Calgary Region, Third Round: Ladder: (4) Vader vs. (5) Lou Thesz

Discussion in 'Calgary Region' started by klunderbunker, Mar 10, 2011.

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Who Wins This Match

  1. Vader

  2. Lou Thesz

Multiple votes are allowed.
Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. Tastycles

    Tastycles Turn Bayley heel

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    STF - Not what John Cena does, but a hold which in the words of the same site that you are using as a credible source "The wrestler then pulls back stretching the opponent's back, neck, and knee." Knee is a part of the leg. After common sense 101, you might want to try biology.

    How many superheavyweights have won ladder matches? Zero.
    How many submission specialists have won ladder matches? Also zero.

    Oh wait

    [​IMG]
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    Now, when you say everyone do you actually mean everyone except Ric Flair? Or do you mean everyone except Ric Flair and Hulk Hogan? Or do you mean everyone except Marvellous Marc Mero? Or are you just completely wrong?

    1) I addressed diving splash when I said he wouldn't have the necessary leaping ability. If he falls, as with all his other aerial moves (notice how he never hits moves very far away from the turnbuckle), then he's going to twat his shins on the ladder. Don't mention the moonsault, he doesn't have a great leap on that either, and springs off the ropes, like just about everyone who uses that move does.

    2) Vader never hit a diving splash in his lif. If you are adding that move to his repertoire, I am adding the Lou Thesz patented existential ladder toss to his. Basically, Thesz is capable of throwing a ladder at such a force that it opens on impact, knocking his opponent down and then pinning them in such a manner that they cannot retaliate before strolling up the ladder for the win.

    Of course, he's never done it, but why should that matter?

    Fictitious diving splash aside, this is ridiculous. The Vader argument is getting increasingly reliant on the idea that he decimated everyone he fought. History dictates otherwise, hence why Sting is the only high profile American wrestler he has clear cut victories over. It's not that he didn't face the likes of Hulk Hogan and Ric Flair, it's just that he didn't beat them.

    Flair is probably the most old school guy Vader ever thought, and he repeatedly and decisively beat Vader. If that's not reason enough to see Vader cannot always do what is required to beat major stars, I don't know what is.


    Thinking that a man who lost half of the matches he ever wrestled would beat Lou Thesz is not only dismissive of Thesz, but of basic wrestling history.

    How does that show more about Vader? In the modern game, stiffness is popular in Japan, it's why Vader wrestled there. However limited Hansen was at restraint and protecting his opponent, somebody who is legitimately trying
    to break bones is going to be hitting you harder. Surely that's obvious to anyone with eyes, whether or not they are hanging out the socket.

    It's a pretty standard Vader argument, and I'm neutralising it before it happens. But more to the point here, I am demonstrating the persistent toughness that Thesz would have had to and did have.
    I assume you mean what's the point in Thesz coming back? It's because he was one of the most popular wrestlers of all time and because the people wanted to see him, something that doesn't happen to Big Van Footnote.


    When is Vader's prime then? The defeats mentioned mostly happened in the first year of his WWF career. If he was never in his prime there, we can look to WCW were he was getting caned by Ric Flair regularly and losing to Davey Boy Smith. If we're looking at Japan, we can look at his defeats to Riki Choshu, a 6 foot tall legitimate wrestler turned professional wrestler. Face it, Vader has lost wherever he's been as much as he has won. I mentioned those people because I assumed Vader wasn't finished at 40 years old, but apparently, he was.


    Is professional wrestling divided into weight classes? No. Did I say that Thesz was as as strong as Vader? No. I said that he was stronger than their weight differential suggests.

    Right. The faster wrestler (Thesz) is more likely to hit with the ladder first. Why is a fat man more resilient than a honed athlete? This is where their typical match length is noteworthy. If Vader gets to 15 minutes without winning, he almost always loses, because he cannot recuperate very well. If Thesz goes past 15 minutes, as he almost always did, his conditioning helped him to win. That conditioning will help him recover better than Vader could ever hope to.
    IC brought it up, not me. It's what happens when you're clutching at straws, as anyone supporting Vader has to be.

    Remember when I showed brutality doesn't help in a ladder match? It wasn't very long ago. Experience in gimmick matches is meaningless. If it was a match where previous experience helps, maybe, but it's not. Very few gimmicks give any real benefit to people that have done them before. The cell and chamber are perhaps the only ones.

    Edge and Benoit are not particularly brutal in their style, far more methodical, you rarely see either being ruthless. I've addressed Taker and Triple H, Abyss has lost more ladder matches than he has won.
    Or is it because it is irrefutable evidence that the basis of your argument is flawed?

    Didn't say it did. I didn't bring brutality into this, that was a Team Vader argument, and it I showed why it is a shit one. Not to mention that most of the brutal wrestlers you list to have won a match are either not brutal or did so with mitigating circumstances.

    Is zero more than zero? There's one for the mathematical philosophers to ponder. For now, lets say neither has experience in this kind of match.

