Winner's Bracket Debate #4: Paralyzer Z -vs- Rattlesnake

Discussion in 'Debater's League 2012' started by D-Man, Mar 25, 2012.

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  1. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    Factions in the WWE Hall of Fame: Good Idea or Bad Idea?



    This is a first round, winner's bracket debate in the 2012 Wrestlezone Debater's League Tournament.

    Rattlesnake won the coin toss and will be the home debater. He's earned the right to choose EITHER which side of the debate he wants to argue OR who provides the opening statement. He can also defer this choice to his opponent. (The home debater has 24 hours to make this decision otherwise it is automatically deferred to his opponent.)

    After these choices are made, the first post of the debate must be posted within the first 24 hours otherwise it will affect the starter's Punctuality portion of the judging. Debaters have 24 hours to respond to their opponent's post and the faster the response, the better chance you have to score higher point totals.

    The maximum amount of posts for each debater in this round is three. Once this criteria is met, (or the allotted time of the debate runs out,) the debate will end and judging will commence.

    This thread is for DEBATERS ONLY and will end on Thursday at 2pm EST where judging will immediately begin. Judging must be finished no later than Saturday at 2pm EST.

    Anyone that posts in this thread besides the debaters, league admins, and judges will be infracted!

    Good luck to the participants.
     
    #1
  2. Hulk Hogan's Brother

    Hulk Hogan's Brother Stop asking me what I'm gonna do!!!

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    I'll argue that including factions in the WWE Hall of Fame is a good idea.

    Good luck, Paralyzer.
     
    #2
  3. Paralyzer Z

    Paralyzer Z Fuck honor

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    OK then I choose that I will go first, Rattlesnake of course second.

    DING, DING, DING!
     
    #3
  4. Paralyzer Z

    Paralyzer Z Fuck honor

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    Factions in the Hall of Fame aren't an ideal idea and I feel this way because..



    It shreds the # of available legends to induct up faster​


    First and foremost, the Hall of Fame is obviously reserved for legends of the business and in some cases celebrities that did something minor relating to pro wrestling.

    Everyone knows that the obvious inductees such as Austin, Hogan, Flair and Michaels as well as so many others that are or have been huge names in the industry have already gained entry. By now most of the huge names have already been inducted, after all there have been about 13 ceremonies already. With several Hall of Fame entrees with the exception of the inaugural single entry. It seems that for the most part nearly everyone that deserves to go into the Hall of Fame has already gone in, with minimal exceptions that in total may amount to half an inductee class. An industry can have a limitless # of legends but those are formed over time, when exactly is the next time WWE will have a crap load of legends to induct that could very well be substantial for many years to comes? They where in that position back in 2004 when they decided to resurrect the ceremony and begin throwing names in there. It's been 8 years since then with an abundance of names going in since then.

    Inducting in faction only decreases the # of available inductive as I stated before. Of course tag teams such as the Wild Samoans and the Blackjacks are only 2 each so that in my mind is fine. However look at the 2009 induction of the Von Erich family: 6 guys all at once entering the Hall of fame witch could have been used gradually and spaced out over the years to keep the crop of relevant legends intact. The 2012 induction of the 4 horsemen is another example: guys have built there legacy together but at the same time have their own singles careers that are great enough for a single induction. I mean this is the 4 horsemen, made of legends completely.

    It's more convenient to have single induction for glory sakes

    These are guys that have spent many years entertaining wrestling fans all around the globe. In my mind getting inducted with a group is much less prestigious than being on the receiving end of a solo place in the Hall of Fame. Like I stated the prime example here is the four horsemen who are being inducted this year. All of the men, Flair, Anderson, Blanchard, and Windham have their own careers that are HOF worthy that they can reflect on when giving the usual speech the nigh before Wrestlemania. Why share the glory among 4 men when they can individually have it with satisfaction. I am aware that it seems more "appropriate" to induct the guys together considering a large part of the reason they reached legend status is due to being together in the faction. Take into account that their only accolades have not been brought on only because they were apart of a kafaybe faction. Just look at each man's accomplishments outside of the group:

