WWE Region, Fourth Round, Hell in a Cell: (1) Hulk Hogan vs. (12) Brock Lesnar

[Spidey Revivey]

Just checking in to see if this was still taking place in Madison Square Garden; that place Lesnar has never won and Hogan was never pinned at. It is? Cool.

It should also be noted that Hulk Hogan isn't wearing a cast going in like Taker had to in that one Cell match, and that according to the rules both competitors are still in their prime.

My client, Hulk Hogan, ended Andre The Giant's 15-year winning streak (by what WWE touts anyways), and that wasn't some Pay Per View exclusive.

Forget drawing power for a moment. This is still Hogan's game with or without a roof on the cage.

 

[The Brain]

Just checking in to see if this was still taking place in Madison Square Garden; that place Lesnar has never won and Hogan was never pinned at. It is? Cool.

Yes, this match is taking place in Madison Square Garden. No, this match is not taking place in an arena where Brock Lesnar has never won. Lesnar beat Ric Flair at MSG. Lesnar beat Undertaker in a steel cage match at MSG.

 

[DarksideEric]

I can't believe some people are actually voting Lesnar due to the "brutality" of the cell match. Get with reality. A cell match is the same thing as a cage match, which Hogan has dominated in over time.

Except cage matches don't include the arena floor.

Cage matches also don't include weapons.

Saying a cage match is just like a Cell match is trying to say that a cage match is just like an Elimination Chamber.

They both come from the same core animal, but they have enough differences to make them different matches... hence... why they're different matches.

 

[nightmare]

My client, Hulk Hogan, ended Andre The Giant's 15-year winning streak (by what WWE touts anyways), and that wasn't some Pay Per View exclusive.

What he used to take out Andre, isnt going to be as effective against Lesnar.


Oh, thats cute, you hit a bodyslam on Andre for the memorable moment?


Lesnar walks around with people like Andre draped across his shoulders.

 

[Rayne]

If the WZ tournament was about who'd win a fantasy fist fight, Meng would win every year. But it's not. It's a fantasy professional wrestling contest. Booking still applies.

What's really happening here is anti-Hogan backlash, and this year the TNA guppies have gone into hiding so there's no balancing factor. Add that to the OMG STREAK Choir Of ADD, and you get what we have here: a perfect shit storm of idiocy which puts the big bad villain over the hero, based on "but he's a big bad villain." Are we all watching the same form of entertainment here? Have you folks been paying attention these past thirty years?

We can also drop the whole, "Does Hogan even cell, bro?" argument, unless you're willing to follow that logic to its idiotic conclusion and start saying things like, "Verne Gagne could never win a ladder match against (anyone post-1993) because Gagne never fought in one.

If you've watched professional wrestling in the past thirty years, all this poll is is a yes/no on if you've been paying attention.

 

[DarksideEric]

If the WZ tournament was about who'd win a fantasy fist fight, Meng would win every year. But it's not. It's a fantasy professional wrestling contest. Booking still applies.

Then... why even have gimmick matches? Why hasn't Hogan won every single WZ tournament? I mean... it's Hulk Hogan. How in the world did Shawn Michaels, Bret Hart and Undertaker win these? You think any of them can stand up to the legacy of Hulk Hogan, in his prime, from a booking standpoint?

What's really happening here is anti-Hogan backlash, and this year the TNA guppies have gone into hiding so there's no balancing factor. Add that to the OMG STREAK Choir Of ADD, and you get what we have here: a perfect shit storm of idiocy which puts the big bad villain over the hero, based on "but he's a big bad villain." Are we all watching the same form of entertainment here? Have you folks been paying attention these past thirty years?

We have been watching, we've seen Hogan lose to the Undertaker, have we not?

We can also drop the whole, "Does Hogan even cell, bro?" argument, unless you're willing to follow that logic to its idiotic conclusion and start saying things like, "Verne Gagne could never win a ladder match against (anyone post-1993) because Gagne never fought in one.

