, balance something that can reasonably easily be stood on its side. Now attach some blu tack to the top and try and balance it again. It will be harder, because of exactly the same principals. I'm not going to discuss something that has been commonly known for hundreds of years any further.

How many ladder matches have we seen won by a submission maneuver being used to incapacitate the opponent? Not too many.

None where it's completely incapacitated them, but plenty where it is a part of a gradual weardown. Jericho on Benoit at Royal Rumble 2001 was a good example of how a big submission move can help.

You mean a Stepover Toehold FACELOCK? Yeah, I'd say it's just as much a head/face submission then a leg submission. When you see anyone get put in an STF, what do they hold in pain as soon as they get out of it? Not the leg, the HEAD/FACE.

John Cena's move is called STF because STFU is a funny name. The move is not an STF.

You mean logical, and not talking out my ass because Lou Thesz is ancient (and thus from an entirely mat-based era where no one was really ever incapacitated).

This is so wrong and so stupid it's attrocious.

No, I would vote against Hogan if all he ever did was non-impactful offense in a match where the object is to be IMPACTFUL enough to incapacitate an opponent long enough to climb a ladder and retrieve an object.

Non-impactful? Are you ******ed? How is stiff hits and suplexes non-impactful, whatever impactful means. If Thesz's repetoire is non impactful, then so is Bret Hart's, Chris Benoit's and Chris Jericho's. All of whom have won ladder matches.

Force. With the Greco-Roman Backdrop you drop to the ground, and the guy is not lifted far off the gound. With a powerbomb, you lift the guy pretty much over your head, then SLAM him to the ground with excessive force, with the guy landing on his back and then causing an extreme whiplash effect on the neck/head. I mean that's pretty obvious, I guess you don't know shit about science. Here's some homework; a little experiment if you will. Take a hardcover book (a textbook if you have any) and drop it on the ground (landing it flat on the back of the book). Then take said book and throw it to the same ground with as much force as possible (again, making it land flat on the ground). the 2nd time it will make a MUCH louder sound, and will be MUCH more impactful.

The fact you are trying to use the word impactful in a scientific discussion is putting you onto a loser. The fact you think a backdrop implies no force implies you know nothing about wrestling or physics.

 

[The Other Hardy Brother]

I'm not gonna go into extreme detail about how disgusted I am about how Vader is losing right now in a ladder match to a guy who probably doesn't even know what a ladder is. Let alone how to use one to win a wrestling match. All Vader would have to do is take the ladder and beat Thesz with it till he didn't get up. That's not illegal is it. Then as long as the ladder didn't break under him he could take as long as his fat ass wants to climb up and get the whatever is hanging up there. If it did break, well Big Show had a special ladder so im sure we could spring one for Vader.

I mean god this is more lopsided than Austin/Punk

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

I'm not gonna go into extreme detail about how disgusted I am about how Vader is losing right now in a ladder match to a guy who probably doesn't even know what a ladder is.

I'm pretty sure they had ladders back in Thesz's day. Call it a hunch.

Let alone how to use one to win a wrestling match. All Vader would have to do is take the ladder and beat Thesz with it till he didn't get up. That's not illegal is it.

All Thesz would have to do is beat Vader with it until he didn't get up. It's not that hard.

Then as long as the ladder didn't break under him he could take as long as his fat ass wants to climb up and get the whatever is hanging up there. If it did break, well Big Show had a special ladder so im sure we could spring one for Vader.

I mean god this is more lopsided than Austin/Punk

Big Show didn't even win the match with the special ladder.

 

[TheOneBigWill]

I'm only making this post because the poll is so close. My vote is going to Vader.

I know very little about Thesz and I'm sure many who support him will be upset that I so easily put my vote in the hands of the guy I know, over the guy I didn't even give a chance to know. Well, several have done that to guy(s) I support - so shit happens, and it's a vicious cycle, all I can say is the same thing that's been said it me. Get over it.

My vote for Vader isn't solely because I don't know Thesz alone. I know Vader. I know Vader's style, and anyone who's posted in here with the logic that the bigger guy will get winded and be unable to climb is another reason why my vote is even more enforced toward him. That type of logic is incredibly simple minded and quite simply bad. (I want, badly, to say stupid - but I'm trying to be respectful)

Vader has more power than Thesz based on the limited (as in 2-3) matches I've seen Thesz in. Another thing is Thesz has been more methodical in his style. Vader is going to be lulled into a coma, he's going to come at you with his power and strength advantage and beat the shit out of you. In a match without rules, not to mention with a weapon such as a ladder, Vader is only that much more deadly. He's going to cripple you with the devices around him.

Has Thesz even been involved in anything regarding a situation where he needs to climb? I mean, has he even climbed the turnbuckles, much less a ladder match that likely wasn't around during his era. This is something completely out of his element and he won't know how to handle it, much less the 450+ lbs monster that will be trying to hurt him as much as possible.

 

[UltimateHitman]

Tasty and Gelgarin have both been tearing it up in here, so I'm not even going to interject on those matters. I just have a quick little tidbit to point out.

Why are people talking about ladders as if they are some kind of exotic artifact not many people have experience with?

I wasn't around when Thesz wrestled, but I'd venture to say that at some point in his life he did some housework or something and it required him to climb a freakin' ladder.

It's a ladder. Normal, average, every day people use ladders. Just because it's in a ring doesn't mean that the basic principle of climbing a ladder somehow changes to some mystical feat only achieved by intensive training at a monastery in Tibet.

Simply put? It's a f__king ladder, not a Chinese ring puzzle or a Rubik's cube.

 

[TheOneBigWill]

I wasn't around when Thesz wrestled, but I'd venture to say that at some point in his life he did some housework or something and it required him to climb a freakin' ladder.

