WWE Region, Miami Subregion, Second Round: (2) Bret Hart vs. (18) Rikidozan

[klunderbunker]

This is a second round match in the WWE Region, Miami Subregion. It is a standard one on one match held under WWE Rules. It will be held at the American Airlines Arena in Miami, Florida. Assume one week has passed since the first round match.

#2. Bret Hart

Vs.

#18. Rikidozan

​

Polls will be open for three days following a one day period for discussion. Voting will be based on who you feel is the greater of the two competitors. Post your reasons for why your pick should win below. Remember that this is non-spam and the most votes in the poll win. Any ties will be broken by the amount of posts of support for each candidate, with one vote per poster.

Also remember that this is a non-spam forum. If you post a response without giving a reason for your selection, it will be penalized for spam and deleted.

 

[Tastycles]

You know who's definitely a bigger draw than Bret Hart? Lots of people, but amongst the most obvious is Rikidozan. They both got their best reaction being anti-American, though in very different ways. Look, Hart had a lot of great matches, but I think he struggled with actually selling a feud. The ones people remember are the one with Owen, because they're brothers, and the one with Michaels, because they legimately hated each other. Hart's other feuds - Yokozuna, Diesel etc. are not really memorable at all. I just think that for all his prowess in the ring, Hart was never a great choice as World Champion, and when it comes to drawing, he's simply not in Rikidozan's league.

 

[Bernkastel]

This should be even clearer than the Undertaker vs Mitsuharu Misawa match. Misawa was All Japan biggest draw in the late 90's, and helped NOAH become a major force in the Japanese professional wrestling game, but Rikidozan was head and shoulders above him. This guy was Giant Baba's mentor [Misawa's mentor] and was unarguably the biggest star that Japan has ever had. Antonio Inoki is close, but even wasn't drawing the crowds upon crowds of people that rallied behind him. This was right after the war, and the Japanese needed a hero - and Rikidozan was that hero. And I find the fact that he was able to become so popular due to the well known fact that he was Korean. Japan was still very racist, and ethnocentric towards other Asian's that weren't Japanese... something Rikidozan experienced allot when he was a sumo... but yet despite all of that he became the Hulk Hogan or El Santo of Japan. Amazing.

Despite popular belief Bret Hart is not the cultural icon that's he's sometimes made out to be. Bret Hart wasn't to Canada, what Rikidozan was to Japan. Wayne Gretzky would be more like the Rikidozan of Canada. Bret's prime came when he was WWE Champion in the mid 90's - which is often cited as the worst financial period in the company's history. Rikidozan was so popular a draw, that some of his records still go unmatched even today.

There wasn't a single big name at the time that Rikidozan didn't conquer in Japan, but the man was also a big draw in the States. Even though he primarily worked as a heel, he still managed to beat some huge names... names that far eclipsed Harts. His famous title match against Lou Thesz where Rikidozan defeated him to win the NWA International title? He didn't win that in Japan, no, he won it in California. Rikidozan beat Lou Thesz. Clean. For a major title. IN THE STATES.

There shouldn't be any doubt that he'd be able to beat Bret Hart anywhere. The man was internationally known, and was defeating greats while Hart was still in diapers.

Be smart here, vote Rikidozan.

 

[HBsam31]

I have to vote for Rikidozan. For the same reason I voted for him in the first round. He was a top star in Japan for years. Bret was the top guy in the WWF in a time where viewing was way down. After Hogan, Bret took over as my favorite, and as much as I want to vote for him I can't. The arguments I have read about Rikidozen in both rounds are more than enough for me to vote for him here.

 

[Brewski]

Rikidozan is an absolute legend of the business and he won EVERYWHERE. I don't really need to go in to depth on why im voting for him because you can see good enough reasons above. The reason I'm not voting for Bret though is because I've never really considered what he's done in the business THAT great. Like yeah one of the best technical wrestlers ever, but really he's best known as the guy that got fucked over by McMahon and HBK. Amazing to watch, absolutely. But he doesn't have the resume of a guy like Rikidozan.