Except the smart argument is not "can Hogan even Cell," it's "can Hogan out Cell someone like Brock Lesnar." Myself for example, have never once said Hogan wouldn't know what to do in a Cell, but just because he wouldn't be uncomfortable in it doesn't mean he'd be in the same gear as Lesnar who would thoroughly enjoy the added bonus of having ringside and weapons.

If you've watched professional wrestling in the past thirty years, all this poll is is a yes/no on if you've been paying attention.

Then every single tournament should be ending with Hogan's hand being raised because you could, with the "Hogan Logic" people seem to be employing, argue Hogan's victory out of any match no matter the stipulation.

Hogan vs. Bryan in an Ultimate Submission Match? Lemme tell you something brother, Hulk Hogan in his prime never gives up dude, he'd find some way to beat the odds and twist Bryan until he cried uncle!

Hogan vs. Foley in a Hardcore Match? Well y'know Mean Gene, the Hulkster ain't afraid of no one brother, and Foley can bring all his toys and weapons, but at the end of the day I'll be dropping the big leg across his face for the 1-2-3 brother!

People, seemingly, like to argue for Hulk Hogan in the same way they argue for Batman.

"Batman can beat anyone with enough prep time."

What does that even mean? How do you actually measure that?

You're arguing that Hulk Hogan would beat X because he's simply Hulk Hogan. In a logical discussion that's a wildly hard thing to put any logic behind thanks to the booking of him being invincible in his prime.

Logically, if Hulk Hogan wins simply because that's what he does in his prime (especially against monster heels), how in the world has he not won every tournament?

 

[GI Cake]

Lesnar can't draw shit, no seriously. I'm not even talking about how low the ratings dipped and how PPV buys tanked when Brock was the highlight of the show. I'm talking about his actually ability to draw. Have you seen the tattoo on his chest? He's got a big old penis right in between his moobs. Lesnar beat Taker's Wrestlemania streak, so what? You know what put Wrestlemania on the map? Hulkimania. Without Hulk, Taker wouldn't have a streak and without Taker, Brock would still be remembered as that musclebound dumb ass who tattooed a cock onto his chest.

Oh yeah, Awesome_Miz is going to vote Brock, so there's that.

 

[Rayne]

Then... why even have gimmick matches? Why hasn't Hogan won every single WZ tournament? I mean... it's Hulk Hogan. How in the world did Shawn Michaels, Bret Hart and Undertaker win these? You think any of them can stand up to the legacy of Hulk Hogan, in his prime, from a booking standpoint?

So the point of gimmick matches is then to say "this guy shouldn't win the tournament, and here's my excuse?" That's an entirely facile argument. I've covered the whole "but Cell" argument, it's total bullshit, and I'll only give people credit for it if they're willing to also try and argue that wrestlers in the 1980's couldn't possibly win a ladder match against anyone post HBK/Ramon. They'd just be outclassed. Sure, you're not saying they couldn't win a ladder match, but how could they defeat someone from the more active era? What's the point of having gimmick ladder matches then?

Except the smart argument is not "can Hogan even Cell," it's "can Hogan out Cell someone like Brock Lesnar." Myself for example, have never once said Hogan wouldn't know what to do in a Cell, but just because he wouldn't be uncomfortable in it doesn't mean he'd be in the same gear as Lesnar who would thoroughly enjoy the added bonus of having ringside and weapons.

And.... Hulk Hogan wouldn't?

Right, this is a crazy fantasy fist fight, and so Brock gets Immunity To Chairs and Cage.

Then every single tournament should be ending with Hogan's hand being raised because you could, with the "Hogan Logic" people seem to be employing, argue Hogan's victory out of any match no matter the stipulation.

Hogan didn't "always win". With the exception of Billy Kidman, he just didn't lose to every schmuck out there with large muscles who growled at a camera. Most of Hulk Hogan's entire career was taking a beatdown from the big schmuck with large muscles who growled at a camera for a few weeks before the PPV, then mounting the comeback and beating him. Brock Lesnar isn't some once in an era performer. He's a guy whose had a couple of good runs, who has to clean up spit off his balls occasionally in these threads because OMG STREAK.

