DirtyJosé;3853592 said:
First of all, the burden is on you to explain HOW and WHY championships define greatness. All I see you come up with is that famous guys have been champions, so that must be the ruler we're using. Only problem with that is that every statement you make like that must be followed with an asterisk explaining that it doesn't apply to everyone, only to the ones who were great already.
OK, I will say it again, except now in an even easier way, so that you can finally grasp what I am saying.
The greatness of a wrestler is defined by the fact that they
ALL are always champions, or at least chasing championships.
And no, it does apply to everyone. I never once said simply being a former champion defines their greatness. I said consistently holding the championship is the best way to
DEFINE a wrestlers greatness.
DirtyJosé;3853592 said:
Secondly, what defined RVD's greatness then (and for most of his career) wasn't one run with the Television Title; it was his performance. It was his charisma and his athleticism. It was RVD bringing something fresh to the scene that people wanted to see (and to a degree still do). People didn't tune into RVD because he was the TV Champion; they only ended up caring about the TV Title because RVD made it relevant. This is what I mean by "the man makes the title".
If RVDs performance is what defines his greatness, as you claim, then why is his greatest accomplishment in wrestling not his good matches or his performance, or his charisma or athleticism (the first 3 attributes are all in quotations to highlight their subjectivity), but his TV title run? Again, if anything RVD was the absolute WORST example you could have picked. As great as he was, people always harken to how he held the TV Championship for 23 months and change.
You are defined by your accomplishments, not by talent (which is entirely subjective). Championships are accomplishments, not charisma, performance, good matches, or whatever.
DirtyJosé;3853592 said:
And for a promotion to feature a performer as a champion consistently, they must prove themselves great enough to be worth the effort. So, even by your own words, the championship isn't so much a definition of greatness so much as a result of it. Even repeat champions of various types have been flops. To fit into your defense of championship as being the be-all-end-all definition of greatness, you're forced to disregard the legions of champions of various types who were never able to become truly great. This is what I meant by your argument constantly needing an asterisk to mark the many exceptions.
Again, you are completely ignoring what I am saying. I have never said that getting a title run makes you an all-time great. I never said winning the title itself makes you great. Hell, I never even said the all-time greats weren't great before they won the title. What I have said is that their greatness is
DEFINED by their championships. When you look back on a wrestlers career, the only thing that separates the all-time greats from the just good is the fact that the all-time greats spend the vast majority of their career either as champion or chasing the championship.
If you want to waste your time and keep arguing that Dolph Ziggler or Alberto Del Rio aren't great, fine. That's a waste of time, as that isn't at all what I am saying; They aren't all-time greats. Never said they were. You're putting words in my mouth, and I find it rather offensive and appalling.
DirtyJosé;3853592 said:
Um, yeah, no. They have more in common than that. Each was a draw for their day. Though each took slightly different paths to get there, each of these guys were able to rise above their peers and demonstrate that they had something to offer, be it the athleticism of guys like Hart, the charisma of guys like Cena and Hogan and Austin, or the dedication to and talent for crafting breath taking matches from guys like HHH, HBK, and Savage.
No, they weren't all a draw. HBK didn't draw shit. The company was on the verge of bankruptcy while he was on top.
And again, you are giving me the credit for my argument. You say they all have different attributes. That again reinforces my argument that those attributes do not define greatness.
DirtyJosé;3853592 said:
And while we're on the point of picking some of the best and going "hey look, they had championships, so championships must be what makes a wrestler great", what about the guys who never picked up WWE Championship runs (to use the example you've put forth) but are still remembered as some of the greatest? In the same way that Dan Marino is often remembered as one of the greatest NFL quarterbacks even though he never won "the big one", what about guys like Jimmy Snuka and Roddy Piper? If championships are what defines greatness, are we to ignore two of the most influential and popular performers of their generation? Are we supposed to write them off, to write off their entire career, simply because, like Marino, they never won "the big one"? Or are we forced to add an asterisk to your argument?
First of all, this is a wrestling debate, where the champions are decided by an entity, and not in competition. Thus bringing up Sportsmen like Marino is irrelevant.
Secondly, Jimmy Snuka and Roddy Piper are not All-time greats. Snuka isn't even close, and Piper is very good, but nowhere near great. Snuka was never a consistent main eventer, never chasing a championship, and never a champion. He put on good matches, but was not an all-time great.
Piper was excellent, and still is a good talker. He wasn't an all-time great on par with Hogan/Sammartino/Flair/etc.
