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And people get pissed when I bash Triple H
- Thread starter Shocky
- Start date
Slim Pickns
Has Been Drafted To RAW
Rikishi
The Dungeon
Dr. Gregory House
You know it's pretty sad, that all most young wrestling fans have to go on, is the word, of the almighty Darth Hunter, and his revisionist B.S. Either, him, Shawn or Flair spout out the most asanine things you could think! I even find a lot of fans on this board just seem to buy what they say as "The Gospel of Wrestling". For Hunter to even imply that comment, I'm sure is nothing personal, however, it just goes to show, the so called "Game", just obviously doesen't know this business as well as he says he does, or he really is just trying to change history in an effort to kiss Ric's ass...maybe it's a combination of both.
On the subject of Sting, while Flair may take credit for legitmizing the young star at the time, there match at COTC, SUCKED ASS! I'm sorry, it's not terrible or anything, but it's the most overrated piece of shit I've ever seen. Not near as good as people make it out to be! While it did get Sting over, I still don't see what was so special about this match...at all
You see here's the thing, I will agree however, that Sting didn't draw as much as he should've. But was that the fault of Sting? NO! It was the fault of WCW dropping the ball with him, time, and time, and time, and time, and time, and time again! I mean, in 1989, Sting was the hottest star they had, and what do they do? They put the belt on Ricky Steamboat??? WHAT THE FUCK???? I'm sorry, no disrespect to Ricky, but he didn't draw dick all as champion, and while Hunter and others can kiss his and Flair's ass for the matches they had (which were excellent), the fact is, they didn't do great business! STING was the babyface they wanted to see as champion. So by the time 1990 rolled around, WCW was in a VERY bad way, and really had to finally put the belt on Sting, by then they say the damage was done! But could it be salvaged?
Sadly, Sting reign was botched from the word go, while feuding with the Horsemen was the logical thing to do, we had to endure the Sid feud, plus the subsuquent bad match afterwards, plus the entire Black Scorpion debacle, rather than just say "Hey lets put Sting & Ric in a match again". So of course, Sting takes the blame for WCW's business being in the toilet, despite being the top merchandise mover, and the most over babyface on the roster. While Sting may not have been drawing astronomical numbers, he was still the guy!
No disrespect to Ric, as his departure in 1991, cast a dark cloud over WCW! But who was the guy they turned too? My point exactly! Sting was pretty much the ONLY guy from late 1991 and althrough 1992, people were willing to pay to see in WCW. His feud with Vader, while not drawing all that well, brought Sting to a whole new level as an in ring worker, and his feud with Jake "The Snake" Roberts, despite the lame buildup, did WCW's best business that year, and actually drew one of the largest PPV buys they'd done in quite a while. While many attribute that to Jake Roberts, would they have cared if Jake was facing Tom Zenk? Don't think so!
Sting chased Vader for A LONG TIME, and never got his title back from him, which IMO was a huge mistake on WCW's part. Fans never turned against him! Why? Because he was all they had until Flair made his return. While Flair soon made his way to the top, and Sting was stuck in stupid tag feuds, and dumb PPV videos, plus AGAIN feuding with Sid, he still maintained his babyface heat, and was still the top merchandise mover as well as the biggest draw among kids.
Then of course, we all know who came into the picture next, Hogan! Many hardcore WCW fans resented Hogan, and wanted Sting (as well as Flair) to be there top guy, and they were vocal about it. But of course the nWo changed everything forever......Sting got a gimmick change at (IMO) EXACTLY the right time and not a moment too soon or too late, didn't speak a word for a year, haunted Hogan in silence, and drew the biggest PPV buy, in WCW history with him! Would it have worked with anyone but Sting? No! See, Sting may have taken a backseat to Hogan & Flair over the last few years, but in the hearts of many WCW fans, he was still there guy!
I do agree Sting's career just went down the shitter after that, but again, there was so much more they could've done, and it's not like Sting was given much to deal with! Not putting him and Goldberg on a PPV in '98 was a huge mistake, screwing up his feud with Bret Hart, joining the Wolfpac (i'm in the minority here...but I just thought him...or even Luger for that matter...joining a group that was still an NWO group, was quite dumb considering that they spent the majority of 2 YEARS feuding with them...I don't care if the Wolfpack were babyfaces).....
In 1999, when Sting won the WCW Title in that awesome match with DDP on "Nitro", they finally did something that might generate some interest, sure, Sting was a guy that older, and that WWF was making fun of, but he was still a guy WCW fans really cared about, and when that same night they made the match between him and Goldberg, for the belt, potential dollar signs were finally back in the WCW PPV picture which had been quite poor as of late. So what do they do? They take the belt off of Sting that SAME night, put it back on the most obnoxiously pushed wrestler of all time, and don't give him and Goldberg, in a match that should've been of HUGE magnitude, ANY storyline whatsoever, and it just came off as another match on a WCW PPV! Slamboree of course drew an ABISSMAL number!