Not playing quote wars, so I'm just getting the salient bits and avoiding the chaff. But again, if we're turning this into some crazy fantasy fist fight, explain to me why Meng never makes it that far in the brackets.

 

[Spidey Revivey]

Yes, this match is taking place in Madison Square Garden. No, this match is not taking place in an arena where Brock Lesnar has never won. Lesnar beat Ric Flair at MSG. Lesnar beat Undertaker in a steel cage match at MSG.

Is it truly fair to accept the results of untelivised house shows? Those are the same places titles change hands but the champions aren't recognized. I don't know; that's an interesting question to bring up in the WZT thread. But going off of how WWE accepts the validity of house shows, and that this is WWE territory, I don't believe it's out of line to say the WWE doesn't recognize something as major as a title change, we shouldn't recognize a singles match- cage or not.

Unless WWE has video on those two matches you speak of, and have broadcasted it on one of their telivised shows or pay per views. Then I'd retract my statement.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

The point of this tournament is to make me happy. I believe the bookers recognize this sole fact. Thus therefore it is untofore to untobe there that no previous winners of this tournament will get my vote. Time to freshen things up, voting Brock. Thanks to Brain for this inspiration.

 

[Rayne]

If anything, this has been a good excuse to change my signature, which hasn't been updated since the whole Bound For Glory mess. And if anyone knows anything about professional wrestling, it's that Hulk Hogan cells for nobody.

 

[DarksideEric]

So the point of gimmick matches is then to say "this guy shouldn't win the tournament, and here's my excuse?" That's an entirely facile argument. I've covered the whole "but Cell" argument, it's total bullshit, and I'll only give people credit for it if they're willing to also try and argue that wrestlers in the 1980's couldn't possibly win a ladder match against anyone post HBK/Ramon. They'd just be outclassed. Sure, you're not saying they couldn't win a ladder match, but how could they defeat someone from the more active era? What's the point of having gimmick ladder matches then?

I think the point of the gimmick matches is to make it so that voters are supposed to weigh the pros and cons of it in regards to who is in the match rather than just relying on star power, nostalgia and bias... which is pretty much exactly what people do when it comes to Hulk Hogan. It's also a facile argument to continue going "Hulk Hogan would win because he's Hulk Hogan."

And.... Hulk Hogan wouldn't?

Right, this is a crazy fantasy fist fight, and so Brock gets Immunity To Chairs and Cage.

Who said he'd get immunity? The question is can Hulk keep up with him, not whether or not he can actually hurt him.

Hogan didn't "always win". With the exception of Billy Kidman, he just didn't lose to every schmuck out there with large muscles who growled at a camera. Most of Hulk Hogan's entire career was taking a beatdown from the big schmuck with large muscles who growled at a camera for a few weeks before the PPV, then mounting the comeback and beating him. Brock Lesnar isn't some once in an era performer. He's a guy whose had a couple of good runs, who has to clean up spit off his balls occasionally in these threads because OMG STREAK.

Prime Hogan was all about being the Immortal One, they guy who always found a way to win no matter what in most cases. No, Lesnar's not some once in an era performer, but he's not your generic Earthquake or Zeus either.

Not playing quote wars, so I'm just getting the salient bits and avoiding the chaff. But again, if we're turning this into some crazy fantasy fist fight, explain to me why Meng never makes it that far in the brackets.

Dunno, explain to me how Hart, Michaels and Taker were able to win these tournaments.

 

[Rayne]

I think the point of the gimmick matches is to make it so that voters are supposed to weigh the pros and cons of it in regards to who is in the match rather than just relying on star power, nostalgia and bias... which is pretty much exactly what people do when it comes to Hulk Hogan. It's also a facile argument to continue going "Hulk Hogan would win because he's Hulk Hogan."