    Blanhard
    Central States Wrestling
    NWA Central States Heavyweight Championship (1 time)
    Mid-Atlantic Championship Wrestling / Jim Crockett Promotions
    NWA National Heavyweight Championship (1 time)1
    NWA Television Championship (1 time)[1]
    NWA United States Heavyweight Championship (1 time)
    NWA World Tag Team Championship (Mid-Atlantic version) (2 times) - with Arn Anderson
    NWA World Television Championship (2 times)
    National Wrestling Alliance
    NWA Hall of Fame (Class of 2009)[
    NWA All-Star Wrestling (North Carolina)2
    NWA World Tag Team Championship (1 time) - with Barry Windham
    Pro Wrestling Illustrated
    PWI Feud of the Year (1987) Four Horsemen vs. Super Powers and the Road Warriors
    PWI Tag Team of the Year (1989) with Arn Anderson
    PWI ranked him #52 of the top 500 singles wrestlers of the "PWI Years" in 2003
    Southwest Championship Wrestling
    SCW Southwest Heavyweight Championship (6 times3)
    SCW Southwest Tag Team Championship (5 times) - with Gino Hernandez
    SCW Southwest Television Championship (3 times)
    SCW World Tag Team Championship (2 times) - with Gino Hernandez

    Anderson
    Jim Crockett Promotions / World Championship Wrestling
    NWA National Tag Team Championship (1 time) - with Ole Anderson
    NWA (Mid-Atlantic)/WCW World Tag Team Championship (5 times) - with Tully Blanchard (2), Larry Zbyszko (1), Bobby Eaton (1), and Paul Roma
    NWA/WCW World Television Championship (4 times)
    Pro Wrestling Illustrated
    PWI ranked him #8 of the 500 best wrestlers in the PWI 500 in 1991.
    PWI Feud of the Year (1987) Four Horsemen vs. Super Powers and the Road Warriors
    PWI Tag Team of the Year (1989) with Tully Blanchard
    PWI Tag Team of the Year (1991) with Larry Zbyszko
    PWI Stanley Weston Award (1997)
    PWI ranked him #62 of the top 500 singles wrestlers of the "PWI Years" in 2003[7]
    Southeastern Championship Wrestling
    NWA Southeastern Tag Team Championship (4 times) - with Jerry Stubbs and Pat Rose (1)[8]
    World Wrestling Federation / WWE
    WWF Tag Team Championship (1 time) - with Tully Blanchard
    WWE Hall of Fame (Class of 2012)
    Wrestling Observer Newsletter awards
    5 Star Match (1992) with Rick Rude, Steve Austin, Bobby Eaton, & Larry Zbyszko vs. Nikita Koloff, Sting, Ricky Steamboat, Barry Windham, & Dustin Rhodes (May 17, WarGames match, WrestleWar)
    Best on Interviews (1990)
    Worst Worked Match of the Year (1996) with Ric Flair, Meng, The Barbarian, Lex Luger, Kevin Sullivan, Z-Gangsta and The Ultimate Solution vs. Hulk Hogan and Randy Savage, WCW Uncensored, Towers of Doom match, Tupelo, MS, March 24

    Windham

    Championship Wrestling from Florida
    NWA Florida Global Tag Team Championship (1 time) – with Ron Bass
    NWA Florida Heavyweight Championship (6 times)[75]
    NWA Florida Tag Team Championship (2 times) – with Mike Graham (1) and Scott McGhee (1)
    NWA Florida Television Championship (3 times)[77]
    NWA North American Tag Team Championship (Florida version) (1 time) – with Mike Graham
    NWA Southern Heavyweight Championship (Florida version) (2 times)
    NWA United States Tag Team Championship (Florida version) (3 times) – with Mike Rotunda
    Jim Crockett Promotions / World Championship Wrestling
    Lex Luger
    NWA United States Heavyweight Championship (1 time)
    NWA United States Tag Team Championship (1 time) – with Ron Garvin
    NWA Western States Heritage Championship (1 time)[7]
    NWA World Heavyweight Championship (1 time)[3]
    NWA World Tag Team Championship (1 time) - with Dustin Rhodes1
    NWA World (Mid-Atlantic)/WCW World Tag Team Championship (4 times) – with Lex Luger (1), Dustin Rhodes (1), Curt Hennig (1), and Kendall Windham (1)[8]
    WCW World Television Championship (1 time)[6]
    Music City Wrestling
    NWA North American Heavyweight Championship (1 time)
    NWA All-Star Wrestling (North Carolina)
    NWA World Tag Team Championship (1 time) - with Tully Blanchard
    NWA New England
    NWA New England Heavyweight Championship (1 time)