What's interesting is that NOBODY has made an argument for hart here and as of right now he's winning. (8-7) Can somebody explain why? (I mean make an argument for the man, not that he's more popular)

 

[deem]

I don't want to by hypocritical here and I argued for Brody in the first round against Rikidozan. Hart>Brody ofc, but I think I'm taking Riki here too.

First, this is the problems I have with Rikidozan that others don't. Sure, he drew more than the rest of Japan, I'll take that. It's news to me that he was a bigger draw than Inoki - I intuitively thought it would be the other way round, but I have no facts to base that on. You guys do and I defer to that. That said - if you put Inoki in Rikidozans time, you really think he wouldn't achieve the same?

It's so, so hard to analyse guys who were done by the mid-60s. Respect their legacies, for some respect their workrate, but analysing how they would hold up in their prime against future wrestlers in their prime is so hard. Personally, I think in kayfabe Inoki would be a tougher opponent than Rikidozan. I'd certainly put him over Hart too though, so that doesn't detract me too much. I'd also put Thesz over Hart quite easily, and Rikidozan was billed as his equal during their matches. That certainly DOES influence me.

While Brody has a great record Vs the more current legends of Japan, Bret Hart doesn't. In fact, Bret Hart didn't have a great record vs many. Terrific worker, mad over, helped out the WWF at a bad time, never kayfabe set the world alight. He never got that big rub of going over a Hogan, or a Savage. He had his tv win over Flair, he had a Wrestlemania win over Piper, but after that he was thrust into the main event and billed as a fighting, but underdog champion. Bonafide main eventers he beat since then? Michaels, but before he was anywhere near his first title. Yoko, but that barely made an impression given it just cancelled out his loss at the previous Wrestlemania to him. Diesel is a legitimate one, but shortly after that he gave the clean rub to Michaels and let him have his run. After that he achieved nothing of note before giving the rub to Austin and readying him for superstardom. He won his fifth title against The Undertaker in a big win, before holding until the screwjob effectively ended his prime.

His WCW tenure was underwhelming too - a scattering of wins over Flair, a controversial series of wins over Goldberg that ended his career and a tournament win full of midcarders for the WCW title, other than Sting.

Basically, what I'm saying is his career, although a success, peaked in the early 90s of WWF easily. During that time, his big wins were Vs Roddy Piper for the IC title, Ric Flair on TV, Diesel on PPV and The Undertaker on PPV. That's it. He's certainly been selfless and helped out others careers more than anyone helped out his - that's to his credit in the business, not in a kayfabe tournament.

I think Rikidozan is overhyped. If everyone is in their prime here, his influence of an innovative trendsetter is nullified by his lack of competition during his time, compared to how loaded this tournament is. That said, Bret is certainly more overrated and I'm happy to give Riki the win here.

If Bret wins, fine. If Riki wins, he shouldn't get past Orton imo.

 

[Bernkastel]

First, this is the problems I have with Rikidozan that others don't. Sure, he drew more than the rest of Japan, I'll take that. It's news to me that he was a bigger draw than Inoki - I intuitively thought it would be the other way round, but I have no facts to base that on. You guys do and I defer to that. That said - if you put Inoki in Rikidozans time, you really think he wouldn't achieve the same?

Inoki does have a more illustrious career than Rikidozan, and was a bigger international draw than he was, but that's because Rikidozan was murdered when he was just 39. By that time Inoki was 20 years old, and had already started his career. So yeah, if Rikidozan hadn't of died he would have most definitely wrestled into Inoki's prime through the 70's and 80's.

It is kind of like an Owen/Eddie thing with Rikidozan, but the difference between him and them is that he was already a massive star by the time he died and not just entering his prime - so big a star that many of his records as a draw in his home country were never shattered. And even in the States Rikidozan was beating guys like Thesz, Freddy Blassie, and Destroyer who were huge names at the time.

Was Rikidozan Japan's biggest draw nationally? Absolutely. Was he Japan's biggest draw internationally? Probably not; Inoki has him beat.

