WZCW Discussion Thread

[The Doctor]

Doc, good show feedback, but wish you had expanded on your comment about writing matches in the same style, which matches you liked, didnt like and why etc

Keep in mind my feedback was very immediate in regards to my emotions on the show, and it was written late at night. I might try and break it down and give you more reasoned analysis some time this week, if I don't forget.

(Note, halfway through writing this I realized I came across as very negative. I'm not trying to be - I love it here and just want to point out some things I've noticed with the fed and everyone. Love you all really.)

The main problem I think (and this is less about the show, more about WZCW as a whole) is two-fold: One, not everyone who deserves to be champion can be champion at the same time. Big Dave deserved the belt, but any of those men would have made interesting champions, and even Ty retaining would have been a great storyline. However, since he was out-RP'd, Dave got the belt. Part of me thinks that if Gordito wins it at AoN, it would mean less than if he had ended Ty's reign as champion. Of course, outside of kayfabe we know that it would mean Gordito blew it out of the park, since Phoenix delivers great RPs as evidence obviously by his one for this round. Personally, I think all three of the tournament finalists deserved to win and go on to AoN. That's part of the reason I didn't vote, I simply couldn't eliminate either Gordito or Saboteur and I wasn't going to vote against myself since I already suspected I'd be the one to be voted out.

Two: Since WZCW is based RP-to-RP, storylines are handled differently from a regular wrestling federation and as such needs to be looked at and viewed as something different from, say, the WWE. The RP-to-RP style can make WZCW very interesting and unpredictable, but I can imagine it makes booking longterm storylines very difficult. Since you guys vote RP-to-RP instead of, say, booking matches based on storylines like a regular wrestling company does. It's probably WZCW's biggest positive AND its biggest negative.

WZCW is a pretty great place, and I think the system we have is a good one. Wanting to win causes people to deliver good RPs consistently since it provides immediate results, but on the other hand it also forces people to play for a win instead of for character development or fun. The best RPs combine character development and the desire to win, but I feel like sometimes Creative and even the RPers themselves forget that just running down their opponents and saying how awesome they are or how hardcore they are gets boring as hell.

Obviously, an RP where one creatively runs down an opponent can be great. I point to Steven Holmes' RP from this round as an example. His story of the two brothers was incredibly well-done, combining a unique framing and heel tactics with his own character to create a very nice RP.

For the WZCW shows themselves, I feel like every Creative member is in competition with each other to steal the show. That's fine with me when it comes to a PPV, where every match should be great, but on a regular Meltdown or Ascension I feel that you guys try and come up with five star spots and matches far too often. I was going to cite an example here of a match that should have been a squash and was far too competitive for its own good, but that would be mean. Let me just say that if everything is five stars, nothing will be. Wrestling needs its ups and downs - Why do you think squash matches and nonmatches exist? There are just some times on Meltdowns and Ascensions when you guys are trying way too hard to make everyone look credible when someone in particular has no business looking credible at least at that moment in time. Find the balance. Crests and valleys, folks.

This is just one man's disconnected opinion. WZCW's great and all but there are a few things I'd have a look at, and a few things I know can't be changed.

 

[Gelgarin]

And here we have why I've historically found it necessary to attach a disclaimer to my feedback telling people exactly what to expect.

If a point of feedback is not providing specific direction on how to improve something then it's a waste of everyone's time. Sugar coated compliment sandwiches are the resource of HR operatives and middle managers, not editors.

The reason that I almost never request feedback myself is that most of what is provided isn't really feedback. You read through someone providing commentary on a dozen different people and discover that they've enjoyed almost everything that everyone wrote and only highlighted one or two issues that people could improve on. That's not feedback, that's encouragement, and that's absolutely fine; encouragement is just as important as criticism (and for many far more so), it's just not what I do.

 

[Johnny Scumm]

And here we have why I've historically found it necessary to attach a disclaimer to my feedback telling people exactly what to expect.

If a point of feedback is not providing specific direction on how to improve something then it's a waste of everyone's time. Sugar coated compliment sandwiches are the resource of HR operatives and middle managers, not editors.

The reason that I almost never request feedback myself is that most of what is provided isn't really feedback. You read through someone providing commentary on a dozen different people and discover that they've enjoyed almost everything that everyone wrote and only highlighted one or two issues that people could improve on. That's not feedback, that's encouragement, and that's absolutely fine; encouragement is just as important as criticism (and for many far more so), it's just not what I do.

All that negative feedback Gelg and then you still failed to spell "Summary" right? Aha.

 

[Барбоса]

Doc, good show feedback, but wish you had expanded on your comment about writing matches in the same style, which matches you liked, didnt like and why etc

I completely agree with Doc on the lack of consistency with regard to formatting. It is hardly a big thing but it definitely something that I have noticed and it is easily fixable with a template for match posts to give a standard outline for formatting.

