Who is REALLY better? Randy Savage or Ric Flair

[ServantofTwilight]

reddevil69 said-

Savage and hogan were very close in the 80's and that is a fact that Hogan has backed up several times and says so on his own dvd...i also have an interview from TSN's Off the Record from 2002 saying his kids were devastated when he and Randy stopped speaking as they were very close with him as well, to the point that Hogan would still place gifts under the christmas tree signed from Randy to make them happy....get your facts right...

I watched the dvd again and...you are correct. I had read articles saying that they were not close but since it came from Hogan's mouth I say that holds more water. I concede that point.

Funny thing, tho. As I was watching Hogan also revealed several other things. First, he helped Savage and got him all his colorful ropes and such, helping to create his character. Also, Hogan states that after they split in 92(? whenever Elizabeth and Savage split ) and Hogan went to WCW savage called Hogan and asked Hogan to get him into WCW. Savage asked Hogan to help him get into WCW. It is on the DVD. SO, without Hogan we may not have had the Macho man persona and Savage needed Hogan's help to get into WCW. Doesn't sound like the great superstar you keep mentioning as being great on his own. Kind of strengthens my point that Savage's success is based on Hogan.

and what don't you understand about the fans popping for Savages victory over santana in 1986 for the IC belt!

Because they didn't. I have the match on tape, on a release called WWF Greatest Matches, so I watched it again. Savage was booed. When Savage left the ring after Santana had momentum he was jeered. Everytime Santana reversed something on Savage and got the best of him the crowd cheered. When Santana put on the figure 4 the crowd exploded. When Savage was announced as the new champ the crowd booed. Watch the match.

After watching this match I remembered I had another of their matches, this one on Best of the WWF Vol 13. This match was much the same. Savage was heavily booed. Santana heavily cheered. When Savage hid behind Elizabeth and won the match by countout because of it he was booed, jeered and given the thumbs down by the crowd.

So then I pulled out Saturday Nights Main Event: The Greatest Hits and watched Savage vs Steele. More of the same. Steele was cheered. Savage jeered, especially when Savage mistreated Elizabeth. Sorry, Savage was a heel who was booed. And he was good at it.

Savage was far more popular than bundy and was the bigger star as heel...end of story...Bundy's major heat lasted about 3 months, after Mania 2 he was back to mid card, wrestled midgets the following mania and was gone 6 months later..

I never said otherwise. I said Bundy was the top heel coming in up to WM2. Then it was Orndorf. Ask yourself this; if savage was the top heel as you say, why did the WWF feel the need to manufacture an Orndorf heel run to finish off 86 and go into 87? Where afterward, fyi, Andre became top heel.

Savage made the IC belt as hot as a firecracker and was a huge star and a big reason why people tuned in to Saturday nights Main Event, not just to see hogan...

No, not anymore then any other champ. we already went down this road. Since it is more opinion, however, we will leave it at that. As for your SNME comment, lets put it to the test. We will only look at SNME up till Savage wins the World title, as then people should be tuning in to see the champ. So...

10/31/85 aired 11/2
Terry Funk pinned Junkyard Dog.
"Piper's Pit" with Hillbilly Jim, Uncle Elmer, & Cousin Junior.
Hulk Hogan & Andre the Giant beat King Kong Bundy & John Studd via DQ.
Randy Savage beat WWF I-C Champ Tito Santana (3:15) via countout.
Ricky Steamboat pinned Mr. Fuji (1:45).

Did people tune to see the savage match...or Hogan/Andre vs Studd/Bundy?

12/19/85 aired 1/4/86
Jesse Ventura, Roddy Piper, & Bob Orton beat Hillbilly Jim, Uncle Elmer, & Cousin Luke when Piper beat Luke with a sleeper hold.
WWF World Champ Hulk Hogan pinned Terry Funk.
Randy Savage pinned George Steele.
Nikolai Volkoff pinned Cpl Kirschner in a "flag" match.
Junkyard Dog & Ricky Steamboat beat Mr. Fuji & Don Muraco when JYD pinned Fuji.

Savage vs Steele pre fued over title or Elizabeth...or World title defence by Hogan? I offer that the Ventura/Piper/Ortan teaming was big also.

11/15/86 aired 11/29
aired WWF I-C Champ Randy Savage DDQ Jake Roberts.
WWF World Champ Hulk Hogan pinned Hercules Hernandez (8:00).
Roddy Piper pinned Bob Orton (6:25).
The Killer Bees beat The Hart Foundation when Brunzell pinned Hart.
Koko B. Ware pinned Nikolai Volkoff.
Don Muraco pinned Dick Slater (2:05).

This one I would almost give you, but I still say Hogan drew more veiwers and the Piper/Ortan match was bigger.

12/14/86 aired 1/3/87
WWF World Champ Hulk Hogan beat Paul Orndorff (15:00) in a "steel cage" match.
WWF I-C Champ Randy Savage pinned George Steele.
Junkyard Dog beat Harley Race (6:00) via DQ.
Adrian Adonis beat Roddy Piper (3:30) via countout.
Blackjack Mulligan pinned Jimmy Jack Funk.

do I even have to ask?

2/21/87 aired 3/14/87
WWF I-C Champ Randy Savage beat George Steele (5:00) via countout.
Hercules won a "battle royal" which included: Andre the Giant, Ron Bass, Brian Blair, Jim Brunzell, Demolition Axe & Smash, Haku, Billy Jack Haynes, Hillbilly Jim, Honkytonk Man, Hulk Hogan, Blackjack Mulligan, Paul Orndorff, Lanny Poffo, Butch Reed, Sika, Tama, Nikolai Volkoff, and Koko B. Ware.

King Kong Bundy beat Jake Roberts (12:00) via countout.
WWF Tag Champs The Hart Foundation beat Tito Santana & Danny Spivey (4:00) when Hart pinned Santana.
Ricky Steamboat pinned Iron Sheik.