So what happened after? that idiotic heel turn where the loyal WCW fans still stayed with him, the rediculous feud with Luger, extremely weird feud with Vampiro, renewing acquaintences with a unmotivated Great Muta (who btw, deserves more credit in making Sting a credible worker than Flair does), nothign feud with Jarrett, then the farewell match on "Nitro". Even when WCW went under, who was there top merchandise movers? Goldberg & STING!
Now most of you on this thread....I'm just telling you stuff you already know, but I wanted to state this for the record! In closing, the fact that Steve Borden, left such a legacy behind with his Sting character, and he didn't even reach his full potential, is a testament as to why he had a signifcant impact!
I'm not taking Hunter's comments out of context...but to me that's slap in the face to the Stinger, and downplays his legacy!
As for Hunter, he'd probably try to tell you he's still the be all end all. And while despite doing amazing business in the "Attitude Era", lets not kid ourselves too much! 2000 was his best year by far. When he first one the belt in 1999, and was defending in it in the Fall that year, the buyrates they drew that Fall were the lowest of the whole year. His matches with Foley, Rock, Angle & Austin all drew well. But after that, I look at the buys he's drawn, in the 50 some odd PPV's he's main evented since his Quad injury! The match with Hogan drew a disappointing number, as did his KOTR match with 'Taker, his first match with Shawn at Summerslam did well, his matches with Kane & RVD drew decent, but declining numbers, the Elimenation Chamber didn't fare as well as they'd hoped, the rematch with Shawn did pretty good, the Steiner matches were pretty much afterthoughts on already stacked main event cards (alone they probably would've bombed), the feud with Nash of course was a given that it didn't draw well, The feud with Goldberg was a HUGE letdown, inlcuding the Triple Threat at "Armageddon" which drew an abissmal number, more matches with Shawn drew terribly, the Benoit stuff wasn't box office gold, nor was the feud with Orton, the post Wrestlemania Batista matches actually pulled strong numbers, after a greaty showing at WM22, the Edge/Cena/HHH match drew a lowley number, the D-X stuff pulled in some strong numbers through the rest of 2006, and into the second Quad Injury! Since he won the belt and is back in the main event again, he's done pretty well, as Backlash & J-Day increased there numbers from the year before.
Yes, Hunter is one of the top merchandise movers, yes he's a draw in an era that isn't exactly the greatest, and yes he's over! But here's an exmaple, Sting's matches against Vader didn't exactly draw phenomenal numbers, but yet neither did Hunter's feuds with some of the best and biggest names in this business!
My point...don't upplay your own legacy, and downplay someone elses! I agree comparing WCW 1992, to WWE now is stupid, but the PPV numbers were still around the same range as the ones I've mentioned in Hunter's post "Attitude Era" run.
As for the Flair DVD....HUGE letdown...all it was....Flair putting over people who kiss his ass constantly....and people who kiss Flair's ass constantly, putting him over!
And one last note on Flair.....there are Smarks out there who crticize people like Shawn, Bret, Hunter, Batista, or anyone else for that matter, and portray Flair as a perfect guy, who's respected by his peers and doesen't do anything wrong! While Flair is greatly respected by his peers, there are those out there, who say Flair is a petty backstabber, who gets jealous very easily when his spot is threatened, and does what he can do to bury certain people. Many of those same names, felt that Bischoff was giving Flair a taste of his own medecine.
On the subject of Sting, while Flair may take credit for legitmizing the young star at the time, there match at COTC, SUCKED ASS! I'm sorry, it's not terrible or anything, but it's the most overrated piece of shit I've ever seen. Not near as good as people make it out to be! While it did get Sting over, I still don't see what was so special about this match...at all
You see here's the thing, I will agree however, that Sting didn't draw as much as he should've. But was that the fault of Sting? NO! It was the fault of WCW dropping the ball with him, time, and time, and time, and time, and time, and time again! I mean, in 1989, Sting was the hottest star they had, and what do they do? They put the belt on Ricky Steamboat??? WHAT THE FUCK???? I'm sorry, no disrespect to Ricky, but he didn't draw dick all as champion, and while Hunter and others can kiss his and Flair's ass for the matches they had (which were excellent), the fact is, they didn't do great business! STING was the babyface they wanted to see as champion. So by the time 1990 rolled around, WCW was in a VERY bad way, and really had to finally put the belt on Sting, by then they say the damage was done! But could it be salvaged?
Sadly, Sting reign was botched from the word go, while feuding with the Horsemen was the logical thing to do, we had to endure the Sid feud, plus the subsuquent bad match afterwards, plus the entire Black Scorpion debacle, rather than just say "Hey lets put Sting & Ric in a match again". So of course, Sting takes the blame for WCW's business being in the toilet, despite being the top merchandise mover, and the most over babyface on the roster. While Sting may not have been drawing astronomical numbers, he was still the guy!