    No it isn't. Firstly, Jeff Hardy was not billed predominately as a hardcore expert, always as an agile quick wrestler. Secondly, the fact that Mick Foley lost a ladder match to the Big Bossman should probably indicate that hardcore experience doesn't help.
    Only one of which has won a ladder match. He is however, quite similar in size and arguably style to CM Punk, who has won three of his four ladder matches.


    Well, no, actually do they not teach Physics in America or something?

    That means if either man pushes the other one, they are likely to lose their own footing. Now, could Vader throw Thesz off the ladder if they were both on it? Yes. Would Vader be able to reach the top of a ladder Thesz was already on before Thesz uncoupled the object? No. Would Thesz climb a ladder Vader was already on when he could easily push it over as we have seen? No, so that ability is useless.

    [YOUTUBE]EMBngZOr6VY[/YOUTUBE]

    Sting + Christian Cage = Vader, in terms of weight roughly speaking. If a battered, bruised and tired Earl Hebner can push over a ladder with that weight at the top over without any difficulty, I think we can consider this point officially wrong.

    He's been just under 300 for most of his career, even if he was over, it would be by an insignificant amount, not as much as Vader.
    Not including MITB, Big Show and Malice were both pretty sizeable, as was Tor Kamata. They all lost. The main reason men like this don't have ladder matches is because nobody would buy something where they have to move quickly up a ladder to win. On the rare occasions that they do have matches like this, they lose.

    Because the laws of physics are constant. Also, The Big Show is bigger than Vader and has lost ladder matches.

    Not very many in the top bracket of wrestlers.

    This is such a shit argument it is untrue. The fact you think it helps you actually makes me feel sorry for you a little bit, seriously. If this was a real tournament, that would be the outcome every year, because that is what the paying audience would want to see. Guys like Vader would probably go deep into the tournament, squashing insignificant faces until they met a huge star like Thesz or Cena or Hogan or even Flair, at which point they would lose.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centre_of_gravity

    Jesus Christ. Firstly, you aren't lifting, you are pushing. Secondly, this should be pretty intuitive to everyone. An object falls over when its centre of mass is no longer over its base. A heavier man up a ladder is going to have a higher centre of mass, which means that you only have to push it a little bit so that it is no longer over the centre of its mass. I direct you again to the Earl Hebner video. A weedy gimp who had just taken a shot easily pushes a ladder with a lot of mass on it over.

    I haven't got my mechanics notes with me, but hopefully this will suffice and you will stop denying physics. The centre of mass is determined by integrating the total mass over the entire area of the structure and finding the midpoint. For something like a straight line, this is easy, but I am not good enough at maths to work the full equation out in my bedroom at 4 o'clock in the morning for a complicated system. The point at which it is no longer over the point of contact is a simple case of determining the angle of tilt. This is determined using the co-sine rule - you know the distance to the mid point and up to the centre of mass, so you can determine the angle.

    Look, this is true, face the fact it is true, and take your head out of the sand. To prove it to yourself, balance something that can reasonably easily be stood on its side. Now attach some blu tack to the top and try and balance it again. It will be harder, because of exactly the same principals. I'm not going to discuss something that has been commonly known for hundreds of years any further.

    None where it's completely incapacitated them, but plenty where it is a part of a gradual weardown. Jericho on Benoit at Royal Rumble 2001 was a good example of how a big submission move can help.

    John Cena's move is called STF because STFU is a funny name. The move is not an STF.


    This is so wrong and so stupid it's attrocious.

    Non-impactful? Are you ******ed? How is stiff hits and suplexes non-impactful, whatever impactful means. If Thesz's repetoire is non impactful, then so is Bret Hart's, Chris Benoit's and Chris Jericho's. All of whom have won ladder matches.

    The fact you are trying to use the word impactful in a scientific discussion is putting you onto a loser. The fact you think a backdrop implies no force implies you know nothing about wrestling or physics.
     
    #26
  2. The Other Hardy Brother

    The Other Hardy Brother Occasional Pre-Show

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    I'm not gonna go into extreme detail about how disgusted I am about how Vader is losing right now in a ladder match to a guy who probably doesn't even know what a ladder is. Let alone how to use one to win a wrestling match. All Vader would have to do is take the ladder and beat Thesz with it till he didn't get up. That's not illegal is it. Then as long as the ladder didn't break under him he could take as long as his fat ass wants to climb up and get the whatever is hanging up there. If it did break, well Big Show had a special ladder so im sure we could spring one for Vader.

    I mean god this is more lopsided than Austin/Punk
     
    #27
  3. Little Jerry Lawler

    Little Jerry Lawler Sigmund Freud On Ritalin And Roids

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    I'm pretty sure they had ladders back in Thesz's day. Call it a hunch.

    All Thesz would have to do is beat Vader with it until he didn't get up. It's not that hard.

    Big Show didn't even win the match with the special ladder.
     
    #28
  4. TheOneBigWill

    TheOneBigWill [This Space for Rent]

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    I'm only making this post because the poll is so close. My vote is going to Vader.

