Who's The Better Wrestler?

[figure4]

I respect your points, and I think that this is the type of discussion the forum has been missing for a while.

Although I must say that HBK was the man in 96 but 94-95 Bret was the man, 97 Undertaker was the man and 98 Stone Cold was the man. And actually 96-97 the nWo was the end all-be all in wrestling, honestly. Ok, I promise I'll shut up now.

 

[blowjoe5]

this shouldnt have even been posted
Cena=pussy who sucks vince's cock and his only fans are 5 year olds
Michaels=legend, future wwe hall of famer, has had every single wwe belt, and he's one of the best all-time

well not nearly every one. in fact only three that I can think of, but I may be wrong. Cena has also had three though. Obviously HBK is the better wrestler, but then Austin and Hogan aren't exactly the best technical wrestlers around, but they'd still be considered legends in wrestling. Cena has potential definitely. WWE will eventually turn him heel when nobody expects it and he'll do really well. You can't say that there's anyone that could generate as much heat in wwe at the moment.

 

[figure4]

michaels all the way i hate cena there simple enough and isnt a paragraph long

Ok so u hate Cena that's fine but at least give it some justification. U don't have to be an ass about it. And blowjoe I think you are right Cena would be a great heel, he was before.

 

[Omais]

I would say John cena.He has more passion.All Shawn does is jump up after he's down and crowd only waits for that to happen.John Cena has more reaction with the crowd.John Cena also has the WWE title.If he wasnt the better wrestler Shawn wouldve had it at WM23.

 

[X]

Wow. Should I even respond to Omais's posts? Screw it, I will.

You do know wrestling is fake right? That they go into every match already knowing who is going to win the match, and that the winners of matches are planned out as far as monthes in advance? Cena is not the better wrestler, and if you've ever seen an HBK match from the years 1988-last week you'd realize that. HBK is old now, he's getting tired, so he can't show off his skills in the ring as much as he used to. But go search for his old matches on YouTube, and you'll see how ridiculiously better of a wrestler he is then Cena.

And no, Cena does not have a better or bigger reaction from the crowd, if he did, don't you think they would've booed HBK when he superkicked Cena a few weeks ago? No, they went crazy and cheered the loudest they did the entire night. Because the only people who like Cena are little kids, women, and teenagers who don't know any better.

I'll try and break this to you as gently as I can:
Cena = Never had a five star match from the Wrestling Observer
HBK = Three of the four matches in all of WWE history that were given five stars by the Wrestling Observer, he was involved in.

Not that hard to do the math. This isn't even an opinion, it's fact.

 

[SG Killmer]

Why does everyone slam on Cena all the time. He is not that bad of a wrestler.

 

[X]

Do you really need to ask that question? There are literally thousands of posts on this forum saying why. I'm just going to state a few points because I've repeated why he is the worst wrestler in the WWE right now many times.

1. He cannot wrestle worth a shit. If you think he can, you obviously know absolutely nothing about wrestling and have never watched a good match in your life.
2. He has been shoved down WWE's throats so much that it has sparred geniune hatred for the man, and not his character.
3. He has held the title almost all of the last 2 years, without providing one good match to merit this.
4. He can't wrestle worth shit.
5. He can't wrestle worth shit.
6. He can't wrestle worth shit.

Do I really need to continue? I'd rather watch bunny rabbits be sodomized then watch Cena butcher another PPV main event.

 

[figure4]

Come on xfearbefore that's not fair, I thought we became friends yesterday.

1.) He's NOT THAT BAD! DAMN! I gave you a match listing yesterday you obviously didn't review any of them like I suggested.
2.) EVERY major champion has been shoved down our throats, dude. Come on, you remember Shawn Michaels chasing his "Boyhood Dream" and all that bullshit from 96, makin my boy The Excellence of Execution look like some scrub.
3.) He has provided good matches, and yes they may have been largely because of the opponents he fought, but why would a WWE Title match be against a scrub? Can you tell me that?
4.), 5.), and 6.) Come on dude, your arguments are usually more sound than this.