No disrespect to Ric, as his departure in 1991, cast a dark cloud over WCW! But who was the guy they turned too? My point exactly! Sting was pretty much the ONLY guy from late 1991 and althrough 1992, people were willing to pay to see in WCW. His feud with Vader, while not drawing all that well, brought Sting to a whole new level as an in ring worker, and his feud with Jake "The Snake" Roberts, despite the lame buildup, did WCW's best business that year, and actually drew one of the largest PPV buys they'd done in quite a while. While many attribute that to Jake Roberts, would they have cared if Jake was facing Tom Zenk? Don't think so!
Sting chased Vader for A LONG TIME, and never got his title back from him, which IMO was a huge mistake on WCW's part. Fans never turned against him! Why? Because he was all they had until Flair made his return. While Flair soon made his way to the top, and Sting was stuck in stupid tag feuds, and dumb PPV videos, plus AGAIN feuding with Sid, he still maintained his babyface heat, and was still the top merchandise mover as well as the biggest draw among kids.
Then of course, we all know who came into the picture next, Hogan! Many hardcore WCW fans resented Hogan, and wanted Sting (as well as Flair) to be there top guy, and they were vocal about it. But of course the nWo changed everything forever......Sting got a gimmick change at (IMO) EXACTLY the right time and not a moment too soon or too late, didn't speak a word for a year, haunted Hogan in silence, and drew the biggest PPV buy, in WCW history with him! Would it have worked with anyone but Sting? No! See, Sting may have taken a backseat to Hogan & Flair over the last few years, but in the hearts of many WCW fans, he was still there guy!
I do agree Sting's career just went down the shitter after that, but again, there was so much more they could've done, and it's not like Sting was given much to deal with! Not putting him and Goldberg on a PPV in '98 was a huge mistake, screwing up his feud with Bret Hart, joining the Wolfpac (i'm in the minority here...but I just thought him...or even Luger for that matter...joining a group that was still an NWO group, was quite dumb considering that they spent the majority of 2 YEARS feuding with them...I don't care if the Wolfpack were babyfaces).....
In 1999, when Sting won the WCW Title in that awesome match with DDP on "Nitro", they finally did something that might generate some interest, sure, Sting was a guy that older, and that WWF was making fun of, but he was still a guy WCW fans really cared about, and when that same night they made the match between him and Goldberg, for the belt, potential dollar signs were finally back in the WCW PPV picture which had been quite poor as of late. So what do they do? They take the belt off of Sting that SAME night, put it back on the most obnoxiously pushed wrestler of all time, and don't give him and Goldberg, in a match that should've been of HUGE magnitude, ANY storyline whatsoever, and it just came off as another match on a WCW PPV! Slamboree of course drew an ABISSMAL number!
So what happened after? that idiotic heel turn where the loyal WCW fans still stayed with him, the rediculous feud with Luger, extremely weird feud with Vampiro, renewing acquaintences with a unmotivated Great Muta (who btw, deserves more credit in making Sting a credible worker than Flair does), nothign feud with Jarrett, then the farewell match on "Nitro". Even when WCW went under, who was there top merchandise movers? Goldberg & STING!
Now most of you on this thread....I'm just telling you stuff you already know, but I wanted to state this for the record! In closing, the fact that Steve Borden, left such a legacy behind with his Sting character, and he didn't even reach his full potential, is a testament as to why he had a signifcant impact!
I'm not taking Hunter's comments out of context...but to me that's slap in the face to the Stinger, and downplays his legacy!
As for Hunter, he'd probably try to tell you he's still the be all end all. And while despite doing amazing business in the "Attitude Era", lets not kid ourselves too much! 2000 was his best year by far. When he first one the belt in 1999, and was defending in it in the Fall that year, the buyrates they drew that Fall were the lowest of the whole year. His matches with Foley, Rock, Angle & Austin all drew well. But after that, I look at the buys he's drawn, in the 50 some odd PPV's he's main evented since his Quad injury! The match with Hogan drew a disappointing number, as did his KOTR match with 'Taker, his first match with Shawn at Summerslam did well, his matches with Kane & RVD drew decent, but declining numbers, the Elimenation Chamber didn't fare as well as they'd hoped, the rematch with Shawn did pretty good, the Steiner matches were pretty much afterthoughts on already stacked main event cards (alone they probably would've bombed), the feud with Nash of course was a given that it didn't draw well, The feud with Goldberg was a HUGE letdown, inlcuding the Triple Threat at "Armageddon" which drew an abissmal number, more matches with Shawn drew terribly, the Benoit stuff wasn't box office gold, nor was the feud with Orton, the post Wrestlemania Batista matches actually pulled strong numbers, after a greaty showing at WM22, the Edge/Cena/HHH match drew a lowley number, the D-X stuff pulled in some strong numbers through the rest of 2006, and into the second Quad Injury! Since he won the belt and is back in the main event again, he's done pretty well, as Backlash & J-Day increased there numbers from the year before.
Yes, Hunter is one of the top merchandise movers, yes he's a draw in an era that isn't exactly the greatest, and yes he's over! But here's an exmaple, Sting's matches against Vader didn't exactly draw phenomenal numbers, but yet neither did Hunter's feuds with some of the best and biggest names in this business!
