Would jumping to the WWE benefit or hurt Kurt Angle?
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Kurt Angle is one of the most decorated superstars in all of wrestling history, be it pro or amateur. WWE has been the biggest name in pro wrestling for more than a decade now and it was here that Kurt Angle first rose to prominence in the world of pro wrestling. He won every title in the company including the WWE Championship 4 times, the World Heavyweight title once and the WCW Championship once as well. He also had great feuds with numerous fellow greats like Steve Austin, Chris Benoit, Rock, Undertaker, Brock Lesnar, Eddie Guerrero and John Cena.
In August 2006, WWE announced that it was parting way with Kurt and that news stunned every wrestling fan. Kurt was still working at a very high level within the company and was doing a great job and there seemed no reason to release him. Kurt stated back then that he was the one who had indeed asked for his release because he had been working hurt mostly and even severely on certain occasions, like his PPV match with John Cena, wherein he claims he thought he was on the verge of a heart attack. Kurt wanted time to heal and for rehab. Vince was not willing to grant Kurt that and so he quit.
As Kurt says here, he was just not having fun anymore. His family life was in shambles, his relationship with Vince had turned sour and he was in pain. In a nutshell, he was unhappy.
Soon after, on September 24, 2006, Dixie Carter announced that Kurt Angle had signed with TNA. It has been almost 6 years since that day and all this while fans have speculated whether Kurt was right in leaving WWE or not. Some believe he would benefit from going back to WWE but there are others, like me, who believe that going to WWE will only cause him pain and sorrow and benefit him in no way.
The reasons are as follows:
1. Kurt Angle was unhappy when he left WWE and he has carried some resentment towards them ever since which will affect his run in the company.
It is apparent that Kurt Angle was unhappy when he left the WWE. Let me show you this video which only supports this point.
[YOUTUBE]mFq6KDaAt7w[/YOUTUBE]
He gave this interview a while back but his position on the WWE has not changed ever since. In a recent interview to the NY Post, Kurt mentioned that WWE had no respect for him. The reason for him thinking so was admittedly silly, but the fact remains that he does not like the WWE. Here is the news link containing the important excerpts.
It's not just a one off occasion. Kurt has continued taking shots at WWE at every conceivable opportunity as if he has some axe to grind against them. Here is Kurt ranting on WWE for giving him a low rank on their greatest wrestlers list, which mind you included Hulk Hogan in the mid 20's. Can't see him complaining.
There are many more examples that I can give but I think that my point is apparent by now. Vince has no reason to like Kurt. HHH has no reason to like Kurt. Randy Orton has no reason to like Kurt. Jack Swagger has no reason to like Kurt. No one from the authority figures to top stars in the WWE to a midcard like Swagger has any reason to like Kurt.
I ask you judges, how can a guy work in an environment in which he does not feel wanted? Kurt will be very unhappy in WWE and when a guy is unhappy he is not able to work well. It may affect his matches and he may even get into backstage fights which will only degrade his reputation. All this may even lead to him being fired again by the WWE.
2. Kurt Angle's legal troubles may prevent WWE from pushing him firmly
The Kurt Angle of today is not the same guy that left WWE in 2006. He has been arrested for driving under influence thrice and has also been charged with harrasement and the possession off illegal drugs like Hygetropin, a growth hormone that cannot be used without prescription. Kurt signing with the WWE may lead to WWE getting some unwanted attention especially in these days where they are promoting a family friendly image. We know that WWE was always wary about pushing MVP because of his criminal record and while Kurt's misdemeanours are nowhere in the same league, the possibility remains that WWE might hold these charges against him if he chooses to sign with them. This will only lead to a very shoddy and half assed run for Kurt and he won't benefit from that.
A related point to this is suspicion. Kurt has been arrested for drunk driving and on occasions has admitted to using twitter while he was drunk. That leads to the formation of the image that Kurt may be a drunkard. He may not be, but that is what a lot of people think. People inside the WWE may think the same and summon him for tests repeatedly. This all leads to the creation of an unhealthy working environment for Kurt which may lead to him losing his cool and not being able to give his best performances.
3. WWE has a number of "legends" in their roster these days and Kurt will not be treated like them.
The Rock just wrestled at WrestleMania 28 and at Survivor Series and also spoke about wrestling at WrestleMania 29. Brock Lesnar just returned to the WWE today. Triple H and Undertaker may be available to wrestle at certain big PPV's.
Kurt is a legend in his own right. Hell, if you ask him, he will tell you that he considers himself to be even better than them as he mentioned in his recent tweets. But the fact is that the WWE does not feel that way. It is pretty apparent that if Kurt goes there he will not be treated like Rock, HHH, Taker or even Brock. Some or all of these guys are bound to be available at the big PPV's wrestling the biggest stars currently in WWE. So what will Kurt go into the WWE for anyway? To wrestle Daniel Bryan in the main event of Smackdown or on the undercard of some PPV? Or maybe wrestle the likes of Dolph Ziggler and Swagger? We know that Kurt will not be welcomed with open arms into the WWE and now we also know that he has little incentive to come back either. The matches that he will have if he signs now cannot affect his legacy in a positive way at all. Yes, internet fans may love them but wrestling an upper midcarder or a midcarder isn't a big deal at all.
Also an important point here is that this is Kurt Angle we are talking about. A guy who resents the people in the company and who thinks he is the best wrestler in the world as is apparent from his tweets. He is no company man like Jericho or Booker T who will accept being used by the WWE as a midcarder or upper midcarder. He will only accept wrestling in the WWE as a main eventer, at the biggest PPV's against the biggest stars. And what do you think will happen if he resents his position within the company? Backstage fights, problems with the creative team and even no shows are on the card.
Another important point here is the schedule that Kurt will be given to work. WWE already has a bunch of people working on a part time basis and Kurt is unlikely to be allowed to work that schedule. That will also not allow him to train for his shot at the wrestling team for the London Olympics. Kurt works in TNA on a Shawn Michaels like schedule which allows him to work on his own terms and even work on his outside interests like the Olympics. Can you see Vince allowing Kurt to do that especially when he knows that Kurt has little chance of making it into the Olympic team? And more importantly, what effect will it have on Kurt who is bound to get annoyed by this? How will Kurt take out his frustrations? All this may have an adverse effect on his performance and also his legacy. It may also have an adverse effect on Kurt's health as he is not in the best shape at the moment. It has just been reported here that he has torn his hamstring here.
Kurt will not be able to juggle the load of performing for WWE full time and his Olympic training and that will affect his health and most likely his state of mind as well. It will be the August of 2006 all over again.
To sum up, Kurt had a successful career in the WWE at one point and one that he can be proud of. The actions that he has done since has affected his standing with the superstars and the authority figures in the company. They do not like him and may be unwilling to work with him. It is obvious that he does not like working in the WWE and an unhappy worker can never be a good woker. WWE also has a very stacked roster at this point and a good collection of legends of previous eras as well which would undoubtedly had been Kurt's USP had he chosen to come back. That has been taken out of the equation. Kurt now has little to look forward to in the WWE, a place which he despises and the people there probably do not think of him very highly either due to the actions that he has committed.
As a noted TNA fan, you know this one will be hard for me. But I don't back down and after thinking about it, I can whip up a good argument as to why Kurt Angle can indeed benefit from returning to the WWE. I was at odds for this one me being a TNA fan and a fan of his, but then the answer decided to walk out last night on Monday Night Raw and deliver an F-5 to John Cena. Yup, Brock Lesnar helped me out here, but first lets get formal. Good luck to Rattlesnake who I remember telling once he should spell right. Hope I don't regret that.
Kurt Angle Has Had Problems That Surfaced Due To Joining TNA
For those unaware, Kurt Angle may love his job at TNA but it hasn't come with it's downside. Hell, one could say it's a bigger downside than the one WWE presented.
1) When Kurt Angle was released from the WWE, he had reported drug problems. This seems to have been evidenced in interviews prior to joining TNA. Not only that, but Kurt's neck issues solicit constant painkillers. Something very easy to abuse.
If Kurt Were In WWE: He would have to be administered to the WWE's Wellness Policy. Which also aids with re-hab, medical aids and such. Something Kurt wasn't able to go through since he left before the Policy became as big a factor as it is today.
2) Alcohol abuse. He's gotten arrested 3 times since 2009. Once it was because he was stalking his then girlfriend and was caught intoxicated and with a car full of pain killers. He was TNA World Champion when that happened but storylines marched on as dictated with Kurt not even getting a slap on the wrist. Is it really a good thing to let your World Champion do that with no disciplinary action taken?
If Kurt Were In WWE: The wellness policy would have taken hold, making him lose his title, be out of TV for a set amount of time and if needed, rehab.