Savage vs Steele again or a Battle Royal featuring Andre and Hogan?

4/28/87 aired 5/2/87
Kamala pinned Jake Roberts (5:00).
Randy Savage pinned George Steele (6:00) in a "lumberjack" match.
The British Bulldogs beat WWF Tag Champs The Hart Foundation in two straight falls.
The Hart Foundation was DQed (5:00).
Dynamite pinned Niedhart.
WWF I-C Champ Ricky Steamboat beat Hercules (6:00) via DQ.
Rick Martel & Tom Zenk beat Iron Sheik & Nikolai Volkoff (4:00) when Martel pinned Sheik.

this one I will concede, although the tag match, after how the Harts had won the title is up there.

9/23/87 aired 10/3/87
Randy Savage beat WWF I-C Champ Honkytonk Man via DQ.
WWF World Champ Hulk Hogan pinned Sika (10:00).
King Kong Bundy pinned Paul Orndorff (10:00).
WWF Tag Champs The Hart Foundation beat Paul Roma & Jim Powers (4:30) when Hart pinned Roma.

Hogan over Savage.

11/11/87 aired 11/28/87
George Steele beat Danny Davis (4:47) via submission.
Randy Savage pinned Bret Hart (15:00).
King Kong Bundy beat WWF World Champ Hulk Hogan (9:00) via countout.
Bam Bam Bigelow pinned Hercules (5:30).

So much for Bundy being done after WM2. World champ Hogan beats Savage. Also, just to point out, this was pre singles Hart. Savage was wrestling him because at the time Savage was fueding with Honky and Jimmy Hart.

3/7/88 aired 3/12/88
Brutus Beefcake pinned Greg Valentine.
Hulk Hogan pinned Harley Race (8:00).
Ted DiBiase beat Randy Savage via countout.
Haku & Tama beat The Killer Bees when Haku pinned Blair. This was actually the first fall of a three falls match. The Bees won the second fall while Haku & Tama won the third.
One Man Gang pinned Ken Patera (4:00).

There was no champ at this time, so based on oppenent I will give you that Savage was bigger match. Also note that by now savage is a face.

Thats it. After this one Savage was champ and should have been the attraction. Sorry, but I do not think your arguement holds water. Also, for such a big star, he missed a bunch of cards I did not list.

I don't remember any Bundy or Orndorff shirts walking down the halls of my school but I sure remember those purple savage shirts..

And nodody did in my school so...draw?

I have an interview with Vince stating that Austin was much like Randy Savage in that the fans turned them both, not him...so tell me how does Hogan have anything to do with it initially? Vince saw the fans refusing to boo this guy and decided to take it to the next level by teaming him with a guy that he feuded with a year and a half prior...Savages face heat came all through 1987 and he and Hogan never even touched each other that year. ..the course was set before hogan came into the picture, and vince knew the whole time that he'd split them up in 1989 and draw huge money at Mania.

1. Never said his face turn had to do solely with Hogan. I said he was turning face when he began chasing Honkytonk. I said he became a full blown face superstar when Hogan made the save on SNME and the Mega Powers were formed. If not for that, midcard.

2. As stated, he started turning in 87. he was a heel up until Honkytonk won the title. then they started turning him face. Hogan and him touched in Sep of 87, but it was a handshake and not a match. I have that match on tape also, on the SNME Greastest hits and the crowd only goes nuts when Elizabeth comes back with Hogan.

3. Yes, just like he did with Orndorf and just like he did with Andre. Never said Vince wasn't smart.

Savage was all over network tv promoting that match, he was on talk shows and his face was everywhere...as a heel...he transcended the business during the boom period of the late 80's, Bundy,DiBiase, Orndorf and yes even Flair did not.

I disagree. He began appearing regurally as a face. And that has more to do with Vince and the WWF then it did Savage. Vince made it into an entertainment monster. Had the crocketts or Turner had the foresight or ability to do this...who knows. Just look at how popular guys like Rhodes and Sting were. Who knows what could have happened if Flair had had the WWF PR machine behind him in the lte 80s. That ones on the WWE and to point Hogan, not Savage.

he and Elizabeth were a huge attraction that's why he held the IC belt for 14 months and the World Title for 13 months

Thanks, never thought of that. yes THEY were. savage was a bigger heel because of the way he treated Elizabeth. And of course he was a bigger face when he began treating her better. Another thing that helped his career.

savage went on to be top guy because he had the whole package and thus was more popular than steamboat....you obviously pander to steamboat because your a flair fan and Flair slobbers all over him as well...

How am I pandering to Steamboat. You brought him up in the WM3 match. I don't like or care about Steamboat. He just happened to be the oppenent in Savage's big match and in some of Flair's big matches.

and just because Meltzer doesn't list his matches as five star does not erase the numbers he drew, that is one mans opinion of his fave matches...I'm sure you won't find Cena on that list but I'm pretty sure Cena has generated and made more money in the last five years than Flair ever did.

I only mentioned that because I found it funny that when you sent me to do your work and look up facts I found stuff which strengthened my arguement. Found it funny is all.

As for Cena...are you serious. You want to compare Cena in his prime with several years as a midcarder and 4 as a top guy to Flair's 1 year in his prime in the WWE. No kidding Cena drawing more. Another funny thing though, according to Meltzer, Savage ranks 15 on the top drawing list in WWE history. Cena is 16. So Cena will be passing Savage so then by your logic...Cena is better then Savage. By the way 1-2-3 were Sammartino, Hogan, and Backland.

and what we deserve as fans is not the point...vince tries to sell himself as a guy that caters to the fans and will put aside personal feelings in the name of business...he's done it with Hogan, Hart, Roberts, Piper and even bischoff...my point is that he's a hypocrite because of his burial of Savage..you cannot tell me or anyone else that the guy who held the WWF title longer than anyone in one straight title run from 1988 until 2006, and did it during the height of hulkamania does not deserve more recognition and a place in the hall of fame.