 

[UrUp]

No offense to the Undertaker's streak, "Mr. Wrestlemania" Shawn Michaels, Steve Austin, The Rock, Triple H and others, but in my opinion Hart is the greatest performer in Wrestlemania history. Just think about Hart's Wrestlemania career: great Intercontinental Title match with Roddy Piper, WWF Title match with Yokozuna, family feud match with Owen Hart, a rematch with Yokozuna, Submission Match with Bob Backlund, the Iron Man Match that put Shawn Michaels on the map and the Submission Match that put Steve Austin on the map. Nobody has a Wrestlemania resume that good.

Hart might of done decent in WWE at some point, but he's uncomparable to all the greats. Riki wins this one hands down, because he was a pioneer and he personified what it meant to be a greco roman wrestler. I don't dislike Bret Hart for all the shits he's pulled and the people he's tried to bring down, I just feel he's terribly overrated. Steve Austin and Goldberg are way better then him and should hold wins over him.

In Miamia, Florida, Riki is surely more well known and popular and would win this match.

 

[The Crock]

I've never been big on Bret and this match-up is a quick opportunity to get him out of this tournament. Rikidozan was a transcendent star -- something Bret Hart cannot claim to be. For all the talk of how Bret Hart was a big Canadian star, he's nothing compared to how big of a star Rikidozan was in Japan (seriously, the guy was in a bunch of movies and was a legitimate icon in Japan). Hart was a product of his era, I can't imagine he would have been a top guy had the WWE had more viable options -- and, honestly, it shows. WWE went through some of its worst times with Bret Hart at the helm. To his credit, he was a very good in-ring performer, but that isn't enough to carry him against a legitimate star like Rikidozan.

Ultimately, this comes down to Rikidozan being a bigger deal than Bret Hart and the fact that Bret is trumped up to be far better than he really is. Personally, I'll take the guy that beat Lou Thesz for the NWA International Heavyweight Championship over Bret Hart here.

 

[Bernkastel]

How are the votes tied? Don't vote Bret Hart just because you like him better; that's defeats the point of the tournament. I've yet to see one Bret Hart fan make an argument for him here, while there are 5 or 6 great arguments as to why Rikidozan would hand him his ass.

Don't be a tool and vote your favorites; vote for the better wrestler to move on to the next round. And that's Rikidozan.

 

[Con T.]

Fuck. Bret. Hart.

You know, I don't mind that I'm speaking ill of a man I assume will die in two years anyway, fuck him. The only thing separating Bret Hart from Lance Storm was a steroid indictment.

Bret will always talk up how Flair does formulaic matches, but you know what, Bret? Before John Cena,you were the man of fives move of doom, motherfucker. You talk about how Triple H not being very innovative, and I'm pretty sure the only thing I've seen you invent is that figure four in the post. You invented a submission that can't even be counted; nice going, fuck face.

Who did Rikodozan beat? Thesz. Cool, he's better than Bret. Bret thinks he's on par with Wayne Gretzky? This guy invented the sport in his country.

Rikodozan, all the way. And fuck off, Bret Hart

 

[The Brain]

I voted for Bret Hart. I don’t know enough about Rikidozan to give him my vote. Call it ignorance, call it favoritism. I’ll wear it. I tried to find out some info on Rikidozan and there is very little out there. It looks like what little is out there has been mentioned here without many specifics.

There wasn't a single big name at the time that Rikidozan didn't conquer in Japan

This is the kind of statement that most people read and just accept. Sounds impressive. I'm not doubting it but I would like some examples of those big names. This sentence makes it sound like there are a lot so please list some of them.

but the man was also a big draw in the States. Even though he primarily worked as a heel, he still managed to beat some huge names... names that far eclipsed Harts.

Do you have any names other than Thesz? Getting a win over Thesz is impressive, no doubt, but I need more than one name. Who are some other names that Rikidozan has beaten in the states that far eclipse Hart? Just looking for an education. For the legend that Rikidozan is there is surprisngly little information out there about his wrestling career. I admit I'm not the best internet researcher but I would think I wouldn't have to dig very deep if he was as big as people say he was.