3) Rampages over Twitter. The man has gone on many a rants via Twitter, had them taken down and then denies them with claims of his account being hacked. TNA does not seem to bat an eyelash on the matter. Allowing him to spoil Impact tapings, take shots at people and such.
If Kurt Were In WWE: His account would be watched since WWE tries to maintain a sense of kayfabe when wrestlers utilize an account. At this point, he'd either learn to keep his hands off the keyboard, have someone write for him or just have the account taken down because he can turn it into a lethal weapon. TNA on the other hand, can't seem to care less.
4) The Karen Jarrett soap opera. It might have been the feud of 2011, but nothing stick out more about Kurt's run in TNA then how his love life shattered right from under his feet. When Kurt came to TNA, he was given many privileges and among that was the chance to bring his then wife to work as an on-screen character. Parallel to that, TNA founder Jeff Jarrett lost his wife to cancer. However, Kurt's gimmick of being a wrestling machine isn't exactly some overblown work of fiction. Kurt sinks himself in his work. And bringing the unwatched Karen to work allowed her to look the other way and spot someone who seemed to care more. What came of it was infidelity, a divorce, a man who just lost his wife gambling his company for someone else's and of course the stresses of betrayal getting to Kurt. Like I said, there was a point where he was arrested because he was stalking his then girlfriend. TNA tried to make it alright by dismissing Jarrett, but that did nothing but keep a target away from Kurt until things just became more quiet.
If Kurt Were In WWE: His divorce may have not happened or would've been far more stable. But more to the point, a return would get his mind off the place that ruined his love life. He may be able to see his kids at any time in TNA, but just how good a relationship can he have if he's a loose cannon? WWE has shown it can supervise wrestlers as sort and keep them from this kind of behavior.
Now that I addressed the cons of what being in TNA did, I'll go with the pro's.
Times Have Changed In The WWE And Kurt Can Get A Major Upside From It
1) It's Tiresome, It's Damn Tiresome! (Not Really) The man who can do anything with a broken freakin' neck never shy's away from the fact that TNA gives him off-time whenever he feels like taking it. He never shy's away from the fact that WWE has a tight schedule. But there's the old saying that "Time away makes the heart grow fonder". Well, something to that extent. Anyway's, Kurt may have his opinion but it doesn't mean he'll be treated the same way today as he was back in 2006. The examples are right above this paragraph. As icons of the past have managed to gain leaner schedules, big angles, big pays and the last say. Last night Brock Lesnar returned to the WWE with a contract that grants WWE a minimum of 35-ish appearances over the course of the year. Furthermore, he can negotiate more appearances and get royalties for them. How does this apply to Kurt? Well for one, he get's that relaxing schedule he loves from TNA, but he also gets more money and more exposure out of it.
2) Room For Expansion. In an interview my opponent posted, Kurt mentions WWE only wanted their signed talent to appear in WWE Studio movies and only work for WWE. That was back then. Today? Not so much. Chris Jericho has enjoyed the privilege of being able to tour with Fozzy, host TV shows and other endeavors not associated with the WWE. So has Mick Foley. Most notably, The Rock signed a WWE contract that does not interfere with his Hollywood work. You think Kurt Angle can't get that kind of contract? Of course he can. Especially if WWE keeps asking for him to join.
3) His Job Isn't One Of A Kind. One of Kurt's desires since joining TNA is to see it grow. He talks about how he helps the talent and how he helps expand the brand. This also tends to be a reason why he won't return to the WWE. If Bruce Wayne had a suitable replacement for Batman in Dick Grayson, Kurt Angle's shoes shouldn't be so hard to fill. And with guys like Sting, Rob Van Dam and Jeff Hardy it shouldn't be that hard. Especially when the likes of James Storm, Robert Roode and Austin Aries seem to be taking TNA by storm.
4) He's Not The First. Christian, Kevin Nash, Mick Foley and Booker T all left WWE for TNA on shaky terms. You don't hear much negativity on their returns do you? If WWE is willing to extend their hand and do whatever it takes to get you to sign that dotted line, evidence shows you can get many a benefits.
Kurt's problems with WWE seem petty. He rants about people using his moves. It seems imitation doesn't flatter him. Weird given that Ken Shamrock doesn't mind. He had problems with Vince, but Vince isn't the one overseeing everything these days and his job has gone over mostly to Triple H. With the talent being held in such a low regard, it would seem Kurt could actually do more good in WWE than he can in TNA. Their roster has already matured. WWE however, needs to rely on these older stars to pick up the major numbers they are known for. Their talent has shown that they can't do it on their own. Jack Swagger does indeed have a reason to like Kurt seeing as how he's a cheap copy. Why not learn from the original? If Kurt Angle were to join this list of comebacks, he'd be the most active of them and therefor the most helpful for the locker room. Essentially, it would be like when he started in TNA, a new beginning. Except with some familiar faces.
As a noted TNA fan, you know this one will be hard for me. But I don't back down and after thinking about it, I can whip up a good argument as to why Kurt Angle can indeed benefit from returning to the WWE. I was at odds for this one me being a TNA fan and a fan of his, but then the answer decided to walk out last night on Monday Night Raw and deliver an F-5 to John Cena. Yup, Brock Lesnar helped me out here, but first lets get formal. Good luck to Rattlesnake who I remember telling once he should spell right. Hope I don't regret that.
You know I'll always thank you for being one of the first ones who stood up for me. Maybe this time I can return the favor by teaching you a few things about debating.
Kurt Angle Has Had Problems That Surfaced Due To Joining TNA
For those unaware, Kurt Angle may love his job at TNA but it hasn't come with it's downside. Hell, one could say it's a bigger downside than the one WWE presented.
1) When Kurt Angle was released from the WWE, he had reported drug problems. This seems to have been evidenced in interviews prior to joining TNA. Not only that, but Kurt's neck issues solicit constant painkillers. Something very easy to abuse.
If Kurt Were In WWE: He would have to be administered to the WWE's Wellness Policy. Which also aids with re-hab, medical aids and such. Something Kurt wasn't able to go through since he left before the Policy became as big a factor as it is today.
You said that you were going to mention problems that surfaced in Kurt's life due to him joining TNA but actually this is a problem that had surfaced in the WWE as I just mentioned in the first interview I posted. Here, I'll mention it again with the relevant excerpts.
"I was never given enough time to heal," said Angle, who's had five neck injuries. "I worked 260-300 days a year with my former employer. I felt like I was being buried into the ground. When I asked for time off, they gave it to me, but when I was off, they'd say they needed me."
"I haven't taken painkillers in (18 months)," he said. "I had to do it after the neck surgery and a lack of time off. I met with Jim Ross and John Laurinaitis, then Vince ... and I told them, 'I'm afraid I'm going to die.'
"I had to take (the painkillers) to function. I couldn't get out of bed until I took a large dose, a handful.
What is apparent is that working for the WWE is a double-edged sword. Yes, they have the wellness policy but they also have a schedule that is extremely tiring. That is bound to put pressure on that extremely fragile neck of his which might induce him to take painkillers. He has a greater chance of doing painkillers in WWE than in TNA. And what if he is caught and action is taken against him by the wellness policy? Surely that will only bring shame to his legacy and hurt Kurt.
Also, it is also interesting to note that Kurt has always denied taking performance enhancing drugs. He has said that he was prescribed certain drugs due to his neck injury and so far, he has not been caught. He seems to be doing a good job in the ring as well in TNA so I would have to think that he is managing just fine. There is a huge possibility that those rumors of Angle doing steroids are untrue.
But the WWE does not do things like TNA does. TNA has basically given Kurt a free reign. In the WWE, every single thing that he does will be put under close scrutiny which is bound to cause unhappiness in Kurt's life. Suspicion can really ruin someone's life and WWE is like a nagging wife in this department. WWE is really scared about these things and may summon up Kurt for drug testing after some dumb rumor from some random news website. We do know by now that Kurt is a guy who likes to do things his way but the WWE is bound not to let him do that. That will only make him unhappy, especially if they are untrue, and affect his performance.
Another thing that amuses me is you saying that Kurt should go to WWE to get into rehab. Yeah, that is what Kurt should do, right? Give up a pretty good wrestling career, wherein he is apparently managing his demons just fine to give a good performance, in order to lie around in bed. How is that any good for his legacy as a wrestler?
2) Alcohol abuse. He's gotten arrested 3 times since 2009. Once it was because he was stalking his then girlfriend and was caught intoxicated and with a car full of pain killers. He was TNA World Champion when that happened but storylines marched on as dictated with Kurt not even getting a slap on the wrist. Is it really a good thing to let your World Champion do that with no disciplinary action taken?