My point...don't upplay your own legacy, and downplay someone elses! I agree comparing WCW 1992, to WWE now is stupid, but the PPV numbers were still around the same range as the ones I've mentioned in Hunter's post "Attitude Era" run.
As for the Flair DVD....HUGE letdown...all it was....Flair putting over people who kiss his ass constantly....and people who kiss Flair's ass constantly, putting him over!
And one last note on Flair.....there are Smarks out there who crticize people like Shawn, Bret, Hunter, Batista, or anyone else for that matter, and portray Flair as a perfect guy, who's respected by his peers and doesen't do anything wrong! While Flair is greatly respected by his peers, there are those out there, who say Flair is a petty backstabber, who gets jealous very easily when his spot is threatened, and does what he can do to bury certain people. Many of those same names, felt that Bischoff was giving Flair a taste of his own medecine.
Wow, I dont know how long all you guys have been watching wrestling, and i dont think that all of you will be honest about it with me, but i have been watching wrestling for 20 years now!! I have seen a lot come and go. All the hating on Triple H seems to me to be all because he is as good as he says he is!! Nobody likes a cocky person bragging about how good he is, but its true, you all just dont wanna hear him say it anymore, but cant deny it IS the game!! He started from the bottom and came up the hard way, dont hate him for taking advantage of things he has now, cause you all would to.
I have to say he is wrong about Sting not being bigger than when he was with Flair, but Flair did make Sting. However, anyone who read his direct quote from the DVD without a bias would know he didnt say Sting couldnt draw money!!!!
Hogan is the biggest EVER, Flair could only hope to be remembered in 20 years, Hogan still will be.
Also, if the Kliq wasnt so good, and WWE didnt depend on them, they couldnt get away with all the stuff they did. Wrestlers today are fired for a lot less than the stuff they did, but they werent because they were needed, big time. Same goes for Randy Orton!!! The next time Orton fails a drug test, it will be covered up and he wont be fired, and hes NOT banging the boss's daughter!!!
Stop hating on The Kliq, they ruled wrestling back then, and they still do, thats why everyone still talks about them even today. Face it, the impact they left even you haters cant deny!!!!!!
As for H putting guys over...Batista and Orton, enough said!! also dont forget Shelton Benjamin, but hes too stupid to take advantage of his ability!!! If H didnt put over a guy, he didnt think he had it!!!!!
I have to say he is wrong about Sting not being bigger than when he was with Flair, but Flair did make Sting. However, anyone who read his direct quote from the DVD without a bias would know he didnt say Sting couldnt draw money!!!!
Hogan is the biggest EVER, Flair could only hope to be remembered in 20 years, Hogan still will be.
Also, if the Kliq wasnt so good, and WWE didnt depend on them, they couldnt get away with all the stuff they did. Wrestlers today are fired for a lot less than the stuff they did, but they werent because they were needed, big time. Same goes for Randy Orton!!! The next time Orton fails a drug test, it will be covered up and he wont be fired, and hes NOT banging the boss's daughter!!!
Stop hating on The Kliq, they ruled wrestling back then, and they still do, thats why everyone still talks about them even today. Face it, the impact they left even you haters cant deny!!!!!!
As for H putting guys over...Batista and Orton, enough said!! also dont forget Shelton Benjamin, but hes too stupid to take advantage of his ability!!! If H didnt put over a guy, he didnt think he had it!!!!!
Flair did make Sting.
No he did not. Sting made Sting. Flair just helped him rise to stardom a little faster.
Flair or no Flair though, I guarantee Sting would've became the star he became no matter what.
The Dungeon
Dr. Gregory House
Wow, I dont know how long all you guys have been watching wrestling, and i dont think that all of you will be honest about it with me, but i have been watching wrestling for 20 years now!! I have seen a lot come and go. All the hating on Triple H seems to me to be all because he is as good as he says he is!! Nobody likes a cocky person bragging about how good he is, but its true, you all just dont wanna hear him say it anymore, but cant deny it IS the game!! He started from the bottom and came up the hard way, dont hate him for taking advantage of things he has now, cause you all would to.
Spoken like a true Triple H mark! I honestly don't think he's as good as he makes himself out to be! I just don't! He hasn't proven shit to me in the past few years! He may have clawed his way to the top, but kissing Shawn's ass and joining the Kliq certainly helped him get there a little faster! When he brings up the Kliq incident at MSG, he acts as if he's the only guy who's ever been buried in wrestling! Not like his burial lasted that long, he won the I-C Belt later that Fall. Quite frankly, I lose respect for wrestlers who do the things he does (allegedly). I enjoyed Hunter tremendously back when he was at his drawing prime in the "Attitude Era" as a top heel, and his matches today are still good, but he just does nothing for me!
I have to say he is wrong about Sting not being bigger than when he was with Flair, but Flair did make Sting. However, anyone who read his direct quote from the DVD without a bias would know he didnt say Sting couldnt draw money!!!!
Bud, I'm not saying he said he didn't draw money, that but that's the impression he gives by givng that comment! Seemingly negating anything else Sting ever did! That's the point I was trying to make, and obviously you completely missed that! Flair may have propelled Sting into superstardom, but it was the feud and matches with Muta that upped Sting's game more as ring worker IMO.