    I know very little about Thesz and I'm sure many who support him will be upset that I so easily put my vote in the hands of the guy I know, over the guy I didn't even give a chance to know. Well, several have done that to guy(s) I support - so shit happens, and it's a vicious cycle, all I can say is the same thing that's been said it me. Get over it.

    My vote for Vader isn't solely because I don't know Thesz alone. I know Vader. I know Vader's style, and anyone who's posted in here with the logic that the bigger guy will get winded and be unable to climb is another reason why my vote is even more enforced toward him. That type of logic is incredibly simple minded and quite simply bad. (I want, badly, to say stupid - but I'm trying to be respectful)

    Vader has more power than Thesz based on the limited (as in 2-3) matches I've seen Thesz in. Another thing is Thesz has been more methodical in his style. Vader is going to be lulled into a coma, he's going to come at you with his power and strength advantage and beat the shit out of you. In a match without rules, not to mention with a weapon such as a ladder, Vader is only that much more deadly. He's going to cripple you with the devices around him.

    Has Thesz even been involved in anything regarding a situation where he needs to climb? I mean, has he even climbed the turnbuckles, much less a ladder match that likely wasn't around during his era. This is something completely out of his element and he won't know how to handle it, much less the 450+ lbs monster that will be trying to hurt him as much as possible.
     
    #29
  5. UltimateHitman

    UltimateHitman Old School Legend

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    Tasty and Gelgarin have both been tearing it up in here, so I'm not even going to interject on those matters. I just have a quick little tidbit to point out.

    Why are people talking about ladders as if they are some kind of exotic artifact not many people have experience with?

    I wasn't around when Thesz wrestled, but I'd venture to say that at some point in his life he did some housework or something and it required him to climb a freakin' ladder.

    It's a ladder. Normal, average, every day people use ladders. Just because it's in a ring doesn't mean that the basic principle of climbing a ladder somehow changes to some mystical feat only achieved by intensive training at a monastery in Tibet.

    Simply put? It's a f__king ladder, not a Chinese ring puzzle or a Rubik's cube.
     
    #30
  6. TheOneBigWill

    TheOneBigWill [This Space for Rent]

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    UH, how many times have you done yardwork in which when you've climbed a ladder you've had someone trying to constantly knock you off 'said' ladder? Do you have Family that just absolutely refuse for you to reach the gutter? Perhaps your neighbor can't stand the color you're trying to re-paint your house, and they're constantly trying to push the ladder over?

    Yeah, I'm sure the crazy invention better known as "The Ladder" was around when Thesz was alive. No, I do not believe he's had to do any climbing of such device, when someone was constantly trying to wrap his limbs around, or in, such a device.

    You're absolutely right - the objective is as simple and clear cut as can be. You climb in a vertical direction, you take down the object at the top. Winner, winner, chicken dinner.

    However, the discussion is a bit more advanced than.. "Can this person climb a ladder?" And somehow you've been torn into believing that's all people who're voting against Thesz with the idea he hasn't been in ladder matches have to say. It isn't about knowing how to climb, it's about knowing how to survive when someone is refusing to LET you climb.

    Vader isn't a tooth pick. He isn't some push over. And he damn sure isn't going to be intimidated by a.. press. :suspic: He's going to hurt you, and hurt you badly. My guess is he likely won't even try to climb all that often. He'll just enjoy hurting until he's bored enough from that, that he finally wants to advance.
     
    #31
  7. hatehabsforever

    hatehabsforever Moderator
    Staff Member Moderator

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    I gave the slight edge to Vader in this one. He was a very dominant big man back in his heyday, and he was surprisingly agile for a man of his tremendous size. I don't see the ladder match stipulation providing him any problem whatsoever. Sure, it is somewhat of a foreign concept for him, but I would imagine it is even more foreign a notion to a Lou Thesz, or anyone else from his generation for that matter. I think Vader would be able to exert his power wrestling style on Thesz, incapacitating him, and then he would be able to climb the ladder with ease.

    It won't be an easy match, but I see Vader as the one moving on to the next round.
     
    #32
  8. Muffin Top Merkley

    Muffin Top Merkley Be a man!

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    I don't really agree with the argument that Thesz is out of his element when competing in Ladder matches - It's only a ladder match, not an Ultimate X match or anything to that extinct. To win a ladder match, you need to put your opponent out long enough for you to climb up a ladder and retreive an object.

    My vote goes to who can deliver enough punishment to keep their opponent down for the length of time it takes to set up a ladder, climb it, and get the object. And as tough of a man as Lou Thesz was, I believe that Vader would be able to deliver more of an intense, hard-hitting, brutal attack, taking Thesz out of the match so he can retreive the object.
     
    #33
  9. IrishCanadian25

    IrishCanadian25 Going on 10 years with WrestleZone

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    Well, it looks like I have quite a bit of responding (and campaigning) to do, with the score tied at 35. Once again, a match that started off with IC25 vs Gelgarin in a wrestling debate will likely have no clear winner, regardless of what the votes say at the end.