If Kurt Were In WWE: The wellness policy would have taken hold, making him lose his title, be out of TV for a set amount of time and if needed, rehab.[/B]
The question isn't what would have happened had Kurt been in the WWE, the question is what would happen to him now if Kurt went to WWE now. It has already been established that Kurt likes the booze. If he went to WWE today, he would be hounded over his past transgressions. He would be summoned up for impromptu tests as even WWE would be wary of his ways which would have annoyed him.
And again, despite all this, Kurt has managed to do just fine. I would argue that WWE would have made a big issue about it and maybe even stripped Kurt of the title because of his behavior. That would have annoyed Kurt immensely. But in TNA he was allowed to deal with it on his own which was the way he wanted to do things and the story inside the ring went on without a hitch. Again I would say that the reason Kurt performed so well in that period despite these transgressions was because he was allowed to do things on his own rather than have the company interfere.
3) [/B]Rampages over Twitter. The man has gone on many a rants via Twitter, had them taken down and then denies them with claims of his account being hacked. TNA does not seem to bat an eyelash on the matter. Allowing him to spoil Impact tapings, take shots at people and such.
If Kurt Were In WWE: His account would be watched since WWE tries to maintain a sense of kayfabe when wrestlers utilize an account. At this point, he'd either learn to keep his hands off the keyboard, have someone write for him or just have the account taken down because he can turn it into a lethal weapon. TNA on the other hand, can't seem to care less.
His account would have been watched and someone else may have been asked to write for him, that part is true. But think for a second how Kurt would react to this? He would be annoyed if this freedom of expressing himself is taken away from him. A person angry with how things are done in the company can never be an asset for the company, only trouble and Kurt would have just been that, and he will be trouble if he works for the company. In such a situation, no one stands to benefit, neither him and nor the WWE.
4) The Karen Jarrett soap opera. It might have been the feud of 2011, but nothing stick out more about Kurt's run in TNA then how his love life shattered right from under his feet. When Kurt came to TNA, he was given many privileges and among that was the chance to bring his then wife to work as an on-screen character. Parallel to that, TNA founder Jeff Jarrett lost his wife to cancer. However, Kurt's gimmick of being a wrestling machine isn't exactly some overblown work of fiction. Kurt sinks himself in his work. And bringing the unwatched Karen to work allowed her to look the other way and spot someone who seemed to care more. What came of it was infidelity, a divorce, a man who just lost his wife gambling his company for someone else's and of course the stresses of betrayal getting to Kurt. Like I said, there was a point where he was arrested because he was stalking his then girlfriend. TNA tried to make it alright by dismissing Jarrett, but that did nothing but keep a target away from Kurt until things just became more quiet.
If Kurt Were In WWE: His divorce may have not happened or would've been far more stable. But more to the point, a return would get his mind off the place that ruined his love life. He may be able to see his kids at any time in TNA, but just how good a relationship can he have if he's a loose cannon? WWE has shown it can supervise wrestlers as sort and keep them from this kind of behavior.
Again, just read the interview I have mentioned. Kurt says that the problems with Karen began in the WWE and that it was his schedule in the WWE that almost killed his marriage and that too before 2006. Here are the relevant excerpts again.
"My wife and I were separated at one point. I almost lost my marriage and my family life and I don't think my boss really cared. In my life, God is first, my family's second and my job is third."
So, like I told you, it was not a problem that surfaced after he joined TNA, it was there when he was in the WWE. If anything, TNA made that marriage last for a few more years before the imminent seperation. It is also funny that you say that one of the reasons for the divorce was Kurt sinking himself into work. That would have happened in the WWE too, at a much larger scale because of WWE's schedule. In fact, as Kurt has pointed out in his interview, that is what actually. So, it is silly to assume that his divorce would not have happened.
As for going to TNA to see his kids, that may happen if not for the incessant travel and the schedule that WWE wrestlers are subjected too. Not being able to see his kids for a long period of time will also annoy Kurt and cause him unhappiness which can only hurt him both as a wrestler and as a human being.
Now that I addressed the cons of what being in TNA did, I'll go with the pro's.
Times Have Changed In The WWE And Kurt Can Get A Major Upside From It
1) It's Tiresome, It's Damn Tiresome! (Not Really) The man who can do anything with a broken freakin' neck never shy's away from the fact that TNA gives him off-time whenever he feels like taking it. He never shy's away from the fact that WWE has a tight schedule. But there's the old saying that "Time away makes the heart grow fonder". Well, something to that extent. Anyway's, Kurt may have his opinion but it doesn't mean he'll be treated the same way today as he was back in 2006. The examples are right above this paragraph. As icons of the past have managed to gain leaner schedules, big angles, big pays and the last say. Last night Brock Lesnar returned to the WWE with a contract that grants WWE a minimum of 35-ish appearances over the course of the year. Furthermore, he can negotiate more appearances and get royalties for them. How does this apply to Kurt? Well for one, he get's that relaxing schedule he loves from TNA, but he also gets more money and more exposure out of it.
Vince only allows a wrestler to sign on a limited schedule if he thinks that the wrestler can offer something really unique and special. Now, WWE already has a number of legends on its roster who are working part time and Kurt is really no different from them. If anything these guys like Undertaker and Rock are liked way more than Kurt because they haven't ever spoken ill about Vince. Kurt does not bring that to the table and with the availability of so many legends on the roster, the novelty of him being a legend is lost too.
Moreover, WWE has already signed these legends like Rock and Brock with specific storylines in mind and even if Kurt certainly makes himself available for the WWE, they may not be willing to sign him under a contract which reduces his workload because they already have a ton of big things planned without Kurt being a part of the picture.
The fact that so many legends are already on the roster is not a point in Kurt's favor but actually against him. Like I said, these legends have been signed with some agenda in mind. Brock Lesnar will probably go after Cena, Rock will go for the WWE title, Triple H and Undertaker will wrestle some of the stars near the top of the card. Moreover some or maybe even all of these wrestlers will be available to wrestle at the big PPV's. Where does that leave Kurt on the card? This is Kurt Angle a guy who has constantly claimed that he not Jericho, HBK or Ric Flair is the best in the world. Do you think he will be happy to wrestle Daniel Bryan on the undercard of some PPV? This is bound to lead to some friction between Kurt and the top brass of the WWE which will only end up hurting him.
As for absence making the heart grow fonder goes, Kurt lashed out at WWE just a few days ago, in January this year to be precise, in an interview to the NY post. Here is the news link, once again.
So, yeah, it does not look like absence is making his heart grow fonder but rather realize with every passing day how lucky he was to have made the decision of leaving WWE.
As far as money and exposure go, let us not forget that Kurt was employed to the WWE at one point. WWE did not fire him, he let go. Clearly, money and exposure aren't his top priorities, happiness is and that is something that only being in TNA ensures for him.
2) Room For Expansion. In an interview my opponent posted, Kurt mentions WWE only wanted their signed talent to appear in WWE Studio movies and only work for WWE. That was back then. Today? Not so much. Chris Jericho has enjoyed the privilege of being able to tour with Fozzy, host TV shows and other endeavors not associated with the WWE. So has Mick Foley. Most notably, The Rock signed a WWE contract that does not interfere with his Hollywood work. You think Kurt Angle can't get that kind of contract? Of course he can. Especially if WWE keeps asking for him to join.
The important part here is that Jericho and Foley have done TV shows and tours at a time when they were not working any storyline within the WWE. That is not how Kurt works in TNA. Kurt juggles his outside commitments along with wrestling for TNA. He has never taken a long hiatus from TNA like Jericho and Foley have taken from WWE. When the likes of Jericho and Foley have worked a story in WWE, they have only worked for WWE and for no one else. That is not the way Kurt likes to operate and WWE would undoubtedly interfere with his ways which are likely to annoy him.
Also while we are talking about outside interests, tell me, will WWE allow Kurt to train for something like the Olympics. Angle just injured his hamstring while training for that. Will Vince allow Kurt to sustain injuries in his other projects? Especially when he knows that Kurt, in his own words, has slim to none chances of making it to the Olympic team. Not being allowed to follow his interests will undoubtedly hurt Kurt as a person and as a wrestler.
As for Rock's contract, Kurt Angle is no Rock. The Rock is Vince's golden boy, the prodigial son whom Vince made and who is always indebted to Vince. Kurt is the man who has openly said that he has a problem with the ways WWE does their stuff and has also attacked his company at every concievable opportunity. Kurt will undoubtedly not be treated like Rock.