Cena is the man. I know we argued about this yesterday, but come on now, if you hate Cena, that's fine. But the whole "he can't wrestle" ship has SAILED. Puh-lease give me something else, people. The champion does not have to be a brilliant technical wrestler, some of the greatest WWE Champions of all time were not brilliant technical wrestlers. Cena hasn't had any five-star matches, maybe, but to say none of them were good is a really, really sad thing to say. Maybe we don't know as much as we think we do, eh? HBK is still the better man, I know. But they just have different styles. That's what makes them who they are.

 

[X]

I've seen every match that you listed yesterday and none of them impressed me, none of them. Perhaps its just my opinon mate, but your argument that the ship has sailed on the Cena can't wrestle argument is completely false. How has that ship sailed? Has Cena shown one inkling of improvement over the last five years? No, he hasn't, he's only gotten worse and that's not something you can argue, all you have to do is look at his old matches and compare them with his new ones and you can tell he's gotten lazy in the ring.

And yes, he really is that damn bad. I honestly cannot think of a worse wrestler, I can't. Fuckin' Batista and Lashley have more talent then Cena, and both of those guys are as bland and talentless as they come. It's all a matter of opinion really though isn't it, you're not going to change mine and I'm not going to change yours.

I'm sorry mate if I offended you or anything, but Cena just can't do shit in the ring. They never shoved HBK down our throats, he became a face because the crowd loved him even as a heel because of his solid wrestling skills. When he was "chasing his boyhood dream" atleast he put on great matches every time he went out there and actually cared about what he was doing. Cena on the other hand, got a small ammount of pops starting in the year 2004 when he went from heel to face, and since then he has been built up to be this invincable champion who only loses if his opponents cheat. You can't honestly tell me he deserved wins over guys like Triple H, HBK, Benoit, Angle, etc.

I would stop bitching about Cena if the WWE would stop building him up and shoving him down our throats so much. I mean, the fans have actually turned on the guy, the only fans he has left are women and little kids. The crowds boo the shit out of him whenever he goes out there and he's supposed to be the good guy! You know why they're booing? Because they know how bad he is in the ring and they're sick and damn tired of having to watch him stink up match after match after match.

I just don't understand how anyone could like the guy. He hasn't done a single thing to earn any respect from me, let alone has he earned his title reigns. If anything he should still be squabbling over the US title. And that's at best.

 

[hatehabsforever]

Two things bother me personally in particular about John Cena.

For one, I don't think he is a particularly good wrestler. I think he is better than what a lot of the Cena bashers write, but he really just isn't good enough to be champ for almost 2 straight years. Whether you like his gimmick/character, whether he sells a ton of merchandise, the fact of the matter is is that he is average in the ring at best.

What bothers me more than anything is the fact that no matter what odds are stacked against him, he always wins. This is not plausible. Look at Raw from Milan this week. 2 on 1 handicap match, with outside interference from HBK, and he wins anyway. I think they could blindfold Cena, tie his hands behind his back, and put him in the ring with 5 guys, and goddammit he'll win the match. Wrestling is less interesting to watch when EVERYONE knows the result in advance everytime.

At Backlash, he'll be in the Fatal Fourway with Edge, HBK, and Orton. Everything will be stacked against him. Three guys will gang up on him. Fans will boo him mercilessly (like in Milan), and he'll win, while looking average all the while.

Plus I hate his gimmick moves. Granted all wrestlers have them (can you say the People's Elbow?), but I hate the 5 knuckle shuffle, you can't see me, and all that crap. Impresses the hell out of my 7 year old, but I hate it.

 

[Big Ace]

Just watch Shawn Michaels tribute videos on YouTube. Compare them to Cena's. Cena's are all just F-U's and 5 Knuckle Shuffles. Shawn actually wrestles. Let me take you back to 1996.

It was WrestleMania 12. Shawn Michaels Vs Bret Hart in a 60 minute Ironman Match for the WWF Title. First off, does Cena have the endurance? the stamina? to Wrestle for 60 minutes in the main event at WrestleMania? I don't think so. Could he pull it off with Hitman? Nope. Hitman would have to carry him the whole match. It wouldn't be technical because obviously, Cena can't adjust himself. Hell, Shawn could have excellent matches with Jericho, Angle, and even a 60 year-old Vince McMahon. Could Cena do that? To quote the great Stone Cold Steve Austin...''AH-AH!''