It's more, "Hulk Hogan would win because his whole career was based upon winning these exact same types of matches." Not because he was Hulk Hogan, who also lost to the Ultimate Warrior and Billy Kidman. He just didn't lose the matches against the big bad evil villain.

Prime Hogan was all about being the Immortal One, they guy who always found a way to win no matter what in most cases. No, Lesnar's not some once in an era performer, but he's not your generic Earthquake or Zeus either.

Right. He's more like an Andre the Giant OH WAIT.

Dunno, explain to me how Hart, Michaels and Taker were able to win these tournaments.

Because they were legitimate, rare talents who people thought could possibly be booked over Hulk Hogan in a professional wrestling tournament, which Brock Lesnar really shouldn't be. Hey, open up a route from Brock next year where he goes through Flair, Hart, and Savage, with Hogan losing to the Rock. That I could easily see. Hulk Hogan's entire career was winning this exact same type of match, big bad villain against hero placed in a dangerous situation.

But hey, bro. Can Hogan even cell?

 

[DarksideEric]

It's more, "Hulk Hogan would win because his whole career was based upon winning these exact same types of matches." Not because he was Hulk Hogan, who also lost to the Ultimate Warrior and Billy Kidman. He just didn't lose the matches against the big bad evil villain.

Yes... I know. That's exactly what the whole "because it's Hulk Hogan" factor is. In his prime he was in an era filled with generic big bad monster villains, and he was the Immortal hero so of course he was going to beat all the generic big bad monster villains. As I stated, that line of thinking is pretty much the same as people saying "Batman can beat anyone with enough prep time." Of course he "can," that's how he's been written, it's a way to get around the actual strengths of his opponents or to defy logic.

Right. He's more like an Andre the Giant OH WAIT.

Lesnar =/= Andre.

Because they were legitimate, rare talents who people thought could possibly be booked over Hulk Hogan in a professional wrestling tournament, which Brock Lesnar really shouldn't be. Hey, open up a route from Brock next year where he goes through Flair, Hart, and Savage, with Hogan losing to the Rock. That I could easily see. Hulk Hogan's entire career was winning this exact same type of match, big bad villain against hero placed in a dangerous situation.

Again, "Hulk Hogan factor" seems to be the new "Batman's prep time." During a Prime Hogan era, Hart nor Michaels would beat him during their Primes.

But hey, bro. Can Hogan even cell?

Of course he can Cell, but can he Cell as well as other people.

 

[nightmare]

Remove the cell & the result is the same. The guy is just too much for Hogan. Just because he is a beloved icon, does not give him extra powers. Heroes are reliable, but not always victorious. Brock has the power advantage & can outclass Hogan if it goes to the mat.


This just is not a good day for Hogan. He has & will beat many a man in this tournament- but today, he has met his match.

 

[El Rev sXe]

Fuck it, I'm going with Lesnar here. I understand that Hogan has beaten many monster heels before, but let's be clear, Lesnar is NOT a generic monster heel, like Brain said (finally someone said it), just take a look at his prime, NOT his matches against Cena, Punk or HHH, not even at his victory over the Undertaker's streak, look at his prime. Lesnar was built as someone who couldn't be stopped, that includes beating and dominating jobbers, mid carders, tag teams, and of course main events names such as Hogan himself (of course he wasn't at his prime but it's still a huge deal to defeat Hogan in any era), Angle and the Rock.

Hogan faced someone like Lesnar, Yokozuna, but even Yokozuna didn't have the treatment Lesnar had, he wasn't built as a real force that didn't need to cheat in order to win (unlike Yokozuna at Mania IX, I'm specifically talking about winning the WWE championship, Lesnar had a clean victory over Rock).

Onto the gimmick itself, yes Lesnar only had one HiaC match, yes he beat Taker who has a big record of losing HiaC matches, however there is one important factor, he DESTROYED Taker. Yes, at some moments Taker was dominant in the match, but not as nearly as Lesnar was.