3) His Job Isn't One Of A Kind. One of Kurt's desires since joining TNA is to see it grow. He talks about how he helps the talent and how he helps expand the brand. This also tends to be a reason why he won't return to the WWE. If Bruce Wayne had a suitable replacement for Batman in Dick Grayson, Kurt Angle's shoes shouldn't be so hard to fill. And with guys like Sting, Rob Van Dam and Jeff Hardy it shouldn't be that hard. Especially when the likes of James Storm, Robert Roode and Austin Aries seem to be taking TNA by storm.
His job is actually one of a kind. For him. TNA treats him like their own family and care about him. They give him the freedom that he so desires. Kurt is happy in TNA.
Also Kurt wrestles way more than Sting, and is a signiicantly bigger name than both Jeff Hardy and RVD. He wrestles much above the card than someone like RVD. And while the young stars of TNA like Storm, Roode and Aries are taking TNA by storm, Kurt's shoes are unfillable. He is the legendary performer who will give a rub to anyone who faces him. Beating Kurt Angle is still the biggest deal in TNA, a bigger deal than beating the likes of Jeff Hardy or RVD. No other superstar will be able to replicate that.
4) He's Not The First. Christian, Kevin Nash, Mick Foley and Booker T all left WWE for TNA on shaky terms. You don't hear much negativity on their returns do you? If WWE is willing to extend their hand and do whatever it takes to get you to sign that dotted line, evidence shows you can get many a benefits.
These superstars did leave on shaky grounds but they had not made anywhere near the number of attacks that Kurt has made via twitter and his interviews on the WWE and its superstars. Also apart from Christian, who was made to work a full schedule, none of the superstars have recieved a significant push either.
Kurt's problems with WWE seem petty. He rants about people using his moves. It seems imitation doesn't flatter him. Weird given that Ken Shamrock doesn't mind. He had problems with Vince, but Vince isn't the one overseeing everything these days and his job has gone over mostly to Triple H. With the talent being held in such a low regard, it would seem Kurt could actually do more good in WWE than he can in TNA. Their roster has already matured. WWE however, needs to rely on these older stars to pick up the major numbers they are known for. Their talent has shown that they can't do it on their own. Jack Swagger does indeed have a reason to like Kurt seeing as how he's a cheap copy. Why not learn from the original? If Kurt Angle were to join this list of comebacks, he'd be the most active of them and therefor the most helpful for the locker room. Essentially, it would be like when he started in TNA, a new beginning. Except with some familiar faces.
Kurt's problems seem petty to us but at the same time they may have a different meaning to him. What is important is the fact that he has problems, which means that he is not a huge fan of the WWE, its authority figures or its wrestlers.
Kurt has had problems with HHH as well as I have just pointed out in an interview in my OP. I'll post the link here again.
Swagger may have liked Angle or even idolized him prior to Angle's comments on him using the ankle lock. Swagger may want to learn from him but the question is, is Kurt ready to teach him?
TNA's roster may have matured but as far as having big names goes, Kurt is still the biggest name who wrestles at least semi actively. Compared to that WWE has a plethora of legends at its disposal and Kurt will be lost in the shuffle over there. Kurt may be able to help the superstars in the WWE but there are already guys like Rock, HHH, Undertaker and Brock on the roster who can also help them. Hence, Kurt isn't exactly a top requirement there.
What is apparent is that working for the WWE is a double-edged sword. Yes, they have the wellness policy but they also have a schedule that is extremely tiring. That is bound to put pressure on that extremely fragile neck of his which might induce him to take painkillers. He has a greater chance of doing painkillers in WWE than in TNA. And what if he is caught and action is taken against him by the wellness policy? Surely that will only bring shame to his legacy and hurt Kurt.
Also, it is also interesting to note that Kurt has always denied taking performance enhancing drugs. He has said that he was prescribed certain drugs due to his neck injury and so far, he has not been caught. He seems to be doing a good job in the ring as well in TNA so I would have to think that he is managing just fine. There is a huge possibility that those rumors of Angle doing steroids are untrue.
But the WWE does not do things like TNA does. TNA has basically given Kurt a free reign. In the WWE, every single thing that he does will be put under close scrutiny which is bound to cause unhappiness in Kurt's life. Suspicion can really ruin someone's life and WWE is like a nagging wife in this department. WWE is really scared about these things and may summon up Kurt for drug testing after some dumb rumor from some random news website. We do know by now that Kurt is a guy who likes to do things his way but the WWE is bound not to let him do that. That will only make him unhappy, especially if they are untrue, and affect his performance.
Another thing that amuses me is you saying that Kurt should go to WWE to get into rehab. Yeah, that is what Kurt should do, right? Give up a pretty good wrestling career, wherein he is apparently managing his demons just fine to give a good performance, in order to lie around in bed. How is that any good for his legacy as a wrestler?
The question isn't what would have happened had Kurt been in the WWE, the question is what would happen to him now if Kurt went to WWE now. It has already been established that Kurt likes the booze. If he went to WWE today, he would be hounded over his past transgressions. He would be summoned up for impromptu tests as even WWE would be wary of his ways which would have annoyed him.
You make it sound like Kurt Angle is some incurable raging alcoholic. He's hard on the stuff, but he's certainly no Scott Hall. You also make it sound like if he was the only person in WWE that would drink the stuff and WWE is some sort of church. Didn't Chris Jericho make a stealth joke about the time he got DUI'ed on Raw this week? Hell, there are far more wrestlers for WWE that get DUI's than in TNA. WWE is not some overlord that strips you of everything. They just keep an eye on you and intervene when you need help. Last I checked, WWE has been paying for Scott Hall's rehab. TNA simply let him go. Whether it's wrestling or kicking out a bad habit, sticking with WWE will give Kurt more benefits.
And again, despite all this, Kurt has managed to do just fine. I would argue that WWE would have made a big issue about it and maybe even stripped Kurt of the title because of his behavior. That would have annoyed Kurt immensely. But in TNA he was allowed to deal with it on his own which was the way he wanted to do things and the story inside the ring went on without a hitch. Again I would say that the reason Kurt performed so well in that period despite these transgressions was because he was allowed to do things on his own rather than have the company interfere.
Except the company was the one to cause the problem in the first place.
Again, just read the interview I have mentioned. Kurt says that the problems with Karen began in the WWE and that it was his schedule in the WWE that almost killed his marriage and that too before 2006. Here are the relevant excerpts again.
As for going to TNA to see his kids, that may happen if not for the incessant travel and the schedule that WWE wrestlers are subjected too. Not being able to see his kids for a long period of time will also annoy Kurt and cause him unhappiness which can only hurt him both as a wrestler and as a human being.
I think posting the interview once is enough. And joining TNA allowed Karen to jump to Jeff Jarrett. Does it matter where it began? Look at how it ended. Kurt still lingers from that today with his reckless, unsupervised attitude. Does everything in WWE have to annoy Kurt? You think if he joined WWE, he couldn't work out schedule that allowed him to spend time with his kids? Wait a minute, I don't wanna repeat myself. I already pointed out the light work schedule thing.
Vince only allows a wrestler to sign on a limited schedule if he thinks that the wrestler can offer something really unique and special. Now, WWE already has a number of legends on its roster who are working part time and Kurt is really no different from them. If anything these guys like Undertaker and Rock are liked way more than Kurt because they haven't ever spoken ill about Vince. Kurt does not bring that to the table and with the availability of so many legends on the roster, the novelty of him being a legend is lost too.
Moreover, WWE has already signed these legends like Rock and Brock with specific storylines in mind and even if Kurt certainly makes himself available for the WWE, they may not be willing to sign him under a contract which reduces his workload because they already have a ton of big things planned without Kurt being a part of the picture.
The fact that so many legends are already on the roster is not a point in Kurt's favor but actually against him. Like I said, these legends have been signed with some agenda in mind. Brock Lesnar will probably go after Cena, Rock will go for the WWE title, Triple H and Undertaker will wrestle some of the stars near the top of the card. Moreover some or maybe even all of these wrestlers will be available to wrestle at the big PPV's. Where does that leave Kurt on the card? This is Kurt Angle a guy who has constantly claimed that he not Jericho, HBK or Ric Flair is the best in the world. Do you think he will be happy to wrestle Daniel Bryan on the undercard of some PPV? This is bound to lead to some friction between Kurt and the top brass of the WWE which will only end up hurting him.
As for absence making the heart grow fonder goes, Kurt lashed out at WWE just a few days ago, in January this year to be precise, in an interview to the NY post. Here is the news link, once again.
So basically, you're saying that despite WWE's constant lobbying for him to return, he wouldn't get much? You know, Wrestlemania isn't the only PPV on the calendar. Not every major thing needs to gyrate around it. But the really funny part is your belief that the former 4-time WWE Champion, former 2-time World Champion would end up facing... Daniel Bryan? On a PPV undercard? Fucking what? Facing the former World Champion, the most over guy in the company as of this week is a bad thing?