Doesn't matter. He felt his gripes with the others were something he could get over. His gripe with Savage, at least up to now, he feels otherwise. Just the way it goes. Just because you like Savage and want these things does not make Vince wrong for not doing them. Do I think he deserves them? Yes. I would buy a dvd set of Savage. I like Savage. I think he was a great performer. I am just not ready to elevate him as highly as you.

And as for the 'height of Hulkamania' thing...we went over that.

I said-

True, but it was not that great. Hogan dropped the belt to leave and work on the movie he was filming. Originally the title was going to go to Dibiase, but it was changed and Savage, the 2nd choice won it. How? Hogan's help. Savage then goes into a fued with Dibiase. A fued whose fondation was laid down by Hogan. Next was Andre, another Hogan carry over. The only real fued savage had on his own was with Bad News Brown. Anyone else remember that? At Summerslam Savage was in the main event...teaming with Hogan. At Survivor series Savage was in the main event...teaming with Hogan. At the Royal Rumble 89 his involvment was centered around Hogan. And of course he dropped the belt to Hogan when Hogan was done filming 'No Holds Barred'. Sorry, but babysitting the belt for Hogan for a year while Hogan saw limited action is not that impressive.

I stand by this.

 

[reddevil69]

reddevil69 said-



I watched the dvd again and...you are correct. I had read articles saying that they were not close but since it came from Hogan's mouth I say that holds more water. I concede that point.

Funny thing, tho. As I was watching Hogan also revealed several other things. First, he helped Savage and got him all his colorful ropes and such, helping to create his character. Also, Hogan states that after they split in 92(? whenever Elizabeth and Savage split ) and Hogan went to WCW savage called Hogan and asked Hogan to get him into WCW. Savage asked Hogan to help him get into WCW. It is on the DVD. SO, without Hogan we may not have had the Macho man persona and Savage needed Hogan's help to get into WCW. Doesn't sound like the great superstar you keep mentioning as being great on his own. Kind of strengthens my point that Savage's success is based on Hogan.



Because they didn't. I have the match on tape, on a release called WWF Greatest Matches, so I watched it again. Savage was booed. When Savage left the ring after Santana had momentum he was jeered. Everytime Santana reversed something on Savage and got the best of him the crowd cheered. When Santana put on the figure 4 the crowd exploded. When Savage was announced as the new champ the crowd booed. Watch the match.

After watching this match I remembered I had another of their matches, this one on Best of the WWF Vol 13. This match was much the same. Savage was heavily booed. Santana heavily cheered. When Savage hid behind Elizabeth and won the match by countout because of it he was booed, jeered and given the thumbs down by the crowd.

So then I pulled out Saturday Nights Main Event: The Greatest Hits and watched Savage vs Steele. More of the same. Steele was cheered. Savage jeered, especially when Savage mistreated Elizabeth. Sorry, Savage was a heel who was booed. And he was good at it.



I never said otherwise. I said Bundy was the top heel coming in up to WM2. Then it was Orndorf. Ask yourself this; if savage was the top heel as you say, why did the WWF feel the need to manufacture an Orndorf heel run to finish off 86 and go into 87? Where afterward, fyi, Andre became top heel.



No, not anymore then any other champ. we already went down this road. Since it is more opinion, however, we will leave it at that. As for your SNME comment, lets put it to the test. We will only look at SNME up till Savage wins the World title, as then people should be tuning in to see the champ. So...

10/31/85 aired 11/2
Terry Funk pinned Junkyard Dog.
"Piper's Pit" with Hillbilly Jim, Uncle Elmer, & Cousin Junior.
Hulk Hogan & Andre the Giant beat King Kong Bundy & John Studd via DQ.
Randy Savage beat WWF I-C Champ Tito Santana (3:15) via countout.
Ricky Steamboat pinned Mr. Fuji (1:45).

Did people tune to see the savage match...or Hogan/Andre vs Studd/Bundy?

12/19/85 aired 1/4/86
Jesse Ventura, Roddy Piper, & Bob Orton beat Hillbilly Jim, Uncle Elmer, & Cousin Luke when Piper beat Luke with a sleeper hold.
WWF World Champ Hulk Hogan pinned Terry Funk.
Randy Savage pinned George Steele.
Nikolai Volkoff pinned Cpl Kirschner in a "flag" match.
Junkyard Dog & Ricky Steamboat beat Mr. Fuji & Don Muraco when JYD pinned Fuji.

Savage vs Steele pre fued over title or Elizabeth...or World title defence by Hogan? I offer that the Ventura/Piper/Ortan teaming was big also.

11/15/86 aired 11/29
aired WWF I-C Champ Randy Savage DDQ Jake Roberts.
WWF World Champ Hulk Hogan pinned Hercules Hernandez (8:00).
Roddy Piper pinned Bob Orton (6:25).
The Killer Bees beat The Hart Foundation when Brunzell pinned Hart.
Koko B. Ware pinned Nikolai Volkoff.
Don Muraco pinned Dick Slater (2:05).

This one I would almost give you, but I still say Hogan drew more veiwers and the Piper/Ortan match was bigger.

12/14/86 aired 1/3/87
WWF World Champ Hulk Hogan beat Paul Orndorff (15:00) in a "steel cage" match.
WWF I-C Champ Randy Savage pinned George Steele.
Junkyard Dog beat Harley Race (6:00) via DQ.





Adrian Adonis beat Roddy Piper (3:30) via countout.
Blackjack Mulligan pinned Jimmy Jack Funk.

do I even have to ask?