I admit I voted for Bret because I don't know enough about Rikidozan. It's not going to be as much fun if he advances in the tournament because all people are going to do is list the same vague facts they've found on wiki to try to get him by until he comes up against one of their favorites. Rikidozan started and starred in his own wrestling company. Impressive. What was the competition like? Rikidozan beat Lou Thesz. Impressive. Who else did he beat? Let's be honest, none of us know a whole lot about him. That's ok. He's been dead for 50 years. I'm willing to learn and if someone can provide me some more detailed instead of very vague information I might give him more support next year.

 

[Bernkastel]

This is the kind of statement that most people read and just accept. Sounds impressive. I'm not doubting it but I would like some examples of those big names. This sentence makes it sound like there are a lot so please list some of them.

The website that I use isn't all inclusive, but what I can find the list of those he's defeated include The Destroyer, Freddie Blassie, Bob Brazil, Killer Kowalski, and Mike Sharpe - who was a big name in both the States and Canada at the time.

Do you have any names other than Thesz? Getting a win over Thesz is impressive, no doubt, but I need more than one name. Who are some other names that Rikidozan has beaten in the states that far eclipse Hart?

The Destroyer and Kowalski no doubt... there are other big regional names that he defeated that were big in the 50's and 60's, like Buddy Austin - who was also known for his matches with Buddy Rogers. Much like Hart was a big regional name back in the 90's.

It's not going to be as much fun if he advances in the tournament because all people are going to do is list the same vague facts they've found on wiki to try to get him by until he comes up against one of their favorites.

I've searched extensively, and besides big wins over big names he was also a huge draw. The television ratings that he set, and the amount of gates he drew were the largest Japan had ever seen at the time... so big in fact that those records still stand today. Can Bret say something like that? No he can't.

Rikidozan started and starred in his own wrestling company. Impressive. What was the competition like? Rikidozan beat Lou Thesz. Impressive. Who else did he beat?

A mixture of big regional stars from the States, and local Japanese stars.

Let's be honest, none of us know a whole lot about him. That's ok. He's been dead for 50 years. I'm willing to learn and if someone can provide me some more detailed instead of very vague information I might give him more support next year.

His influence can't be ignored though. If you took Rikidozan out of pro wrestling then puro probably wouldn't exist - Rikidozan was responsible for discovering and training both Giant Baba and Antonio Inoki. Take Bret Hart out of wrestling and we'd still have the Dungeon, and WWE would still have stars like Michaels, Taker, Diesel, and Sid.

Don't forget that Rikidozan was much more than just a champion; he was a national hero that, in the eyes of the Japanese public in the 50's, was defending the countries honor after a humiliating defeat in a major war. Can Bret say that? No, he can't.

 

[It's...Baylariat!]

I admit I voted for Bret because I don't know enough about Rikidozan. It's not going to be as much fun if he advances in the tournament because all people are going to do is list the same vague facts they've found on wiki to try to get him by until he comes up against one of their favorites. Rikidozan started and starred in his own wrestling company. Impressive. What was the competition like? Rikidozan beat Lou Thesz. Impressive. Who else did he beat? Let's be honest, none of us know a whole lot about him. That's ok. He's been dead for 50 years. I'm willing to learn and if someone can provide me some more detailed instead of very vague information I might give him more support next year.

http://voices.yahoo.com/the-proud-life-sad-death-rikidozan-429043.html

This is a link to a somewhat detailed bio of Rikidozan. Here are some bullet points.

• Rikidozan was a former Sumo who was actually North Korean and adopted by Japanese parents.
• He brought pro wrestling to Japan. The JWA was the first wrestling promotion in Japan.
• He groomed Antonio Inoki and Shohei 'Giant Baba' and mentored them in the ring.
• He beat Lou Thesz in North America. No small feat by any means.
• He was stabbed at a nightclub and died a week later at the age of 39.

So what that tells me is Rikidozan was the creator of modern Japanese wrestling and his influence still lives on today. Bret Hart's influence is minimal when it comes to wrestling in Canada and in the United States.

That's why I voted Rikidozan.

 

[The_Sharpshooter]

I'm voting for my favorite wrestler, the Hitman. The moments he gave me against Piper, Davey Boy, HBK, & Austin are some of my favorite. There are few people I'll vote for over him, and some guy that I heard of the first time from this tourney last year isn't one of them.