So, yeah, it does not look like absence is making his heart grow fonder but rather realize with every passing day how lucky he was to have made the decision of leaving WWE.
As far as money and exposure go, let us not forget that Kurt was employed to the WWE at one point. WWE did not fire him, he let go. Clearly, money and exposure aren't his top priorities, happiness is and that is something that only being in TNA ensures for him.
I think I already said if WWE wants him, they'll do anything for him. It's WWE not the Russian military from the Soviet days.
The important part here is that Jericho and Foley have done TV shows and tours at a time when they were not working any storyline within the WWE. That is not how Kurt works in TNA. Kurt juggles his outside commitments along with wrestling for TNA. He has never taken a long hiatus from TNA like Jericho and Foley have taken from WWE. When the likes of Jericho and Foley have worked a story in WWE, they have only worked for WWE and for no one else. That is not the way Kurt likes to operate and WWE would undoubtedly interfere with his ways which are likely to annoy him.
Also while we are talking about outside interests, tell me, will WWE allow Kurt to train for something like the Olympics. Angle just injured his hamstring while training for that. Will Vince allow Kurt to sustain injuries in his other projects? Especially when he knows that Kurt, in his own words, has slim to none chances of making it to the Olympic team. Not being allowed to follow his interests will undoubtedly hurt Kurt as a person and as a wrestler.
As for Rock's contract, Kurt Angle is no Rock. The Rock is Vince's golden boy, the prodigial son whom Vince made and who is always indebted to Vince. Kurt is the man who has openly said that he has a problem with the ways WWE does their stuff and has also attacked his company at every concievable opportunity. Kurt will undoubtedly not be treated like Rock.
A) The pretense that he'll be under a regular WWE contract.
B) Being in the Olympics again would apparently be a bad thing for WWE. Hell, that would make Vince have a boner to have one of his guys in the Olympics. *cough* Mark Henry *cough* *Arnold Strongman Classic *cough*
His job is actually one of a kind. For him. TNA treats him like their own family and care about him. They give him the freedom that he so desires. Kurt is happy in TNA.
He's also a reckless mess with no supervision. Like a teen with no parents. Great to be, huh?
Also Kurt wrestles way more than Sting, and is a signiicantly bigger name than both Jeff Hardy and RVD. He wrestles much above the card than someone like RVD. And while the young stars of TNA like Storm, Roode and Aries are taking TNA by storm, Kurt's shoes are unfillable. He is the legendary performer who will give a rub to anyone who faces him. Beating Kurt Angle is still the biggest deal in TNA, a bigger deal than beating the likes of Jeff Hardy or RVD. No other superstar will be able to replicate that.
These superstars did leave on shaky grounds but they had not made anywhere near the number of attacks that Kurt has made via twitter and his interviews on the WWE and its superstars. Also apart from Christian, who was made to work a full schedule, none of the superstars have recieved a significant push either.
Right. Because Kurt Angle would clearly sink in WWE despite being such a damn legend that anyone that could beat him in TNA would be made.
Kurt's problems seem petty to us but at the same time they may have a different meaning to him. What is important is the fact that he has problems, which means that he is not a huge fan of the WWE, its authority figures or its wrestlers.
Kurt has had problems with HHH as well as I have just pointed out in an interview in my OP. I'll post the link here again.
Swagger may have liked Angle or even idolized him prior to Angle's comments on him using the ankle lock. Swagger may want to learn from him but the question is, is Kurt ready to teach him?
TNA's roster may have matured but as far as having big names goes, Kurt is still the biggest name who wrestles at least semi actively. Compared to that WWE has a plethora of legends at its disposal and Kurt will be lost in the shuffle over there. Kurt may be able to help the superstars in the WWE but there are already guys like Rock, HHH, Undertaker and Brock on the roster who can also help them. Hence, Kurt isn't exactly a top requirement there.
Am I debating you or Kurt himself? I know what he said. Just because he says it, doesn't mean he's right about it. If there were enough big names in WWE, why do they keep signing more? Kurt's just as big as Rocky, Undertaker and if it weren't for Kurt Angle, Brock Lesnar wouldn't be as big a deal as is today seeing Kurt was his most recurrent opponent. You're kidding yourself if you think WWE would just sign Kurt and leave him on the side.
You make it sound like Kurt Angle is some incurable raging alcoholic. He's hard on the stuff, but he's certainly no Scott Hall. You also make it sound like if he was the only person in WWE that would drink the stuff and WWE is some sort of church. Didn't Chris Jericho make a stealth joke about the time he got DUI'ed on Raw this week? Hell, there are far more wrestlers for WWE that get DUI's than in TNA. WWE is not some overlord that strips you of everything. They just keep an eye on you and intervene when you need help. Last I checked, WWE has been paying for Scott Hall's rehab. TNA simply let him go. Whether it's wrestling or kicking out a bad habit, sticking with WWE will give Kurt more benefits.
He is no Scott Hall but Kurt has his problems. WWE is extremely wary of such individuals and in the recent past they have even changed their rules to include more drugs as ones that are not be used by the performers under the wellness policy. You just said yourself that there are far more wrestlers that get DUI's in WWE than in TNA. But what is the difference here is the kind of the person that Kurt is? He won't joke around like Jericho. Clearly, if something as trivial as some other guy using his move( fairly commonplace in wrestling) or WWE giving him a low rank on some greatest superstars of all time list( which ranked Hogan in the mid twenties, by the way. Few people bought it as legit) annoys him, then DUI testing is a pretty big thing.
Kurt is a difficult person to deal with, undoubtedly. But TNA deals with him by giving him his freedom and gets the best out of him in return. WWE would try and butt heads with him which will cause Kurt unhappiness. Hell, you talk about him being put into rehab, he may decide to walk out the day they tell him that he needs to go to rehab. That is just the guy Kurt is. Tell me, how will that help Kurt?
Except the company was the one to cause the problem in the first place.
How did the company make Kurt a drunk driver? You could, at best, say that they did not test him which allowed him to get away drunk but then, they also allowed him to handle the matter on his own. He ultimately solved it and it did not cast an effect on the major MEM story that TNA were doing at that point.
If he would have been in the WWE, Kurt would have been suspended there and then and some shoddy replacement would have been brought up for him and WWE would have ruined a potentially good story. And yes, only God knows how angrily Kurt would have reacted to that.
I think posting the interview once is enough. And joining TNA allowed Karen to jump to Jeff Jarrett. Does it matter where it began? Look at how it ended. Kurt still lingers from that today with his reckless, unsupervised attitude. Does everything in WWE have to annoy Kurt? You think if he joined WWE, he couldn't work out schedule that allowed him to spend time with his kids? Wait a minute, I don't wanna repeat myself. I already pointed out the light work schedule thing.
Well, I just posted a collection of interviews in my OP but this one is of particular interest as Kurt covers a ton of stuff in it.
Let us get some facts clear for a second. Karen divorced Kurt in 2008. She began seeing Jarrett when she was seperated with Kurt. The seperation was more of Kurt's fault than her's. It is not that Jarrett and Karen are some match made in heaven. If Kurt would have stayed in the WWE he would have ultimately divorced Karen sooner. Karen may have found someone like most people do. Do you think Kurt would not have been hurt by that? Kurt's attitude is a result of what Kurt is as a person. Yes, seeing Jarrett with his former wife everyday may have annoyed him but losing Karen to some other guy whom he may not get to see everyday would have affected him as well. Like he said, in the interview I posted( yes, that again) he places family higher than his job on the list of his priorities and losing his family may have affected him greatly which may have caused him to go unstable regardless of where he would have been.
And why do I think that everything in WWE has to annoy him? Because that has been the case so far. Stealing his moves annoys him, giving him a low rank in some obscure list annoys him. Compared to that not being able to see his kids due to a tight schedule is a big thing.
And yes, your entire arguement about him having a lighter schedule seems to be based on the "fact" that WWE is lobbying hard for Kurt. Please give us some proof of that. Till then you cannot prove that Kurt will be given a lighter schedule in WWE. If I had to judge on the proof available at hand, I would say that Kurt's problems with alcohol and drugs and his attitude towards the WWE does not make him someone whom the WWE would be really keen on signing.
So basically, you're saying that despite WWE's constant lobbying for him to return, he wouldn't get much? You know, Wrestlemania isn't the only PPV on the calendar. Not every major thing needs to gyrate around it. But the really funny part is your belief that the former 4-time WWE Champion, former 2-time World Champion would end up facing... Daniel Bryan? On a PPV undercard? Fucking what? Facing the former World Champion, the most over guy in the company as of this week is a bad thing?
