Why we don't matter

[whoopin' ass]

Not so much a question as an observation that really hit home today. We complain about the wwe - poor tv product, not pushing new guys, etc - and we keep going back to the same main argument that they would do better business if they did the things we said. Today it was announced that wwe has a deal with PEZ. Doesn't sound that impressive but remember that more than 3 billion PEZ candies are consumed in the US alone each year and PEZ is known around the world. Signing a deal with them is pretty good. But that is the key reason why wwe doesn't have to listen to us anymore - they are better off not listening.

Think of some of the deals wwe has made over the last few years. These are deals they would have never been able to make back in the Attitude Era but when you tone things down and have more cartoony characters like Cena, suddenly wwe is very marketable. These extra incomes more than make up for anything wwe might lose from low ppv buys or people like me who no longer support them financially. I always knew it was more about the deals then the wrestling but the PEZ announcement really made it hit today - wwe wants to be Disney and are willing to sacrafice the in-ring product just to become a brand they can market. That is also why a TNA, ROH, and any other company will never come close to touching them - they are trying to sell an in-ring product, not a brand.

Thoughts? Like i said, we all knew this was what was happening but it is now so obvious, you can't even say wwe is a sports entertainment company anymore - the guys are just human models for the action figures they want to sell at Walmart.

 

[That N Word]

What do you expect them to of care about money. Hell, the Attitude Era as a whole was about money. If WWE didn't make money it wouldn't be a promotion. Meaning no Raw or Smackdown meaning no wrestling/sport or entertainment.

And to your point " That is also why a TNA, ROH, and any other company will never come close to touching them - they are trying to sell an in-ring product, not a brand. "And how well is that working our for them. TNA is damn near out of business and not many people know what a ROH is.

Its not just about being a wrestling promotion. If that's the case it would be no need to televised. They need to have money to pay the wrestlers and to be a top promotion.

 

[ASKane]

The deals with companies like PEZ and Mattel explain why they should stay PG and that our belief that WWE should change isn't listened to. But deals with kid friendly or targeting products doesn't explain why WWE should ignore fans on their thoughts with guys like Cesaro and Ambrose. PG makes them sponsorship money but pushing or not pushing guys is what impacts network subs, ticket sales and merch sales. So they should stay PG and ignore our displeasure with that but it doesn't benefit them to ignore our opinion on who to push

 

[Nada]

The problem with your theory is that you are speaking as if WWE was not making any money in the Attitude Era. It was not some sort of indie promotion who thrived on the bloodlust from the fans, they made a ton of money during the Attitude Era.

Game of Thrones, Lost, Breaking Bad, The Sopranos are all mature TV products that do/did at least as many ratings as WWE Raw does today. And they sell shitload of merch, dvd/blu ray boxes, and earn a astounding amount of money on ads that are played during those shows. Despite the fact that people are being killed, raped, mauled, hanged, eviscerated in a show like Game of Thrones.

WWF Attitude at its most "attitude" is not more violent or contains more nudity than GoT has today. And GoT has a huge fanbase, that also includes tons of of women.


The idea that you have to have a "safe" show to attract advertisers is not true. The difference is that WWF Attitude in the late 90s was a very risque show, because it was compared to Tim the Toolman Taylor, The Nanny and the like. Today shows are more broad and more violent. X Files in the 90s was edgy because Dana Scully would perform a autopsy, which was considered gruesome, today that is seen in every show.


"They got money from PEZ!" - That is a great thing...for the short term. Just like having RAW be a 3 hour show is a great thing.. for the short term. However the long term ramifications will be harsh if not completely deadly for this company.

Remember when people complained about too many former stars and part timers headlining Manias? And they were told to shut up because they wanted to see Rock vs Cena II and Hunter vs Taker II and HBK vs Taker II? Well that is finally coming home to roost now. Nobody on the WWE roster except John Cena can possible headline a Wrestlemania in a 50.000 plus stadium.

That is the problem of short term gain, i am sure the money Pez gives them will help them out, but long term a soulless product will make it impossible for young guys to get over. And at Wrestlemania 37 they will bring out part timers John Cena to fight part timer Randy Orton.

 

[rbv13]

When many fans and individuals see WWE they think World Wrestling Entertainment. The hard truth is the actual company themselves no longer see it or want it presented that way. WWE are simply call letters for an Entertainment Production Brand. WWE is a social media juggernaut, a financially sound studio division, they are about community and promoting Super Stars & Divas in a multitude of forums. They just happen to produce programming about sports entertainment/pro wrestling. WWE has a vast number of items on their plate and the in ring product must tie in and support those other endeavors. I think many "wrestling" fans just want more than what the company currently is.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

It's always been about making money. I've said many times that WWE is a business and doesn't operate like some fantasy football league. Contrary to popular belief, WWE is actually making more money now than they were during the Attitude Era. During the height of the AE, WWE's revenue was in the $200 million range and now it's nearly $600 million; even adjusting for inflation, WWE still has a much greater overall revenue as $200 million circa 1998 would only be about $346 million today.