Hogan is the biggest EVER, Flair could only hope to be remembered in 20 years, Hogan still will be.
Fair enough.
Also, if the Kliq wasnt so good, and WWE didnt depend on them, they couldnt get away with all the stuff they did. Wrestlers today are fired for a lot less than the stuff they did, but they werent because they were needed, big time. Same goes for Randy Orton!!! The next time Orton fails a drug test, it will be covered up and he wont be fired, and hes NOT banging the boss's daughter!!!
Well nobody accused Vince of having any morals! And if Orton did fail a drug test (as I'm sure he may have, and Batista probably has), and Vince covers it up! It means he's learned nothing for the past year, and he's a bigger ignoramous then I though!.
Stop hating on The Kliq, they ruled wrestling back then, and they still do, thats why everyone still talks about them even today. Face it, the impact they left even you haters cant deny!!!!!!
Yeah, Charles Manson left an impact on pop culture! Does that make HIM great?
As for H putting guys over...Batista and Orton, enough said!! also dont forget Shelton Benjamin, but hes too stupid to take advantage of his ability!!! If H didnt put over a guy, he didnt think he had it!!!!!
You just named two of his buddies he spent over and a half in the same faction with....and don't give me that shit about Orton...he got buried him like no tomorrow back in '04 early '05!! He put over Orton recently, after beating him earlier in the night, and having a match with Umaga as well!
Benjamin? Yeah, that went far!
Triple H doesen't put people over because they don't have it??? Jericho, RVD & Booker T were all hitting huge strides of popularity before ol' Darth Hunter killed there momentum. While Goldberg was already being misused, he put the final nail in his coffin!. These are guys that had "It", and had what it took!
Ok ill buy that, Sting had that IT factor, and would have been a name regardless of Flair. Since Flair did help him along, i was backing up part of what HHH said, thats all. McMahon wouldnt have wanted him so bad if he was nothing.
Believe me, i dont wanna come across as Flair biggest fan, i think he did a lot, but think wrestling would be as big without him. Going back to the Hart and Flair battle, i think Hart could technically wrestle Flair into the ground. He talks about Harts matches being the same, i knew Flair would face plant before he did, and knew when to, he matches looked scripted a lot of the time. Lets not forget, Hart pulled of a PPV match with Hakushi, he is the best wrestler!!!
Believe me, i dont wanna come across as Flair biggest fan, i think he did a lot, but think wrestling would be as big without him. Going back to the Hart and Flair battle, i think Hart could technically wrestle Flair into the ground. He talks about Harts matches being the same, i knew Flair would face plant before he did, and knew when to, he matches looked scripted a lot of the time. Lets not forget, Hart pulled of a PPV match with Hakushi, he is the best wrestler!!!
You know it's pretty sad, that all most young wrestling fans have to go on, is the word, of the almighty Darth Hunter, and his revisionist B.S. Either, him, Shawn or Flair spout out the most asanine things you could think! I even find a lot of fans on this board just seem to buy what they say as "The Gospel of Wrestling". For Hunter to even imply that comment, I'm sure is nothing personal, however, it just goes to show, the so called "Game", just obviously doesen't know this business as well as he says he does, or he really is just trying to change history in an effort to kiss Ric's ass...maybe it's a combination of both.
On the subject of Sting, while Flair may take credit for legitmizing the young star at the time, there match at COTC, SUCKED ASS! I'm sorry, it's not terrible or anything, but it's the most overrated piece of shit I've ever seen. Not near as good as people make it out to be! While it did get Sting over, I still don't see what was so special about this match...at all
You see here's the thing, I will agree however, that Sting didn't draw as much as he should've. But was that the fault of Sting? NO! It was the fault of WCW dropping the ball with him, time, and time, and time, and time, and time, and time again! I mean, in 1989, Sting was the hottest star they had, and what do they do? They put the belt on Ricky Steamboat??? WHAT THE FUCK???? I'm sorry, no disrespect to Ricky, but he didn't draw dick all as champion, and while Hunter and others can kiss his and Flair's ass for the matches they had (which were excellent), the fact is, they didn't do great business! STING was the babyface they wanted to see as champion. So by the time 1990 rolled around, WCW was in a VERY bad way, and really had to finally put the belt on Sting, by then they say the damage was done! But could it be salvaged?
Sadly, Sting reign was botched from the word go, while feuding with the Horsemen was the logical thing to do, we had to endure the Sid feud, plus the subsuquent bad match afterwards, plus the entire Black Scorpion debacle, rather than just say "Hey lets put Sting & Ric in a match again". So of course, Sting takes the blame for WCW's business being in the toilet, despite being the top merchandise mover, and the most over babyface on the roster. While Sting may not have been drawing astronomical numbers, he was still the guy!