2/21/87 aired 3/14/87
WWF I-C Champ Randy Savage beat George Steele (5:00) via countout.
Hercules won a "battle royal" which included: Andre the Giant, Ron Bass, Brian Blair, Jim Brunzell, Demolition Axe & Smash, Haku, Billy Jack Haynes, Hillbilly Jim, Honkytonk Man, Hulk Hogan, Blackjack Mulligan, Paul Orndorff, Lanny Poffo, Butch Reed, Sika, Tama, Nikolai Volkoff, and Koko B. Ware.

King Kong Bundy beat Jake Roberts (12:00) via countout.
WWF Tag Champs The Hart Foundation beat Tito Santana & Danny Spivey (4:00) when Hart pinned Santana.
Ricky Steamboat pinned Iron Sheik.

Savage vs Steele again or a Battle Royal featuring Andre and Hogan?

4/28/87 aired 5/2/87
Kamala pinned Jake Roberts (5:00).
Randy Savage pinned George Steele (6:00) in a "lumberjack" match.
The British Bulldogs beat WWF Tag Champs The Hart Foundation in two straight falls.
The Hart Foundation was DQed (5:00).
Dynamite pinned Niedhart.
WWF I-C Champ Ricky Steamboat beat Hercules (6:00) via DQ.
Rick Martel & Tom Zenk beat Iron Sheik & Nikolai Volkoff (4:00) when Martel pinned Sheik.

this one I will concede, although the tag match, after how the Harts had won the title is up there.

9/23/87 aired 10/3/87
Randy Savage beat WWF I-C Champ Honkytonk Man via DQ.
WWF World Champ Hulk Hogan pinned Sika (10:00).
King Kong Bundy pinned Paul Orndorff (10:00).
WWF Tag Champs The Hart Foundation beat Paul Roma & Jim Powers (4:30) when Hart pinned Roma.

Hogan over Savage.

11/11/87 aired 11/28/87
George Steele beat Danny Davis (4:47) via submission.
Randy Savage pinned Bret Hart (15:00).
King Kong Bundy beat WWF World Champ Hulk Hogan (9:00) via countout.
Bam Bam Bigelow pinned Hercules (5:30).

So much for Bundy being done after WM2. World champ Hogan beats Savage. Also, just to point out, this was pre singles Hart. Savage was wrestling him because at the time Savage was fueding with Honky and Jimmy Hart.

3/7/88 aired 3/12/88
Brutus Beefcake pinned Greg Valentine.
Hulk Hogan pinned Harley Race (8:00).
Ted DiBiase beat Randy Savage via countout.
Haku & Tama beat The Killer Bees when Haku pinned Blair. This was actually the first fall of a three falls match. The Bees won the second fall while Haku & Tama won the third.
One Man Gang pinned Ken Patera (4:00).

There was no champ at this time, so based on oppenent I will give you that Savage was bigger match. Also note that by now savage is a face.

Thats it. After this one Savage was champ and should have been the attraction. Sorry, but I do not think your arguement holds water. Also, for such a big star, he missed a bunch of cards I did not list.



And nodody did in my school so...draw?



1. Never said his face turn had to do solely with Hogan. I said he was turning face when he began chasing Honkytonk. I said he became a full blown face superstar when Hogan made the save on SNME and the Mega Powers were formed. If not for that, midcard.

2. As stated, he started turning in 87. he was a heel up until Honkytonk won the title. then they started turning him face. Hogan and him touched in Sep of 87, but it was a handshake and not a match. I have that match on tape also, on the SNME Greastest hits and the crowd only goes nuts when Elizabeth comes back with Hogan.

3. Yes, just like he did with Orndorf and just like he did with Andre. Never said Vince wasn't smart.



I disagree. He began appearing regurally as a face. And that has more to do with Vince and the WWF then it did Savage. Vince made it into an entertainment monster. Had the crocketts or Turner had the foresight or ability to do this...who knows. Just look at how popular guys like Rhodes and Sting were. Who knows what could have happened if Flair had had the WWF PR machine behind him in the lte 80s. That ones on the WWE and to point Hogan, not Savage.



Thanks, never thought of that. yes THEY were. savage was a bigger heel because of the way he treated Elizabeth. And of course he was a bigger face when he began treating her better. Another thing that helped his career.



How am I pandering to Steamboat. You brought him up in the WM3 match. I don't like or care about Steamboat. He just happened to be the oppenent in Savage's big match and in some of Flair's big matches.



I only mentioned that because I found it funny that when you sent me to do your work and look up facts I found stuff which strengthened my arguement. Found it funny is all.

As for Cena...are you serious. You want to compare Cena in his prime with several years as a midcarder and 4 as a top guy to Flair's 1 year in his prime in the WWE. No kidding Cena drawing more. Another funny thing though, according to Meltzer, Savage ranks 15 on the top drawing list in WWE history. Cena is 16. So Cena will be passing Savage so then by your logic...Cena is better then Savage. By the way 1-2-3 were Sammartino, Hogan, and Backland.



Doesn't matter. He felt his gripes with the others were something he could get over. His gripe with Savage, at least up to now, he feels otherwise. Just the way it goes. Just because you like Savage and want these things does not make Vince wrong for not doing them. Do I think he deserves them? Yes. I would buy a dvd set of Savage. I like Savage. I think he was a great performer. I am just not ready to elevate him as highly as you.

And as for the 'height of Hulkamania' thing...we went over that.