 

[bmpunk76]

my vote goes to Bret Hart. He was a star for almost 20 years in stampede,wwf and wcw.Had classic matches as a tag wrestler and a singles. Hard to compare a wrestler from Japan in that era to a more modern bret hart. So bret for the win for me.

 

[Bernkastel]

I'm voting for my favorite wrestler, the Hitman. The moments he gave me against Piper, Davey Boy, HBK, & Austin are some of my favorite. There are few people I'll vote for over him, and some guy that I heard of the first time from this tourney last year isn't one of them.

Lookie here; it's the first argument from the Hart peanut gallery, and boy is it a doozy... "I'm voting Hart cuz he's my favorite, and I've barely heard of the other guy." You are aware this is a tournament to crown the greatest wrestler ever, and not who's the most popular guy on Wrestlezone forums right? There are plenty of arguments in this thread alone that show why Rikidozan should win this match, and Hart should lose.

Unless you've got a griping argument to show otherwise, it's pretty clear that Rikidozan was a much bigger star than Hart and should go over here.

my vote goes to Bret Hart. He was a star for almost 20 years in stampede,wwf and wcw.Had classic matches as a tag wrestler and a singles. Hard to compare a wrestler from Japan in that era to a more modern bret hart. So bret for the win for me.

I spoke too soon. Commendable, really. But what was Hart's prime? The WWE, and he was never the quality draw as other champions like Austin or Hogan. Rikidozan was putting up TV ratings and drew the kinds of crowds that put Hart to shame. Even if Rikidozan was killed in his prime, he still managed to accomplish more with less time than Hart.

 

[shattered dreams]

I voted Rikidozan just because Bret Hart is one of those guys I don't get why he is so popular. However, I read up on Rikidozan last year and frankly find his rise to fame kind of disgusting as an American.

 

[Big Nick Dudley]

Fuck. Bret. Hart.

You know, I don't mind that I'm speaking ill of a man I assume will die in two years anyway, fuck him. The only thing separating Bret Hart from Lance Storm was a steroid indictment.

Bret will always talk up how Flair does formulaic matches, but you know what, Bret? Before John Cena,you were the man of fives move of doom, motherfucker. You talk about how Triple H not being very innovative, and I'm pretty sure the only thing I've seen you invent is that figure four in the post. You invented a submission that can't even be counted; nice going, fuck face.

Who did Rikodozan beat? Thesz. Cool, he's better than Bret. Bret thinks he's on par with Wayne Gretzky? This guy invented the sport in his country.

Rikodozan, all the way. And fuck off, Bret Hart

Usually you make some sort of sense, but this might be the dumbest thing I've seen from you yet. What's worse than you being wrong is how aggressive you are about it. Bret isn't on the same level as Hulk, Austin or The Rock, but he was a damn fine worker. His matches always told a story, and the story was always different, depending on his opponent. He could adapt to any style match you wanted. The five moves of doom argument is stupid when used against Cena, and it's stupid here.

I understand taking a popular belief (Bret Hart was a fantastic worker) and shitting all over it makes you look like you know something the rest of the crowd might not, but you're wrong here. You can call him overrated, but you sound more like his bitter ex-wife than a wrestling fan.

 

[Bernkastel]

Usually you make some sort of sense, but this might be the dumbest thing I've seen from you yet. What's worse than you being wrong is how aggressive you are about it. Bret isn't on the same level as Hulk, Austin or The Rock, but he was a damn fine worker. His matches always told a story, and the story was always different, depending on his opponent. He could adapt to any style match you wanted. The five moves of doom argument is stupid when used against Cena, and it's stupid here.

I understand taking a popular belief (Bret Hart was a fantastic worker) and shitting all over it makes you look like you know something the rest of the crowd might not, but you're wrong here. You can call him overrated, but you sound more like his bitter ex-wife than a wrestling fan.

Which is all fine and dandy, but that doesn't prove why Bret hart would or should beat Rikidozan. Bret Hart was an awesome worker; there's no denying that, but he wasn't as big of a star as Austin or Hogan - Rikidozan was. Before you scoff, just look at the ratings he drew on television and the attendance gates. They are comparable to numbers that Austin and Hogan were putting up, and that was back in the 50's and 60's. Rikidozan wasn't the face of a country for no reason.