    Flair

    Professional Wrestling Hall of Fame and Museum
    Class of 2006
    Pro Wrestling Report
    Match of the Year (2008) vs. Shawn Michaels at WrestleMania 24
    Most Memorable Moment—retirement
    St. Louis Wrestling Club
    NWA Missouri Heavyweight Championship (1 time)[184]
    St. Louis Wrestling Hall of Fame
    Class of 2007
    World Wrestling Federation / World Wrestling Entertainment
    WWF Championship (2 times)
    World Tag Team Championship (3 times)—with Batista (2) and Roddy Piper (1)[185]
    WWE Intercontinental Championship (1 time)
    Royal Rumble (1992)[185]
    WWE Hall of Fame (Class of 2008) - as a singles competitor
    WWE Hall of Fame (Class of 2012) - as a member of the Four Horsemen
    Thirteenth Triple Crown Champion
    Slammy Award for Match of the Year (2008) vs. Shawn Michaels at WrestleMania XXIV
    Wrestling Observer Newsletter
    Best Heel (1990)
    Best Interviews (1991, 1992, 1994)
    Feud of the Year (1989) vs. Terry Funk
    Match of the Year (1983) vs. Harley Race in a steel cage match at Starrcade
    Match of the Year (1986) vs. Barry Windham at Battle of the Belts II on February 14
    Match of the Year (1988) vs. Sting at Clash of the Champions I
    Match of the Year (1989) vs. Ricky Steamboat at WrestleWar
    Most Charismatic (1980, 1982–1984, 1993)
    Most Outstanding (1986, 1987, 1989)
    Readers' Favorite Wrestler (1984–1993, 1996)
    Worst Feud of the Year (1990) vs. The Junkyard Dog
    Worst Worked Match of the Year (1996) with Arn Anderson, Meng, The Barbarian, Lex Luger, Kevin Sullivan, Z-Gangsta and The Ultimate Solution vs. Hulk Hogan and Randy Savage in a Towers of Doom match at Uncensored
    Wrestler of the Year (1982–1986, 1989, 1990, 1992)

    Well to me all of those careers can (and in Flair's case have) be worthy of a solo induction. Yes, many of thees men's accomplishments correlate with each other on more than one occasion, but that doesn't overshadow their single achievements period. This can be said for the Von Erich family as well the only difference being that they are a larger entity and their accolades correlate a bit more. That is why faction inductions are not ideal, in some cases mildly appropriate but not always the best choice.
     
    #4
  5. Hulk Hogan's Brother

    Hulk Hogan's Brother Stop asking me what I'm gonna do!!!

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    What is the WWE Hall of Fame?​


    The WWE Hall of Fame was officially created on February 1, 1993 with the intention of honoring the very best in proffesional wrestling. It was abandoned after 1996 and then restarted in 2004 to coincide with the 20th anniversary of WrestleMania. While the inclusion of certain wrestlers has often been met with ridicule by the fans, barring a few exceptions, there is no doubt that the best in the business have been honored. The WWE Hall of Fame is not only limited to singles wrestlers. It has also inducted managers, tag teams and even prominent wrestiling families.

    Recently WWE announced that it would induct one of the greatest stables of pro wrestling, The Four Horsemen into the WWE. It has opened up a debate as to whether factions should be honored or not and I for one have no doubt that they should be extended this honour of being inducted in the HOF. The reasons are as follows.

    1. There are stables that have achieved quite a lot in wrestling and their contributions need to be honored.​


    As I just stated the Hall of Fame is about honoring successful people involved in wrestling and there are stables that have achieved huge success in wrestling. The prominent examples are as follows.

    The Four Horsemen: Angles involving stables continue to do very well in wrestling till this day and this was the stable that started it all. The Four Horsemen were all about domination by numbers. It was about four guys trying to help each other in winning titles and thus dominate the company. Though it has gone through many incarnations, the best incarnation is considered to be the one which held all the NWA titles by April 1988, the one consisting of Ric Flair, Tully Blanchard, Arn Anderson and Barry Windham. That is not only my opinion but that of Jim Ross, the man who is of the firm opinion that this is the version of the four horsemen that should be included in the HOF in the interview here.

    http://wwe.sify.com/shows/articles/Jim_Ross_rides_with_The_Four_Horsemen-366377

    The Four Horsemen made stars out of everybody that feuded with them. Notable examples are the likes of Dusty Rhodes, Sting and The Road Warriors. The Four Horsemen is also considered to be the ideal blueprint for a stable. But their biggest contribution as Jim Ross has stated here is the fact that they paved the way for other stables like DX and nWo. Here is what Jim Ross has said in the Four Horsemen DVD.

    http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x208ss_ric-flair-the-four-horseman-dvd-tra_sport