    I figured. You certainly get a pass. Lord knows I've needed one some nights more than others.

    One of the mega-criticisms of the Bret Hart vs Shawn Michaels Ironman match at Wrestlemania 12 is that it was more than half rest-holds. I do not, in any way, claim to have seen every Lou Thesz match ever nor every match from his era. But those matches that I have seen show an abundance of submission style rest holds like armbars and hammerlocks. Now don't get me wrong - I enjoy technical style mat wrestling where the competitors played to the crowd in a simple, logical manner. At the same time, I also recognize that with the advent of weekly shows (some of them live) and additional PPV's, the action with modern wrestlers moves far faster and with greater intensity than it ever has before. Stating that Lou Thesz wrestled nightly, and often for 30+ minutes, is all well and good, but you cannot compare the pace of those matches to today's action. Furthermore, Vader was known for his high impact offense and his ability to, when needed, keep up with a pushed-pace. It's one of the things that's helped make him an all time great in Japan.

    Furthermore, one important fact I have to state. Lou Thesz won so much because of a largely ignored factor, and that is integrity. In Thesz's day, professional wrestling was still considered real and the protection of the business and of 'kayfabe' was like old school Mafia-style 'Omerta.' One of the things I've always respected about Thesz is his unwavering integrity for the business and how he did, in fact, handle the guys whose egos got bigger than the business. Thesz held the titles for the length of time he did for several reasons, including his dependability and integrity. In the 90's, that stalwart protection of the business had all but evaporated, and Big Van Vader still won World Titles in 4 countries against an overall greater cast of opponents. I put more stock in all of Vader's multi-national title reigns than I do Thesz's NWA run.

    Vader's most high profile gimmick matches were: 1) a Texas Death Match victory over Cactus Jack at Halloween Havoc, 2) a White Castle of Fear Strap Match against Sting at Superbrawl 3, and 3) a steel cage match against Hulk Hogan. Vader was 2-1 in those three matches, losing only to Hogan, but kicking out of Hogan's leg drop at a one-count in the process.

    You cannot seriously be using the "Vader lost to Shamrock" and "Vader lost to Bradshaw" arguments in the awfully booked later months of Vader's WWF career. That's a huge reason Vader left WWF to go back to Japan. Admittedly, Vader is a guy who was considered to work "too stiff," and a lot of WWF guys didn't like that, including Mr. Michaels.

    When Thesz was wrestling at 70, he was wrestling in lesser promotions as a name-based attraction. Sorta like Flair is doing now. Don't blame Vader because Thesz didn't know when to walk away.

    You're laying on the ground, and a guy is jumping on top of you with a splash. Who do you think would do more damage? Thesz or Vader? The answer is Vader, because of his weight. With that weight also comes immense power and strength. Thesz may well have been a stronger man pound-for-pound, but he is literally half the size Vader is. Weight, power, strength ALL play a role in a professional wrestling match, and all three favor Vader.

    Are you serious? Vader is a MONSTER, even at 450. Maybe he doesn't get the credit because he rarely wrestled anyone his size, but Vader manhandled a 600+ pound Yokozuna with a series of high impact power-based offenses. What are you basing this "Vader wasn't particularly strong for his size" argument off of, by the way?

    It was called humor, try it sometime. You really are the Lance Storm of the forums, aren't you? ;)

    I never made it out to be a sexual relationship. You did that yourself.

    Thank god for small favors.

    I think you're both over-rating this so-called Physics lesson. Vader is strong enough to push far enough away, but whatever, it's moot anyway. You take one maneuver that I dreamed up in an opening post away. You know what, it'd be more effective for Vader to lay Thesz either under, on top of, or in the middle of a ladder and hit the Vader bomb from the corner as he normally would. Your attempts to use physics to divert voters from the real argument - the fact that Thesz would be rolled over by the runaway train that is Big Van Vader - is, as I often call it, 'smoke and mirrors.'

    You thought that was MEAN!? You should hear the shit I say to D-Man and NorCal when we watch PPV's. Or maybe we just have senses of humor and thicker skins.

    Yes, and yet that did not stop him from being among the most agile, fast, and impressive competitors in professional wrestling. Bill deMott is fat, and yet he's able to pull off an impressive array of vertical and arial moves. It doesn't take a six-pack of abs to be athletic. Stop stereotyping.

    I don't know many skinny contractors. Jussayin'. :) Oops, sorry, that was a joke again. I gather by the posts I am responding to that this is to be a very serious debate. A lot on the line here. Let me regain composure...

    Vader dominated in 4 countries in an era where 1) the overall athletic ability of professional wrestling was far greater, 2) the need to have a faster paced and unique match grew, and 3) the differences between the cultural valuation of professional wrestling was wider than it had ever been before.

    The fact that Vader managed to get over and be a multiple time World Heavyweight Champion in both the United States AND Japan is a damn impressive feat, even more so because he did it in the 90's.