It's a ladder. Normal, average, every day people use ladders. Just because it's in a ring doesn't mean that the basic principle of climbing a ladder somehow changes to some mystical feat only achieved by intensive training at a monastery in Tibet.

Simply put? It's a f__king ladder, not a Chinese ring puzzle or a Rubik's cube.

UH, how many times have you done yardwork in which when you've climbed a ladder you've had someone trying to constantly knock you off 'said' ladder? Do you have Family that just absolutely refuse for you to reach the gutter? Perhaps your neighbor can't stand the color you're trying to re-paint your house, and they're constantly trying to push the ladder over?

Yeah, I'm sure the crazy invention better known as "The Ladder" was around when Thesz was alive. No, I do not believe he's had to do any climbing of such device, when someone was constantly trying to wrap his limbs around, or in, such a device.

You're absolutely right - the objective is as simple and clear cut as can be. You climb in a vertical direction, you take down the object at the top. Winner, winner, chicken dinner.

However, the discussion is a bit more advanced than.. "Can this person climb a ladder?" And somehow you've been torn into believing that's all people who're voting against Thesz with the idea he hasn't been in ladder matches have to say. It isn't about knowing how to climb, it's about knowing how to survive when someone is refusing to LET you climb.

Vader isn't a tooth pick. He isn't some push over. And he damn sure isn't going to be intimidated by a.. press. He's going to hurt you, and hurt you badly. My guess is he likely won't even try to climb all that often. He'll just enjoy hurting until he's bored enough from that, that he finally wants to advance.

 

[hatehabsforever]

I gave the slight edge to Vader in this one. He was a very dominant big man back in his heyday, and he was surprisingly agile for a man of his tremendous size. I don't see the ladder match stipulation providing him any problem whatsoever. Sure, it is somewhat of a foreign concept for him, but I would imagine it is even more foreign a notion to a Lou Thesz, or anyone else from his generation for that matter. I think Vader would be able to exert his power wrestling style on Thesz, incapacitating him, and then he would be able to climb the ladder with ease.

It won't be an easy match, but I see Vader as the one moving on to the next round.

 

[Muffin Top Merkley]

I don't really agree with the argument that Thesz is out of his element when competing in Ladder matches - It's only a ladder match, not an Ultimate X match or anything to that extinct. To win a ladder match, you need to put your opponent out long enough for you to climb up a ladder and retreive an object.

My vote goes to who can deliver enough punishment to keep their opponent down for the length of time it takes to set up a ladder, climb it, and get the object. And as tough of a man as Lou Thesz was, I believe that Vader would be able to deliver more of an intense, hard-hitting, brutal attack, taking Thesz out of the match so he can retreive the object.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

Well, it looks like I have quite a bit of responding (and campaigning) to do, with the score tied at 35. Once again, a match that started off with IC25 vs Gelgarin in a wrestling debate will likely have no clear winner, regardless of what the votes say at the end.

Late night, poor grammar, apologies.

I figured. You certainly get a pass. Lord knows I've needed one some nights more than others.

Thesz was subjected to long, stiff matches on a nightly basis year in, year out, and he won them.

One of the mega-criticisms of the Bret Hart vs Shawn Michaels Ironman match at Wrestlemania 12 is that it was more than half rest-holds. I do not, in any way, claim to have seen every Lou Thesz match ever nor every match from his era. But those matches that I have seen show an abundance of submission style rest holds like armbars and hammerlocks. Now don't get me wrong - I enjoy technical style mat wrestling where the competitors played to the crowd in a simple, logical manner. At the same time, I also recognize that with the advent of weekly shows (some of them live) and additional PPV's, the action with modern wrestlers moves far faster and with greater intensity than it ever has before. Stating that Lou Thesz wrestled nightly, and often for 30+ minutes, is all well and good, but you cannot compare the pace of those matches to today's action. Furthermore, Vader was known for his high impact offense and his ability to, when needed, keep up with a pushed-pace. It's one of the things that's helped make him an all time great in Japan.

Furthermore, one important fact I have to state. Lou Thesz won so much because of a largely ignored factor, and that is integrity. In Thesz's day, professional wrestling was still considered real and the protection of the business and of 'kayfabe' was like old school Mafia-style 'Omerta.' One of the things I've always respected about Thesz is his unwavering integrity for the business and how he did, in fact, handle the guys whose egos got bigger than the business. Thesz held the titles for the length of time he did for several reasons, including his dependability and integrity. In the 90's, that stalwart protection of the business had all but evaporated, and Big Van Vader still won World Titles in 4 countries against an overall greater cast of opponents. I put more stock in all of Vader's multi-national title reigns than I do Thesz's NWA run.

Vader's three most high profile gimmick matches - against Flair, Hogan (twice) - in the United States have all resulted in losses inside 15 minutes.

Vader's most high profile gimmick matches were: 1) a Texas Death Match victory over Cactus Jack at Halloween Havoc, 2) a White Castle of Fear Strap Match against Sting at Superbrawl 3, and 3) a steel cage match against Hulk Hogan. Vader was 2-1 in those three matches, losing only to Hogan, but kicking out of Hogan's leg drop at a one-count in the process.

Ken Shamrock beat him in a gimmick match in less than 15 minutes. People will claim that "Vader wasn't in his prime". I'd argue that even at 70 years old Thesz wasn't losing inside 15 minutes to anyone, and that is because he is tougher.

You cannot seriously be using the "Vader lost to Shamrock" and "Vader lost to Bradshaw" arguments in the awfully booked later months of Vader's WWF career. That's a huge reason Vader left WWF to go back to Japan. Admittedly, Vader is a guy who was considered to work "too stiff," and a lot of WWF guys didn't like that, including Mr. Michaels.