I said-


I stand by this.

that's fine, you are entitled to your opinion and i respect that...but as far as the Meltzer thing goes, you didn't prove anything...his rating of matches does not negate the fact that Savage was the top draw of 1988, and Meltzer has it all on paper...i subscribe to his newsletter and i've seen the figures....all you've done was find that he may agree with you on flair as a performer compared to savage but that's not what i was saying in the first place...I stated that savage was indeed a major draw without Hogan and that is a fact that is on paper...hogan was absent for 6 months straight from WWF tv in 1988 and did not compete on house shows for almost the entire year and Savage was drawing strong numbers as the champion without hogan on the card....and savage also outdrew flair that year as well and was voted wrestler of the year in PWI...just because flair has more 5 star matches according to you and Meltzer does not change the facts from a business standpoint...Hogan isn't exactly a five star match wrestler but he still made more money and outdrew everyone else.

if Flair was such a coveted asset why did vince release him in 1992 after only a year in the WWF?...if he was so important to the business he would have held onto him...the fact is that in WWF at that time Flair was not drawing as well as Taker,Hart, and yes Savage...Vince is supposed to be a genius businessman correct? Well he obviously didn't see any value in having flair in his company or he would have held onto him to begin with...you don't let valuable employees go to work for your competition, and it wasn't like he couldn't afford to pay him, he just didn't feel he needed him...WCW was still 4 years away from offering guaranteed contracts in order to lure talent away from vince so it's not like they stole him away...and once hogan and savage got there Flair was basically treated as an afterthought and then once the NWO kicked in he was basically mid-card.

 

[ServantofTwilight]

reddevil69 said-

his rating of matches does not negate the fact that Savage was the top draw of 1988, and Meltzer has it all on paper...i subscribe to his newsletter and i've seen the figures....

Then prove it. Post those figures here and show how the WWF did not drop from 87 to 88 and then pick up again in 89 and you would have no arguement from me.

all you've done was find that he may agree with you on flair as a performer compared to savage but that's not what i was saying in the first place...I stated that savage was indeed a major draw without Hogan and that is a fact that is on paper...

No, you first said that Savage was a better in ring wrestler then Flair, not the bigger draw. Here is your statement-

And as far as putting on exciting dazzling matches, Savage was much better than Flair...i'm sick of all this "Flair could go an hour" crap...sure he could, all his matches were filled with boring rest spots like a 3 minute headlock....I'll take the 15 minutes that Steamboat had with Savage at Wrestlemania 3 over any match of Flairs....

What I found was a wrestling reporter who runs a wrestling site who has more Flair matches being great then Savage's. That was my point. Of course Savage was the bigger draw, the WWF was drawing more then the NWA. Savage would have really had to suck to drop the WWF down that far.

and savage also outdrew flair that year as well and was voted wrestler of the year in PWI...

Lets go there. Savage was indeed wrestler of the year for 88. Flair was wrestler of the year for 81, 84, 85, 86, 89 and 92. More then any other wrestler. He was also in the match of the year in 83( vs Race ), 84( vs Von Erich ), 86( vs Rhodes ) and 89( vs Steamboat ). Savage in 87( vs Steamboat ). He was in the fued of the year in 87, 88, 89 and 90. Savage in 97.

if Flair was such a coveted asset why did vince release him in 1992 after only a year in the WWF?...if he was so important to the business he would have held onto him...the fact is that in WWF at that time Flair was not drawing as well as Taker,Hart, and yes Savage...Vince is supposed to be a genius businessman correct? Well he obviously didn't see any value in having flair in his company or he would have held onto him to begin with...you don't let valuable employees go to work for your competition, and it wasn't like he couldn't afford to pay him, he just didn't feel he needed him...WCW was still 4 years away from offering guaranteed contracts in order to lure talent away from vince so it's not like they stole him away...and once hogan and savage got there Flair was basically treated as an afterthought and then once the NWO kicked in he was basically mid-card.

Here is the story as I heard it back in 93. take it for what you will. I am not saying this is fact, I am saying this is what I heard back then.

Lugar loses the WCW in feb of 92 and then decides to leave WCW. He is still under contract, WCW does not release him so, even though he goes to thw WWF he cannot wrestle for them or appear as a wrestler. So vince ties him into the WBF, which Vince was promoting. Lugar gives an interview at WM8 as a bodybuilder, with Heenan singing his praises. After that Lugar does not appear on WWF tv.

Fast forward to Jan of 93. WCW has gone through several Pres including Jim Herd and Bill Watts( who put in the terrible no top rope moves rule ). WCW was sinking and falling below WWF. So, WCW agrees to release Lugar from his contract, release several lesser wrestlers from contracts so if the WWF was interested they could pursue and in return they get Flair back. Deal is made and Lugar appears at RR93, though not in ring, just a promo and pose shoot. Flair is set to leave but Vince has him leave in a 'loser leaves town match', being pinned by Perfect. One month later Flair appears at Superbrawl 3 and the WWF has Lugar competing and setting up a WM9 match with Perfect. So, thats how I heard it went.

It should be noted that according to Flair that when he got back to WCW Ole Anderson, who was now in charge, said he had no use for Flair no that he lost to Perfect on TV. It is on his DVD. I always like it when people here post that all one has to do is read Ole's book to see how bad Flair was. They never mention that Ole and Flair had a falling out in 93 and so of course Ole is not going to speak highly of him. Kind of like Vince and Savage. Anyway, Flair went on of course to win the title, lose it to Hogan and then you are right, behind Biscoff Flair is regulated to midcard. That is an interesting story on his dvd.

 

[reddevil69]

I just watched Flair's shoot dvd and he once again has managed to completely contradict himself...he goes against everything he says in his book regarding Savage,Foley and Hart. He says he had no problem with Savage pre-planning their WM8 match and that is was just different for him, no big deal, and that he liked working with Savage...yet in his book he criticizes Savage for the same thing and says he was not a great worker...funny how he talks frankly and positively about Savage on a non-WWE dvd but barely mentions him on his own WWE 3 disc set....does the word "biased" come to mind. I won't get into all the other things that he completely contradicts about Hart and Foley, but he basically says that he said what he said in his book to piss them off and cause controversy...this is why I don't respect Flair now....telling lies and stirring up shit to sell books is not how the so called 'ambassador to wrestling' should be presenting himself....when Ole or anyone else does it it's frowned upon on, Flair does it and it's ok because he's Ric Flair?....

and i'm sorry, I like Arn andersen and Barry Windham, but calling them great and saying Bret was ok is asinine...both Flair and HHH have said that if you are truly great then 'the cream will rise to the top'....politics can't hold you down if you are that good...well Arn Andersen never drew shit without the rub of the Horseman or Flair and neither did Windham....Bret Hart became an international star and the face of the promotion for nearly 5 years...if Arn and Barry were as great as Flair claims, they would have been World Champion on their own and been the guy to carry the torch and they clearly never did.

and now the Saturday nights Main Event dvd is being released and there are 5 Savage matches on it.....pretty good for a guy that people claim doesn't matter anymore...you cannot tell the story of wrestling and how it became as big as it did without mentioning Randy Savage.