    Seriously, dude? You don't think the mind-set and preparation is different when you're preparing for a hardcore match vs a technical wrestling match? You don't think a technical mat wrestler would be affected when he was told "ok, so in this next match against the 450-lb guy, um, those pinfalls and submissions that you've trained for all your life are useless, and he's going to come at you swinging ladders and chairs, and that's all legal?"

    Thesz has a reputation as a tremendous mat wrestler, not a high flyer. I'm not saying there's something wrong with that. Oh, and your cute little "habit of missing flying moves" comment? You are conveniently leaving out Vader's pesky habit of HITTING flying moves and putting guys down and out with them. When he did miss high risk moves, he rebounded better than most.

    You keep trying to compare the opponents Thesz faced at house show after house show to the professional athletes Vader wrestled in the US, Japan, Mexico, and Germany in the 90's. Go ahead and make the argument that steroids had totally changed the game in the 80's and 90's - Vader wrestled guys who were juiced like crazy and still won World Titles everywhere he went.

    You're just like the crazy old-school baseball fans who somehow think that Albert Pujols isn't as good as Babe Ruth when Pujols is hitting off of world-class pitchers vs Ruth who hit towering shots off of guys who would be bagging groceries if they pitched today.

    Again, you're trying to confuse people by focusing on the last months of Vader's poorly booked WWF career. That's like someone saying "Ric Flair won't win this match, he lost to Kenny Dykstra." I am well aware that Lou Thesz only lost to some of the all time greats, and in the right way. I get it. Again, though, in the pre-TV era Thesz was in, he could wrestle the same match with the same guy night after night and every live crowd would think it was unique. Vader had a totally different challenge to keep the poduct fresh.

    Again, I didn't bring it up. It's weird - I brought that up 3 or 4 years ago in the tournament and it became some sort of WZ sensation. It's a neat footnote to what was a tremendous rivalry, but it's not the only reason Vader was so tough.

    This argument is stupid. It has no basis in reality. It's random and arbitrary. Vader was booked as a big, strong, tough monster heel. Nowhere was he booked as "stupid." You're making it sound like losing his temper equates him to being ******ed. It's foolish.

    Vader, despite occassional DQ loses due to over-brutality, still managed to be a 3-time World Champion in the US alone. And this match is no-DQ, no-count out.

    Gelgarin, I truly respect your love for Lou Thesz. You're the authority on the man on these forums. But that amounts to basically being a "historian." You're trying to compare wrestling eras on an apples to apples basis, and it shows. I'll reiterate this in a separate post for the sake of simplicity and the waning visions of brevity, but your idea that Vader is "just another fat man for Thesz to outwrestle" is foolish, naive, and misleading.

    Vader would run over Lou Thesz, and though Thesz would test him, he is SO FAR out of his element here against a man who was an absolute monster in 4 countries.
     
    #34
    Blue Chipper likes this.
  10. IrishCanadian25

    IrishCanadian25 Going on 10 years with WrestleZone

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    Why I am going to knock my response to Tasty and Gelgarin by responding to THIS is beyond me, but this post pissed me off, so here goes.

    There's a MINOR difference between climbing a ladder / knowing how a ladder works and preparing to fight a fight where the ladder is a centerpeice to the match.

    Hardcore legend Cactus Jack wasn't able to do that in a match that was 100% in Cactus's element - the Texas death Match. Lou Thesz, a man who has never been in a gimmick match to my knowledge and who spent 6 decades seeking pinfalls and submissions (both of which are useless in this match) has FAR less of a chance of "beating Vader until he didn't get up" than Vader has of beating Thesz within an inch of his life.

    First off, Vader > Wight.

    Second, Wight was facing guys with gimmick match experience. Vader is facing a man with no gimmick match experience.
     
    #35
  11. Hulk Hogan's Brother

    Hulk Hogan's Brother Stop asking me what I'm gonna do!!!

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    Just dropped in to respond to some of the stuff here:

    The simplicity of the move and what it means in wrestling today means nothing really. By that logic Hulk Hogan should not have won anything after the 1990's because the leg drop was such a common move that even if a superheavyweight hit a really small guy with it, the small dude would get up as if nothing had happened. Yet Hogan has been winning matches with it right upto 2006.

    The point is if Thesz was knocking guys out with a back suplex or making people pass out with a hammerlock back in the 1950's, he would do the same in 2010. That is just how pro wrestling works. The effectiveness of the move has nothing to do with it's simplicity or how other people use it.

    You are right. He need not worry about the press because Lou Thesz is not going to use it. It is a pinning combination for fuck's sake and Thesz will understand that the object of the match in NOT to pin the opponent.

    However what Vader should fear is the back suplex or the hammerlock or the headlock because innocuous as these moves might seem, they will knock Vader out because Thesz in his day defeated guys with the same moves.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    There is no way Vader wins this against Thesz. Superheavyweights have never been booked to win ladder matches. I know that Vader is no ordinary superheavyweight, he is very quick and agile and not to mention extremely stiff. But all things taken he is still a superheavyweight. As talented as he may be he does not possess the talent to make himself lighter when he ascends the ladder.