    I implore you judges, how can inducting a stable that has achieved so much ever be a bad idea? Does an arguement even exist for not inducting them?

    nWo: The moment Scott Hall jumped the railing on the May 27th episode of Nitro, the world of wrestling was never the same again. Just how fake was pro wrestling, was the question on everyone's minds. Most fans were convinced that Vince McMahon had sent over Scott and later Kevin Nash to screw WCW. The biggest moment of this event came when Hulk Hogan, hitherto the greatest babyface in wrestling history, turned heel for the first time. Let us witness the moment again

    [YOUTUBE]t6aRr9zhyM8[/YOUTUBE]

    Such a reaction has never been achieved ever again and nor had it been achieved before. The nWo made stars out of a previously unknown DDP, made Sting's popularity rise even more and most importantly beat WWF for 84 consecutive weeks.

    Again, I ask you judges, why should this faction not be included? Does a reason even exist?

    I can talk about more factions like DX and Evolution but I feel I have made my point. In a world where the likes of Pete Rose are being inducted into the WWE Hall of Fame for merely being Kane's bitch for three WrestleManias, the inclusion of factions who have legitimately changed the very face of wrestling can only be a good idea.

    2. Including factions together makes more sense than including the members one by one.​


    I ask you, judges, how does a faction gain notoreity? Is it because of the individual faction members acting seperately or because of them acting as one cohesive unit? If they have made their reputation by being a part of a unit, they deserve to be honored as a unit, not one by one.

    The other thing that I feel is that the impact of the faction gets diluted if you enter the faction members one by one. Let us say that Barry Windham and not The Four Horsemen are included in the WWE Hall of Fame. Now Windham is a legend in his own right and the Horsemen phase will only be a footnote in Windham's career. As such, I do not believe that the Horsemen will get much coverage and thereby not their place in the sun. Pound for pound, The Four Horsemen are a more recognizable name than Barry Windham and if it ever came down to a choice between them, honoring the horsemen would be the right choice because their achievements and their impact on the industry are greater than that of their individual members save Ric Flair.

    The same can be said about nWo. Who deserves the honor more, Scott Hall or nWo? Scott Hall was a midcarder in the WWF who was a part of some good feuds and a couple of great ladder matches and in WCW too he was a midcard guy who got one title shot. The nWo was the stable that turned pro wrestling on it's head. Scott Hall did more for the business as a part of the nWo than he did without it. So do the two parts of his career, one during which he was a part of the nWo and one during which he was not deserve to be held in equal footing. I certainly disagree and thereby feel that nWo deserves to be in more than Scott Hall as an individual.

    I should also add that I am not against inducting the likes of Scott Hall or Barry Windham into the HOF, I am against including them and not the legendary stables they have been a part of.

    I would like to conclude with stating that I truly believe that including stables in the WWE Hall of Fame can only be a great idea.
     
    #5
  6. Paralyzer Z

    Paralyzer Z Fuck honor

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    So basically it's a prestigious honor that should not be limited to singles wrestlers? Sure it shouldn't be exclusive to singles wrestlers, I agree that tag teams, managers, valets, commentators, or even backstage interviewers should be honored through inclusion into the Hall of Fame. However the induction itself should be reserved to one at a time. Their time in a faction wouldn't be overlooked, after there is a video package prior to the speech that most often than not covers most aspects of one's career.

    We all know of the great things done by the four horsemen together as a cohesive unit. Hence why if solo individual inductions were done their legacy relating to the 4 horsemen would undoubtedly be a large part of the reason they are being included in the Hall of Fame, but why waste it all on one instance when you can spread it out over 3 other separate entrees into the Hall. Their time in the horsemen wouldn't be overlooked as I said, a solo induction gives them a chance to show both the aspects of their solo and of their faction career. A group inclusion would overshadow completely the accomplishments of each of these 4 legends have done on their own.

    Sure much like the Four Horsemen the NWO is a legendary stable, if not the most famous in pro wrestling history. Take into account of what exactly the NWO is most known for being made up of: Hogan who's solo career success remains unparalleled by anyone in the history of the industry, so much that he has already been inducted into the Hall of Fame. Nash who is a legend in his own right mostly due to the NWO but not without he run as Diesel or anything during his runs in WWE/F. The last of the essential 3 Scott Hall wrestled in what often is heralded as the greatest ladder match of all time, wrestled with the National wrestling Alliance being pitted against greats such as Dusty Rhodes, and wrestled an "epic 58 minute match aside Curt Henning in the AWA.