DirtyJosé;3853592 said:
Really? I've never heard anyone go "you know why I love Stone Cold? Because he was champion all teh time!". In fact, I've never known any performer to be over simply because they were the champion. On the other hand, I have heard plenty about people loving Stone Cold because he resonated with the working class. I have heard plenty about people loving Stone Cold because they've always wanted to punch their boss too. I have heard plenty about people loving Stone Cold because the guy could put on a great match, because they loved his brawling style, and because his promos set the bar for the rest of the Attitude Era.
Yes, his attributes are what makes people love him. But what sets him apart from guys like The Godfather, the New Age Outlaws, Mankind, etc, is that he was always the champion or chasing the championship. As such, all-time greats are DEFINED by the championships they were involved with.
DirtyJosé;3853592 said:
Yet another asterisk to add to your argument. "It doesn't define greatness for all of them, only the ones who were already great". I mean, where do you draw that line? How do you separate the greats from the "meaningless"? Could it be that possibly that line is drawn between the ones who have shown other definable traits that make them great and the ones who haven't? Again, all I seem to get out of you is that being a successful champion is more-or-less a consequence of being great, and not a definition of greatness in and of itself.
The line is quite simple actually. The All-time greats are defined by how they are spending the majority of the time with the Championship, or chasing the championship.
DirtyJosé;3853592 said:
Not really, but I can't say I'm surprised that the point is going over your head. The point is that the belt is a prop. Without the right guy wearing it, it's junk. A truly great performer can take any championship and make it matter; a shit performer is going to continue being shit, and may end up hurting the prestige of any title.
Which is exactly why constantly holding the title is what DEINES how great they are. They aren't giving the shit guys lengthy runs at the belt. Only the greats consistently hold the championship.
DirtyJosé;3853592 said:
Basically, your argument boils down to "all the greats have been champion". Not only is this statement blatantly ignoring greats who never "got there" like the aforementioned examples of Snuka and Piper, but it is riddled with exceptions you're forced to write off as "meaningless". Your argument is absurd; by the same logic, couldn't one argue that all the greats have won wrestling matches at some point or another, and so winning wrestling matches defines greatness?
First of all, I find you putting Snuka and Piper along the lines of Hogan, Sammartino, Cena, Triple H, etc rather pathetic. Piper was a level below them, and Snuka about 5 levels below them.
And no, just winning matches wouldn't define it either, as then guys like Eugene (who won 66% of his matches) would be considered better then Ric Flair (who won 46%).
DirtyJosé;3853592 said:
Isn't that two sentences? And, again, what about the exceptions? In the case of your point here, what about someone like Jake the Snake? Challenged two times for a mid-card title and once for the non-canon Million Dollar Championship, and lost every time. And yet, he's remembered as a great for his astounding charisma, his mastery of wrestling psychology, and his physical talents. The DDT, his creation, has gone on to become a staple of modern wrestling, a feat not many can also claim.
If there is one exception to the rule, it is Andre the Giant. He was an all time great, but more of a traveling sideshow who would appear for various promotions.
Jake Roberts was not at all an all-time great. He never was a top draw, he never was a main eventer, etc. He was a good wrestler, but hardly an all-time great. And yeah, he invented the DDT, good for him. If inventing a popular move gets you to be an all-time great, then half the wrestlers in the past are all-time greats, as they invented moves too. Someone had to invent the body-slam, dropkick, and the dreaded big boot. That doesn't mean they are great.
And yeah, it kinda was 2 sentences. But it was 2 sentences that have been more accurate then every sentence you have written so far. I'll take it.
DirtyJosé;3853592 said:
In other words, what defines greatness in a performer is not if or how often he's held a championship. It has more to do with their talents, their strengths, their connection with the audience. It has more to do their lasting impression on the business and on the fans. Different superstars are great for different reasons, but they all come down to tangible traits and talents, and not one of them is simply because they held a leather bound piece of bling.
In all walks of life, people consider others great for their accomplishments. Great athletes are great because of their accomplishments (championships, awards, records, etc), and the same is true for all occupations. The same is true for wrestlers. The ability to put on good matches (again, very subjective, as some peoples good matches are shit matches to others), being charismatic (again, subjective, some people would argue that guys aren't as charismatic as others think), or being athletic, or being different are not what makes people great. If that was the case, then guys like The Boogeyman (different), William Regal (good matches), Shelton Benjamin (Athletic), or Road Dogg (Charismatic) would all be all-time greats. They aren't.