 

[ServantofTwilight]

and now the Saturday nights Main Event dvd is being released and there are 5 Savage matches on it.....pretty good for a guy that people claim doesn't matter anymore...you cannot tell the story of wrestling and how it became as big as it did without mentioning Randy Savage.

Funny, I thought the WWE was revisionist and didn't include Savage on there stuff. You have just defeated the point you were argueing.

As for Flair and his book...whatever. He may be the biggest asshole ever outside the ring, the point I was making is that inside the ring I thought he was great. Does it make it right what he did? Of course not, but his being a jerk on shoot interveiws and in his book does not detract from his greatness in the ring.

 

[reddevil69]

Funny, I thought the WWE was revisionist and didn't include Savage on there stuff. You have just defeated the point you were argueing.

As for Flair and his book...whatever. He may be the biggest asshole ever outside the ring, the point I was making is that inside the ring I thought he was great. Does it make it right what he did? Of course not, but his being a jerk on shoot interveiws and in his book does not detract from his greatness in the ring.

I never said they don't include his matches, not one time...I said they don't talk about him or give him his due. Flair throws the word 'great' around in all his WWE dvds/interviews when referring to Windham,Andersen,Sting and Steamboat but barely mentions Savage and certainly doesn't say anything complimentary abut him as a worker. The Curt Hennig disc barely mentions him tagging with Savage in the main event of SS 1992, but they focus a large amount of time on every other main event he was involved in.

there is a bias toward Savage, as I said, Flair tells a completely different story and has a different take on Savage when he's not under contract to Vince. Not acknowledging a person's contributions, trying to pretend they didn't exist or skimming over important pieces of wrestling history because your boss had a falling out with the person is telling a revisionist story...younger fans who watch these dvds swallow it whole and buy into everything that is being said because they don't know the history...WWE puts their spin on it and it's taken as gospel.

And I never said Flair was the biggest asshole....you did. I said he carries himself pretty poorly for a 60 year old man who is supposed to be the ambassador of wrestling and represent it with class and integrity...filp-flopping and changing your story every time you're asked a question on a certain topic is not being credible and neither is claiming that you were better than Bret Hart because you "spent more money on spilled liquor than Hart did on ring attire". What does that have to do with ring-work?

 

[CM_Rage]

I think Savage was the better wrestler. He seemed to have the whole package. I was more interested in watching his wrestle than Flair. I don't know, I guess Flair just didn't bring as much excitement to teh ring. Savage had better storylines and he had great passion and charisma. Flair was just so full of himself all the time. It's not to say that Flair isn't a great wrestler himself, I just think Savage's persona and skills outshine Flair's.

 

[ServantofTwilight]

reddevil69 said-

I never said they don't include his matches, not one time...I said they don't talk about him or give him his due.

Ok, I am starting to see how this works. You make a blanket statement about something and then when someone mentions a point you can say you never actually said something. Sort of like the "All Flair matches are boring...", but he doesn't suck.

Earlier you and others said that part of the problem with savage is that the WWE does not show him. You specifically said tv, I will give you that, but the implication was that he was never seen and so people today didn't know about him. You even mentioned youtube as a place people had to go to see him. My point is that savage does appear on WWE TV, on Classics; he does appear on DVDs; and he does appear on the internet on WWE.com. His matches are remembered, as is he. He does not get as much attention as you would like because of a beef with Vince.

The Curt Hennig disc barely mentions him tagging with Savage in the main event of SS 1992, but they focus a large amount of time on every other main event he was involved in.

First part...they don't mention it. It was not that important. Warrior does not bail and it does not happen at all. You make it seem like it was this big planned out deal, but it was just thrown together, and in the overall career of Perfect it was not that big.

Second part...really, they mention in detail his minor chase of Hansen for the title, his major fued with Gagne, his fued with Beefcake, his fued with Hogan, including Perfect destroying the belt? No, they don't. they don't even touch on his fued with Flair, which was the real storyline for Series 92. They don't mention the Loser leaves match. They leave all this out but you are going to harp because they leave out one match with savage?

Plus, as a bonus, on the DVD they say thaat in the 80s the IC champ was regarded as the best wrestler. The Heavyweight belt was on the one who drew or sold the most, but the best pure wrestlers were IC champs. Who do they show to bring their point home? Tito Santana, Randy Savage, and ricky Steamboat.

Not acknowledging a person's contributions, trying to pretend they didn't exist or skimming over important pieces of wrestling history because your boss had a falling out with the person is telling a revisionist story...

How? They acknowledge he was an IC champ. They acknowledge he was World champ. They acknowledge he wrestled at big events. They acknowledge he headlined Wrestlemanias. They acknowledge he was involved in great matches and great fueds. How is it being revised?

And I never said Flair was the biggest asshole....you did.

Oh my. I am not saying Flair is an asshole. I am saying that it does not matter how he acts outside the ring. He could be a saint or a prick, neither takes away from his IN ring work.