No disrespect to Ric, as his departure in 1991, cast a dark cloud over WCW! But who was the guy they turned too? My point exactly! Sting was pretty much the ONLY guy from late 1991 and althrough 1992, people were willing to pay to see in WCW. His feud with Vader, while not drawing all that well, brought Sting to a whole new level as an in ring worker, and his feud with Jake "The Snake" Roberts, despite the lame buildup, did WCW's best business that year, and actually drew one of the largest PPV buys they'd done in quite a while. While many attribute that to Jake Roberts, would they have cared if Jake was facing Tom Zenk? Don't think so!
Sting chased Vader for A LONG TIME, and never got his title back from him, which IMO was a huge mistake on WCW's part. Fans never turned against him! Why? Because he was all they had until Flair made his return. While Flair soon made his way to the top, and Sting was stuck in stupid tag feuds, and dumb PPV videos, plus AGAIN feuding with Sid, he still maintained his babyface heat, and was still the top merchandise mover as well as the biggest draw among kids.
Then of course, we all know who came into the picture next, Hogan! Many hardcore WCW fans resented Hogan, and wanted Sting (as well as Flair) to be there top guy, and they were vocal about it. But of course the nWo changed everything forever......Sting got a gimmick change at (IMO) EXACTLY the right time and not a moment too soon or too late, didn't speak a word for a year, haunted Hogan in silence, and drew the biggest PPV buy, in WCW history with him! Would it have worked with anyone but Sting? No! See, Sting may have taken a backseat to Hogan & Flair over the last few years, but in the hearts of many WCW fans, he was still there guy!
I do agree Sting's career just went down the shitter after that, but again, there was so much more they could've done, and it's not like Sting was given much to deal with! Not putting him and Goldberg on a PPV in '98 was a huge mistake, screwing up his feud with Bret Hart, joining the Wolfpac (i'm in the minority here...but I just thought him...or even Luger for that matter...joining a group that was still an NWO group, was quite dumb considering that they spent the majority of 2 YEARS feuding with them...I don't care if the Wolfpack were babyfaces).....
In 1999, when Sting won the WCW Title in that awesome match with DDP on "Nitro", they finally did something that might generate some interest, sure, Sting was a guy that older, and that WWF was making fun of, but he was still a guy WCW fans really cared about, and when that same night they made the match between him and Goldberg, for the belt, potential dollar signs were finally back in the WCW PPV picture which had been quite poor as of late. So what do they do? They take the belt off of Sting that SAME night, put it back on the most obnoxiously pushed wrestler of all time, and don't give him and Goldberg, in a match that should've been of HUGE magnitude, ANY storyline whatsoever, and it just came off as another match on a WCW PPV! Slamboree of course drew an ABISSMAL number!
So what happened after? that idiotic heel turn where the loyal WCW fans still stayed with him, the rediculous feud with Luger, extremely weird feud with Vampiro, renewing acquaintences with a unmotivated Great Muta (who btw, deserves more credit in making Sting a credible worker than Flair does), nothign feud with Jarrett, then the farewell match on "Nitro". Even when WCW went under, who was there top merchandise movers? Goldberg & STING!
Now most of you on this thread....I'm just telling you stuff you already know, but I wanted to state this for the record! In closing, the fact that Steve Borden, left such a legacy behind with his Sting character, and he didn't even reach his full potential, is a testament as to why he had a signifcant impact!
I'm not taking Hunter's comments out of context...but to me that's slap in the face to the Stinger, and downplays his legacy!
As for Hunter, he'd probably try to tell you he's still the be all end all. And while despite doing amazing business in the "Attitude Era", lets not kid ourselves too much! 2000 was his best year by far. When he first one the belt in 1999, and was defending in it in the Fall that year, the buyrates they drew that Fall were the lowest of the whole year. His matches with Foley, Rock, Angle & Austin all drew well. But after that, I look at the buys he's drawn, in the 50 some odd PPV's he's main evented since his Quad injury! The match with Hogan drew a disappointing number, as did his KOTR match with 'Taker, his first match with Shawn at Summerslam did well, his matches with Kane & RVD drew decent, but declining numbers, the Elimenation Chamber didn't fare as well as they'd hoped, the rematch with Shawn did pretty good, the Steiner matches were pretty much afterthoughts on already stacked main event cards (alone they probably would've bombed), the feud with Nash of course was a given that it didn't draw well, The feud with Goldberg was a HUGE letdown, inlcuding the Triple Threat at "Armageddon" which drew an abissmal number, more matches with Shawn drew terribly, the Benoit stuff wasn't box office gold, nor was the feud with Orton, the post Wrestlemania Batista matches actually pulled strong numbers, after a greaty showing at WM22, the Edge/Cena/HHH match drew a lowley number, the D-X stuff pulled in some strong numbers through the rest of 2006, and into the second Quad Injury! Since he won the belt and is back in the main event again, he's done pretty well, as Backlash & J-Day increased there numbers from the year before.
Yes, Hunter is one of the top merchandise movers, yes he's a draw in an era that isn't exactly the greatest, and yes he's over! But here's an exmaple, Sting's matches against Vader didn't exactly draw phenomenal numbers, but yet neither did Hunter's feuds with some of the best and biggest names in this business!