Like everyone else, I have my complaints about WWE and voice them; I know it's never going to be perfect and I accept that. However, we're what's generally coined by various dirt sheet writers as the Internet Wrestling Community, or the IWC, and the "IWC" makes up only a pretty small minority of WWE's audience. Now even though just about every WWE viewer has access to and uses the internet to find out what's going on, that doesn't make them one of the "IWC" because your average fan doesn't obsess over just about every little angle, storyline, match ending, push, non-push, etc. the way we do; I'm not saying that to put us internet fans down, it's just the truth because that's exactly what we do.

Now does that mean that there aren't some genuinely plausible, good ideas that internet fans come up with? Of course not because there are some that're entertaining...at least on paper and at least to us. Odds are, some of those ideas would resonate with some of the more average and casual fans as well. One thing that we do forget, and I'm guilty of this sometimes too, is that our various fantasy booking scenarios don't have any sort of negative consequences. For all the griping we do on Vince, some of which is completely justified in my book, potentially millions upon millions of dollars rests with the decisions he makes. For every idea that we as true internet wrestling fans like, there may be a thousand more casual fans who think it sucks. If it's true that the "IWC" only makes up about 10%, or less, of WWE's audience, then of course WWE isn't going to specifically cater to that 10%. With that being said, I'm of the opinion that Vince is out of touch with more average fans as well, he's generally been out of touch with internet fans for years, and I think it's really starting to come back to bite WWE in the ass and may well continue to do so. After all, ratings are slipping for Raw and it can't just be blamed on the fall television season because it's become a rarity for Raw, not counting DVR viewership, to average 4 million viewers per episode here in the United States and it's been that way for over a year. At the same time, however, when you look at other aspects of the business including advertisers, merchandise, attendance at TV tapings, ppvs & house shows, television rights fees from both national & international sources, the slow but continuing growth of the WWE Network, etc. and factor it all in with the big picture, then WWE certainly doesn't seem to be hurting.

 

[whoopin' ass]

Thanks for all the replies. I don't disagree that the Attitude Era was about making money too - obviously any business is about that. I think the difference though was they didn't compromise the product in order to make deals down the road. The in ring product and story were still important as that is what brought the fans back to buy the tickets, etc. Today, how much does story matter when you are aiming at a kid market? They want the larger than life Cena's, they want high fliers like Neville even though they will never make him champ because the are great for other products - action figures, characters in video games, etc. That's why I think they don't listen to people - we are looking at the matches and shows and try to make them as good as possible where as for wwe, those are just part of the wwe product. We may have a good idea for an angle but how will that angle help wwe secure a deal with another company? Daniel Bryan is a great example - he is great in the ring but not the most marketable guy out there. We want him to be the top guy yet wwe is pushing others because it is easier to sell a Cena or even a Roman Reigns to a potential business partner then him.

It sounds so obvious - wwe wants to make money, always have and it is absolutely true. However they seem to be willing to let their core product die in order to make deals. And who can blame them when it has been working for them? I just think they are not seeing that cliff ahead of them and realize that right now, they still have their past to use. What happens in 10 years when no one wants to buy the DVDs of stars from 2000 on and the current crop are just not connecting with fans and therefore make no money for the advertisers and other business partners.

 

[scomvp316]

Of course we matter and thats why VKM has been flipping out recently because of the very low RAW ratings If we don't watch his ad revenues drop considerably and then he will either tweak the product more to a PG-13 style or Comcast will cancel all of WWE programming affiliated with NBCU

Only a few sponsors WWE is locked into from a style of programming stand point

In the AE he didn't need as many sponsors because the OE vs TR was much lower than what it is today with all of the sponsors

 

[Radical]

We don't matter that, it's true. By we, I guess, I am referring to the possibly 10% of WWE fans who would be considered part of the IWC.

WWE is simply NOT trying to fantasy book to please the IWC. In fact, they shouldn't, because it's impossible.

WWE could push Cesaro to the moon tomorrow and a portion of the IWC would be excited but another portion of the IWC would be complaining it is being done wrong and he doesn't 'entertain me' or 'interest me.' So you really can't win with all the IWC.

I've said this before, the WWE is a variety show! It's basically like your America's Got Talent except it does come with some baggage of "it's guys in their underwear pretending to beat each other up", which automatically turns off a number of people from even appreciating the athleticism and the comedy.

That's the other thing. It's important not to take the WWE too seriously. While I certainly enjoy when a feud or storyline is presented seriously, like Lesnar and Cena preparing for each other or Kevin Owens vs Sami Zayn in NXT, I realize there is always room for a little light-heartedness (not a word lol) because even a pretty intense action movie can have a few moments of light-hearted fun or comedy.

Because WWE is a variety show and some people don't quite seem to accept that, it means a number of times throughout a show fans will be uninterested and perhaps turned off by what they see if it is boring, too cheesy or not impressive enough. Solid example is Santino Marella. Many fans would cringe when he was on the screen talking, backstage or in a match but guess what? A good portion of the audience loved him and was entertained by him. As ridiculous as his Cobra finisher was it was entertaining to many and that's what mattered to WWE and Vince so he was successful.