When Thesz was wrestling at 70, he was wrestling in lesser promotions as a name-based attraction. Sorta like Flair is doing now. Don't blame Vader because Thesz didn't know when to walk away.

That's true, but weight plays absolutely no part in it whatsoever, as you tried to claim. Strength does.

You're laying on the ground, and a guy is jumping on top of you with a splash. Who do you think would do more damage? Thesz or Vader? The answer is Vader, because of his weight. With that weight also comes immense power and strength. Thesz may well have been a stronger man pound-for-pound, but he is literally half the size Vader is. Weight, power, strength ALL play a role in a professional wrestling match, and all three favor Vader.

I'm telling you that's not true, Thesz was incredibly strong for his size, Vader is not particularly strong for his.

Are you serious? Vader is a MONSTER, even at 450. Maybe he doesn't get the credit because he rarely wrestled anyone his size, but Vader manhandled a 600+ pound Yokozuna with a series of high impact power-based offenses. What are you basing this "Vader wasn't particularly strong for his size" argument off of, by the way?

When somebody as nice as IC starts taking personal shots at people, it is because they have so little to argue about the topic, they have to maintain that there is some conspiracy, or they just purely attack the opponent to save face. Just something to think about.

It was called humor, try it sometime. You really are the Lance Storm of the forums, aren't you?

So here we have Irish, a perfectly competent poster who unfortunately seems distracted by the visual of Tasty taking me roughly from behind - lining up alongside JG, a man lacking the first clue what he is talking about and serving only to undermine his own argument.

I never made it out to be a sexual relationship. You did that yourself.

At least Shattered Dreams gets bored after five minutes.

Thank god for small favors.

As a second aside, I honestly can't believe that either of you are still arguing the point with Tasty regarding physics, this is stuff that should have been covered in high-school. You cannot propel yourself straight down from the top of a triangle, and a 450lb fat man is going to be far, far easier to displace from a ladder. This stuff isn't hard.

I think you're both over-rating this so-called Physics lesson. Vader is strong enough to push far enough away, but whatever, it's moot anyway. You take one maneuver that I dreamed up in an opening post away. You know what, it'd be more effective for Vader to lay Thesz either under, on top of, or in the middle of a ladder and hit the Vader bomb from the corner as he normally would. Your attempts to use physics to divert voters from the real argument - the fact that Thesz would be rolled over by the runaway train that is Big Van Vader - is, as I often call it, 'smoke and mirrors.'

You skipped over a few of my arguments in lieu of trying to be childishly mean to Tastycles (a man who fought in a war for the likes of you).

You thought that was MEAN!? You should hear the shit I say to D-Man and NorCal when we watch PPV's. Or maybe we just have senses of humor and thicker skins.

Now, I know this is going to hurt your world view Irish, but I think you're old enough to be told.

Big Van Vader was fat.

Yes, and yet that did not stop him from being among the most agile, fast, and impressive competitors in professional wrestling. Bill deMott is fat, and yet he's able to pull off an impressive array of vertical and arial moves. It doesn't take a six-pack of abs to be athletic. Stop stereotyping.

Being fat and heavy makes it harder for you to climb a ladder.

I don't know many skinny contractors. Jussayin'. Oops, sorry, that was a joke again. I gather by the posts I am responding to that this is to be a very serious debate. A lot on the line here. Let me regain composure...

Nobody is voting against Vader just because he's fat. We're voting against him because he's completely inferior as a professional wrester. The fact that he's a fat man competing in a contest that heavily disadvantages fat men is just one of the many reasons we have.

Vader dominated in 4 countries in an era where 1) the overall athletic ability of professional wrestling was far greater, 2) the need to have a faster paced and unique match grew, and 3) the differences between the cultural valuation of professional wrestling was wider than it had ever been before.

The fact that Vader managed to get over and be a multiple time World Heavyweight Champion in both the United States AND Japan is a damn impressive feat, even more so because he did it in the 90's.

Exposer to gimmick wrestling? So we're falling back on the assertion that hitting someone with a chair is a precise art that needs to be studied. I have a folding chair in my study, just for an experiment I picked it up, took it outside, identified a young Arabic gentleman and cracked him across the head with it. It was easy.

Seriously, dude? You don't think the mind-set and preparation is different when you're preparing for a hardcore match vs a technical wrestling match? You don't think a technical mat wrestler would be affected when he was told "ok, so in this next match against the 450-lb guy, um, those pinfalls and submissions that you've trained for all your life are useless, and he's going to come at you swinging ladders and chairs, and that's all legal?"

I'm not sure what Thesz being one of the best in the world at keeping his feet planted on the ground is supposed to mean. I'll concede that he didn't make a habit of missing flying moves like Vader did, but he spent plenty of time in the air and on the mat.

Thesz has a reputation as a tremendous mat wrestler, not a high flyer. I'm not saying there's something wrong with that. Oh, and your cute little "habit of missing flying moves" comment? You are conveniently leaving out Vader's pesky habit of HITTING flying moves and putting guys down and out with them. When he did miss high risk moves, he rebounded better than most.

That's fine to me since there is absolutely no way in hell that Vader, a man who lost matches to mediocre opponents on a regular basis, is going to destroy Lou Thesz, a man who went undefeated against the entire planet for year after year.

You keep trying to compare the opponents Thesz faced at house show after house show to the professional athletes Vader wrestled in the US, Japan, Mexico, and Germany in the 90's. Go ahead and make the argument that steroids had totally changed the game in the 80's and 90's - Vader wrestled guys who were juiced like crazy and still won World Titles everywhere he went.