    The arguement Tastycles makes about Centre of Gravity shifting is entirely correct though I think that a big deal should not be made about the fact that Thesz will find it easier to push Vader off the top. Vader will not find it difficult to push Thesz either. I think what people should worry about is of the ladder toppling off as soon as Vader starts to ascend it.

    And before I forget Undertaker and Kane are not superheavyweights. A SHW in pro wrestling is a guy above 400 pounds. Kane and Undertaker are billed at 325 pounds approximately. Big Show, Yokozuna and Vader are SHWs, not Kane and Undertaker. So please don't try to justify Vader winning just because these two guys have won ladder matches.

    The lack of experience in gimmick matches is a stupid arguement too. Smashing someone's head with a chair is not exactly rocket science. Yes Vader has experience in gimmick matches but has none of a ladder match. You know why that is the case? Because it is a stupid decision to book a SHW in a ladder match. Any wrestling booker will tell you that. The only SHW to have been booked in a ladder match so far is Big Show and that is only because it was a multi man match.

    So on one side you have a guy who has never had ladder matches because of his size and on the other hand you have a guy who has never had ladder matches because wrestling had not evolved that much as yet.

    Humor me this. If Hulk Hogan faces Chris Masters, Carlito, R-Truth, Wade Barrett and Drew McIntyre in an Elimination Chamber match are you going to vote against Hulk Hogan just because he has never been in an EC match as opposed to the other guys? That logic will very frankly be insane. Just because the match was ahead of Hogan's time does not mean that he will not win it.

    Thesz wins because he is the bigger star. Thesz wins because he does not have the triple disadvantage of no experience, just too heavy to climb and a bad knee. His only disadvantage is lack of experience, something that can be overcome. Vader was stiff in an era where stiffness was an option, Thesz was stiff in an era where stiffness was neccesary. Thesz had to be stiff in order to ensure that no wrestling booker could pull a fast one on him. Thesz matches Vader in just almost every department. Guys of Thesz size and wrestling style have won ladder matches in the current era while those of Vader's size have never even been booked in one unless it is a multi man match and does not require them to do much climbing.

    Vote for Thesz!!!
     
    #36
  12. IrishCanadian25

    IrishCanadian25 Going on 10 years with WrestleZone

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    First off, you're killin' me, smalls. No beer for you in the ICE Lounge.

    That aside, your Elimination Chamber comparison is foolish for the following reasons:

    1. Vader is not exactly Chris Masters, Carlito, R-Truth, Wade Barrett and Drew McIntyre.

    2. Hogan at least had experience in 1) steel cages, 2) no dq, no count out matches. He knew how to prepare differently for gimmick / specialty matches. A guy coming after him with a chair, ladder, ring bell, etc. wasn't foreign to him. It's the concept of having to prepare for a match type that goes completely against what you've trained to do for 50 years that handicaps Thesz here, not the idea that climbing a ladder is a concept he wouldn't be able to grasp.
     
    #37
  13. IrishCanadian25

    IrishCanadian25 Going on 10 years with WrestleZone

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    I need to make a very important post to clarify something about the stipulation of the match. A lot of Thesz-supporters are (as they have been doing a lot this match) trying to misdirect voters with this concept that the ladder is a simple concept. Indeed it is. But it's hardly my point.

    Thesz debuted in 1932 and retired in 1979 from full time wrestling. He wrestled a final match in 1990. I have no record on any of the sites I've checked that describe Thesz working a no-dq, hardcore, cage, or other sort of gimmick match aside from "best out of 3 falls," which was a fair occassion for title matches in the "olden days."

    For 47 damn years, Thesz got into the ring with the objective of controlling, wrestling, and stretching his opponent until he was able to earn a pinfall or get his opponent to submit. He was the best in the world at it, no question.

    At no point in time did a promoter approach Lou Thesz and say to him "Your next match is going to be a <insert match type here> match. There are NO pinfalls, there are NO submissions, and there are NO disqualifications or count-outs. And, instead of trying to pin YOU, your opponent who happens to be a 450-lb man who can moonsault, is going to be coming at you with a 15-ft ladder, steel chairs, and whatever else he can dream up. So you'll need to adjust your style a bit. So, yeah, good luck Lou!"

    If Dan Gable, collegiate wrestling legend and olympic gold medalist who never worked a pro match in his life, was suddenly told "okay, in this match, you're not going to earn points or pin your opponent. The object is to be the first one to climb that rope and ring that bell..." he'd freak because all of his career's work and preparation went into learning the most effective ways to turn and pin or earn enough points on opponents to win.

    You cannot legitimately expect such a drastic change in the basic rules of professional wrestling to not adversely affect a man who spent time in 7 different decades doing something a particular way with a particular outcome.

    Thesz is out of his element, not because he doesn't understand the concept of climbing a ladder, but because he'll be ill-prepared to handle a match where his convention wisdom is rendered useless.
     
