Why the faces are having trouble getting over with the live crowd!

Matt7584

Occasional Pre-Show
Lets take a look at the current relevant faces in the WWE.. Cena, Bryan, punk, Ziggler , RVD, Christian, and Cody Rhodes. How many guys here are actually over? The answer is 3. RVD, Cena, and Bryan. I'm the biggest Punk fan out here but he's got problems that I will discuss. Why are those 3 over because they connect to the live crowd. Punk and Ziggler connect with IWC because we know their talented and we follow them. To the casual fan they are still wondering is he face or a heel? Their promos are heel like and they do nothing with the crowd. If you think SCSA should kicked this guys ass then give me a hell ya. The point is Steve knew the fans were important to his promos. Then he switched to what? Daniel Bryan is over because of his Yes chants, he's connected to the fan base. Punk and Ziggler don't. The reality is that fans put money in their pockets and they need to "pander" to them. Punk had people with his demands but that was to an older generation. I'm going to kick myself for saying this but at times R-truth gets better love crowd reactions with his what's up than punk and Ziggler. My formula is connect to the crowd somehow with a catch phrase or hand symbol like RVD and you will get a real ovation.

Do you think I'm wrong or do you have different formula?
 
Wait a second....you're honestly trying to say that CM Punk isn't genuinely over with the crowd??? Not to quote the Miz intentionally but, really??? That observation pretty much kills any credibility to your argument all by itself. When you watch Raw, SD! or ppvs and see thousands of people chanting Punk's name at the top of their lungs or hear this loud roar of approval from those same people once his entrance music hits & he walks out onto the stage, can you not hear them??? Sorry man, but you're absolutely delusional if you're honestly going to say that R-Truth sometimes gets better crowd reactions than CM Punk. If CM Punk was someone who was really only over with the IWC then he most certainly wouldn't have been the longest reigning World Champion in WWE for more than a quarter century. Vince McMahon doesn't give you a strong push if you're someone who doesn't connect significantly with the majority of WWE fans. The IWC is a minority, a pretty small minority at that, so it's natural that Vince isn't going to cater to them. Otherwise, wrestlers like Shelton Benjamin or Evan Bourne would have been multiple time WWE Champions long before now as they're two internet darlings.

As for your "formula", you think that a catchphrase or hand gesture is seriously going to get you a "real ovation"? Here's the thing with RVD, his hand gesture is the very limit of his charisma and personality. RVD is pretty entertaining inside the ring and his use of various flashy high spots has been a key to his popularity. However, if you're suggesting that his popularity with fans outstrips that of someone like CM Punk, especially because of something as generally trivial as a his signature gesture, then I don't know what shows you're watching.

It takes more than a catchphrase to get you over as a babyface or a heel for that matter. If you want fans to connect then, the VAST majority of the time, there has to be some level of depth to their character and they have to show that via personality. It's really why promos are so important in pro wrestling. If you have lousy skills on the mic, then you're most likely not going to make it as a major player in a top organization. Every once in a blue moon, you'll have someone who isn't good at promos rise to be a top guy, such as RVD or Rey Mysterio, as they've been able to forge some level of repoire` with fans despite having poor mic skills. Those guys, however, are the exceptions to the rule rather than the standard.

When it comes to popularity on the level of someone like Stone Cold Steve Austin or The Rock, it's like catching lightning in a bottle. It's extremely rare and doesn't happen very often. The fact that Austin & The Rock showed up with the right sort of characters at the right time a major factor in their success just as it was for Hulk Hogan well over a decade earlier. You're also simply not going to have some wrestlers get as much of a pop as others. Christian, for example, has always gotten solid responses from fans whether he's a face or a heel. Sometimes those responses are more pronounced depending on what sort of program he's in and who he's working it with.
 
Here's the thing with RVD, his hand gesture is the very limit of his charisma and personality.

That's true, and the way he's been getting over is with his work in the ring, which makes him kind of unique in a form of entertainment in which it's questionable how many of the folks in attendance at a live show are actually fans of pro wrestling. I think many of them (most of them?) are out for an evening of entertainment and don't care a bit for a skillfully executed wrestling match. They like RVD because he hits spots.....it's something they can understand.

Daniel Bryan is hugely over at this moment, and he's got two assets: a simple, insanely successful one-word chant for the crowd to jump on, and superior ring skills. In this way, he's got something everyone in the crowd can appreciate.

But don't be fooled; Daniel hits as many spots as RVD; he just has a wider arsenal. But for all the folks on this forum who have criticized John Cena for using the same repertoire over and over, analyzing a Daniel Bryan match might force them to reach the same conclusion. He's doing the same things again and again; it's just that he's a little guy who's got their attention at the moment. In the early part of his WWE career, before the "Yes!" phase and the byplay with Kane, he was a technically superior ring practitioner who wasn't over with the crowd and the company even had him losing to people like Sin Cara because of it.