You're just like the crazy old-school baseball fans who somehow think that Albert Pujols isn't as good as Babe Ruth when Pujols is hitting off of world-class pitchers vs Ruth who hit towering shots off of guys who would be bagging groceries if they pitched today.

If the man is going to get squashed by Ken Shamrock, Mark Henry and and crack addled Jake Roberts then he is not going to stand much of a chance against Lou Thesz.

Again, you're trying to confuse people by focusing on the last months of Vader's poorly booked WWF career. That's like someone saying "Ric Flair won't win this match, he lost to Kenny Dykstra." I am well aware that Lou Thesz only lost to some of the all time greats, and in the right way. I get it. Again, though, in the pre-TV era Thesz was in, he could wrestle the same match with the same guy night after night and every live crowd would think it was unique. Vader had a totally different challenge to keep the poduct fresh.

He never put his eye back in which I guess means he lacks Magical Vader Power but he's one of the most talented super heavyweights in wrestling history and he presented no challenge to Lou Thesz.

Again, I didn't bring it up. It's weird - I brought that up 3 or 4 years ago in the tournament and it became some sort of WZ sensation. It's a neat footnote to what was a tremendous rivalry, but it's not the only reason Vader was so tough.

No I'm not arguing that Vader will get himself disqualified. I'm arguing that he is stupid.

This argument is stupid. It has no basis in reality. It's random and arbitrary. Vader was booked as a big, strong, tough monster heel. Nowhere was he booked as "stupid." You're making it sound like losing his temper equates him to being ******ed. It's foolish.

Vader, despite occassional DQ loses due to over-brutality, still managed to be a 3-time World Champion in the US alone. And this match is no-DQ, no-count out.

Gelgarin, I truly respect your love for Lou Thesz. You're the authority on the man on these forums. But that amounts to basically being a "historian." You're trying to compare wrestling eras on an apples to apples basis, and it shows. I'll reiterate this in a separate post for the sake of simplicity and the waning visions of brevity, but your idea that Vader is "just another fat man for Thesz to outwrestle" is foolish, naive, and misleading.

Vader would run over Lou Thesz, and though Thesz would test him, he is SO FAR out of his element here against a man who was an absolute monster in 4 countries.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

Why I am going to knock my response to Tasty and Gelgarin by responding to THIS is beyond me, but this post pissed me off, so here goes.

I'm pretty sure they had ladders back in Thesz's day. Call it a hunch.

There's a MINOR difference between climbing a ladder / knowing how a ladder works and preparing to fight a fight where the ladder is a centerpeice to the match.

All Thesz would have to do is beat Vader with it until he didn't get up. It's not that hard.

Hardcore legend Cactus Jack wasn't able to do that in a match that was 100% in Cactus's element - the Texas death Match. Lou Thesz, a man who has never been in a gimmick match to my knowledge and who spent 6 decades seeking pinfalls and submissions (both of which are useless in this match) has FAR less of a chance of "beating Vader until he didn't get up" than Vader has of beating Thesz within an inch of his life.

Big Show didn't even win the match with the special ladder.

First off, Vader > Wight.

Second, Wight was facing guys with gimmick match experience. Vader is facing a man with no gimmick match experience.

 

[Hulk Hogan's Brother]

Just dropped in to respond to some of the stuff here:

While this may have been a bit common, it wasn't the only technique Thesz used to win matches. He also won matches by submitting them (some of which were with such "damaging" (nowadays) holds as a HAMMERLOCK), and I saw him actually incapacitate a guy for a few seconds with a "dreaded" (now) BACK SUPLEX.

Lets face it, Wrestling has evolved greatly since the days of Lou Thesz. What was innovative and a finishing maneuver during Thesz's heyday is now considered a rest hold or a basic throw/slam, in which the opponent isn't badly damaged.

Now lets look at (courtesy of Wikipedia) Thesz's primary maneuvers.

Finishing moves (again, according to Wikipedia, the only source

• Bridging belly to back suplex
  • I'll give Thesz the benefit of the doubt, and say he'd be able to hit the back suplex. It's a back fucking suplex, he's likely been hit with it countless times in his career. He'll get up quick enough and stop Thesz's ascent up the ladder.
• STF
  • The STF, IF Thesz can execute it, would hurt Vader. However, this isn't a submission match, and Vader would be able to get his bearings and stop Thesz's ascent up the ladder.

Signature moves

• Backbreaker submission
  • I believe this is an overhead style backbreaker. If that's the case, no way in hell can Thesz even try it. If it's the old drop a guy on your knee and bend the guy, maybe, but again it won't keep Vader down.
• Belly to back waist-lock suplex
  • This goes hand in hand with the other suplex. However, I doubt he'd be able to get the waist lock to execute it.
• Double wrist-lock
  • it's a submission then, it's probably just a rest hold now. Vaders back pretty quick.
• Headlock
  • Do I even need to explain how useless a headlock is nowadays?
• Lou Thesz Press
  • As explained earlier, this move is pretty much a leverage pin, and Vader could very easily beat Thesz to his feet after it. Not to mention I don't think it'd be easy for Thesz to knock Vader down by going high on him. Vader could easily catch Thesz and slam him with authority
• Powerbomb
  • Thesz wouldn't be able to do it to the 450 pound Mastadon.

Now lets look at a youtube video of the "Top Ten Move of Lou Thesz"
[YOUTUBE]R1-prUMGzps[/YOUTUBE]
Some of the moves are repeats from the list, the others are again, more holds that won't help Thesz win a Ladder Match.

So not only are the moves that Thesz do pretty routine nowadays (and in Vaders prime), some of them (Powerbomb) Vader does with MUCH more impact.

Thesz is a bigger legend. Thesz is the better mat wrestler. Thesz however, doesn't stand a chance in an incapacitating fight against Vader.