OK, well moving on. DX. Could Cena pull of DX? No. Cena's not funny. Even with a script that was written by the funniest writers in Wrestling today, It wouldn't get a chuckle. Shawn pulled off the gimmick. Shawn was a lovable heel. Cena's a hateable Face.

Shawn Michaels Vs Stone Cold. Could Cena get Austin over in 98? No. Hell, Cena wouldn't have been Champion. If this was the Attitude Era, Cena would've been chewed up and spit out by now.

Moving on. Shawn Michaels was not shoved down our throats. If he was, Wouldn't he have been boo'ed just like Cena? Well, there's something Michaels has that Cena doesn't and that's Wrestling ability. That's what's wrong with Wrestlers today. They start off in OVW, they have a good gimmick, decent mic skills, win the title, get promoted. They last there for probably 2 months. You do not learn how to Wrestle well in two months. It can't be done unless your family is into wrestling.

Shawn Michaels is more charismatic and is more controversial. The most ''Controversial'' thing Cena has ever done was getting boo'ed @ WM 22. Big woop. Shawn Michaels has been there since 1988 and I'm sick and tired of people saying that John Cena is a better wrestler.

Not only that, but it just gets down-right annoying when Cena starts rambling on in his promos. He's laughing and talking about 'Battle Of The Billionaries' one second, and the next he drops the smile, gets serious, and gets into his stupid Marine act. It's pathetic. John Cena couldn't wrestle with the best of them. He couldn't even tie up HBK's boots. If you actually think that John Cena is a decent, improving wrestler, then you my friend...are a Cena mark.

Oh and now onto WrestleMania. Who was it that hit the Spring-Board Moonsault at WrestleMania 23? Wasn't the 29 year old WWE Champ John Cena? Oh no wait. It was the 41 year old veteran, That's right. The Heartbreak Kid, Shawn Michaels. Like he's stated, Shawn Michaels can give you a show like you have never, ever seen before. Why? Because he can. And Cena can't. Explain why Shawn Michaels has won Match Of The Year 6 or 7 times. And why Cena has never even come close, yet HBK is ''over-rated'' Cena couldn't have had a great first Ladder Match. A great first Hell In A Cell match. He couldn't have been in NWO. DX. Nothing. Shawn Michaels and Ric Flair are the greatest wrestlers I have ever seen. Cena? He'll be forgotten when some other jackass sells more T-Shirts.

Cena sucks. Chaingang sucks, and this Era of Wrestling sucks.

**** Batista
and **** Cena

 

[figure4]

That's why I said that they are pushing a champ who kids and women adore right now, because they are the ones tuning in every week and buying the T-shirts.

Let's examine the three biggest superstar champions that the WWE has ever had: Hulk Hogan, The Rock, and Stone Cold Steve Austin. Neither one of these guys are great technical wrestlers. Regardless of what they may have lacked in the ring, their respective eras were the biggest and most popular eras in wrestling.

While the quality of WWE is not that great right now, there's no denying that the WWE is more popular now than it was in the years of 2003 and 2004. Ratings-wise, it is doing better than those years.

When Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels (great technical wrestlers) dominated the Title, WCW was the number one product in wrestling. As much as nobody likes to admit this, it is the truth. From 1994 until Stone Cold's first title reign in 1998, WCW was the end all-be-all in wrestling, with the evolution of the nWo being the hottest thing in wrestling.

The bottom line is, that while there may be guys who are better than Cena in the ring, right now he is the one that is making WWE top shit in wrestling. WWE is pretty mainstream right now, as WrestleManias are seen as an actual important, mainstream event these days.

I'm not giving all of the credit to Cena, but he is obviously the face of the franchise right now. And yea, he's being shoved down our throats, but it is not like they have tried to force people to like Cena, honestly. They have been done with that. They expect the mixed crowd reactions and that is why they keep matching him up with guys who the crowd is more friendly to.

Wrestling fans are fickle bastards anyway and only want something when they don't have it. Just like how the people turned on my boy The Rock and bood the shit out of him when Brock Lesnar was beefing with him but now all you hear people say is "Rock, come back". Just like people bitched in 2003 when Triple H had the belt all damn year and now people say "we want better wrestlers to be the champs". Well, hello Triple H is the best damn wrestler in WWE and people complained then. Just like now people say they want a better wrestler but like I said when a great wrestler was champ-Chris Benoit, ratings were low, just like when Bret and Shawn dominated the belt ratings were shit compared to the product Eric Bischoff and WCW was putting out there.