Christian? It's true he isn't really over....and it's because he has no inspiring pre-match routine that captures the audience, nor is his wrestling particularly inspiring. Understand, he's good in the ring, but not in a way that excites an audience that doesn't care about the fine points of pro wrestling. Christian is more to the taste of fans of real wrestling; it's one of the reasons a lot of people on this forum like him.

For a face to get over, he's got to have a compelling gimmick....which is essentially what a bad guy needs, too.
 
I think you have a decent point about fan involvement but your examples are way off. Punk is very much over, he just plays better in certain places. It would help him if he had some catch phrase that the average/casual/young/pre-pubescent fans could grab on to but it seems that wouldn't fit his character. It would also help if he looked different and stopped changing his hair and would roll with being a heel or face for a little bit longer than what we've seen over the past two years.

In general, fans like the predictability of a catch phrase and to be involved, it connects them more to a wrestler. The "Yes!" stuff has been incredibly important in getting DB more of a following. It simple and more distinguishable than just clapping. The biggest example that I can think of where a wrestler got over with catch phrases was Road Dogg. He was masterful and made more of a career with his repetition than anyone. The Rock and Stone Cold used catch phrases and fan involvement but also brought good looks, good stories, excellent matches, and other promo skills to be the some of the best guys in the business.

But that stuff is not necessary. It helps and would help a guy like Ziggler or Kofi but it is not necessary. Cena and Hogan have done well and their catch phrases aren't exactly a sing along.
 
But don't be fooled; Daniel hits as many spots as RVD; he just has a wider arsenal. But for all the folks on this forum who have criticized John Cena for using the same repertoire over and over, analyzing a Daniel Bryan match might force them to reach the same conclusion. He's doing the same things again and again; it's just that he's a little guy who's got their attention at the moment. In the early part of his WWE career, before the "Yes!" phase and the byplay with Kane, he was a technically superior ring practitioner who wasn't over with the crowd and the company even had him losing to people like Sin Cara because of it.

Ludicrous. Daniel Bryan has a series of go-to moves, as does any wrestler. By design, it creates a familiarity with the crowd and engages them. However, he knows exactly when and how to switch it up. To compare his in-ring work with John Cena's moveset is a slap in the face.
And I don't even think Cena is that bad. He can go when he wants to. But to not see the difference is daft.
 
Last time I saw R-Truth come out, he got nearly no reaction. CM Punk is plenty over. Maybe he'd be cheered a bit more if he wasn't so recently a heel in high-profile programs with the Rock and the Undertaker. He was doing some pretty awful stuff to sell his match with the Undertaker.

People seem to complain about "the five moves of doom" whenever they don't like a guy. I know a guy who doesn't like Bret's work so that's how he criticizes him. But he likes Flair who has plenty of signature spots, though most of his are selling, and repetitive offense. I think both guys are great. People may criticize Cena for the moves of doom, but that's not really why people don't like him. People don't realize what they really don't like about him, and they latch on something tangible like his move set. As has been stated, Cena has shown he can go well enough when he wants to. That means that most of the time, he sticks to a stale formula and mails in his performance. Add to that his lack of quality selling at times, and being booked in situations that have made many people look like chumps unnecessarily. Daniel Bryan may have his signature spots, but he goes out there with high energy, he gives his all, and he puts together a match in which his spots will vary rather than just going through the motions until he can hit his big moves and call it a night.
 
So it seems like what you're saying here is that the fans are so dumb that a simple catch phrase will get someone over with the crowd and elevate them to main event status? How many times do you hear fans chanting "Fella?" If this was the case then Kofi Kingston would be a main event draw as people chant boom for him. It's not that simple. Fans connect with certain wrestlers because they have either the larger than life persona many people wish they had or they seem like the common guy to relate to or in the very rare case they respect the ability of a wrestler and then because of their progression as a character. Cena is over with the crowd because of years of work with funny promos (we all bought into his rap gimmick when he started) and his eventual elevation to mythical Hogan status. People connect with Bryan because of 1) his in-ring work and 2) his connection to the regular person (if you look at how he started to where he is now you will see a pretty incredible transformation). Ziggler is mostly over with the hardcore fans and does draw some reaction from the casual fan but to them something is still missing as his character hasn't evolved in any sort of way. Punk is more of an acquired taste as his appearance and attitude aren't for everyone. Del Rio, Sheamus, Ryback, and so many others who have been given the chance to succeed at the main event level never progressed in any form from their original character that they became stale and truly show no reason for investing time in them as fans. Yes Ryback was booked poorly by management but his character only had one endgame if he was booked correctly and that was losing a match (Goldberg faded quickly after losing his first match too). The Wyatt family is appealing because we have no clue where their characters are going in the long run. There are many avenues for them to take and we are all interested to see what is next. The Shield is up in the air because they are currently stuck in limbo and need to be given a feud.
So basically what this shows is that a catchphrase isn't what gets guys over and makes them interesting. RVD put on some of the craziest matches in history and will forever be remembered for that. Cena and Bryan have changed so much from when they started that they have connected with the fans on a deeper level. It is all about the character and progression of that character that draws fans to watch certain guys every week. Simply giving a guy a phrase to say does not connect them with the fans, otherwise Fandango would be challenging Cena for the title. You have to be the common man that people can get behind or become someone of mythical stature or have such incredible in-ring work that people cannot ignore you. If you can't do this then a catchphrase will do absolutely nothing.
 