I said he carries himself pretty poorly for a 60 year old man who is supposed to be the ambassador of wrestling and represent it with class and integrity...filp-flopping and changing your story every time you're asked a question on a certain topic is not being credible and neither is claiming that you were better than Bret Hart because you "spent more money on spilled liquor than Hart did on ring attire". What does that have to do with ring-work?

This whole part is pointless. As stated, it does not matter in this debate what Flair did outside the ring, but inside. However, if Savage actually did what he is rumored to have done to get on Vince's bad side, then no one has room to put down Flair.

 

[reddevil69]

reddevil69 said-



Ok, I am starting to see how this works. You make a blanket statement about something and then when someone mentions a point you can say you never actually said something. Sort of like the "All Flair matches are boring...", but he doesn't suck.

Earlier you and others said that part of the problem with savage is that the WWE does not show him. You specifically said tv, I will give you that, but the implication was that he was never seen and so people today didn't know about him. You even mentioned youtube as a place people had to go to see him. My point is that savage does appear on WWE TV, on Classics; he does appear on DVDs; and he does appear on the internet on WWE.com. His matches are remembered, as is he. He does not get as much attention as you would like because of a beef with Vince.



First part...they don't mention it. It was not that important. Warrior does not bail and it does not happen at all. You make it seem like it was this big planned out deal, but it was just thrown together, and in the overall career of Perfect it was not that big.

Second part...really, they mention in detail his minor chase of Hansen for the title, his major fued with Gagne, his fued with Beefcake, his fued with Hogan, including Perfect destroying the belt? No, they don't. they don't even touch on his fued with Flair, which was the real storyline for Series 92. They don't mention the Loser leaves match. They leave all this out but you are going to harp because they leave out one match with savage?

Plus, as a bonus, on the DVD they say thaat in the 80s the IC champ was regarded as the best wrestler. The Heavyweight belt was on the one who drew or sold the most, but the best pure wrestlers were IC champs. Who do they show to bring their point home? Tito Santana, Randy Savage, and ricky Steamboat.



How? They acknowledge he was an IC champ. They acknowledge he was World champ. They acknowledge he wrestled at big events. They acknowledge he headlined Wrestlemanias. They acknowledge he was involved in great matches and great fueds. How is it being revised?



Oh my. I am not saying Flair is an asshole. I am saying that it does not matter how he acts outside the ring. He could be a saint or a prick, neither takes away from his IN ring work.



This whole part is pointless. As stated, it does not matter in this debate what Flair did outside the ring, but inside. However, if Savage actually did what he is rumored to have done to get on Vince's bad side, then no one has room to put down Flair.

I could not disagree more. how you carry yourself and behave in public, whether it's in a night club,an airport or a mall is important. what Flair did in the ring is what he's lauded for,but he will never be considered the true "ambassador" of the sport because of how he conducts himself outside the ring.It takes nothing away from his in ring accomplishments, but he is considered the measuring stick when it comes to being a professional wrestler, and I think to be truly great you should conduct yourself with class at all times, not wave your penis at flight attendants while on a flight or jump up on a table in a public night-club and pull your pants down and shake your ding-a-ling at everyone...

that is not someone to look up to...just because he was good between the ropes does not excuse that kind of behaviour, same as O.J. being a thug and convicted criminal now overshadows his football career. Benoit was a better wrestler than Flair in my opinion, but the first thing he'll be remembered for when anyone mentions his name is that horrible weekend in the summer of 2007, not his ringwork. I'm not saying Flair did anything close to that, those things are asinine, I'm just saying that for me, the more I have found out about Flair as a person over the last few years, the less of a fan I am.That is just my opinion. I know Flair is always going to be remembered for his career, and not his life outside it, but for me,those types of things affect how I look at a person in any walk of life.

Undertaker is the most respected member of the wrestling fraternity and it is not only because of his ring work, but how he carries himself outside the ring, how he treats fans and how he treats his fellow wrestlers. Vince quickly parted ways with Flair after his retirement, you don't think that maybe him getting into a scuffle with his daughters boyfriend and the police had anything to to do with it? i'm quite sure that WWE doesn't want their "Babe Ruth" acting like that in public.

That was what Flair was supposed to be according to what he says about the deal he signed, and they took it away from him pretty quickly after that incident. There is a reason WWE has a dress code for their employees, because it does matter how you carry yourself outside the ring. And as far as the rumours about Savage, it has never been mentioned by one single wrestler that was employed by WWE at that time when it allegedly took place, no charges were ever brought forth, if Steph was underage don't you think the cops would have been involved? It is all rumours, unlike the reality of Flair telling stories about how many times he cheated on his wife on dvd, which to me is classless.

Bret Hart's book is filled with infidelity stories, but he is not proud of it and does not refer to it in a braggadocio manner, and you never ever hear any other wrestlers referring to him making an ass-clown of himself in public.If the Savage rumour is ever confirmed and turns out to be true, then I will lose any respect i have for the man, I don't care if i'm a fan of his in-ring career, I won't willingly purchase any WWE product that will give him royalties and put money in his pocket.

Savage has maintained a low profile and not made a spectacle of himself since retiring. He made a crappy rap cd but that's about it.

and when I refer to Savage being mentioned on dvds, I think I made it clear the Flair tells a different story on the WWE dvd and in his book and changes his story for his own shoot... he was clearly pandering to McMahon because he was still under contract to him. So your saying it's acceptable to flip-flop in all your interviews? how is anyone supposed to believe whether the guy is telling an accurate story or not? One minute Savage is not a great worker, ahh, but wait a minute, six months later on a shoot interview, he loved working with Savage and thought he was great.Which is it?