Lesnar in his prime beat cleanly Rock for the WWE championship, he destroyed Taker inside the Cell. Lesnar is not a generic monster heel, he is THE mosnter heel that is actually capable of conquering Hulkamania.

 

[Rayne]

Lesnar =/= Andre.

Right. Andre was better. Lesnar's SPECIAL. He beat THE STREAK. (Please. Tell me this match is even close last year.)

And if Batman is put into a fight situation that he's won a thousand times before, and made an entire comic book series based upon him winning, then yes. That's why people pick Batman.

 

[DarksideEric]

Right. Andre was better. Lesnar's SPECIAL. He beat THE STREAK. (Please. Tell me this match is even close last year.)

And if Batman is put into a fight situation that he's won a thousand times before, and made an entire comic book series based upon him winning, then yes. That's why people pick Batman.

Batman's faced lots of big thugs and heavy hitters, such as Killer Croc, prior to facing Bane.

Then he lost to Bane.

 

[Rayne]

Batman's faced lots of big thugs and heavy hitters, such as Killer Croc, prior to facing Bane.

Then he lost to Bane.

Hulk Hogan isn't Batman, and Brock Lesnar isn't Bane. Neeexxxxt.

We're agreeing that Brock isn't on the level Andre was, that point was left unaddressed? Who knows, if for some reason this perfect storm of idiocy prevails and somehow people vote the big bad villain over the guy who made an entire career out of beating the biggest, baddest villain, we might get a chance to address that. No Meng, so there's either some great conspiracy to keep one of the top contenders out each year, or this isn't a crazy fantasy fist fight.

Of course, Andre can't climb cages, and Hogan can't cell, bro.

 

[DarksideEric]

Hulk Hogan isn't Batman, and Brock Lesnar isn't Bane. Neeexxxxt.

So... you skip ahead when the logic no longer suits you?

We're agreeing that Brock isn't on the level Andre was, that point was left unaddressed? Who knows, if for some reason this perfect storm of idiocy prevails and somehow people vote the big bad villain over the guy who made an entire career out of beating the biggest, baddest villain, we might get a chance to address that. No Meng, so there's either some great conspiracy to keep one of the top contenders out each year, or this isn't a crazy fantasy fist fight.

No, Brock's not the level of Andre. But neither was the Undertaker and Undertaker beat Hogan. And Undertaker was a "big bad villain."

Of course, Andre can't climb cages, and Hogan can't cell, bro.

Who said Andre can't climb a cage? Who's said Hogan can't Cell?

 

[Poop Master Flex]

Considering Hogan's first title reign is about the length of Lesnar's WWE career, considering Hogan beat monsters all the time, considering Hogan makes Lesnar his bitch in the money making department, considering Hogan makes Lesnar his bitch in the overall importance to wrestling department, considering Hogan rarely got pinned in his prime (something Lesnar would have to do to beat Hogan, its even less likely Hogan taps), considering Hogan made a career toppling unstoppable monsters against overwhelming odds, considering all of that I gotta go with Hogan here.

Hogan's unfamiliarity with HIAC is a ridiculous argument, Hogan had tons of cage matches even ones like Wargames and Tower of Doom (which him and Savage beat 7 guys) so to say Hogan is out of his element is just wrong. Lesnar is a very dominant guy who's beaten some very big names, but Hogan has beaten a lot of guys who fit that category and truth be told Lesnar has never faced a guy like Hogan in his prime. Lesnar has a lot of merits to his name that would help him in a match against Hogan but I don't think he's the kind of guy that would beat Hogan here, especially in the Garden.

Hogan is arguably the biggest name in the history of pro wrestling, when he held the title it was over 4 years (roughly the same length as Lesnar's WWE career), made it routine to beat big monster's in big matches and although Lesnar isn't your regular monster but there is only few that are good enough to topple Hogan at his peak, Lesnar just isn't one of those guys.

Vote Hogan.