Vader wins this match rather handily. Vader ultimately hits a Vader Bomb onto Thesz on the ladder, splash (variant on a Vader Bomb) off the ladder, or powerbomb onto the ladder. Then Vader takes his sweet time climbing the ladder carefully (as to make sure it doesn't buckle under his weight), and grabs the mysterious winning object above the ring, all while Thesz is still out cold on the mat.

The simplicity of the move and what it means in wrestling today means nothing really. By that logic Hulk Hogan should not have won anything after the 1990's because the leg drop was such a common move that even if a superheavyweight hit a really small guy with it, the small dude would get up as if nothing had happened. Yet Hogan has been winning matches with it right upto 2006.

The point is if Thesz was knocking guys out with a back suplex or making people pass out with a hammerlock back in the 1950's, he would do the same in 2010. That is just how pro wrestling works. The effectiveness of the move has nothing to do with it's simplicity or how other people use it.

Vader isn't a tooth pick. He isn't some push over. And he damn sure isn't going to be intimidated by a.. press. He's going to hurt you, and hurt you badly. My guess is he likely won't even try to climb all that often. He'll just enjoy hurting until he's bored enough from that, that he finally wants to advance.

You are right. He need not worry about the press because Lou Thesz is not going to use it. It is a pinning combination for fuck's sake and Thesz will understand that the object of the match in NOT to pin the opponent.

However what Vader should fear is the back suplex or the hammerlock or the headlock because innocuous as these moves might seem, they will knock Vader out because Thesz in his day defeated guys with the same moves.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There is no way Vader wins this against Thesz. Superheavyweights have never been booked to win ladder matches. I know that Vader is no ordinary superheavyweight, he is very quick and agile and not to mention extremely stiff. But all things taken he is still a superheavyweight. As talented as he may be he does not possess the talent to make himself lighter when he ascends the ladder.

The arguement Tastycles makes about Centre of Gravity shifting is entirely correct though I think that a big deal should not be made about the fact that Thesz will find it easier to push Vader off the top. Vader will not find it difficult to push Thesz either. I think what people should worry about is of the ladder toppling off as soon as Vader starts to ascend it.

And before I forget Undertaker and Kane are not superheavyweights. A SHW in pro wrestling is a guy above 400 pounds. Kane and Undertaker are billed at 325 pounds approximately. Big Show, Yokozuna and Vader are SHWs, not Kane and Undertaker. So please don't try to justify Vader winning just because these two guys have won ladder matches.

The lack of experience in gimmick matches is a stupid arguement too. Smashing someone's head with a chair is not exactly rocket science. Yes Vader has experience in gimmick matches but has none of a ladder match. You know why that is the case? Because it is a stupid decision to book a SHW in a ladder match. Any wrestling booker will tell you that. The only SHW to have been booked in a ladder match so far is Big Show and that is only because it was a multi man match.

So on one side you have a guy who has never had ladder matches because of his size and on the other hand you have a guy who has never had ladder matches because wrestling had not evolved that much as yet.

Humor me this. If Hulk Hogan faces Chris Masters, Carlito, R-Truth, Wade Barrett and Drew McIntyre in an Elimination Chamber match are you going to vote against Hulk Hogan just because he has never been in an EC match as opposed to the other guys? That logic will very frankly be insane. Just because the match was ahead of Hogan's time does not mean that he will not win it.

Thesz wins because he is the bigger star. Thesz wins because he does not have the triple disadvantage of no experience, just too heavy to climb and a bad knee. His only disadvantage is lack of experience, something that can be overcome. Vader was stiff in an era where stiffness was an option, Thesz was stiff in an era where stiffness was neccesary. Thesz had to be stiff in order to ensure that no wrestling booker could pull a fast one on him. Thesz matches Vader in just almost every department. Guys of Thesz size and wrestling style have won ladder matches in the current era while those of Vader's size have never even been booked in one unless it is a multi man match and does not require them to do much climbing.

Vote for Thesz!!!

 

[IrishCanadian25]

Humor me this. If Hulk Hogan faces Chris Masters, Carlito, R-Truth, Wade Barrett and Drew McIntyre in an Elimination Chamber match are you going to vote against Hulk Hogan just because he has never been in an EC match as opposed to the other guys? That logic will very frankly be insane. Just because the match was ahead of Hogan's time does not mean that he will not win it.

First off, you're killin' me, smalls. No beer for you in the ICE Lounge.

That aside, your Elimination Chamber comparison is foolish for the following reasons:

1. Vader is not exactly Chris Masters, Carlito, R-Truth, Wade Barrett and Drew McIntyre.

2. Hogan at least had experience in 1) steel cages, 2) no dq, no count out matches. He knew how to prepare differently for gimmick / specialty matches. A guy coming after him with a chair, ladder, ring bell, etc. wasn't foreign to him. It's the concept of having to prepare for a match type that goes completely against what you've trained to do for 50 years that handicaps Thesz here, not the idea that climbing a ladder is a concept he wouldn't be able to grasp.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

I need to make a very important post to clarify something about the stipulation of the match. A lot of Thesz-supporters are (as they have been doing a lot this match) trying to misdirect voters with this concept that the ladder is a simple concept. Indeed it is. But it's hardly my point.

Thesz debuted in 1932 and retired in 1979 from full time wrestling. He wrestled a final match in 1990. I have no record on any of the sites I've checked that describe Thesz working a no-dq, hardcore, cage, or other sort of gimmick match aside from "best out of 3 falls," which was a fair occassion for title matches in the "olden days."

For 47 damn years, Thesz got into the ring with the objective of controlling, wrestling, and stretching his opponent until he was able to earn a pinfall or get his opponent to submit. He was the best in the world at it, no question.