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  14. JXL

    JXL Pre-Show Stalwart

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    I don't want to get in between the war of words with Irish and Gelgarin, as both have made solid points about why their favorite should go over. I'll just say my vote and hide in the bushes until they finish. I voted for Vader because he has more of the edge in hardcore type matches than Thesz and has the ability in strength and factor in his ruthlessness to take down Thesz and climb the ladder and win. Please don't lecture me on histories, I just went for my opinion, not that it means a thing...

    My vote: Vader
     
    #39
    IrishCanadian25 likes this.
  15. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    I vote Vader here.

    I respect the accomplishments of Lou Thesz. Hell, I'm an advocate of old school wrestling. But I can't let Thesz go over here.

    People view ladder matches, see a superheavyweight, and automatically scream "He can't win! He's big and fat and big and fat people don't climb ladders!!" It's already been proved that Kane won a MITB ladder match so that point is stupid.

    But what about Thesz's masterful in-ring, shooting skill? Last I checked, ladder matches had no rules. Vader would pick up that ladder and beat Lou Thesz to a bloody pulp. Thesz's strong points are in shoot-wrestling. A ladder match is a kayfabe dream who's present use has passed up Thesz's day and age. It's like saying that the inventor of the automobile can easily fly an airplane. When you take Vader's ruthlessness, power, agility, and merciless onslaught, add a ladder and no rules, you've got a recipe for just about every legend of the sport to fall to him.

    I see a very even ground game and a very neutral, first 15 minutes of a match. Then, once the ladder is in play, I see Vader pulvarizing Thesz to the point where shoot wrestling won't help him in any way. As Thesz gasps for his last breath, Vader trots to the top of the ladder and grabs a victory.

    Vader wins here, clearly.
     
    #40
  16. Hulk Hogan's Brother

    Hulk Hogan's Brother Stop asking me what I'm gonna do!!!

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    WOW why don't you argue that even Undertaker has won a ladder match and so superheavyweights win ladder matches all the time. Kane and Undertaker are not SHW's and have never been referenced as such. A guy above 400 pounds is a superheavyweight in pro wrestling, not Kane and Undertaker. Hell Batista was almost their weight? Now is he a superheavyweight.

    Look, Kane and Big Show both participated in the same match. They made a huge deal about how Big Show would be able to climb the ladder and how he had used a special ladder to overcome that disadvantage. That was not how Kane was built up. Kane has been in a number of ladder matches till date and not once has it ever been said that Kane would not be able to climb the ladder because of his size. Why? Because he is NOT A SUPERHEAVYWEIGHT!


    So now using a ladder for the first time is the same as flying an aeroplane without training? How about Thesz avoiding Vader's attacks or is that unimaginable. How about Thesz using a ladder himself and maybe showing us new ways to use a ladder? How about Vader's injured knee which Thesz can easily smash up with a ladder.

    Thesz is almost the inventor of modern day pro wrestling when there was no such concept around. I am sure he will get the hang of how to use a ladder. Also he will come in prepared for this match. I like how IC is trying to drive home the fact that Thesz will be informed 15 minutes before the match about this new match type.

    Shoot wrestling is certainly Thesz's strong point but not his only strength as you are trying to make out. Thesz is pretty fast and also an inventor. Vader has the disadvantage of being too big and having a bad knee. Thesz is just inexperienced and that can be overcome by good preparation.
     
    #41
  17. IrishCanadian25

    IrishCanadian25 Going on 10 years with WrestleZone

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    Hey Rattlesnake, where are you getting this data that a SHW is 400+ lbs? Please cite your source, because that number is FAR higher than I am used to seeing described for an SHW.

    Also, where did I say "15 minutes?" In the concept of this tournament, there are several days between matches, with the exception of the final 3 rounds. Still, do you think it takes days, weeks, or even months to un-learn almost a half-century of training?

    EDIT:

    So you're saying that un-doing 5 decades of learning can be cured by 'good preparation' and a banged up knee can't be cured with...tape?
     
    #42
  18. Tastycles

    Tastycles Turn Bayley heel

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    Looks like Vader's going to win. I've spent too long in the past trying to get Santo over to waste any more time on an absolutely futile pursuit, so this will almost certainly be my last post in this thread.

    Why is being held in a submission hold any less painful or detrimental than heavy offence? If you hit someone hard, you will hurt them, but if you put people in legitimate holds, as happened to Thesz, then they will suffer injuries that will last longer, such as muscle pulls etc. Michaels vs Hart is criticised for being boring, not unrealistic. The concept of the rest hold is a bullshit modern wrestling thing that tries to excuse the completely unrealistic style of today's wrestling. I can tell you I'd rather be dropkicked and clotheslined for 5 minutes rather than have my limbs stretched out of position for 35.

    It's certainly true that integrity played a part, but don't be fooled that it wasn't down to the bottom line - his drawing and popularity. Vader has never been the main man anywhere, because he isn't as marketable as Thesz. If it was all about integrity, then it would have passed to Gagne, a man who proved his ability as a champion subsequently, but it didn't. The audience wanted Thesz and they got him.