    Those are just shreds of what these 3 men did solo sure the NWO did wonders for them but look at what it did to the "other less fortunate members" of the original incarnation:
    , Ted DiBiase (left), The Giant (kicked out of the group), nWo Sting, Syxx (fired), Vincent, Nick Patrick (kicked out of the group), Miss Elizabeth, Eric Bischoff, Buff Bagwell, V.K. Wallstreet (left), Masahiro Chono, Big Bubba Rogers (left), Scott Norton, Randy Savage, Dennis Rodman, The Great Muta, Konnan, Curt Hennig, Rick Rude, Dusty Rhodes, Scott Steiner, Brian Adams

    Only a handful of these guys deserve to be inducted into the Hall of Fame. The nWo as a cohesive unit didn't make them, the ones it did make such as the original 3 had already had successive singles careers. Hell even Savage, Dibiase, Big Show, Rhodes, Henning, and Rude all had better singles careers. My point is that to be great in this faction Hogan, Nash, and Hall had already been big names, how they got to be big names prior to that fateful 1996 night would be overshadowed if they had all been inducted at once. The nWo didn't make them, they made the nWo along with plenty of lackeys and a few big names. Their single legacies deserve recognition as well as their nWo stint.


    Diluted? Like you said Windham is a legend in his own right, the horsemen to his career are far bigger than a footnote. Honoring Windham is different than honoring the 4 horsemen. Honoring the group is specifically taking a look back what THEY did, while most likely ignoring what each member did individually, which while maybe not as grand still should get some mention in some form or another. It's not like these guys spend their entire wrestling career (look at Flair) in the group tearing up the place, they spent a lot of time outside of the group just look at the accolades in my opening statement. Unlike the nWO they may have not made the group by being big names before the formation, but even after the horsemen they still have respectable accolades outside of the group.

    Well I can say that while his nWo run was much more of a memorable success than anything he did before it, it's still Scott Hall. The guy who was a member of the Kliq, had great ladder matches, and had a good mid-card run in WWF. Like I said the day he Hogan and Nash turned pro wrestling upside down at Bash at the Beach that immediately became the golden age of his career, still it's not the only age. Honoring someone should include not only the best in their career but also the content parts and in some occasion even bad times for sympathy purpose. All of the latter wouldn't be overlooked in an individual entree.

    Combining the legendary stables they have been apart of and the other stuff is possible, through single entrees. Hence why I think that including stables in the Hall of Fame isn't a great idea.
     
    #6
  7. Hulk Hogan's Brother

    Hulk Hogan's Brother Stop asking me what I'm gonna do!!!

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    There is nothing to suggest that those wrestlers that have been inducted as the part of a faction will not be inducted as singles wrestlers at a later stage. In fact such a thing will take place this year with Ric Flair being inducted into the WWE Hall of Fame in 2008 and the Four Horsemen slated to be inducted into the Hall of Fame this year. There is no either/ or sort of scenario here which states that a wrestler cannot be included as a singles wrestler if he has gone in as a part of a stable or vice versa. As you have pointed out most of the guys involved with the stables have had illustrious careers, Hall of Fame worthy careers and so they will probably be inducted into the HOF at some stage. Their inclusion as a stable does not take away that honor from them.

    Again like I said, Paralyzer, being inducted as a stable does not bar anyone from being inducted as an individual. There is nothing to prove that that is the case. So even if they are inducted as a stable, nothing is stopping the individual performers from getting the "glory" they deserve from being inducted as a singles performer.

    Another thing that troubles me is your assuming that a singles induction is somehow more prestigious than the induction as a part of a great stable. How is it so man? Can Billy Gunn say that he had a more prestigious career as a singles performer as compared to his time in DX? He portrayed some extremely stupid gimmicks man, like a gay character as a part of the Billy and Chuck tag team and another time, a man fixated with his own ass. How is that more prestigious than being a part of DX which is one of the best stables of all time? If I were Billy Gunn, I'd sure as hell want to be inducted as a part of DX.

    The final point I want to make about this prestige issue is, isn't it more prestigious to headline a class of hall of famers? Actually it is, and let this clip prove it for you.

    [YOUTUBE]opu4R3UBEss[/YOUTUBE]

    Look at Steve Austin and look at the other inductees. The other ones look like extras in a movie set while Austin is struting around like a superstar.