My point...don't upplay your own legacy, and downplay someone elses! I agree comparing WCW 1992, to WWE now is stupid, but the PPV numbers were still around the same range as the ones I've mentioned in Hunter's post "Attitude Era" run.
As for the Flair DVD....HUGE letdown...all it was....Flair putting over people who kiss his ass constantly....and people who kiss Flair's ass constantly, putting him over!
And one last note on Flair.....there are Smarks out there who crticize people like Shawn, Bret, Hunter, Batista, or anyone else for that matter, and portray Flair as a perfect guy, who's respected by his peers and doesen't do anything wrong! While Flair is greatly respected by his peers, there are those out there, who say Flair is a petty backstabber, who gets jealous very easily when his spot is threatened, and does what he can do to bury certain people. Many of those same names, felt that Bischoff was giving Flair a taste of his own medecine.
This entire post, basically, proves that Triple H was right with what he was saying, you realize? Did Triple H compare Sting to HIMSELF? Did Triple H say anything about himself or his own ability or drawing power? Triple H said that Sting didn't draw, simple as that, and in essence he's right. I'm not aware of him bashing Sting's legacy, or bashing anything about his career, he merely stated Sting didn't draw. People are overreacting.
jmt225 said:No he did not. Sting made Sting. Flair just helped him rise to stardom a little faster.
Flair or no Flair though, I guarantee Sting would've became the star he became no matter what.
Its hard to make yourself in the wrestling business when everything, no matter how talented you are, depends on the opportunities you're given to prove yourself. Just looke at Austin before he came to the WWE; in many ways people could say Vince McMahon made Austin because he gave him the opportunity, the push, and the booking to allow Austin to reach his potential and prove the star he could be. Much goes for Hulk Hogan too in that argument. Flair gave Sting the opportunity, Flair helped hone Sting whose wrestling ability was poor back then and wasn't some huge baby face at all, and Flair helped to make Sting into that very baby face everyone loved by being the great heel opposite him. I think Flair definitely deserves credit in Sting's beginnings and that's why Sting himself gives Flair all the credit in the world.
who said flair isn't as big a draw as hogan? i seem to remember him and Inoki getting 190,000 people to watch their match(which was great btw)
i don't like hogan, i admit he put wrestling on the map.
Sting was HUGE even without flair and hogan, it helped but he was big.
Everyone loved him even if he was doing nothing (ala, vampiro fued)
my argument is not with what HHH said but what people are arguing about Hogan vs Flair.
i don't like hogan, i admit he put wrestling on the map.
Sting was HUGE even without flair and hogan, it helped but he was big.
Everyone loved him even if he was doing nothing (ala, vampiro fued)
my argument is not with what HHH said but what people are arguing about Hogan vs Flair.
You folks need to realize that history has been getting rewritten since the beginning of time. If you have the power, the pen, and the pad you can write what you want. I don't agree with what Triple H said about Sting though, but I must say that the Sting/Hogan fued did draw more than Sting/Flair fueds, but that's because the NWO angle was hot during the Hogan/Sting fued and everybody loved the new Sting look (or the Crow look if you prefer) and everyone wanted to see someone finally beat Hogan for the belt which no one else was able to do at the time. Sting is a dumbass for staying around in TNA...for goodness sake that's the worst wrestling storylines I've ever seen played out. He should have jumped ship and collected the booty. Selling out...or selling tickets?! You make the call...you will anyway. So says Shaw...
Ok, i agree that Batista and Orton were his buddies, but were they his buddies before he was helping mold them in evolution, HHH and Flair helped those guys out.
I do agree with you that if Orton or Batista failed a drug test, they should be fired. Vince shouldnt play with that fire again, he got burned too many times already. However, Vince is a businessman, and he will not hand Orton over to TNA, he wouldnt even hand over Carlito???
Carlito could be huge, so could Benjamin, they just dont wanna try hard enough. Thats why as much as people hate on Cena, he goes all out, balls to the wall, all the time.
As a side note, who do you guys think should get insane TV pushes?
Also, i wanna say that there is one other person i find is a well known name, even after all these years, and another person who will be remembered FOREVER in wrestling. Two people, Hulk Hogan and Andre the Giant will always stand the test of time.
I do agree with you that if Orton or Batista failed a drug test, they should be fired. Vince shouldnt play with that fire again, he got burned too many times already. However, Vince is a businessman, and he will not hand Orton over to TNA, he wouldnt even hand over Carlito???
Carlito could be huge, so could Benjamin, they just dont wanna try hard enough. Thats why as much as people hate on Cena, he goes all out, balls to the wall, all the time.
As a side note, who do you guys think should get insane TV pushes?
Also, i wanna say that there is one other person i find is a well known name, even after all these years, and another person who will be remembered FOREVER in wrestling. Two people, Hulk Hogan and Andre the Giant will always stand the test of time.