These people do not know what they want, they gotta realize that this is a business and your in-ring skills are not what matter at the end of the day. And to suggest that Cena's in-ring skills are really that bad is just an ultra-biased opinion without keeping in mind that his gimmick is to wrestler the brawling, fighting kind of style and not employ a thick arsenal of moves. If he was not good enough to do it, then he would not be there, I promise you guys that.

Like I've said before, Cena's time will come where he will have to start putting people over just like Shawn was invincible for a couple years just like it seemed like nobody could beat Triple H in 02-04. Then Cena will turn heel and by then it will be somebody else's time to shine.

Is Cena better than Michaels? Of course not, I'm not that stupid. But the kids who love him now will definitely have his back when they get older, just like the kids like me who watched Bret Hart dominate will go to bat for that guy. I didn't care about how good he was in the ring, how good Stone cold, The Rock, and Hulk Hogan were in the ring. I just knew I could watch them and be damn entertained, and that's all that matters at the end of the day. Cena entertains as well, whether you want to admit it or not.

 

[X]

If you actually think that John Cena is a decent, improving wrestler, then you my friend...are a Cena mark.

It's official, that's going in my sig. Ace hit the nail on the head, if his argument doesn't persuade you then nothing will.

 

[rockynater]

This Is'nt Even A Question Obviously SHawn Micheals, He's Better In The Ring, And With The Fanss
I Dun Even Know Why Cenas Even Compared TO HBK In this Question
He Is The Most OVERATED WRESTLER EVVEERRRRRRRR

 

[figure4]

For the fifty thousandth time I never said that Cena was better than Shawn Michaels. Never. There will only be one Shawn Michaels. There will only be one of every great star the WWE has ever seen. I am just stating the facts. Money, money, money. That's all that matters.

 

[El Kabong]

Michaels is definlety a better than Cena. Cena is just an army, rapping tool whose fans probably dont know how to say wrestling. Shawn Michaels is a successful tag team and singles wrestler and has held every single championship in the wwe. Michaels is definitley better.

 

[Big Ace]

That's why I said that they are pushing a champ who kids and women adore right now, because they are the ones tuning in every week and buying the T-shirts.

Let's examine the three biggest superstar champions that the WWE has ever had: Hulk Hogan, The Rock, and Stone Cold Steve Austin. Neither one of these guys are great technical wrestlers. Regardless of what they may have lacked in the ring, their respective eras were the biggest and most popular eras in wrestling.

While the quality of WWE is not that great right now, there's no denying that the WWE is more popular now than it was in the years of 2003 and 2004. Ratings-wise, it is doing better than those years.

When Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels (great technical wrestlers) dominated the Title, WCW was the number one product in wrestling. As much as nobody likes to admit this, it is the truth. From 1994 until Stone Cold's first title reign in 1998, WCW was the end all-be-all in wrestling, with the evolution of the nWo being the hottest thing in wrestling.

The bottom line is, that while there may be guys who are better than Cena in the ring, right now he is the one that is making WWE top shit in wrestling. WWE is pretty mainstream right now, as WrestleManias are seen as an actual important, mainstream event these days.

I'm not giving all of the credit to Cena, but he is obviously the face of the franchise right now. And yea, he's being shoved down our throats, but it is not like they have tried to force people to like Cena, honestly. They have been done with that. They expect the mixed crowd reactions and that is why they keep matching him up with guys who the crowd is more friendly to.

Wrestling fans are fickle bastards anyway and only want something when they don't have it. Just like how the people turned on my boy The Rock and bood the shit out of him when Brock Lesnar was beefing with him but now all you hear people say is "Rock, come back". Just like people bitched in 2003 when Triple H had the belt all damn year and now people say "we want better wrestlers to be the champs". Well, hello Triple H is the best damn wrestler in WWE and people complained then. Just like now people say they want a better wrestler but like I said when a great wrestler was champ-Chris Benoit, ratings were low, just like when Bret and Shawn dominated the belt ratings were shit compared to the product Eric Bischoff and WCW was putting out there.