    What possible justification could you have for picking the Foley match? Foley's record in WCW was abysmal. He was an absolute nobody going nowhere doing amnesia angles. He may have ended up being a big deal, but in 1994 he was just a violent sideshow. Fighting Ric Flair for the world title is in every way shape and form a bigger match than this.

    This is precisely why he wouldn't do well in this match, which is in North America. American audiences don't like his style, and the only time he hasn't been an afterthought in the US and Canada was during WCW's Japanese experimentation phase.

    Ladies and Gentlemen, what you have here is categorical proof that Vader is a "lesser work". For you see, these "lesser promotions" that Thesz was fighting and winning in are the promotions that Vader won the majority of his titles in -NJPW and UWA.

    And also, Thesz didn't know when to walk away? Do me a favour.



    You: Vader's twice as heavy, he can hit Thesz with the ladder twice as hard
    Me: That's not how it works, weight plays no part in swinging a ladder, it's about strength
    You: Weight matters in professional wrestling.

    Taking my posts out of context is beneath you, or at least it should be, don't do it.



    The fact he rarely, if ever, was noted for his strength. Compare that to someone like Big John Studd, whose strength was *********ed over like nobodies business.

    I only laugh at things that are funny.
     
    #43
  19. IrishCanadian25

    IrishCanadian25 Going on 10 years with WrestleZone

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    I won't take anything for granted. It's only Monday, polls close Thursday. We'll all get tired of making the same points long before them though.

    No question about it. At the same time, though, Thesz will have to voluntarilly break the hold in order to win the match, which means Vader will always have a chance to save it. Again - I will not, no matter what, put down Thesz's skill or how dangerous he is. I have enough confidence in Vader to not have to resort to diminutizing the opponent here. I simply have more faith in Vader's ability to beat Thesz to a point where he is unable to stop Vader from climbing the ladder than I have for Thesz to be able to stop Vader.

    I unquestionably agree with you. It's why MMA is gaining in popularity. But we're discussing pro wrestling here, and you accurately use the term "modern." The ladder match is a modern match, and one in which Thesz and his 35-minute stretch holds are overmatched.

    Some of the many things I like about both Thesz and Gagne.

    And you're right, Vader isn't a magnificent draw. Monster heels rarely are, really. Andre drew his best houses when he was a babyface giant and when he was paired with Hogan. Austin and The Rock, though the rose as heels, drew their best money as faces. Same with Hogan with the nWo exception. And Vader would have been an awful top babyface, I think.

    That was a HUGE match for its time. It main evented Halloween Havoc that year and wasn't even a title match. Vader's title wasn't on the line. It was noteworthy because it was against Vader that Foley's ear was torn off, and it was Vader who powerbombed Foley on concrete to launch the (admittedly awful) amnesia angle. But the revenge factor for Foley was huge, and Vader still won.

    I didn't really track win-loss records, especially not in 1992-94. Sorry, not something I kept track of. I thought this was pro wrestling, not MMA...

    He was still a Hardcore mainstay, dude, and you know it. He wasn't yet the draw or the crowd influence he became, but Cactus Jack in the 90's was as brutal as anyone's ever been in the US.

    And World Champ Vader managed to out-violence the violent sideshow in a violent match.

    You'd think so, right? But the Flair match gets completely buried in the Hogan arrival. Fact is fact dude. I thought the Vader / Flair match was awesome, and that Vader did a great job putting Flair over (just as Flair did putting Vader over), but it was all about Hogan's arrival and subsequent championship run. I think that reign of Flair's gets totally forgotten.

    I disagree. I think Vader was a very big deal prior to the US / Japan phase. Again, I reference Vader's prime from 1991-1994. The mere fact that Vader was a multiple time champion in both countries is certainly noteworthy.

    Note - Vader would work the NJPW and UWA concurrently with WCW, the 2nd biggest promotion in the world at the time, and often worked as champion of two of the promotions at the same time. There's a big difference. If someone were both the WWE champion and the ROH champion right now, or both the WWE and AJPW champion right now, that would be on par with what Vader was doing.

    I was also being hyperbolic. I can't see videos at work, I'll check it out when I get home. And why can you spell favor with a 'u' but people go batshit when I spell Seamus without the 'h'? Limey double fucking standard.

    What's with all this "that's beneath you" stuff lately? I mean, I appreciate the compliments, but it's not like I can't fight dirty when I need to.

    Anyway, my intent was not to take your posts out of context. I see you claim that weight is immaterial in this match, and I balked because it's certainly not. But I do maintain that Vader's size and strength gives him a great deal more momentum / inertia with a weapon. Just wait until Thesz is in the corner up against the ladder and Vader avalanches him. Ouch.

    Just because it wasn't 'noted' doesn't mean it didn't exist! Vader's power was often a given because of how big and strong he was, but the shock with him was the agility and brutality, so that became his legacy. Big John Studd ONLY had his strength. Vader was, and you'll pardon the term, a total package.

    [​IMG]

    If I can be serious here for a moment...
     
    #44

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