However, I disagree in regard to actual different style of match writing. While I do not really pay much attention to who has written which match when I am reading them, I cannot help by think that we would be losing something if everyone had the same style.

 

[Ty Burna]

Meh, writing for MD and AS, the general rule of thumb is the length doesn't matter (minus the main events or an important match). I hate to say that but it's true. Thing is we have some extremely dedicated people in Creative so writing a quick squash when it's not involving a no show seems like slacking off to me and I'm sure the other creative members do as well. We want all our writing to be top notch and provide the best matches, storylines etc to you. So unless someone no showed and deserves a squash accordingly, we won't write a squash match for the sake of a squash match. Why? Well let's say it happens to you. You put a lot of time and effort into your RP. It didn't turn out well but you still put a lot of effort into it, all for the sake of reading a one paragraph loss. I think I'd be a little upset/disappointed about that. Why would I put all my time into writing an RP every other week when the writers don't give equal effort into my matches?

 

[The Doctor]

I completely agree with Doc on the lack of consistency with regard to formatting. It is hardly a big thing but it definitely something that I have noticed and it is easily fixable with a template for match posts to give a standard outline for formatting.

However, I disagree in regard to actual different style of match writing. While I do not really pay much attention to who has written which match when I am reading them, I cannot help by think that we would be losing something if everyone had the same style.

Yeah, I don't want WZCW to lose that personal touch - That's what makes it great after all. I suppose my complaint is more about formatting than style.

 

[Ty Burna]

I completely agree with Doc on the lack of consistency with regard to formatting. It is hardly a big thing but it definitely something that I have noticed and it is easily fixable with a template for match posts to give a standard outline for formatting.

Agreed on this part. We need to get that sorted out.

However, I disagree in regard to actual different style of match writing. While I do not really pay much attention to who has written which match when I am reading them, I cannot help by think that we would be losing something if everyone had the same style.

It'd be boring, and to try to have everyone write the same style would be near impossible. How I write my matches is completely different from Blade's or Number's. Not only that, but each writer has their own strengths when it comes to writing matches. To simply make everyone write in one style would very likely cause all of us to abandon the writing styles and strengths that we have cultivated. I've been writing matches for around two years now, my style has changed and I'd be pissed if I had to switch up how I go about writing to match everyone else.

Formatting though, yeah we'll take a look at that.

 

[DirtyJosé]

Whoa, what universe have I fallen into here? WHAT'S GOING ON!?!?!?!

Doc has a some good valid points. I would say our system is unique, but I'm just taking his word on that; I've never RP'd anywhere else nor do I intend to. I think he has a point about people going for a win instead of doing some character development, but then again he hesitates to mention that big winners of the past here manage to nail both at the same time.

As far as feedback goes, Gelgarin also has a point; there is encouragement, and then there is criticism. Both are healthy. Both are good, in moderation. Too much of either is toxic. We all like a pat on the back and some support now and then. We all also like to hear where we can improve and what did or didn't work. Gelg gets a slightly stiff rep because he doesn't do encouragement, he criticizes. I've asked him before for feedback, and I will ask him again in the future I'm sure. I know what I'm getting with him and I appreciate it and more importantly, I can use it. So Gelgarin doesn't like your RP, big deal; he's not on Creative. But if you can go into the meat and potatoes of his feedbacks and pull out some things you can work on, he did you favor. Even if he is a big stinky head meany.

 

[a0161613]

Gelg, it wasn't meant to be a massive criticism. I know you look at things here such a massively different point of view and I do appreciate that - I certainly take your point about nothing changing because I know my RP was a set up for Ricky's.

Like I said, I knew we lost and now need to figure out how we get better because obviously we aren't being good enough.

You are spot on Doc. Booking RP to RP is tough, we sometimes try to go cycle to cycle but life makes that difficult and even then, sometimes the same talent keep on popping up. I'm glad everyone seems to be appreciative of how good Dave's RP was, I'm in agreement, I thought it was pretty spectacular.

Judging RPs can be extremely tough, we aren't always going to be in agreement with the masses. You point out Holmes' RP as a case in point - the feud was begging for Holmes to take the title. We know Funkay wasn't too impressed with the outcome. I certainly feel the same about the tag match outcome but again, it's something that we can never do right.

You do have a point about the matches too. I've been guilty of writing quantity on MD & AS and then trying to outdo myself on PPV, maybe we have a competition but it's certainly not talked about too much. But I'm pretty sure I format my matches differently to everyone else.

But this is why we value show reviews so much. We have to hear this kind of thing otherwise we will just keep on doing what we are doing. There are only so many ideas that we can come up with.

Unfortunately, I can't agree with your original point about the tag match but I'm not sure how serious that was. We were never going to bring in someone who wasn't going to pose a significant threat to Stantime. We think MoM and RRR did that especially as we get two potentially great feuds coming out of it.