 

[Rayne]

So... you skip ahead when the logic no longer suits you?

When the argument starts emanating into the penumbra, like, "this guy lost to another guy in a comic book to another guy, so clearly a case with two separate people would be the same.

No, Brock's not the level of Andre. But neither was the Undertaker and Undertaker beat Hogan. And Undertaker was a "big bad villain."

OK, prime Undertaker is worse than prime Lesnar than? This argument doesn't exactly support Brock, you're emphasizing how historically average Brock is compared to the true actual greats.

Who said Andre can't climb a cage? Who's said Hogan can't Cell?

Several idiots in a tournament past, and anyone who's clinging to the ridiculous argument that a cell significantly changes this match. Thankfully, it's people like you who keep people buying PPV's because there's no way the hero wins THIS time, the bad guy has him in a _______ match!!!!

 

[Bythedockofthebay]

The most obvious argument in Hogan's favor is that Lesnar faced a guy that is basically Hulk Hogan in the current generation. His name is John Cena, and the guy that never backed down and never gave in (much the same as Hogan) Took a hell of a beating but ended up winning the match over Lesnar. This doesn't work well for Hogan in the next round though considering he will be a beaten broken mess no matter how this match goes. And i can see Triple H taking him out due to the damage.

Winner- Hogan, brock throws the steel steps into the ring only to be clobbered with brass knuckles by Hogan, slammed on the steps and finished with a leg drop on top of said steps

 

[DarksideEric]

When the argument starts emanating into the penumbra, like, "this guy lost to another guy in a comic book to another guy, so clearly a case with two separate people would be the same.

Yet the argument was how the logic of Hogan is fairly good at shadowing the logic of Batman always winning due to prep time. You then stated that Batman has been written to beat thousands of people the same way, throughout his tenor as Batman, just has Hogan has been booked the same way throughout his prime. Being as they share such similarities that can be used as an analogy, it can be argued that Hogan (like Batman) can have that one villain that gets the best of him when he faces him for the first time.

OK, prime Undertaker is worse than prime Lesnar than? This argument doesn't exactly support Brock, you're emphasizing how historically average Brock is compared to the true actual greats.

How does that not help Brock? If Prime Lesnar > Prime Undertaker, yet Prime Undertaker defeated Prime Hogan, how does that not suggest that Lesnar would have a chance to beat Hogan?

Several idiots in a tournament past, and anyone who's clinging to the ridiculous argument that a cell significantly changes this match. Thankfully, it's people like you who keep people buying PPV's because there's no way the hero wins THIS time, the bad guy has him in a _______ match!!!!

There's quite a lot of instances where the villain has won in a special match against the hero, either on their own or by themselves.

Undertaker has lost Casket matches, Buried Alive matches and Hell in a Cell matches, despite usually being the hero in all of them. And two of those three matches are arguably catered completely around the Undertaker since they're part of his gimmick.

Mankind lost to Rock in an I Quit match. As did Hart to Backlund. Edge defeated Foley in an Hardcore match.

There's several instances where the hero loses to the villain partially due to the match type.

The Cell does change the match. Hell in a Cell is not a normal match, nor is it a cage match. There's additional advantages offered to it and different levels of potency to different competitors.

 

[DarksideEric]

The most obvious argument in Hogan's favor is that Lesnar faced a guy that is basically Hulk Hogan in the current generation. His name is John Cena, and the guy that never backed down and never gave in (much the same as Hogan) Took a hell of a beating but ended up winning the match over Lesnar. This doesn't work well for Hogan in the next round though considering he will be a beaten broken mess no matter how this match goes. And i can see Triple H taking him out due to the damage.

Then you can easily argue that Lesnar has in his favor that Undertaker, who fits somewhat into the same mold of Lesnar as being an unstoppable monster, defeated Hulk Hogan after Tombstoning him onto a chair.

Hogan has lost to a man like Lesnar in the Undertaker.

Lesnar has lost to a man like Hogan in Cena.