Why can't you guys read what I actually wrote. I'm addressing the relevant faces, not heels and not midcarders. Of course a catchphrase song get you over but Ziggler and punk basically ignore the crowd and need their name chanted to get a pop. I do watch wwe programming and I love punk but he has never gotten the Bryan yes pop ever. He doesn't know how to connect with the crowd. Talk to them and appreciate that they Are putting money in your pocket. Btw jack hammer punk was heel for most of that 434 day title reign so your logic against my point makes no sense. I'm still waiting for a solution not ripping my clear point.
 
It depends on where the event is taking place. For the "smarter" crowds then someone like Ziggler will get a huge reaction; whereas; Sheamus would get boo'd. In some places it is the complete opposite.

If you are looking at it comparatively then you are an idiot. If you think there should be a blanket reaction for all faces then there isn't something quite right with you. Not every single guy can get a reaction that Cena, Bryan, Austin, The Rock and Hogan can get. It is a skill just like ring or mic work. That is what makes Cena so great: he can get a reaction of some kind anywhere he goes.

It is a bit harsh to say that Punk/Ziggler don't get a reaction. I actually think Punk gets a good reaction just not in the same league as Cena or Bryan which is to be expected. Ziggler is doing ok but it could be better - the feud with AJ will help him become a top face.
 
Lets put to the side guys like Cena and even Orton, and other guys who come up a lot in discussions such as Austin, Rock, and Hogan. Through a mix of timing, development and just sheer talent in one way or another, these guys have broken through the ceiling and have earned and demanded the reactions they receive whenever they are on screen. I know there will b eyebrows raised about Orton but ill clarify him a lil later on. A lot of the points u brought up were valid but less important than the 2 factors im going to state as the most important to garnering crowds reactions. They are in no particular order: 1) the Push and 2) the storyline. Now its commonsense but ill state it just this once, that the wrestler involved needs to have some sort of talent and/or abiltiy whether on the mic or in the ring (both is a bonus). A character involved in a push usually means the storyline is built or already building around him. He is thrown into the spotlight in what should be a meaningful story and if done correctly he is either cheered or booed depending on the crowds feelings for him. I would usually say depending on whether hes a face or heel,but that doesnt seem to matter as much anymore. My point can better be argued using examples than it could be just by explaining the concept of it. 2 years ago Punk drops his infamous pipe bomb and is catapulted into the spotlight and a storyline which had already developed with Cena. Because of his ability on the mic, his ability in the ring, his storyline with Cena, he was put in a position where the crowd absolutely loved to cheer him. His reactions were great. 2 years ago Daniel Bryan was lingering somewhere on the card often overshawdoed by other storylines and pushes around him. Look at him now. Pretty much the same guy from 2 years back he is now involved in a push and a storyline with Cena and he is extremely over. I know a lot of people will argue that he was over before this push and before this storyline but because of this push and because of this storyline, he has remained as hot as he is now and the ceiling is growing! Look at Ziggler now for example. Has a following. Gets that push. Cashes in his MITB for the title. Great reactions. To no fault of his own hes injured and when he returns yeah they try n pick up where they left off but it hasnt worked because lets face it, the storyline hes involved in with Big E, Aj, and Kaitlin is lackluster. His reactions have fizzled a bit because his storyline right now is less than thrilling and his push has somewhat been stalled. Back to Orton. It seems to me that whether hes a heel or face hes able to garner reactions. I cant remember him being in a meaningful storyline in over a year yet he still gets crowd reactions. Hes finally doing something now that he won MITB so we will see where that storyline goes, but I included him because even tho his storylines have been cheap over the past year or maybe even 2, he still gets those reactions. One more example...Ryback. Proves u dont have to have that look to get over. He gets a push, it works at first. Than they throw him into a storyline with Cena as this wimp heel and completely destroys any of his momentum and credibility because the storyline and booking of him was terrible. This proves that all pushes dont work out peaches n cream. Sometimes it seems the best push and best storyline involves wrestlers who have slowly climbed that ladder and develop a following first, but the booking of them is most crucial in whether they succeed and hear those reactions
 
i believe the best way for a face to intially get over is to have a good over heel that every fan wants to see get defeated.. then add that to his ring work, his comeback fire, believe-ability, look, charisma, trademark gestures ( the diamond hand made ddp)

remember when bryan danielson first came onto wwe tv... his "pro" was The Miz, it built up to every fan wanting to bryan do something and that was defeat Miz, get his revenge, this theory does not always mean the face has to win the match or the feud, its more of the build.. the best way to get a face Over is to use an already over Heel.

