Find'er Woo'er Ryder
:( lost ma Mayhem Title
Why should anyone get rewarded for losing a match. Just because he was world champion doesn't mean he has to be a champion all the time.
WZCW Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Prax
- Start date
Why should anyone get rewarded for losing a match. Just because he was world champion doesn't mean he has to be a champion all the time.
We have both the Lottery and the Roulette coming up so a TON can change, keep that in mind. If both Eve and Titus retain during the Roulette then have them get the World Championship title shot at the Lethal Lottery. A triple threat if both retain in the Roulette. A tournament for the Eurasian #1 contendership goes on during the Lottery cycle with the Final being at that PPV. Eve and/or Titus still walk into the Lottery as champions but if Titus wins the World Championship then his #1 contender is awarded the Eurasian belt. If Eve wins then the Elite title would be under the "defended every round" stipulation that has been discussed so it would have new contenders lined up, while Titus would feud with at Kingdom Come the #1 contender who won the tournament.
Do the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few? That's a big question here.
First of all, I have loved people talking about ways that we can continue to develop the shows and bring you all a little closer to the action; that's been awesome.
But something I want to pick up on is the desire, seemingly, to have the Elite Openweight Championship defended on every TV show. I really don't like that idea, let me make it clear from the outset. Fallout and I were the two people who really held onto the Elite X Championship for a long period of time during the gauntlet and I have to admit that I totally hated it. A lot of people think that the only person who stands to benefit from an arrangement like that is the Champion. But let me tell you, facing different people every show and having no solid feud is really horrendous for a Champion. There really is nothing for the Champion to go on every week, other than who they are facing and the possibility of completing the gauntlet. It was a tough period of my wiring career and I wouldn't want to subject anyone to it.
But the real difficulty is from a booking perspective. Having the Championship being able to be dropped at a hat really means it is difficult to book the Champion, or any of the challengers the way that we would like. Ideally, we like to plan out a cycle in advance so that nothing is left to chance. But how can you schedule anyone in for a feud when they might be the Elite Openweight Champion at the end of the cycle? Whilst people might find that unpredictability is a good thing when it comes to Champions, it really is a nuisance to book and a hazard that we don't need.
That said, I would be totally willing to bring in a new TV Championship for the purposes of allowing some of the talent further down the field to get a taste for gold. However, I would be lying if I said that this would be a good replacement for solid feuds. Again, it would fall into the trap of being a nightmare to book. But if people thought that fighting over a Championship, instead of igniting their own feuds, was something that they wanted to do, I would support it.
So again, it comes back to the original question I set out with. Does the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few? I agree that it can become challenging when a mid-card Champion holds onto a belt for so long. The roster struggle to get it from them and the place feels a little stagnant and motionless. But does this mean we should rob the Champions of better built feuds and replace them with meaningless defences? I would say no.
First of all, I have loved people talking about ways that we can continue to develop the shows and bring you all a little closer to the action; that's been awesome.
But something I want to pick up on is the desire, seemingly, to have the Elite Openweight Championship defended on every TV show. I really don't like that idea, let me make it clear from the outset. Fallout and I were the two people who really held onto the Elite X Championship for a long period of time during the gauntlet and I have to admit that I totally hated it. A lot of people think that the only person who stands to benefit from an arrangement like that is the Champion. But let me tell you, facing different people every show and having no solid feud is really horrendous for a Champion. There really is nothing for the Champion to go on every week, other than who they are facing and the possibility of completing the gauntlet. It was a tough period of my wiring career and I wouldn't want to subject anyone to it.
But the real difficulty is from a booking perspective. Having the Championship being able to be dropped at a hat really means it is difficult to book the Champion, or any of the challengers the way that we would like. Ideally, we like to plan out a cycle in advance so that nothing is left to chance. But how can you schedule anyone in for a feud when they might be the Elite Openweight Champion at the end of the cycle? Whilst people might find that unpredictability is a good thing when it comes to Champions, it really is a nuisance to book and a hazard that we don't need.
That said, I would be totally willing to bring in a new TV Championship for the purposes of allowing some of the talent further down the field to get a taste for gold. However, I would be lying if I said that this would be a good replacement for solid feuds. Again, it would fall into the trap of being a nightmare to book. But if people thought that fighting over a Championship, instead of igniting their own feuds, was something that they wanted to do, I would support it.
So again, it comes back to the original question I set out with. Does the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few? I agree that it can become challenging when a mid-card Champion holds onto a belt for so long. The roster struggle to get it from them and the place feels a little stagnant and motionless. But does this mean we should rob the Champions of better built feuds and replace them with meaningless defences? I would say no.
Not a fan of idea. It could be as simple as Banks comes out the MD after the event and informs the winner that they are required to forfeit the lesser title. Heck, when I won LL as Elite X champion I forfeited the title a few shows after, without winning the title. I think it would be a pretty awesome if a heel were to forfeit the WHC. Tournament follows and there's a cycle of booking.