I have been at fault at this before, I'm not saying I'm free of charge. I often nitpick when I really should just be saying "Is what I'm seeing right now entertaining regardless of what I think 'should happen' or who WWE 'should be using' right now?" If I can understand the reasons for why it is happening then I should just live with it. If I don't like it? Change to something else. Maybe come back if I want to see something different later.

One of the things I often nitpick about is ring psychology or selling. I don't like when a match ends with an impactful finisher and they get the 1-2-3 and the opponent is laid out on the mat but just because there is a run-in or talking segment directly after the match the opponent who was 'knocked out' is sometimes, within SECONDS of getting pinned, rolls quickly out of the ring! It annoys me because it shows lack of attention to detail and credibility. Same thing when wrestlers work a body part and sell it a bit throughout the match but then storm back USING that body part like it is okay and even use it for their finisher with relatively no problem. It pretty much kills the credibility of the match. But what can I do? It's been happening like this for years with a few excepts of wrestlers and matches that really do take attention to detail. I might as well just accept it and, in fact, probably just laugh at it.

WWE is still making a lot of money and yes, maybe TV ratings are down and they don't have amazing attendance to all their shows and tapings, but they have enough. They aren't truly hurting. They aren't truly hurting because they have so many different revenue streams if one is a little low probably another one is getting better.

Just accept that they aren't going to do everything you love all the time. Even great, well renowned shows like Dexter, Breaking Bad, Big Bang Theory and Game of Thrones have had fans come and go. They've had hardcore followings for seasons and then made choices and changes that drove fans away, perhaps some new fans joined. That's just the nature of the entertainment business.

The choice every viewer makes is basically: Is this show interesting to me now? Is it WORTH my time now or later (watching it on DVR, DVD or online)?

My answer? I find WWE programming relatively interesting because I still appreciate a certain amount of the athleticism, the well done characters, the presentation and action. However, with SO MUCH programming and my work demanding much of my time, I simply do not have a large enough combination of interest AND time to watch the show regularly (not even semi-regularly). I will occasionally check YouTube for match highlights and maybe go online to see parts of a show but that's about it. I don't have the Network (don't have time to see anything on there, really, if I did), I don't buy their merchandise (aside from the video game, but haven't bought since 2k14), I don't get tickets to their shows. So with that said, I try not to take it too seriously because even if it was great, or my definition of great every time, I wouldn't really have more time or money I'd want to invest in them. I just enjoy a few parts and that's pretty much good enough for me.

 

[rmp0012002]

It's always been about making money, it's a business. Today they are just moving more towards kids because they are a large but easy demographic to sell to. What today's kids want their parents will buy for them. They aren't at the age to understand reality and they see wrestlers as heroes. You can't sell a product to the majority of adults that isn't real but to kids you can. Know the demographic of your product and work if for all you can.

 

[stingray11214]

You want to matter? I am going to show you how you would matter. On October 24th, I will be going, dragging my Roman Reigns-worshiping wife, to Rahway, NJ. What is there on that date? Pro Wrestling Syndicate's October show featuring RVD vs John Morrison. That is how you would matter. Attend Indy shows. Put your hard earned money into PROFESSIONAL WRESTLING instead of "Sports Entertainment"! If Stamford keeps seeing places like PWS, New York Wrestling Connection, East Coast Championship Wrestling and other Indy promotions draw crowds of 500-3000 per show, WWE will be asking itself what is wrong. Why are the Indies taking away our money? Trips understands this. VKM is too arrogant. They may end up learning the hard way.

 

[whoopin' ass]

good point stingray. That's why I have issues when people say they hope TNA goes out of business. If you are a wrestling fan and you lived through WCW, you know what happens when another company goes out of business so saying you want TNA(or any other company) to go out of business makes we wonder if you are a wrestling fan or a wwe fan. Even if the other company is bad, it is still an alternative and that is what wrestling needs. It's like anything else, you don't need to support a product you don't like so go to an indy event instead of a wwe event.

 

[Mustang Sally]

....and we keep going back to the same main argument that they would do better business if they did the things we said.

The problem is that fans have all different opinions on the same subjects. Some of us like Seth Rollins, some don't. Some think he's being used correctly, others say he isn't. Some want him to stay a heel, others say he should be a face. Many enjoy the programs he's been involved in, others detest them.

Fan frustration often emanates from the absolute nature of their belief. If they like Seth Rollins, they can't believe that anyone wouldn't. We see tons of that on this forum, no?

Now, how is WWE supposed to please everyone? Whatever course they take, someone's not going to like it.

As to the other point made by the OP, of course WWE is a business.....and they need to make money to please the stockholders of the corporation. While many of us (including myself) would love to see them cater to an older audience and go back to some of the features of the 90's, the fact is they sell more merchandise to the kids......which not only puts more bucks in the pockets of the investors, but also (hopefully) paves the way for these kids to become the fans of tomorrow who buy tickets and sweatshirts for their kids.

And so it goes.