But the awful Anthony Michaels would never be allowed back in WZCW. Too many bad memories.

Seriously though, thanks for the review!

 

[The Doctor]

Meh, writing for MD and AS, the general rule of thumb is the length doesn't matter (minus the main events or an important match). I hate to say that but it's true. Thing is we have some extremely dedicated people in Creative so writing a quick squash when it's not involving a no show seems like slacking off to me and I'm sure the other creative members do as well. We want all our writing to be top notch and provide the best matches, storylines etc to you. So unless someone no showed and deserves a squash accordingly, we won't write a squash match for the sake of a squash match. Why? Well let's say it happens to you. You put a lot of time and effort into your RP. It didn't turn out well but you still put a lot of effort into it, all for the sake of reading a one paragraph loss. I think I'd be a little upset/disappointed about that. Why would I put all my time into writing an RP every other week when the writers don't give equal effort into my matches?

That's the thing though. I don't mean it all needs to be squashes, but not every match needs to be match of the year. I understand wanting to provide quality to match quality promos, but the thing with this is that it all comes down to people wanting visible, immediate rewards that in the long run can in fact degrade the quality of a show. It's a paradox, but one necessary to good writing. If a story is nothing but huge spots and excitement, the climax has no impact. If a match is nothing but 450 splashes through flaming tables, the final one that just so happens to be the match-ender doesn't feel special.

Again, WZCW's RP-to-RP style is very visceral and immediately rewarding, but can be detrimental in the long run. It's a big positive and a negative but it can't be changed without messing everything up.

I'm really not trying to start anything, just stating an opinion. There's a reason divas matches are usually placed between big main events on PPVs, and most TV shows have episodes strategically placed just before the big climax that are more comic relief than anything.

Unfortunately, I can't agree with your original point about the tag match but I'm not sure how serious that was. We were never going to bring in someone who wasn't going to pose a significant threat to Stantime. We think MoM and RRR did that especially as we get two potentially great feuds coming out of it.

But the awful Anthony Michaels would never be allowed back in WZCW. Too many bad memories.

Seriously though, thanks for the review!

Heh yeah, my tag team match part was mostly kidding around. I do love MOM and the match itself was rather good. As for the review (and this discussion) - Any time. I love having candid discussions about what's going on, looking deeper into things. Hope you guys know that I'm not trying to be negative or mean or anything.

 

[Gelgarin]

All that negative feedback Gelg and then you still failed to spell "Summary" right? Aha.

Snarf snarf.

 

[DirtyJosé]

I rather like that there aren't really piss quick matches week to week on MD/AS. I like and agree with Ty's point that we'd have a lot more whiners in here if each week they spent hours on an RP just to see their guys get stomped rather quickly. Being that we aren't a real TV show and that we make enough bends and concessions to traditional wrestling concepts to allow ourselves the room to play in this little fantasy world, I think letting ourselves accept that weekly MD/AS broadcasts all have top of the line matches start to finish isn't too big of a stretch of the imagination.

 

[Ty Burna]

Not to mention we've had interesting and fun ways for matches to end quickly.

Take a look at Baller selling T shirts instead of wrestling because he was unbeaten against Ricky.

 

[GI Cake]

I don't know if I said it before but I love to hear more about what I did wrong instead of what I did right in RP's. I still thank Showtime for the harsh feedback he gave me on my first RP. If I didn't hear the harsh reality on my shitty RP I would have either quit due to not being able to win a contract or win a contract and become a punching bag for whoever is the comedy jobber here.

That being said, it is also good to hear what you do right in a RP so if you were kinda shaky on what you did new in the RP is more reassuring and helps continuing the trend of quality RP's we have around these parts.

 

[Harthan]

The difference in RP-to-RP versus long term booking was a big point of contention when I was on creative. It can be a mess of a subject to get into. I still don't know the right answer. I think that strictly booking long term takes the fun out of RPing and engaging in WZCW and makes the fed more like a Book This, which is bad. At the same time, strictly RP-to-RP can make a lot of storylines have poor payoff (or shoot them in the foot from the beginning). Nowadays I lean strongly to RP-to-RP, as I think the fun is more important than writing perfectly booked storylines. If you want the latter, I think that's what Book This is for. As long as everyone is having fun, RP-to-RP works great. I think creative has always done a good job of spinning the RP results in good storylines, as well.

 

[The Doctor]

Hey, I'm not saying you guys aren't great or anything and that WZCW is devoid of creativity, but there are times here and there where it starts to just get a little tiring with MOTY after MOTY. Too much of a good thing, etc.