Two people, Hulk Hogan and Andre the Giant will always stand the test of time.
i find it funny that so many people are "smart fans" but lack the knowledge to know that Hogan's slam on Andre wasn't that massive, how about Stan Hansen(a guy not as big as hogan) slamming Andre, or Antoni Inoki (another guy NOWHERE near as big as hogan) taking out Andre in a shoot fight.
though i give it credit, the slam via hogan happened on the biggest worldwide watched stage there is....Wrestlemania.
Im guessing that was a shot at me, but then you went a different direction than i was going with my statement. All i said was Andre would always be remembered, nowhere in my statement did i argue that the slam was the most massive thing to happen. In fact, i never even mentioned that slam. Ill say that i know nothing about Stan Hansen or Antoni Inoki, i was WWF the last 20 years or so. Regardless of whoever took down Andre in the past, before Hogan, after him, Andre will ALWAYS be remembered along with Hogan. Thats my statement, so take it for what i wrote specifically.
i find it funny that so many people are "smart fans" but lack the knowledge to know that Hogan's slam on Andre wasn't that massive, how about Stan Hansen(a guy not as big as hogan) slamming Andre, or Antoni Inoki (another guy NOWHERE near as big as hogan) taking out Andre in a shoot fight.
though i give it credit, the slam via hogan happened on the biggest worldwide watched stage there is....Wrestlemania.
The Flair Inoki drawing 190,000 people is such bullshit. It was a festival, meant to inspire Peace, the match happened to be a part of the festivities, it wasn't the draw. That's misinterpruting history if there ever was anything.
As for the quote, you answered your own question with that last sentence. Inoki and Andre was largely fogotten at that point, as was Stan Hansen.
Im guessing that was a shot at me, but then you went a different direction than i was going with my statement. All i said was Andre would always be remembered, nowhere in my statement did i argue that the slam was the most massive thing to happen. In fact, i never even mentioned that slam. Ill say that i know nothing about Stan Hansen or Antoni Inoki, i was WWF the last 20 years or so. Regardless of whoever took down Andre in the past, before Hogan, after him, Andre will ALWAYS be remembered along with Hogan. Thats my statement, so take it for what i wrote specifically.
Please don't take it as a shot at you, it was not intended you just gave me the perfect way to branch off into something i just had been wanting to say about Hogan and seeing as so many people are kissing his arse in this thread that hate him in others i figured i'd pop that one in there.
i agree with you, Andre will always be remembered because he was a GIANT end of story.
i find it funny that so many people are "smart fans" but lack the knowledge to know that Hogan's slam on Andre wasn't that massive, how about Stan Hansen(a guy not as big as hogan) slamming Andre, or Antoni Inoki (another guy NOWHERE near as big as hogan) taking out Andre in a shoot fight.
though i give it credit, the slam via hogan happened on the biggest worldwide watched stage there is....Wrestlemania.
I find it funny that you don't realize that it wasn't the fact that Hogan slammed Andre, or how it compared to other people who may have actually done it in the history of wrestling, but the fact that the WWF built that feud and that moment so well that Andre was seen by the world as the unbeatable, unstoppable, unSLAMMABLE Giant. It was the moment and the STORY that was told that will forever stand the test of time. It was the first actual "WrestleMania moment". So downplaying it based on the fact others slammed Andre like Hogan did doesn't make sense, because the fact is NO ONE would've slammed Andre if he didn't let them.
The Flair Inoki drawing 190,000 people is such bullshit. It was a festival, meant to inspire Peace, the match happened to be a part of the festivities, it wasn't the draw. That's misinterpruting history if there ever was anything.
As for the quote, you answered your own question with that last sentence. Inoki and Andre was largely fogotten at that point, as was Stan Hansen.
i wasn't aware about the whole festival of peace thing, i remember it being a festival but i thought it was some dealio WCW put on.
and yes, also to answer the other guy who tried to run down my statement.
the WWF built it up really well, it STILL had nothing to do with Hogan really apart from the fact that he was the face of wrestling and you can argue that means everything but they could've had Ultimate Warrior do it and it would've worked, not as well but it would've.
My point was that lots of people blow smoke up Hogans arse for doing it when it's been and done before-hand they just have limited knowledge.
Evan Snow-Wolf
Running On Diesel Fuel!
*reads the entire thread*
Jeez guys. Don't hold back, Shocky. Tell us how you really feel!
Jeez guys. Don't hold back, Shocky. Tell us how you really feel!
*reads the entire thread*
Jeez guys. Don't hold back, Shocky. Tell us how you really feel!
Triple H Sux, that sums it up
The Dungeon
Dr. Gregory House
This entire post, basically, proves that Triple H was right with what he was saying, you realize? Did Triple H compare Sting to HIMSELF? Did Triple H say anything about himself or his own ability or drawing power? Triple H said that Sting didn't draw, simple as that, and in essence he's right. I'm not aware of him bashing Sting's legacy, or bashing anything about his career, he merely stated Sting didn't draw. People are overreacting.
Conratulations you missed the point....and Sting DID draw! He (HHH) makes himself out to be "the greatest of his time", or even the "Greatest of all time". Whatever!
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