At no point in time did a promoter approach Lou Thesz and say to him "Your next match is going to be a <insert match type here> match. There are NO pinfalls, there are NO submissions, and there are NO disqualifications or count-outs. And, instead of trying to pin YOU, your opponent who happens to be a 450-lb man who can moonsault, is going to be coming at you with a 15-ft ladder, steel chairs, and whatever else he can dream up. So you'll need to adjust your style a bit. So, yeah, good luck Lou!"

If Dan Gable, collegiate wrestling legend and olympic gold medalist who never worked a pro match in his life, was suddenly told "okay, in this match, you're not going to earn points or pin your opponent. The object is to be the first one to climb that rope and ring that bell..." he'd freak because all of his career's work and preparation went into learning the most effective ways to turn and pin or earn enough points on opponents to win.

You cannot legitimately expect such a drastic change in the basic rules of professional wrestling to not adversely affect a man who spent time in 7 different decades doing something a particular way with a particular outcome.

Thesz is out of his element, not because he doesn't understand the concept of climbing a ladder, but because he'll be ill-prepared to handle a match where his convention wisdom is rendered useless.

 

[JXL]

I don't want to get in between the war of words with Irish and Gelgarin, as both have made solid points about why their favorite should go over. I'll just say my vote and hide in the bushes until they finish. I voted for Vader because he has more of the edge in hardcore type matches than Thesz and has the ability in strength and factor in his ruthlessness to take down Thesz and climb the ladder and win. Please don't lecture me on histories, I just went for my opinion, not that it means a thing...

My vote: Vader

 

[D-Man]

I vote Vader here.

I respect the accomplishments of Lou Thesz. Hell, I'm an advocate of old school wrestling. But I can't let Thesz go over here.

People view ladder matches, see a superheavyweight, and automatically scream "He can't win! He's big and fat and big and fat people don't climb ladders!!" It's already been proved that Kane won a MITB ladder match so that point is stupid.

But what about Thesz's masterful in-ring, shooting skill? Last I checked, ladder matches had no rules. Vader would pick up that ladder and beat Lou Thesz to a bloody pulp. Thesz's strong points are in shoot-wrestling. A ladder match is a kayfabe dream who's present use has passed up Thesz's day and age. It's like saying that the inventor of the automobile can easily fly an airplane. When you take Vader's ruthlessness, power, agility, and merciless onslaught, add a ladder and no rules, you've got a recipe for just about every legend of the sport to fall to him.

I see a very even ground game and a very neutral, first 15 minutes of a match. Then, once the ladder is in play, I see Vader pulvarizing Thesz to the point where shoot wrestling won't help him in any way. As Thesz gasps for his last breath, Vader trots to the top of the ladder and grabs a victory.

Vader wins here, clearly.

 

[Hulk Hogan's Brother]

People view ladder matches, see a superheavyweight, and automatically scream "He can't win! He's big and fat and big and fat people don't climb ladders!!" It's already been proved that Kane won a MITB ladder match so that point is stupid.

WOW why don't you argue that even Undertaker has won a ladder match and so superheavyweights win ladder matches all the time. Kane and Undertaker are not SHW's and have never been referenced as such. A guy above 400 pounds is a superheavyweight in pro wrestling, not Kane and Undertaker. Hell Batista was almost their weight? Now is he a superheavyweight.

Look, Kane and Big Show both participated in the same match. They made a huge deal about how Big Show would be able to climb the ladder and how he had used a special ladder to overcome that disadvantage. That was not how Kane was built up. Kane has been in a number of ladder matches till date and not once has it ever been said that Kane would not be able to climb the ladder because of his size. Why? Because he is NOT A SUPERHEAVYWEIGHT!

But what about Thesz's masterful in-ring, shooting skill? Last I checked, ladder matches had no rules. Vader would pick up that ladder and beat Lou Thesz to a bloody pulp. Thesz's strong points are in shoot-wrestling. A ladder match is a kayfabe dream who's present use has passed up Thesz's day and age. It's like saying that the inventor of the automobile can easily fly an airplane. When you take Vader's ruthlessness, power, agility, and merciless onslaught, add a ladder and no rules, you've got a recipe for just about every legend of the sport to fall to him.

So now using a ladder for the first time is the same as flying an aeroplane without training? How about Thesz avoiding Vader's attacks or is that unimaginable. How about Thesz using a ladder himself and maybe showing us new ways to use a ladder? How about Vader's injured knee which Thesz can easily smash up with a ladder.

Thesz is almost the inventor of modern day pro wrestling when there was no such concept around. I am sure he will get the hang of how to use a ladder. Also he will come in prepared for this match. I like how IC is trying to drive home the fact that Thesz will be informed 15 minutes before the match about this new match type.

I see a very even ground game and a very neutral, first 15 minutes of a match. Then, once the ladder is in play, I see Vader pulvarizing Thesz to the point where shoot wrestling won't help him in any way. As Thesz gasps for his last breath, Vader trots to the top of the ladder and grabs a victory.

Vader wins here, clearly.

Shoot wrestling is certainly Thesz's strong point but not his only strength as you are trying to make out. Thesz is pretty fast and also an inventor. Vader has the disadvantage of being too big and having a bad knee. Thesz is just inexperienced and that can be overcome by good preparation.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

Hey Rattlesnake, where are you getting this data that a SHW is 400+ lbs? Please cite your source, because that number is FAR higher than I am used to seeing described for an SHW.

Also, where did I say "15 minutes?" In the concept of this tournament, there are several days between matches, with the exception of the final 3 rounds. Still, do you think it takes days, weeks, or even months to un-learn almost a half-century of training?

EDIT:

Vader has the disadvantage of being too big and having a bad knee. Thesz is just inexperienced and that can be overcome by good preparation.