I was with you until the last sentence.
Hyorinmaru
Sit Upon The Frozen Heavens
I don't think a lower card title would replace solid feuds for people just give them something to shoot for. People would still have their non-title feuds to hone their RPing skills and develop their character and when you guys on creative think they're ready give them a #1 Contenders match on a preshow or Meltdown/Ascension. The loser goes back down until creative decides they're ready again and the winner goes on to feud with the champion. Granted there are a lot of things behind the scenes I'm not privy to but it doesn't seem like it would be anymore difficult than booking another championship.
In this case I honestly think it does. People get frustrated for whatever reason and they leave the fed for whatever reason. If we change things to suit the majority a few might still leave but it's better than the majority leaving.
I understand your feelings on the matter. I myself was the Mayhem champion for a time, and while I wasn't nearly as long of a champion as you were, I have quite the opposite feelings on it. I loved the randomness and the uncertainty. I loved the idea that I would have to be at my best to hang on to it. It's a perspective thing, and everyone is going to have a different opinion on it, which is why I can understand why you wouldn't like it.
From a booking perspective, it does suck when things don't go as planned. I too know what you mean, but how many times has the WHC champion had to forfeit when a RP'er leaves, or the EurAsian for that matter. It's been happening a lot of late, and booking wise you guys have done well with the challenges. It's there no matter what, so I don't see how the Elite Openweight being defended regularly being any more difficult. There's a couple of options for feuds that I can think of. Booker T/Chris Benoit style best of, or a Triple Theat if someone unexpectedly wins. Eve could even start a feud with Garth Black on MD, lose the title the following round to Abel Hunnicutt, but still continue in her feud with Black. Abel could defend the title against M or however he fought in the last PPV, making the feud fresh, while Eve and Black's match could be #1 contender match to face the winner the following round. As long as you mix and match and cycle some of the same people, it could work without too much uncertainty and frustration.
As said before, I'm against a new title. Roster isn't big enough to need a new title. I'd rather you continue the solid work you guys are doing with the lower cards. I am in agreement with FalK though that something needs to be different between the two belts. The only other idea is, maybe, making one a definite #2 and the other a definite #3. Eve and Titus could go title vs title, with the losers belt going into match/tournament of wrestlers who have never won a belt before.
Prince Vee
Better than I think I am
I corroborate with Showtime on not bringing the new title.
My idea would be, making the Elite X title to defend the title, when booked on Meltdown. When the champion is booked on Ascension, he/she doesn't need to defend that title. Make the bookings in accordance with that. Power struggle between Becky and Bateman to book the champion or the feud leading to a tag team action on Ascension. Fill in that with your ideas. So every time the Elite X champion is on the flagship show, he/she must defend the title. It wouldn't be so hard to give a reason why she doesn't feature on Meltdown for that concerned week.
My idea would be, making the Elite X title to defend the title, when booked on Meltdown. When the champion is booked on Ascension, he/she doesn't need to defend that title. Make the bookings in accordance with that. Power struggle between Becky and Bateman to book the champion or the feud leading to a tag team action on Ascension. Fill in that with your ideas. So every time the Elite X champion is on the flagship show, he/she must defend the title. It wouldn't be so hard to give a reason why she doesn't feature on Meltdown for that concerned week.
The only way that could work without getting too complicated would be to have them defend it every other round. Currently anyone can get booked for either show. Nothing dictates at this time that a champion would get booked on three Meltdowns in a row as opposed to once per cycle, for example. The champion's schedule for the cycle would have to look something like "Ascension, Meltdown title defense, Ascension, PPV title defense" and then repeat if they retain, then give them a world title shot after enough cycles. It sounds better on paper than it actually would be. It gives a happy medium though, those who want unpredictability and more opportunities get that while those who don't want "every round is a title shot" get a break in between the title match rounds.
Hyorinmaru
Sit Upon The Frozen Heavens
I like the idea of a Tournament/Battle Royal full of people who have never won a title. Maybe doing that once a quarter. I also like Falk's idea of redefining the Elite Openweight Championship.
My favorite idea is still bringing in a new title and here's why. Even if we go with both ideas above we have a challenger who has never held a title going for the Elite Openweight Championship. Odds are very good it would be someone nowhere near Falk's level because the majority of people who haven't held a title are lower card guys not even near Falk's level. That puts us right where I don't think we should be and that's with a lopsided match with Falk getting a pretty easy win.
I also hate the idea of continuously vacating or stripping the champion all the time. Eventually it would devalue the Championship itself which would suck.
My favorite idea is still bringing in a new title and here's why. Even if we go with both ideas above we have a challenger who has never held a title going for the Elite Openweight Championship. Odds are very good it would be someone nowhere near Falk's level because the majority of people who haven't held a title are lower card guys not even near Falk's level. That puts us right where I don't think we should be and that's with a lopsided match with Falk getting a pretty easy win.