And I am not only talking bout WrestleMania. Rock wrestled at Survivor Series and WrestleMania this season and HHH was available for three PPV's. Brock is supposed to have signed on a two to three appearances a month type of a deal which may include PPV's. That is the reason why Kurt may get pegged back on the card.
The Rock is bigger than Kurt. Undertaker, another guy who may be available on a part time basis, is a bigger legend due to his character and his streak, HHH's recent matches against have greatly elevated his place in WWE history and have made him bigger than Kurt. Brock has become a bigger name due to his impact in UFC. Kurt is bound to be lower on the card as compared to these guys.
And Daniel Bryan, the most over guy? Nah. He got some attention for his quick loss which most internet fans claim is another chapter in the Vince vs Internet fanboys rivalry but he is still way behind Rock, Cena, HHH, Undertaker, Punk and Jericho in terms of overness. Had it not been for his quick loss at Mania, he would not have got half that attention.
I think I already said if WWE wants him, they'll do anything for him. It's WWE not the Russian military from the Soviet days.
You say this under
A) The pretense that he'll be under a regular WWE contract.
Like I said earlier dude, give me some proof that WWE is lobbying for Kurt and lobbying hard. If you have chosen to make this sort of statement you better have some proof to back it up or else this statement is null and void.
And yes, if WWE is not really lobbying hard for Kurt then I am pretty sure that they would not give him a light schedule.
B) Being in the Olympics again would apparently be a bad thing for WWE. Hell, that would make Vince have a boner to have one of his guys in the Olympics. *cough* Mark Henry *cough* *Arnold Strongman Classic *cough*
Just read what I have writtten man. Most people believe that Kurt has no fucking chance of making it to the Olympic team. Kurt has made it clear that his chances of making it to the Olympic team are slim to none. And now Kurt has injured himself while training for the Olympics. Do you think that Vince would let Kurt try out for something that he has very little chance of achieving and might potentially injure him and thereby affect his performance in the ring? Not a chance. Thinking that Vince would pay Kurt a truckload of money just to get injured is laughable.
But TNA does not care. TNA cares about making Kurt happy and supporting him in whatever venture he chooses. Kurt will be sad if he does not make it to the Olympic team but he will have the satisfaction of having given it a shot. Something WWE would not even allow him to do. Possibly, they are right. Vince is a realist. But, it would ultimately cause Kurt a lot of unhappiness.
He's also a reckless mess with no supervision. Like a teen with no parents. Great to be, huh?
He seems happy, he seems to be doing his job well enough and enjoying it as well. He is also following his own interests. Moreover, he is what he is because of the person that he is. TNA cannot be held responsible for the misdemeanours of a grown man. Who knows what will happen if he goes to WWE? Sure they will run their tests and may even suggest rehab but do you think that Kurt will even accept going to rehab particularily when he thinks he does not have much of a problem with drugs or drink?
I never said any of that. I just pointed out a few facts. What is more relevant is that the superstars you mentioned did not make so many unjustified attacks on WWE with such alarming frequency as Kurt does.
Am I debating you or Kurt himself? I know what he said. Just because he says it, doesn't mean he's right about it. If there were enough big names in WWE, why do they keep signing more? Kurt's just as big as Rocky, Undertaker and if it weren't for Kurt Angle, Brock Lesnar wouldn't be as big a deal as is today seeing Kurt was his most recurrent opponent. You're kidding yourself if you think WWE would just sign Kurt and leave him on the side.
Duh. Who said that I had implied that Kurt was right? It does not matter if Kurt is right or not. These interviews were an indication of how Kurt feels towards the WWE which is what I wanted to get at. Him being right or wrong is another matter and something not related with this debate at all. What is important in this debate is all about how Kurt feels towards the WWE. He despises the WWE and therefore
WWE keeps signing more and more big names because they want their roster to be star studded and as big as possible. That does not mean that they will go after everyone and particularily some guy that feels ill towards them and their and has made it clear time and again that he has no intention of working for them. Also, it does not mean signing as many big names as possible is a good sign for the big names themselves as some might resent working down the card. Particularily someone like Kurt Angle who has implied on twitter that he is the best wrestler on the planet.
And finally, Kurt Angle is not as big as Rocky or Undertaker. WrestleMania 28 is rumored to have drawn in 77,000+ fans and also drawn in 1.9 million buys. If you think Kurt could have done that, you are kidding me. Rock is considered by most wrestling fans as the most popular wrestler behind Hogan and Austin and these three men are considered to be in a league of their own. Undertaker may be closer to Kurt as a draw but due to the streak, his unique character and his loyalty to the WWE, he has become a bigger name than Kurt. As for Brock, Kurt helped made him but due to his exploits in MMA which have resulted in huge mainstream popularity Brock has become a bigger name than Kurt too.
Kurt, being the person that he is, might resent being on the card below these three men, particularily Brock Lesnar whom he claimed he could beat in a streetfight. Wonder if Kurt will try that out backstage in the WWE.
So essentially for you it's not a matter if it benefits Kurt to go to WWE or not, it's if he likes it or doesn't? I'm not looking for 'what if's' or compatibility issues. I'm looking for facts. If Kurt doesn't like being told he can't drink or if he can't have a Twitter or hates it when people use his finishers, that's on him. Those aren't BENEFIT'S, that's just what he thinks.
WWE's benefits far exceed TNA's no matter what he says in his interviews. It's up to him to take them. My job here is to point those benefits out. Not whether he'll like the offer or not. WWE offers special negotiations for talent of his caliber and support for guys with his tendencies as I already showed above. They also offer far more money. TNA just offers friends and liberty. If you think that benefits him more than what I said, great. It's your job after all. Though I don't buy it at all. But I don't really give a damn if he want's beer or Twitter or if he's pissed about Orton and Swagger doing his moves or if he wants to compete in the Olympics. I care about the opportunities WWE presents for him and the one's TNA doesn't. And so far all you've said is he's free to do whatever he want's. That's not a benefit. That's just a lose schedule. Which WWE can offer too.
Killjoy, you are not really stating anything novel when you say that WWE OFFERS a lot more than TNA. But it is also true that Kurt CANNOT BENEFIT from what WWE offers unless and until he is willing to ACCEPT the solution that WWE chalks up for him. Kurt Angle is an extremely stubborn man who thinks that what he is doing is always right. He is a grown man, not a child or an invalid whom you can force into rehab or shove a pill down their throat. Kurt Angle, the guy who is annoyed by someone using his finishing move, will never accept WWE putting him into therapy. He has never accepted to using drugs without prescription and every single thing suggests that he will deny it even now. He may decide to walk out the moment someone suggests rehab or maybe even assault someone backstage. We do know that he has a temper.
You have debated as if this is an idealized setting, Killjoy. I dare say, you are the one who is talking in a "what if" sort of scenario. You think that Kurt, the guy that gets annoyed at every minor thing, will accept every single thing that WWE tells him to do. It is mighty foolish to assume that. And more importantly, what happens when he resents WWE's solutions? That is the matter that is the most relevant part of this discussion.
I just want to address a few other points that have interested me through the course of this debate:
1. Kurt Angle, a mess? What the hell?
He's also a reckless mess with no supervision. Like a teen with no parents. Great to be, huh?
The question that I want to ask here is, why the hell do you think that this guy is a mess? Because he was arrested for drunk driving or because he was arrested for assault? Or is it because of his tweets? Chris Jericho is also guilty of all these offences which include questionable tweets. I don't see anyone calling him a mess.
Furthermore, Kurt Angle is trying out for the Olympics. He is not an idiot. He knows that he needs to be in very good shape to have even a slim chance at his age and with so many injuries.
Kurt Angle has his problems which have made even the WWE think twice before signing him but to suggest that he is destroying himself in TNA is incorrect. He has handled his midemeanours well and the allegation of drug abuse has not been proven against him as of yet. So unless, you know Kurt Angle, Killjoy and can prove it to us, you just cannot say that he is a mess.
2. Killjoy's hollow claim of WWE offering Kurt Angle a light schedule:
So yes, I asked you some proof to suggest that WWE has been lobbying hard for Kurt but the only thing you had to fall back on was Kurt's caliber. Again, if you think that that is the only thing that matters here, you need to wake up and smell the coffee.
Kurt Angle has had legal troubles. He has been suspected of having alcohol and drug related issues. Moreover, he is trying out for the Olympics, which has caused him an injury and something which Kurt has claimed he has little chance of achieving. He has also made disparaging remarks against the WWE and it's talent time and again. If you think that these things are not going to factor in WWE's interest towards Angle, then you are kidding yourself. These things suggest that WWE is not all that keen on signing Kurt let alone give him what he wants.