So you're saying that un-doing 5 decades of learning can be cured by 'good preparation' and a banged up knee can't be cured with...tape?

 

[Tastycles]

Looks like Vader's going to win. I've spent too long in the past trying to get Santo over to waste any more time on an absolutely futile pursuit, so this will almost certainly be my last post in this thread.

One of the mega-criticisms of the Bret Hart vs Shawn Michaels Ironman match at Wrestlemania 12 is that it was more than half rest-holds. I do not, in any way, claim to have seen every Lou Thesz match ever nor every match from his era. But those matches that I have seen show an abundance of submission style rest holds like armbars and hammerlocks. Now don't get me wrong - I enjoy technical style mat wrestling where the competitors played to the crowd in a simple, logical manner. At the same time, I also recognize that with the advent of weekly shows (some of them live) and additional PPV's, the action with modern wrestlers moves far faster and with greater intensity than it ever has before. Stating that Lou Thesz wrestled nightly, and often for 30+ minutes, is all well and good, but you cannot compare the pace of those matches to today's action. Furthermore, Vader was known for his high impact offense and his ability to, when needed, keep up with a pushed-pace. It's one of the things that's helped make him an all time great in Japan.

Why is being held in a submission hold any less painful or detrimental than heavy offence? If you hit someone hard, you will hurt them, but if you put people in legitimate holds, as happened to Thesz, then they will suffer injuries that will last longer, such as muscle pulls etc. Michaels vs Hart is criticised for being boring, not unrealistic. The concept of the rest hold is a bullshit modern wrestling thing that tries to excuse the completely unrealistic style of today's wrestling. I can tell you I'd rather be dropkicked and clotheslined for 5 minutes rather than have my limbs stretched out of position for 35.

Furthermore, one important fact I have to state. Lou Thesz won so much because of a largely ignored factor, and that is integrity. In Thesz's day, professional wrestling was still considered real and the protection of the business and of 'kayfabe' was like old school Mafia-style 'Omerta.' One of the things I've always respected about Thesz is his unwavering integrity for the business and how he did, in fact, handle the guys whose egos got bigger than the business. Thesz held the titles for the length of time he did for several reasons, including his dependability and integrity. In the 90's, that stalwart protection of the business had all but evaporated, and Big Van Vader still won World Titles in 4 countries against an overall greater cast of opponents. I put more stock in all of Vader's multi-national title reigns than I do Thesz's NWA run.

It's certainly true that integrity played a part, but don't be fooled that it wasn't down to the bottom line - his drawing and popularity. Vader has never been the main man anywhere, because he isn't as marketable as Thesz. If it was all about integrity, then it would have passed to Gagne, a man who proved his ability as a champion subsequently, but it didn't. The audience wanted Thesz and they got him.

Vader's most high profile gimmick matches were: 1) a Texas Death Match victory over Cactus Jack at Halloween Havoc, 2) a White Castle of Fear Strap Match against Sting at Superbrawl 3, and 3) a steel cage match against Hulk Hogan. Vader was 2-1 in those three matches, losing only to Hogan, but kicking out of Hogan's leg drop at a one-count in the process.

What possible justification could you have for picking the Foley match? Foley's record in WCW was abysmal. He was an absolute nobody going nowhere doing amnesia angles. He may have ended up being a big deal, but in 1994 he was just a violent sideshow. Fighting Ric Flair for the world title is in every way shape and form a bigger match than this.

You cannot seriously be using the "Vader lost to Shamrock" and "Vader lost to Bradshaw" arguments in the awfully booked later months of Vader's WWF career. That's a huge reason Vader left WWF to go back to Japan. Admittedly, Vader is a guy who was considered to work "too stiff," and a lot of WWF guys didn't like that, including Mr. Michaels.

This is precisely why he wouldn't do well in this match, which is in North America. American audiences don't like his style, and the only time he hasn't been an afterthought in the US and Canada was during WCW's Japanese experimentation phase.

When Thesz was wrestling at 70, he was wrestling in lesser promotions as a name-based attraction. Sorta like Flair is doing now. Don't blame Vader because Thesz didn't know when to walk away.

Ladies and Gentlemen, what you have here is categorical proof that Vader is a "lesser work". For you see, these "lesser promotions" that Thesz was fighting and winning in are the promotions that Vader won the majority of his titles in -NJPW and UWA.

And also, Thesz didn't know when to walk away? Do me a favour.

You're laying on the ground, and a guy is jumping on top of you with a splash. Who do you think would do more damage? Thesz or Vader? The answer is Vader, because of his weight. With that weight also comes immense power and strength. Thesz may well have been a stronger man pound-for-pound, but he is literally half the size Vader is. Weight, power, strength ALL play a role in a professional wrestling match, and all three favor Vader.

You: Vader's twice as heavy, he can hit Thesz with the ladder twice as hard
Me: That's not how it works, weight plays no part in swinging a ladder, it's about strength
You: Weight matters in professional wrestling.

Taking my posts out of context is beneath you, or at least it should be, don't do it.

Are you serious? Vader is a MONSTER, even at 450. Maybe he doesn't get the credit because he rarely wrestled anyone his size, but Vader manhandled a 600+ pound Yokozuna with a series of high impact power-based offenses. What are you basing this "Vader wasn't particularly strong for his size" argument off of, by the way?

The fact he rarely, if ever, was noted for his strength. Compare that to someone like Big John Studd, whose strength was *********ed over like nobodies business.

It was called humor, try it sometime. You really are the Lance Storm of the forums, aren't you?

I only laugh at things that are funny.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

Looks like Vader's going to win. I've spent too long in the past trying to get Santo over to waste any more time on an absolutely futile pursuit, so this will almost certainly be my last post in this thread.