I also hate the idea of continuously vacating or stripping the champion all the time. Eventually it would devalue the Championship itself which would suck.
Prince Vee
Better than I think I am
I had said before and I'll say it again. The stable Vis Imperium is threatening! I just don't have a clue who can even stop them. Excited to see where this is headed!!
There's one thing that i thought of that may help. A recruitment drive. I figure we can go around members of the forum, old and new, to test the waters. I think we all agree that the roster is low, too low to do anything revolutionary with. If there could be five new members added to the roster list then that changes things drastically in my eyes. Plus if we could get people back on top of that like Coco maybe, Theo, Thriller, Kermit, , then that puts us in a much stronger position.
I dont know if that means making changes to the entry rules or what but I believe that it could work. Hell it's how NSL got me back.
On another note, who here remembers the Mentorship Program? Four words, what was I thinking?
I dont know if that means making changes to the entry rules or what but I believe that it could work. Hell it's how NSL got me back.
On another note, who here remembers the Mentorship Program? Four words, what was I thinking?
List me first next time. It could really help your cause.
It's because I disagreed with you, isn't it
Me and my partner have our work cut out for us.
Find'er Woo'er Ryder
:( lost ma Mayhem Title
I was part of the Membership Program. It gave something for everyone to do. I wasn't just booked in a random match. I had something to write about besides how I wanted to get put in a title match or a feud. Dynamite was part of it as well and I don't think he would have gotten as far as he did so fast, without being apart of it. Maybe something like that would work.
I thought about the idea of a champion vs champion match and the loser will have to forfeit their title and the more I think about it, the more I hate it. I may be wrong but I don't really like the idea of putting Titus and Eve against eachother just to get some new fresh into the title picture. They should not be punished for being the best and that is what it sounds like to me.
Now, I would actually like to see them together in a match as I do think they are the best the fed has to offer right now.
I also like the idea of putting in a recruitment push.
Hyorinmaru
Sit Upon The Frozen Heavens
I'm liking all the matches, not just mine.
It got so much shit at the time. Looking back I guess it was a good use of the talent and it's interesting to see who survived it. It was a massive roster back then too.
I'd love to see a Titus/Eve Taylor feud and the champion vs champion aspect of it could play into but in truth, this should be based around going for the World Title. I'd LOVE to see Titus have a heel WHC run. I'd put money on this being the feud going from LL to KC and beyond.
I'd love to see a Titus/Eve Taylor feud and the champion vs champion aspect of it could play into but in truth, this should be based around going for the World Title. I'd LOVE to see Titus have a heel WHC run. I'd put money on this being the feud going from LL to KC and beyond.
Find'er Woo'er Ryder
:( lost ma Mayhem Title
I agree. Titus is my favorite character at the moment and really want to see him as the WHC.
Da Prophet
Mid-Card Championship Winner
Cooper gonna fake his death again this round.
Viola Moonlight
I'm Literally Just Here for WZCW
Fair enough, but how about more regularly, as opposed to every round? The World title is the big one and should be kept for special occasions and challengers. The Eurasian title fits the bill of being a feud-based title, and could be defended more; however, I think the "Openweight" in the Elite Openweight title implies any challenger, so why not have it defended more than PPV's, and why does it have to be a feud? Not every round, but maybe once during the regular rounds as well? Slot it as the main event of Ascension (maybe Meltdown), and it gives something cool during the regular rounds.
As stated, the Elite Openweight title is the closest title we've got a television title, so there isn't a need to bring in ANOTHER title. We only just have enough people on the roster to handle the titles we've got right now.
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My major point: Give the title back to the people who are struggling/new/rising up the ranks, so they have something to compete against. The Elite Openweight title is in the best position to do so. Having nothing creates a rift for those lower tier guys, being shut out of working towards something; what keeps them here? Sure, you can get better at RPing, but in matches with no consequence, what incentive is there? You're either forced to feud with someone (one that necessarily isn't considered high-profile for creative, compared to all other feuds/title matches), or make a tag team.
The biggest problem: What happens if the champion outgrows the division? I suggested methods of doing so, but booking can get really tricky and it really becomes a case-by-case basis; it is very delicate and if handled incorrectly, it can get messy. Should someone like Sam Smith, Rush or Vega come along, creative should discuss with that person to see what they want to do. There has been a time where Alex Bowen made complaints about not moving, and wanting to remain champion, so it can be difficult and I understand the difficulty... but in that one rare instance, he eventually lost the title to Armando Paradyse, of all people, who "reset" the title.
I'm not saying to cut people off at the legs during their best work, and remove the title from them with force. I'm suggesting a process where the outgrown champion organically moves on into a different division, like the Eurasian & World title scene, without hurting them, as well as bringing the title back to the people who are struggling/new/rising the ranks. This gives the outgrown champion bigger and better opportunities, whilst the other guys get something they can realistically fight for. This is classic wrestling booking 101.
Hyorinmaru
Sit Upon The Frozen Heavens
I like that idea.