As for being pissed that they're in a throwaway match - Eh, I know everyone wants their chance to shine but not everything can happen all at once. Ideally, WZCW should be a place where we develop a character and improve on writing while learning from feedback and moving up the ranks. It should be fun, and that's why I love it so much. If you recall, one of my first matches as Action Saxton was a total throwaway match. It was a six-man (?) tag match that lasted a paragraph or two. It felt exactly like a filler match should and I wasn't pissed because it's just the nature of the beast. My point on the titles can be used here too - not everyone is going to shine at the same time. Just like on a TV show or in a book, or in any other form of fictional media.

To use my favorite western cartoon as an example: In Adventure Time, you have most of your episodes featuring Finn and Jake (the main eventers). Then you have massively popular upper midcarder episodes (Marceline) and then in other episodes you give your jobber (The Ice King) a bit of spotlight. You can't do it all at once, though. Sometimes Finn and Jake need to step aside to give some spotlight to Marceline and Princess Bubblegum, and there's at least one episode where Jake doesn't appear at all and Finn is just a supporting character to everyone else.

The cool thing about wrestling is that we can try to do it all at once, but at the end of the day there's a reason the main event is, well, the main event.

...I totally had a point here, but I seem to have lost my train of thought. I just love diving into this. I mean, we talk about WWE and TNA's backstage goings-on, so why not WZCW? I find discussions like this fascinating, getting everyone's opinions on everything and some insight into how it all works. It's why the RP tips and "Little-known facts about characters and RPers" threads are some of my favorites. Speaking of, I'm going to bump that thread with a potentially interesting fact.

 

[Daniel]

Great show, congratulations to the winners, yadda, yadda...

I'm really looking forward to what happens next, not just for me, but for every storyline - I'm actually interested in all of them.

Now that Stantime is over (I'm assuming), you're going to see a new Stan Rogers. I feel like my past few RPs haven't been up to scratch, so I'm going to gradually change style. This next week can't go soon enough!

 

[Miko]

I understand that you dont want to hurt feelings and all that, but maybe having someone get squashed or beaten badly could be creatives way of telling you that they thought your RP sucked or was a lot worse than your opponents. Its like mine, I put in really strong efforts in the matches but lose in a comical way, and seeing how not much feedback I get is actually very criticising (Falkon told me to stop hitting NPC's once though) I take this to mean I've done okay, but I am really not sure if I've put forward a steaming pile of shit in comparison or an RP that was as close to my opponents as the match suggested. As someone that doesnt really care if he loses every match its not all that troublesome, its also funny seeing what new and interesting way S.H.I.T's going to lose this week. It's just like with Gelgarins feedback though, sometimes its good to just shove a harsh truth at someone.

I'll admit to having taken the advice of just developing my admittedly rather stupid character and not RP'ing to win, and its more fun this way. "The tender love story of S.H.I.T and the German."

 

[Phoenix]

Great show, congratulations to the winners, yadda, yadda...

I'm really looking forward to what happens next, not just for me, but for every storyline - I'm actually interested in all of them.

Now that Stantime is over (I'm assuming), you're going to see a new Stan Rogers. I feel like my past few RPs haven't been up to scratch, so I'm going to gradually change style. This next week can't go soon enough!

He's investing in colour photographs?

Seriously though, I look forward to see how you do.

 

[The Crock]

Obviously, an RP where one creatively runs down an opponent can be great. I point to Steven Holmes' RP from this round as an example. His story of the two brothers was incredibly well-done, combining a unique framing and heel tactics with his own character to create a very nice RP.

It was an amazing RP. I was elated I won, but I'm sure there are people out there who were pulling for Holmes and aren't happy with the decision.

Managing WZCW isn't an easy job, so my hat's off to creative for how well they do their thing.

 

[Барбоса]

I always meant to ask Creative how they planned their feuds. Personally, I think I would find booking RP-to-RP a little too unpredictable for want of a better phrase. Individuals could pick up victories when it is really not in the best interests of their character, their opponent, the on-going feud/story or the fed in general.

I mean with a rigid RP-to-RP system of judging there is a chance that a rivalry that would be perfect for a long term chase with a heel champion Honky Tonking his way to repeated victories be cut off at the first encounter with the face challenger taking the title because he had the best RP. Should that RP be taken into account when it comes to the big climax two PPVs down the road? Absolutely. But why should Creative hamstring themselves and their stories by following such a rigid system?

I understand that it can be dangerous to plan way ahead especially when an RPers quality falls off and it looks like Creative is protecting him for a match that they are no longer worthy of but surely there is some necessary judging against the quality of RPs at times?

 

[Hawkeye]

I'm still pumped about my win. I can't wait to see what's next.

 

[Johnny Scumm]

I wanna see what's gonna happen. The stripping was very strange.

 

[Baller]

I also wonder where I go from here. This week break will be torture

 

[Johnny Scumm]

Indeed it will. Just a though, am I the youngest member currently in the Fed?

EDIT: Baller is also 17. When you born, this is down to the nail.