I won't take anything for granted. It's only Monday, polls close Thursday. We'll all get tired of making the same points long before them though.

Why is being held in a submission hold any less painful or detrimental than heavy offence? If you hit someone hard, you will hurt them, but if you put people in legitimate holds, as happened to Thesz, then they will suffer injuries that will last longer, such as muscle pulls etc.

No question about it. At the same time, though, Thesz will have to voluntarilly break the hold in order to win the match, which means Vader will always have a chance to save it. Again - I will not, no matter what, put down Thesz's skill or how dangerous he is. I have enough confidence in Vader to not have to resort to diminutizing the opponent here. I simply have more faith in Vader's ability to beat Thesz to a point where he is unable to stop Vader from climbing the ladder than I have for Thesz to be able to stop Vader.

Michaels vs Hart is criticised for being boring, not unrealistic. The concept of the rest hold is a bullshit modern wrestling thing that tries to excuse the completely unrealistic style of today's wrestling. I can tell you I'd rather be dropkicked and clotheslined for 5 minutes rather than have my limbs stretched out of position for 35.

I unquestionably agree with you. It's why MMA is gaining in popularity. But we're discussing pro wrestling here, and you accurately use the term "modern." The ladder match is a modern match, and one in which Thesz and his 35-minute stretch holds are overmatched.

It's certainly true that integrity played a part, but don't be fooled that it wasn't down to the bottom line - his drawing and popularity. Vader has never been the main man anywhere, because he isn't as marketable as Thesz. If it was all about integrity, then it would have passed to Gagne, a man who proved his ability as a champion subsequently, but it didn't. The audience wanted Thesz and they got him.

Some of the many things I like about both Thesz and Gagne.

And you're right, Vader isn't a magnificent draw. Monster heels rarely are, really. Andre drew his best houses when he was a babyface giant and when he was paired with Hogan. Austin and The Rock, though the rose as heels, drew their best money as faces. Same with Hogan with the nWo exception. And Vader would have been an awful top babyface, I think.

What possible justification could you have for picking the Foley match?

That was a HUGE match for its time. It main evented Halloween Havoc that year and wasn't even a title match. Vader's title wasn't on the line. It was noteworthy because it was against Vader that Foley's ear was torn off, and it was Vader who powerbombed Foley on concrete to launch the (admittedly awful) amnesia angle. But the revenge factor for Foley was huge, and Vader still won.

Foley's record in WCW was abysmal.

I didn't really track win-loss records, especially not in 1992-94. Sorry, not something I kept track of. I thought this was pro wrestling, not MMA...

He was an absolute nobody going nowhere doing amnesia angles.

He was still a Hardcore mainstay, dude, and you know it. He wasn't yet the draw or the crowd influence he became, but Cactus Jack in the 90's was as brutal as anyone's ever been in the US.

He may have ended up being a big deal, but in 1994 he was just a violent sideshow.

And World Champ Vader managed to out-violence the violent sideshow in a violent match.

Fighting Ric Flair for the world title is in every way shape and form a bigger match than this.

You'd think so, right? But the Flair match gets completely buried in the Hogan arrival. Fact is fact dude. I thought the Vader / Flair match was awesome, and that Vader did a great job putting Flair over (just as Flair did putting Vader over), but it was all about Hogan's arrival and subsequent championship run. I think that reign of Flair's gets totally forgotten.

This is precisely why he wouldn't do well in this match, which is in North America. American audiences don't like his style, and the only time he hasn't been an afterthought in the US and Canada was during WCW's Japanese experimentation phase.

I disagree. I think Vader was a very big deal prior to the US / Japan phase. Again, I reference Vader's prime from 1991-1994. The mere fact that Vader was a multiple time champion in both countries is certainly noteworthy.

Ladies and Gentlemen, what you have here is categorical proof that Vader is a "lesser work". For you see, these "lesser promotions" that Thesz was fighting and winning in are the promotions that Vader won the majority of his titles in -NJPW and UWA.

Note - Vader would work the NJPW and UWA concurrently with WCW, the 2nd biggest promotion in the world at the time, and often worked as champion of two of the promotions at the same time. There's a big difference. If someone were both the WWE champion and the ROH champion right now, or both the WWE and AJPW champion right now, that would be on par with what Vader was doing.

And also, Thesz didn't know when to walk away? Do me a favour.

I was also being hyperbolic. I can't see videos at work, I'll check it out when I get home. And why can you spell favor with a 'u' but people go batshit when I spell Seamus without the 'h'? Limey double fucking standard.

You: Vader's twice as heavy, he can hit Thesz with the ladder twice as hard
Me: That's not how it works, weight plays no part in swinging a ladder, it's about strength
You: Weight matters in professional wrestling.

Taking my posts out of context is beneath you, or at least it should be, don't do it.

What's with all this "that's beneath you" stuff lately? I mean, I appreciate the compliments, but it's not like I can't fight dirty when I need to.

Anyway, my intent was not to take your posts out of context. I see you claim that weight is immaterial in this match, and I balked because it's certainly not. But I do maintain that Vader's size and strength gives him a great deal more momentum / inertia with a weapon. Just wait until Thesz is in the corner up against the ladder and Vader avalanches him. Ouch.

The fact he rarely, if ever, was noted for his strength. Compare that to someone like Big John Studd, whose strength was *********ed over like nobodies business.

Just because it wasn't 'noted' doesn't mean it didn't exist! Vader's power was often a given because of how big and strong he was, but the shock with him was the agility and brutality, so that became his legacy. Big John Studd ONLY had his strength. Vader was, and you'll pardon the term, a total package.

I only laugh at things that are funny.

If I can be serious here for a moment...