    As I have already stated, there are stables that have made huge impact in the wrestling industry. DX is one of those stables. It is possible that they may headline a class of Hall of Famers some day. To return to that Billy Gunn example, what would be more prestigious for him? To go out there and have a segment the next night on WrestleMania and do a cross chop along with legends like HHH and HBK or enter to muted applause? Undoubtedly, being inducted as a part of DX will be more prestigious for him. Because DX may headline a class of HOFers. Billy Gunn, the singles wrestler, cannot, not in a million years.

    Why should they be included one at a time when the motive is to honor the stable? If they have achieved success as a part of a group, then they also deserve to be inducted as a group. Being inducted as a singles wrestler is not the same as being inducted as a stable. If you induct a wrestler as a singles performer, you are honoring his impact on the business. If you are inducting a stable you are not honoring the impact of each guy on the business, you are merely honoring the impact of the stable. They will be honored as singles wrestlers at a later stage.

    Also does this not mean that you are not against the induction of stables but you merely want to induct them all together?



    Like I said, you would not be wasting anything because Arn Anderson, Tully Blanchard and Barry Windham can all be inducted individually at a later stage because they have all had illustrious singles careers in their own right and it has not been stated anywhere that an induction as a stable bars them from being inducted as a singles performer.

    Look at Arn Anderson's career outside the Four Horsemen. He won tag team championships in Southeaster Championship Wrestling, Mid Atlantic Championship Wrestling, in WWF, and also in WCW as a part of the tag team, The Enforcers. He also won the WCW TV title. Is there anything to suggest that Arn will not be included as a singles performer at a later stage? Also the impact of Anderson on the business outside his time in the horsemen is very different from the impact of the horsemen on the business. Inducting the horsemen seperately would not be the same as inducting them all together as The Four Horsemen.



    Again man, same point here as well? Why does nWo being inducted have to overshadow the careers of Hulk, Nash or Hall when Hulk has already been honored for his contributions and Nash and Hall can be honored even once nWo has been honored?

    But what happens if only Hall and Nash are included? Hulk has already been included and including all three seperately is not equivalent to including the nWo. The nWo will be mentione by all three men along with the other things that these three guys have done but the fact is that nWo deserves it's own seperate induction for what it has done to the industry. The nWo was single handedly responsible for the Attitude Era as Vince would not have been forced to push the envelope had a fire not been lit up his ass by the nWo.

    Oh man same thing again.

    Meh. The point of inducting a stable into the HOF is honoring the stable and NOT the individual wrestlers who have been a part of the stable. It can be done at a later stage. But not including stables into the Hall of Fame would mean that these stables do not deserve this honor. Why is that? Just because they are stables? Also for the final time, I repeat, inducting the individual performers in the stable is not equivalent to inducting the stable because a stable is just a part of what the individual performer has done and hence it's contribution will not be fully honored if the individual performers are included and not the stable. As I have mentioned in my opening post the contribution of certain stables in pro wrestling has been immense and much different from the contribution of the individual performers. As such, they deserve their own, exclusive place under the sun.
     
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  8. Paralyzer Z

    Paralyzer Z Fuck honor

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    Take a look back at what I stated on shredding up the number of available inductees. Yes guys can be inducted twice as in the case of Ric Flair, in fact it may become a more frequent action to induct factions with Hall of Famer's that have already been inducted. However if that were to continue with repeat inductions such as Flair this year, wouldn't the Hall of Fame become overloaded with the same guy going in both as a part of a group and solo on different occasions? Just think about it for a second, look at how many stables (legendary stables) have been headed by an already Hall of Famer as of today. The Nation of Domination by The Rock, the nWo by Hulk Hogan, Edge and Christian to a certain extent, and Degeneration-X by Shawn Michaels. Most of these guys are already in the Hall of Fame, a second induction at a later stage for different reasons as you said is possible, but I think it would just be overkill. Just an excuse for filling up more spots since they are running out of legends to put in.

    That may be true in some cases like Billy Gunn, but another case like Hulk Hogan doesn't seems to fit right. Like I said before over-killing it. Look at how many different things the Hulkster can and most likely will be inducted for, his singles career (check), his nWo run, and hell throw in his mega-powers tag team. They were legendary were they not? The are plenty of other cases like that, more than can say for guys like Billy Gunn. Hell Shawn Michaels can be inducted for not only his singles career, but also like you said for DX, and maybe even the rockers just to throw it in there. That again is three separate entrees for him, even Bret Hart is still applicable to this situation.