some faces need to adapt over time, like zack ryder had a great singles run, but he is growing out his hair and i know has plans to form a face tag team..
sum1 like Kofi needs a change BADD... lets say Kofi starts feud with dean ambrose..
while dean is wrestling, kofi should have a 30 second promo come on the tv screen during a rest hold telling every1 what his plans are. " i'm training hard, and i'm coming to beat you and take the US Title back." Lose a match or two against ambrose with atleast 1 or 2 from cheating..

a face needs a over heel to get over..

curt axel cant help any babyfaces, BUT Paul Heyman and Curt Axel can!!

Now look at Cody Rhodes and Damien Sandow.. i know cody has been around, but he is over right now because of a good build with Damien Sandow is very over!
but Cody needs to shave that stupid mustache to me i associate that with his heel gimmick... but thats just a personal nitpick of mine, stache or not he will be MORE over as a BabyFace once this feud with Damien Sandow ends... good build, good fun interactions ( classic scene ala Rock/Austin 97 ic belt in water!! )
Rhodes needs to lose @ summerslam, then win either one or 2 ppvs later..

i have another awesome idea for a heel to turn face, find a heel who is floating who is in normal shape, dress him in sin cara mask and gear.. the dark lighting and arm spandex and long tights & mask will help... after he has an upset win defeating an over heel like rollins or axel&heyman.. take off the mask and cut a cool promo..

it changed Miz's career...
speaking of MIZ he needs to be a heel so badd and i think he would be suited best to start a 4 man stable, with an enforcer and a solid tag team..

sorry i vented my feelings for alotta guys!!

my bottom line

a face gets over when working with an already over Heel.
 
Daniel Bryan doesn't do the same moves in his matches. In the WWE, they only give you a short arsenal to work with. If you watch his indy matches, he'd wrestle for close to an hour inventing moves as he goes along..they only have him wrestle for 10 mins or less in the WWE and he has to hit certain spots and they have to be his signature moves, and he has to incorporate them into his short match because that's what they require. But if he was in an ironman match against someone, you'd see moves you'd never see before, he's a technical genius. He just does what the backstage officials tell him to do which is what moves to use and when to use them in spots, if he had it his way he'd use all 1,000 of his holds. Then you'd see him differently.
 
2 years ago Punk drops his infamous pipe bomb and is catapulted into the spotlight and a storyline which had already developed with Cena. Because of his ability on the mic, his ability in the ring, his storyline with Cena, he was put in a position where the crowd absolutely loved to cheer him. His reactions were great. 2 years ago Daniel Bryan was lingering somewhere on the card often overshawdoed by other storylines and pushes around him. Look at him now.
 
Daniel Bryan and CM Punk are over as faces because they have a certain edge to them that connects to the fans. Problem with recent faces the WWE Tries to build up it's either forcing natural heels to be faces (The Miz and Del Rio) or Vanilla (Sheamus, Kofi Kingston etc) and when Vanilla I mean your prototypical good guy.

That's the problem I see now. Back in the Attitude Era faces were anti-heroes, trash talking, and loud mouth personalities. Now faces have gone back to the pre-attitude era periods where most faces this clean cut personality. Comparing the two, which kind face would most people cheer for? Which also explains why Batman is more popular than Superman these days.
 
For a lack of a better way of stating it...I think the reason faces have such trouble fully getting over is because there are no TRUE heels left. Guys like Del Rio and Swagger don't get heat. They pick up some standard boos but there is no true emotional reason for the crowd to vehemently root against them.

I am a admitted Cena hater but all the times in his career where the "Super Cena" angle worked was when there were credible heels. Orton and Legacy for example worked great against Cena. Three against one. Still the super man would come out victorious. It doesn't work against a bunch of nobodies like Nexus or against an unbelievable idiot like Ryback.

The closest thing they have going right now is Punk vs. Lesnar. They have really stuck true to the Lesnar mercenary "big event" persona. He is a tangible heel that draws heat with Heyman. I think after next weeks RAW and another 3-on-1 type deal with Heyman/Lesnar/Axel ganging up on Punk I think you've got a clear cut face vs. heel main event to couple with the Cena/Bryan love fest.
 
Faces don't get over with the crowd because this is an age where the fans aren't stupid. They can choose to like/cheer whoever they want and the cheap pop tricks of faces won't work so easily these days.
 

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