What next, Killjoy? Are you going to suggest that WWE is lobbying hard for Jeff Hardy as well? Jeff has caliber too, you know.
CONCLUSION
Throughout the course of the debate, it has been my aim to explain to the judges what kind of a man Kurt Angle is. Due to the number of interviews and tweets that I have provided, it must be apparent to anyone reading this debate that Kurt Angle is an extremely stubborn man and someone who is very difficult to deal with. My opponent has tried to play it safe here by just pointing out the benefits that WWE offers. That is, however, not going to be of any consequence unless and until Kurt Angle is willing to accept those benefits. It is apparent that Kurt, who resents every small thing that WWE does to him, will find it difficult in the WWE. In fact, having once signed with the WWE and resenting these benefits will cause Kurt more harm than good. Like I said, he may get into backstage fights, get suspended or may even walk out of the company. All this will ultimately hurt Kurt as a person and his legacy as a wrestler.
Kurt seems happy and content in TNA. I dare say that he is a big fish in a small pond, but that is what Kurt likes. He likes being treated like a star and being given the leeway to solve his problems on his own. So far, even though he has gotten into trouble a few times, he has managed to solve his problems. Killjoy said that Kurt is a mess but I do not find that to be the case.
I also asked Killjoy to provide some proof to back up his claims that Kurt was being lobbied for hard by the WWE and would hence get a lighter schedule contract but he was unable to provide any. Due to Kurt's comments in press and by social media towards WWE, its authority figures and its employees, his legal troubles and his suspected alcohol and drug issues, WWE would be very hesitant about signing him, let alone giving him the contract he wants. If Kurt goes to WWE, it would have to be on a regular schedule which will wreck havoc on his body, will not allow him to meet his kids in TNA and will also not allow him to follow his passion of trying out for the Olympics apart from affecting his work in the ring. He will be hurt big time from wrestling in a regular WWE schedule.
Finally, there is the question of the number of legends that are already available on the roster. As I have proved in my debate, all these guys, for one reason or the other have become bigger names than Kurt and Kurt will undoubtedly fall behind on the card which is bound to cause a guy, who thinks he is the best wrestler in the world and has hinted in tweets that he is even better than the likes of Austin, Flair and Michaels, some issues. He has little incentive to go to the WWE if he is going to end up wrestling the likes of Daniel Bryan in the midcard of a big PPV or the semi main event of some small, inconsequental PPV like Vengeance because the big names like Rock and Brock Lesnar will be available for all the big PPVs like WrestleMania, Summerslam, etc. If Brock Lesnar is preffered on the card as compared to Angle, that may lead to some PPV fights backstage as Kurt has claimed earlier that he is a better shootfighter that Brock. He may decide to practice what he preaches. Backstage fights, tiffs with the creative team, no-shows and even walkouts, everything is on the card if Kurt chooses to sign with the WWE.
Kurt has a problem with everything related to WWE and he will find it very difficult there. An unhappy worker hurts both himself and the company which he works for. That, in a nutshell, will be the story of Kurt Angle in WWE.
Money, negotiations, after-work assistance, bigger exposure, health benefits... WWE doesn't offer that? Really?
The question that I want to ask here is, why the hell do you think that this guy is a mess? Because he was arrested for drunk driving or because he was arrested for assault? Or is it because of his tweets? Chris Jericho is also guilty of all these offences which include questionable tweets. I don't see anyone calling him a mess.
Furthermore, Kurt Angle is trying out for the Olympics. He is not an idiot. He knows that he needs to be in very good shape to have even a slim chance at his age and with so many injuries.
Kurt Angle has his problems which have made even the WWE think twice before signing him but to suggest that he is destroying himself in TNA is incorrect. He has handled his midemeanours well and the allegation of drug abuse has not been proven against him as of yet. So unless, you know Kurt Angle, Killjoy and can prove it to us, you just cannot say that he is a mess.
I don't need to prove it. The constant "someone hacked my Twitter" jokes should speak volumes of how much of a mess he is. I don't need 4 paragraphs to prove it. A quick trip to the Spam Zone does that.
2. Killjoy's hollow claim of WWE offering Kurt Angle a light schedule:
So yes, I asked you some proof to suggest that WWE has been lobbying hard for Kurt but the only thing you had to fall back on was Kurt's caliber. Again, if you think that that is the only thing that matters here, you need to wake up and smell the coffee.
Kurt Angle has had legal troubles. He has been suspected of having alcohol and drug related issues. Moreover, he is trying out for the Olympics, which has caused him an injury and something which Kurt has claimed he has little chance of achieving. He has also made disparaging remarks against the WWE and it's talent time and again. If you think that these things are not going to factor in WWE's interest towards Angle, then you are kidding yourself. These things suggest that WWE is not all that keen on signing Kurt let alone give him what he wants.
What next, Killjoy? Are you going to suggest that WWE is lobbying hard for Jeff Hardy as well? Jeff has caliber too, you know.
Cute. You say I'm wrong but we have guys like Booker T, Kevin Nash, Brock Lesnar and The Rock literally just waltzing in and getting whatever they want. You gonna tell me Kurt couldn't do that? You're the hollow one. You keep trying to kid yourself into thinking Kurt isn't in the level of these guys. Unlike them, he's still consistent, so that would make him far superior. If WWE were to ever grab him again, he'd very easily become something similar to Shawn Michaels. Or are you gonna tell me Shawn had to bow to the WWE overlords too? Oh wait. You can't. You concluded your side of the debate. Oh well...
CONCLUSION
Throughout the course of the debate, it has been my aim to explain to the judges what kind of a man Kurt Angle is. Due to the number of interviews and tweets that I have provided, it must be apparent to anyone reading this debate that Kurt Angle is an extremely stubborn man and someone who is very difficult to deal with. My opponent has tried to play it safe here by just pointing out the benefits that WWE offers. That is, however, not going to be of any consequence unless and until Kurt Angle is willing to accept those benefits. It is apparent that Kurt, who resents every small thing that WWE does to him, will find it difficult in the WWE. In fact, having once signed with the WWE and resenting these benefits will cause Kurt more harm than good. Like I said, he may get into backstage fights, get suspended or may even walk out of the company. All this will ultimately hurt Kurt as a person and his legacy as a wrestler.
Kurt seems happy and content in TNA. I dare say that he is a big fish in a small pond, but that is what Kurt likes. He likes being treated like a star and being given the leeway to solve his problems on his own. So far, even though he has gotten into trouble a few times, he has managed to solve his problems. Killjoy said that Kurt is a mess but I do not find that to be the case.
I also asked Killjoy to provide some proof to back up his claims that Kurt was being lobbied for hard by the WWE and would hence get a lighter schedule contract but he was unable to provide any. Due to Kurt's comments in press and by social media towards WWE, its authority figures and its employees, his legal troubles and his suspected alcohol and drug issues, WWE would be very hesitant about signing him, let alone giving him the contract he wants. If Kurt goes to WWE, it would have to be on a regular schedule which will wreck havoc on his body, will not allow him to meet his kids in TNA and will also not allow him to follow his passion of trying out for the Olympics apart from affecting his work in the ring. He will be hurt big time from wrestling in a regular WWE schedule.
Finally, there is the question of the number of legends that are already available on the roster. As I have proved in my debate, all these guys, for one reason or the other have become bigger names than Kurt and Kurt will undoubtedly fall behind on the card which is bound to cause a guy, who thinks he is the best wrestler in the world and has hinted in tweets that he is even better than the likes of Austin, Flair and Michaels, some issues. He has little incentive to go to the WWE if he is going to end up wrestling the likes of Daniel Bryan in the midcard of a big PPV or the semi main event of some small, inconsequental PPV like Vengeance because the big names like Rock and Brock Lesnar will be available for all the big PPVs like WrestleMania, Summerslam, etc. If Brock Lesnar is preffered on the card as compared to Angle, that may lead to some PPV fights backstage as Kurt has claimed earlier that he is a better shootfighter that Brock. He may decide to practice what he preaches. Backstage fights, tiffs with the creative team, no-shows and even walkouts, everything is on the card if Kurt chooses to sign with the WWE.
Kurt has a problem with everything related to WWE and he will find it very difficult there. An unhappy worker hurts both himself and the company which he works for. That, in a nutshell, will be the story of Kurt Angle in WWE.
A) WWE > TNA as far as money, health benefits and negotiations go.
B) The Rock, Kevin Nash, Mick Foley, Brock Lesnar, all these guys don't hold up to Kurt Angle who still has high level matches and feuds consistently over the years. You're stupid enough to believe he'll fall back on card. You also posted an article where he's hailed by WWE as one of it's top 50 greatest superstars of all time after he was in TNA. Stop kidding yourself. If Jericho can come back to wrestle for the WWE Championship twice, Kurt Angle can do far more.