    Again look at how many possibilities there are for more than one later stage when it comes to certain cases. Kane will be inducted one day, both his singles career and the Brothers of Destruction. An even better example is non other than Undertaker himself. His singles career, again the Brothers of Destruction, and the Ministry of Darkness/Corporate Ministry, maybe not as suitable as the other 2 choices but still possible. Point is that many superstars will probalby have multiple inductions, many have the probability of even more than that which I think it over doing it. A singles induction to me could be an all in one occasion.

    Also does this not mean that you are not against the induction of stables but you merely want to induct them all together?





    See above.




    Not equivalent? So you mean is say one day Kevin Nash is inducted into the Hall of Fame, that most of the reasons explained in the inevitable video package won't relate to the nWo? Stables can be honored in other ways than stable inductions. However that has already been argued several times by myself. The Hall of Fame is something to keep fresh without the same guys going in on more than one instance. You wan't more than the same guys going in for different reasons, more legends in separate entrees keeps it more interesting.
     
    #8
  9. Hulk Hogan's Brother

    Hulk Hogan's Brother Stop asking me what I'm gonna do!!!

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    809
    So let me get this for a second. You get that a guy may be inducted a number of times because he has been associated with more than one legendary thing and that according to you may be overkill. So, you are saying that this overkill should be avoided and once stables are included without honoring the members seperately, it will shred up the number of available legends. So what is your point here anyway, that there will be an overkill with multiple induction or the number of legends will be shred up with a single induction? Only one of them can be true, dude.

    Anyhow, I have already proven how there won't be a shredding up of the legends by inducting stables so I will only proceed to prove how inducting stables would not be an overkill. It would be an overkill only if the induction of a stable would have been the same as the induction of a stable featuring that stable, but that is not the case. Don't believe me, look at this video package that Flair got for himself in 2008.

    [YOUTUBE]q2HM4DXfI_M[/YOUTUBE]

    I mean I have not seen this for a while and I was really surprised to see that the Four Horsemen has not been mentioned even once by the WWE. There isn't even a single picture even of Flair making the iconic "4" sign of the horsemen. Which is the point I have been making all along. That the legacies of the horsemen are very different from that of Ric Flair. Ric Flair's longlevity has been honoured here. His in ring prowess, his charisma and how good he was as a heel has been honoured here. The fact that Four Horsemen were this iconic stable that made group warfare fashionable and were a precursor to great stables like nWo and DX has not been honoured here. That has been honoured here, in this video package that was made when the horsemen were inducted into the WWE Hall of Fame in 2012.

    [YOUTUBE]pcwbdVWOr8Y[/YOUTUBE]

    Overkill is really not a very good point, Paralyzer. It is like a pathetic excuse that a child gives for not doing his homework. This is the HALL OF FAME, not the Hall of the somewhat decent or even the very good. The operative word for the inclusion of any individual or stable should be FAME. The Four Horsemen, the nWo have achieved FAME and for that reason they should be included. Fuck, if Koko B. Ware deserves to be included once, then Ric Flair possibly deserves to be included five times. I do not see this as any problem.



    Well, I have already shown you the video package for Flair's induction. The four horsemen have not been honoured there. Here is the video package for Hulk Hogan, an nWo member in the Hall of Fame.

    [YOUTUBE]uSjl5xjLqok[/YOUTUBE]

    Let alone the nWo, there are no clips even of Hulk Hogan in fucking WCW. Is this the way you want to honor such a legendary stable?

    About freshness man, there is nothing I can say apart from the fact that most guys who will be inducted multiple times are legends. You do not grow tired of legends man. Hulk Hogan will get a mega pop every time he is included into the hall of fame be it as an individual, as a part of nWo or Mega Powers. The Hall of Fame will itself be enriched by the inclusion of stuff that has actually acquired fame as compared to the inclusion of guys like Koko B. Ware. I do not think that there is any problem.

    CONCLUSION: As I have already stated, the operative word for the inclusion of any one or any thing should be fame and stables are something that have achieved fame. It also makes sense to include these stables as a group because the point is to honor the association of men that has achieved fame. As has been proved, the inclusion of a stable is very different from the inclusion of a singles competitor who has featured in that stable at some point of his career.

    I think that most points that Paralyzer have made have been like excuses thrown by a child for some fault of his own. He agrees that stables have achieved distinction in the business but yet does not want them to be included for unfounded reasons like the shredding up of legends, overkill and the incredibly false assumption which states that singles inductions are always more prestigious than inductions as a part of any group. I believe I have successfully proved Paralyzer wrong at every point. Inducting stables into the hall of fame can only be a good idea in order to honor their unique contribution to this business. A reason not to include them does not exist.