These people do not know what they want, they gotta realize that this is a business and your in-ring skills are not what matter at the end of the day. And to suggest that Cena's in-ring skills are really that bad is just an ultra-biased opinion without keeping in mind that his gimmick is to wrestler the brawling, fighting kind of style and not employ a thick arsenal of moves. If he was not good enough to do it, then he would not be there, I promise you guys that.

Like I've said before, Cena's time will come where he will have to start putting people over just like Shawn was invincible for a couple years just like it seemed like nobody could beat Triple H in 02-04. Then Cena will turn heel and by then it will be somebody else's time to shine.

Is Cena better than Michaels? Of course not, I'm not that stupid. But the kids who love him now will definitely have his back when they get older, just like the kids like me who watched Bret Hart dominate will go to bat for that guy. I didn't care about how good he was in the ring, how good Stone cold, The Rock, and Hulk Hogan were in the ring. I just knew I could watch them and be damn entertained, and that's all that matters at the end of the day. Cena entertains as well, whether you want to admit it or not.

The thread wasn't about who sold the most T's. It was about who was the better wrestler. Shawn Michaels is the better wrestler. HBK did indeed sell T-Shirts as well, but he was cheered, unlike Cena, because he was a GREAT wrestler. I didn't have a problem with HHH being Champ. His pic is my sig. The Rock? He was the only reason I kept watching and still to this day, I think he's the most entertaining wrestler EVER.

Yes, WCW did beat the crap out of the WWF when WWF was wrestling. But the fact is, It was also directed to kids. At the time, WCW appealed to more age groups, and it was Live which made it edgy. If you want to turn this into WCW vs WWE, I'm perfectly fine. Had John Cena been Champion when WCW was beating the WWF, Their ratings would've been even lower.


I don't even boo Cena anymore. There's no point. I realized that what's the point in doing it, if he's just going to keep winning. He'll go over time and time again. It's hard to accept, but that's Wrestling these days. Thing is, in Attitude Era, they arguably had both good Wrestlers and great T-Shirt sellers. You had everyone. Cena would not be accepted back then.

Like I said, Attitude Era had everything because that's when WWE made its most money, and when they sold the most T-Shirts. Shawn Michaels is a better wrestler. Period. Anybody who thinks that Cena is improving...Then you obviously haven't been watching long.

 

[watchingandwaiting]

HBK...5 star matches....First ladder match.....Matches of the year..... etc .etc etc...... I don't think that there is any dispute of how great HBK is. And only the BIGGEST Cena mark would ever argue that Cena is a better wrestler than HBK. But the arguement that "HBK has done X, P, and Q. Cena hasn't. Therefore, Cena sucks" just doesn't make any sense to me. Who HAS done what HBK has done? Anyone who even comes close gets mentioned as one of the all-time greats. Cena obviously isn't one of those either. But there is a lot of space between "All-time great" and "worst of all time". I realize that everyone is going to have different opinions about his moveset and his push and his gimmick etc. But all that arguement is the exact reason why Cena's run in the WWE can't be considered a failure. He gets people talking about the product and watching it, whether they are hoping for him to overcome impossible odds or just get his ass kicked all over the ring.

 

[figure4]

Big Ace, chill out dude. My original answer to the thread is yes, HBK is better but this is the Cena era and his legacy will be remembered when its all said and done. I've been defendind that case the last two days. But yes, I know Cena will never be a Shawn Michaels.

And el kabong, your five would fall victim to mine, sorry.

 

[X]

figure4, people didn't tune out of WWF in the ratings war because Shawn Michaels and Bret Hart were the top stars, that's just ludicrous. People tuned out because WWF was still in it's kid friendly cartoon character stage, with people like Doink the Clown running around and dumpster drivers for faces. WCW was on top because it was edgy, hip, and showcased more talent on its show, which by the way was an hour longer then WWF's at the time.

And the Rock & Stone Cold not technically sound? Are you serious? Those two are two of the greatest to ever wrestle, with The Rock being a serious contender for greatest wrestler, ever. Both of them had vast repertoires of moves, amazing mic skills, and put on classic matches every month at the PPV, always.