A return to the WWE will benefit Kurt Angle more than staying in TNA. Why? Well, what does TNA offer?
* My opponent didn't really point it out but TNA has direct connections to Spike TV and can negotiate deals with them for show and such as well as with Eric Bischoff's production company.
* TNA also offers the opportunity for wrestlers to work other wrestling related projects such as wrestling indie events, going to New Japan or AAA. TNA is international friendly than WWE.
* A nicer backstage work environment.
There. Rattlesnake only kept talking about how Kurt wouldn't like it in WWE and missing the point of this debate. I did his job for him. While these may be nice things TNA offers, WWE offers far more.
* More money. Guy like The Rock, John Cena and Brock Lesnar get an estimated millions yearly with travel and such paid as well. TNA barely reaches one million and reports of delayed payments have been made apparent a few months ago.
* More health benefits. WWE offers a Wellness Policy and of course a more expansive health plan. Not to mention the banning of bloodshed and head-related spots.
* Negotiable contracts. WWE negotiated a contract with The Rock for various appearances and 2 matches over the last year to allow him to maintain his Hollywood responsibilities. Brock Lesnar got a 35+ appearances contract with pay-per-date and more negotiable appearances. Not all of them require him to wrestle. Booker T, Mick Foley and Kevin Nash nabbed Legends Contracts. How could a man of Kurt Angle's stature not wager for these kinds of luxuries? The man is easily on par with these big names and has yet to show signs of retirement.
* Safer environment. Rather than being left to do whatever he want's WWE can supervise Kurt and keep him out of trouble.
Money and insurance seem to be quite the upside if you ask me. Rattlesnake brought up a few points over the course of the debate that were recurrent. Allow me to bring them up and correct them one final time for record's sake:
* Rattlesnake says Kurt Angle would not like returning WWE. Damn shame in a way. I already showed it has more benefits than sticking with TNA. Which is the real point of this debate. Personal opinions don't change want the company can offer.
* Rattlesnake says Kurt Angle will just get lost in the shuffle. Right. If Chris Jericho can waltz in to the WWE twice into World title match, the second one being at Wrestlemania annd Booker T and get off the announce table to wrestle the Intercontinental Champion, Kurt Angle can go out and do whatever he wants. WWE always considered Kurt superior to these guys and it's just laughable to think they'd bring him back just leave him doing nothing.
* Rattlesnake says WWE is oppressive. If so, why did guys who left WWE for TNA due to said oppressiveness return? The greater benefits.
Clarity: Better breakdowns and clearer work awards Killjoy his first point of this debate.
Punctuality: Rattlesnake was faster. Simple point really.
Informative: Killjoy had some good stuff going on here with the visual evidence, and backed points up with links. Rattlesnake did have pretty much the same amount of links, but lacked the "pizzazz" if you will and I felt Killjoy used his better and in a more relevant way.
Persuasion: For me I'll take Killjoy's argument over Rattlesnake's. He offered relevant evidence to todays WWE and todays Kurt Angle. He used cases like Mick Foley and Kevin Nash to highlight WWE's willingness to extend it's hand to those who had left under not so great circumstances and he also used the Rock as a great case of a part time worker getting big money and maintaining a career in Hollywood.
It looks like me and Funkay disagree on just about everything except one thing.
Clarity of debate - I actually thought that Rattlesnake was more clear in his opening post and all the other posts throughout the debate. Although he had many paragraphs, it didn't bother me because they were a nice length and separated so it was easy to read through them and keep up.
Punctuality - This would be the one thing I would agree with Funkay on. Although, he didn't make further posts, I thought he wrapped it pretty well and was quicker with his responses.
Informative - No way was Killjoy more informative. I don't know what you're smoking Funkay, but throughout the debate Rattlesnake brought in lots of useful, relevant information. The pictures were nice, but is that all Killjoy had and one interview?
Good job on providing the links here as well Rattle. Just what I wanted and you definitely excelled here.
Persuasion - Ultimately, I could not buy into one thing Killjoy was saying. Not one. I thought you started off horribly in your first few points and continued to go downhill. Not once did I even think Kurt could benefit even just a little by going back to the WWE. If I'm not mistaken he was offered rehab and he refused when he was going out of the WWE, so why would he accept it if he went back? He's a former WWE star anyways so he can take up the offer at anytime. I think I once read that the WWE send out letters YEARLY letters to all former and present talent, so if that is true then I'm sure Kurt received a letter at one point or another. Point blank, Kurt doesn't want to help Kurt and I think Rattlesnake masterfully proved that and got the upper hand because his points were simply better.
Clarity - Both had some nice openers and remained steady in their points. However, Killjoy's conclusion post gets this point. That was beautiful.
Point - The Killjoy
Punctuality - Not sure if I agree with either on this point. Killjoy had a post just over an hour of Rattlesnake's, and was never late. You can look for consistency, I'll take the quickest draw in he-ah.
Point - The Killjoy
Informative - Rattlensnake had a bunch of links talking about Angle talking about the 'E and people in it. That's all well and good. Killjoy had nice links about how the WWE wanted him back, and lovely pictures too. Though the one link I would have loved would be to the Wellness Policy.
Lulz. ST there was nowhere that FunKay said there was more information provided by Killjoy than Rattlesnake. He's saying that he liked Killjoy's more and that Rattlesnake didn't have enough pizzazz. Cripes man.
Point - The Rattlesnake
Persuasion - The debate is about whether going to the WWE would be beneficial to Kurt Angle. All Rattlesnake did was say that the working environment is too rough for him and that he probably wouldn't like it. Big fucking deal. Killjoy's conclusion was the driving force behind me giving him these points. Offering more money, likely a light schedule, rehab to maybe try and save him from possible substance abuse. Kurt's piss ass attitude towards people in the company doesn't mean it wouldn't be beneficial.
Points - The Killjoy
CH David scores this The Killjoy 4, The Rattlesnake 1.
That was a long read but it was expected. Both of these guys have similar, yet different debating styes and a lot to say on specific subjects. I'm glad this debate gave them a platform to really open up.
Clarity: Both guys did a good job in their opening posts but one was a thing of beauty. Plus, he kept breaking away from the quote -> reply style and restructured his posts to make it a much easier read later on in the debate. Lastly, his conclusion was clear, concise, and basically killed it.
Point - The Killjoy
Punctuality: You guys both left little time in between your posts. Each of you debated twice per day and I can understand if a few posts from Rattlesnake were a bunch of hours after Killjoy's considering the fact that the guy has to fucking sleep sometime, right?
Anyway, I know how tough it is to go to bed, wake up, and commit to this league by posting a reply first thing in the morning. Therefore, I give Rattlesnake a lot of credit and the point.
Point - The Rattlesnake
Informative: I find it enjoyable when a debater uses great citations and, if they don't feel their opponent gets their point, they repeat it to ram it home. It makes me feel like said poster is saying, "You hear me but you don't listen. If you're not going to listen to me then I'll repeat myself."
Point - The Rattlesnake
Persuasion: I've got a lot to say here.
It's one thing to gather great citations and facts, bring them to a debate, and make points. But if every single one of your points sounds like your opinion and doesn't jive with the facts that you provide, that means you're trying to debate with opinions and not facts. When you bring REAL information to a debate, it should speak for itself. Instead, one poster tried to force-feed us all when a citation or fact alluded to a specific point that supported one of their personal opinions. Opinions that were, quite frankly, outlandish and ridiculous.
In other words, try this example:
I can sit here and say that I'm thirsty. I can ask someone else for a glass of water. But if someone sees that I'm thirsty and hears me ask someone for a glass of water, it would be total horseshit for them to run around telling everyone that I'm dying of thirst. Honestly, that type of debating pisses me off. Too many facts were used as a catalyst to launch nothing more than an exaggerated opinion. If you call that debating then I suggest you do more research or watch how a REAL debate works.
A good example to support my point would be footage of Sarah Palin's debates in the 2008 presidential race. That was her forte and it also began the downfall of republican candidate John McCain. Watch the movie, "Game Change." It'll teach you a lot.
Points - The Killjoy
D-Man scores this The Killjoy 3, The Rattlesnake 2.
Congratulations to The Killjoy who defeats The Rattlesnake by a nail-biting score of 11-9. He will move onto Winner's semi-final bracket #21 to face Rohan while The Rattlesnake moves down to Loser's bracket #18 to face the winner of Milenko and CP Munk.
Great work, guys. A fine debate by you both and the best one of the tournament, thus far.
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