    I rest my case.
     
    #9
  10. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    Ok, debating is closed in this thread and judging may begin.

    Nice work.
     
    #10
  11. CH David

    CH David A Jock That Loves Pepsi

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    All I can really say is wow.

    Clarity - Rattlesnake gets this. Both had what I asked for, but Rattlesnake did it better, and was more concise in his efforts.

    Point -Rattlesnake

    Punctuality - I'm going to give this point to Paralyzer. Quick draw was good.

    Point - Paralyzer Z

    Informative - Without question I've got to give this to Rattlesnake. Those videos you presented made me remember, or wish I were around, during the primes of Hall of Famers, especially guys like the Four Horsemen. Fucking bravo. Paralyzer I'm not taking away from your Wikipedia stuff. I use it and enjoy it myself. But I laughed quite a bit when using Flair and Arn's Worst Worked Match in there as well.

    Point - Rattlesnake

    Persuasion - Work was done in this one. Rattlesnake, in my opinion, just ran a train over Paralyzer on this topic. The videos were the icing on the cake, especially the Horsemen one. If someone is inducted as part of a faction it is because of their contribution to the business/company they were in while together. The Horsemen represent this fact incredibly. Rattlesnake showed that so well.

    Points - Rattlesnake

    CH David scores this Rattlesnake 4, Paralyzer Z 1.
     
    #11
  12. FunKay the Inevitable

    FunKay the Inevitable People Like Me, We Don't Play

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    Clarity: Rattlesnake's was ever so slightly cleaner and clearer. Spacing was nice.

    Punctuality: Paralyzer Z was indeed faster, making him the point winner.

    Informative: Both men brought elements to the table that helped immensely, and could've been used in other debates, and taken the points, but Rattlesnake incorporated videos to further/back up his points.

    Persuasion: Yeah, Rattlesnake showed here why he's a force to be reckoned with inside this tournament. I wouldn't have pegged him myself but he dominated, Ezekiel Jackson style.

    FunKay Scores It: Rattlesnake: 4, Paralyzer Z: 1
     
    #12
    Mustang Sally likes this.
  13. Nate DaMac

    Nate DaMac Fuck erbody but me

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    Clarity- It's really a toss up here, but I'll go with Rattlesnake. I liked the way he opened and his closer was damn good.

    Point- Rattlesnake

    Punctuality- Z was faster. :shrug:

    Point- Paralyzer Z

    Informative- I'm not a huge fan of copy and paste jobs from Wikipedia, though I completely understand the method behind it. It just makes it seem like you've done a lot of research when in all honesty, you probably didn't read half of what you posted. Just try not to be so transparent when copying and pasting. Snakey wins for his video presentation.

    Point- Rattlesnake

    Persuasion- I don't see how anyone could go against Rattlesnake here. He thoroughly attacked the opposition from every angle imaginable.

    Point- Rattlesnake.

    Nate scores it Rattlesnake 4, Paralyzer Z 1.
     
    #13
  14. SavageTaker

    SavageTaker Everybody Has A Price!

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    Clarity of debate - Both men did a great job here, but Rattlesnake was a bit better. He gets the point here.

    Punctuality
    - Paralyzer was quicker in getting his rebuttals up so he gets the point here.

    Informative
    - Both men brought in a lot of information and used it. The info you guys brought in was relevant to your points which is exactly what I was asking for. Great job guys. The thing that put Rattlesnake over the edge though was the videos he posted. So he gets the point here.

    Persuasion
    - Great debate guys. Really enjoyed reading it and it's tough to choose a winner but I think Rattlesnake ended up persuading me more. He mentioned that just because someone is inducted as a faction doesn't mean that they can't be inducted by themselves either. He also brought in great examples such as Billy Gunn and DX. I loved Billy when I was younger, but Rattle was right: he can't headline a hall of fame class by himself. But as a member of DX, he could. Same thing goes for Scott Hall and the nWo. Paralyzer, you did a great job so don't get yourself down over this loss. I'm sure next time you'll do better and I do hope to see you two go at it again.

    Rattlesnake: 4 points, Paralyzer: 1 point.
     
    #14
  15. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    Congratulations to Rattlesnake who defeats Paralyzer Z by a score of 16-4 (SavageTaker's judgment wasn't even needed. Rattlesnake clinched in three judgments.) He will move onto Winner's bracket #14 to face The Killjoy while Paralyzer Z moves down to Loser's bracket #10 to face hatehabsforever.

    Nice work, guys.
     
    #15
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