And your argument that Cena is the face of the company right now is bullshit, if he was the face of the company then why has he been endlessly booed for the last two/three monthes? Remember when HBK hit him with the sweet chin music? That was a sneak attack, one of the oldest HEEL moves in the book, and the crowd roared in approval. The other week when HBK eliminated Cena, the crowd once again roared in approval. HBK has done atleast three or four straight up HEEL moves in the last couple weeks and every time they're directed at Cena the crowd loves it. Did you watch Raw last night? The crowd was booing the loudest I've ever heard in wrestling every single time the guy got any offense in.

That's the face of the company?

 

[watchingandwaiting]

Xfear, I think that Figure4 meant that he was the face of the company as in "the most recognizable person" rather than "everyone views him as a babyface"... and if I'm right about that then I have to agree.

On another note.. Right now Cena's getting heat that any heel would kill for..but do you think that if he actually turned heel, he'd lose some of that heat since his going heel would actually make people like him more?

 

[Shocky]

WCW was on top in 96, simply because of Hogan turning heel. That got all the people that abandoned wrestling in 95 to come back, but not to WWE, to WCW. It had nothing to do with Michaels as champion. WWE was mickey mouse horsecrap, and it deserved to have its ass kicked.

The only reason Cena is champion right now is real plain and simple, the WWE has no competition to force Cena out of that top spot. If Nitro was still on and Cena was WWE champion, ratings would be at an all time low. Tht's a fact. 2006 was the lowest year in attendance and ppv buy rates since before the attitude era, and that is attributed to people tuning out John Cena. The mondya night ratings maybe high, but 5 year old kids and 15 year old teenagers aren't buying pay per views. Us 25 year old guys are tuning into UFC ppv's instead of predictable Cena overcoming the odds horsecrap.

*turning Cena heel might be the most incredible thing the WWE has done in the last 5 years. All the teen girls would still think he is a Hawwt T. People hate him anyway, and to make him be a cocky asshole shoving that stupid ass spinner belt down out throats even more would generate interest. I for one would pay to hopefully see him get his ass whooped.

 

[figure4]

Watchingandwaiting, thank you for the support, my boy xfear thinks I would really be dumb enough to think that Cena is the top "face" in the company right now, with the chorus of boos he receives week after week...

If there was still a WCW, it would be pretty interesting to see who would be on top right now. I think it would still be WWE, personally. With Cena as the champ.

I would like to see Cena make a heel turn, but I just think that would not work because there are not enough faces on RAW as it is. When Triple H returns, that may be a different story. But right now, it's Cena, Michaels is a tweener right now, Edge and Orton are the ultimate heels right now, and the rest of the RAW roster is mostly a bunch of scrubs who are just stuck, who WWE won't push.

I think I can make a case as the biggest Cena fan on here, but if WWE were to push somebody and they were to take his title, I would not be upset, it would be nice to see somebody else with the title. But they have to do something with guys like Nitro, Benjamin, Carlito. They are just stuck in the middle and only sliding further and further down. Chris Masters has not done anything significant. I would love to see somebody else get a chance to make a big push. But I don't write the scripts, and I don't sign the checks.

And xfear, you think my hero The Rock is a serious contender for greatest of all time? So I'm not alone. I thought I was the only one who felt like that.

 

[Shocky]

The Rock is probably not one of the greatest technical wrestlers, but he's pretty damn good. He is just so damn enjoyable to watch in the ring that it makes up for any flaws that he does have.

And Steve Austin was an amazing technical wrestler before he broke his neck. He had to change his whole style into a brawler after that injury, and did a damn good job. Obviously so because he was the most successful draw in the history of the company.

 

[Big Ace]

Big Ace, chill out dude. My original answer to the thread is yes, HBK is better but this is the Cena era and his legacy will be remembered when its all said and done. I've been defendind that case the last two days. But yes, I know Cena will never be a Shawn Michaels.

And el kabong, your five would fall victim to mine, sorry.

I wasn't really yelling TBH. His legacy won't be remembered like Hogan's, Austin's, or Cena's. Really, I don't think Cena has proven much to anybody, and a heel turn wouldn't do anything. He's too deep in the hole to get most of his old fan back. I was never a Cena fan because I didn't watch Wrestling in 2005. Why? Because it was Cena's run to the top.