Vote Rikidozan.

 

[Big Nick Dudley]

Which is all fine and dandy, but that doesn't prove why Bret hart would or should beat Rikidozan. Bret Hart was an awesome worker; there's no denying that, but he wasn't as big of a star as Austin or Hogan - Rikidozan was. Before you scoff, just look at the ratings he drew on television and the attendance gates. They are comparable to numbers that Austin and Hogan were putting up, and that was back in the 50's and 60's. Rikidozan wasn't the face of a country for no reason.

Vote Rikidozan.

I didn't say a single word for or against Rikidozan. I know jack shit about international wrestling, so I can't really take a stance here. I voted for Bret seeing he's one of my five or so favorite wrestlers, but I didn't even post in this thread until I saw something ridiculous about Bret Hart being awful and should die soon, and so on. I don't care who wins this match, to be perfectly honest. If Rikidozan was a huge deal, and according to what I've read, he was, then him going over isn't some sort of injustice. I'm good with it, actually.

 

[Aberle4Life]

I'm glad Bret won this match. The Hitman might have an ego, but at least he earned his, unlike a lot of the people that posted in this thread. Whether you like the man or not, Bret's one of the greatest wrestlers of all-time and it wouldn't be ridiculous to put him over anybody.

Oh, and Bret WAS the better seed. Apparently it's not just "Bret fans" that thought he was better. Get off your high horses--you look stupid.

 

[It's...Baylariat!]

I'm glad Bret won this match. The Hitman might have an ego, but at least he earned his, unlike a lot of the people that posted in this thread. Whether you like the man or not, Bret's one of the greatest wrestlers of all-time and it wouldn't be ridiculous to put him over anybody.

Oh, and Bret WAS the better seed. Apparently it's not just "Bret fans" that thought he was better. Get off your high horses--you look stupid.

Blindly voting for someone because of popularity is stupid. This tourney isn't a popularity contest, it's a wrestling tournament. As in, who would win in an actual match. Rikidozan was as good in the ring as anyone in this tournament. Beating LOU THESZ would be enough to prove to me he's better than Bret Hart. And Riki did this in North America, not in Japan. Hart's most well known match is a match where he was jobbed out of the WWF title because he couldn't be trusted to run off to WCW with it.

Bret's big matches are hit or miss when it comes to winning or losing. Then again, he has DVD's and had a cool jacket and sunglasses. Based on the posts here, I know that many more cases were made for Riki than for Hart.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

Blindly voting for someone because of popularity is stupid. This tourney isn't a popularity contest, it's a wrestling tournament. As in, who would win in an actual match. Rikidozan was as good in the ring as anyone in this tournament. Beating LOU THESZ would be enough to prove to me he's better than Bret Hart. And Riki did this in North America, not in Japan. Hart's most well known match is a match where he was jobbed out of the WWF title because he couldn't be trusted to run off to WCW with it.

Bret's big matches are hit or miss when it comes to winning or losing. Then again, he has DVD's and had a cool jacket and sunglasses. Based on the posts here, I know that many more cases were made for Riki than for Hart.

Actually, its an everything tournament, not just a fantasy match tournament. Its supposed to be all-inclusive, drawing, influence, and a fake match.

Which is why its a good thing that Bret Hart won. I know its tough, being that the other guy is old and from Japan, so auto-vote there, but the right man won.

 

[It's...Baylariat!]

Actually, its an everything tournament, not just a fantasy match tournament. Its supposed to be all-inclusive, drawing, influence, and a fake match.

Which is why its a good thing that Bret Hart won. I know its tough, being that the other guy is old and from Japan, so auto-vote there, but the right man won.

That's your opinion, which is what makes this such a goat rodeo sometimes.

The fact that he only won by two means the Bret Hart fanboys had to work extra hard to get him over the top in this one, and that's a victory in my book. Doesn't change my stance that Rikidozan is a better overall wrestler and would win the match.

KABUKI!