 

[Old School Fan]

I think to answer this question we have be objective, and to be a great wrestler you have to be complete in every way that a wrestler should be. I my opinion we can evaluate a wrestler simply by the following skills:

- Wrestling Skills - That include technical skills, ring work, psychology, athleticism, selling etc. Both man were tremendous wrestlers but in my opinion Randy Savage had better wrestling skills than Ric Flair, his matches were much more entertaining and his style of wrestling and the way he adapted to every opponent were just great. Savage had a fantastic ability to make his opponent look great even if they weren't that great in the ring, for example, Hogan or the Ultimate Warrior. (Savage wins this one)

- Entertainment Skills - That include mic skills, acting and capability of delivering the stories behind the matches. Flair's mic skills were much better that Savage altough Savage ability of selling his feuds and storylines were just phenomenal. As for making promos i think Flair was just great, much like Hogan. As far as entertainment skills go, overall i think Flair was just a little better. (Flair wins this one)

- Charisma - Both man had tremendous charisma in and outside of the ring , both had a huge star power, but i think Savage had a little more charisma than Flair, Savage always made me believe in what he was doing in and out of the ring. Besides, Randy Savage had the "intestinal fortitude" that made him one of the greatest wrestling champions of all time. (Savage wins this one)


Overall i would have to say that Randy Savage was the better wrestler.

 

[ServantofTwilight]

wow. Ok.

reddevil69 said-

I could not disagree more. how you carry yourself and behave in public, whether it's in a night club,an airport or a mall is important. what Flair did in the ring is what he's lauded for,but he will never be considered the true "ambassador" of the sport because of how he conducts himself outside the ring.It takes nothing away from his in ring accomplishments, but he is considered the measuring stick when it comes to being a professional wrestler, and I think to be truly great you should conduct yourself with class at all times, not wave your penis at flight attendants while on a flight or jump up on a table in a public night-club and pull your pants down and shake your ding-a-ling at everyone...

And that is all that matters for this conversation. we are askidng who was the better wrestler, not person. It is their in ring and interveiw skills that we are debating.

that is not someone to look up to...just because he was good between the ropes does not excuse that kind of behaviour, same as O.J. being a thug and convicted criminal now overshadows his football career.

Now. And in ten years all this will be forgotten but O.J will still be a former college great, a College HoF member, a former Heisman winner, a former great NFL running back, first back ever to rush for 2000 yds in a season and an NFL HoF member. Yes after football he has done some terrible things, but his records and past accomplishments remain unchanged. Pick up a record book and you will be able to read all about them.

Benoit was a better wrestler than Flair in my opinion, but the first thing he'll be remembered for when anyone mentions his name is that horrible weekend in the summer of 2007, not his ringwork.

Again, I disagree. Right now, because it is still fresh, Benoit is remembered for that. Years from now when someone sees a match on a DVD or youtube; they will think what a great worker. if they seek out info on Benoit they will find the rest. However his in ring greatness is what will first be noticed.

I'm not saying Flair did anything close to that, those things are asinine, I'm just saying that for me, the more I have found out about Flair as a person over the last few years, the less of a fan I am.That is just my opinion. I know Flair is always going to be remembered for his career, and not his life outside it, but for me,those types of things affect how I look at a person in any walk of life.

I don't really have a arguement for this. It is your opinion and of course you are entitled. the problem I have is that these reasons are not what you gave earlier. You seem to change from one thing to another( in ring, drawing, WOTY, outside life ) every time I counter you with facts and points. Your first arguement was that Flair was boring, now it is that Flair is not a good person. Your constant changing weakens your points. Which one is the right one?

i'm quite sure that WWE doesn't want their "Babe Ruth" acting like that in public.

Babe Ruth was an overweight, womanizing drunkard who happened to be able to hit the long ball. Outside of baseball he was the Flair of his day. Ty Cobb was a dirty player who who used to spike opponents, was also a drinker and a womaniser. Mantle was a drinker and a skirt chaser. Jim Brown used to punch tacklers in the ribs and chest so they would not try to tackle him so hard the next time. Most of the greats of the NFL in the 70s were coke heads and womanisers.

Lets change venues. Russel Crowe is often in trouble with the law. Mel Gibson, Christian Slater, Heather Locklear, Rob Lowe, Charlie Sheen, Frank Sinatra, Dean Martin etc etc.

Do I even have to get into the rock world. None of the people I mentioned will win Nice Guy of the Year, but all will be remembered for their work in the field, on the screen or on the stage. People are quick to forgive if they are entertained. So it will be with Flair.

If the Savage rumour is ever confirmed and turns out to be true, then I will lose any respect i have for the man, I don't care if i'm a fan of his in-ring career, I won't willingly purchase any WWE product that will give him royalties and put money in his pocket.

The reason I only said rumor is because I did not want to state what I did not know to be true. Wether he did it or not, I couldn't say but...Vince had a beef with Verne Gagne over his stealing of AWA talent. they buried the hatchet. Vince had a beef with Hogan. They buried the hatchet. billy Graham almost sent Vince to jail; they buried the hatchet. Hart was pissed over the screwjob and his brothers death; they buried the hatchet. For Vince not to reconcile with Savage tells me Savage did something big.

 

[The Big Gunnzbowski]

I never said they don't include his matches, not one time...I said they don't talk about him or give him his due. Flair throws the word 'great' around in all his WWE dvds/interviews when referring to Windham,Andersen,Sting and Steamboat but barely mentions Savage and certainly doesn't say anything complimentary abut him as a worker. The Curt Hennig disc barely mentions him tagging with Savage in the main event of SS 1992, but they focus a large amount of time on every other main event he was involved in.

there is a bias toward Savage, as I said, Flair tells a completely different story and has a different take on Savage when he's not under contract to Vince. Not acknowledging a person's contributions, trying to pretend they didn't exist or skimming over important pieces of wrestling history because your boss had a falling out with the person is telling a revisionist story...younger fans who watch these dvds swallow it whole and buy into everything that is being said because they don't know the history...WWE puts their spin on it and it's taken as gospel.

And I never said Flair was the biggest asshole....you did. I said he carries himself pretty poorly for a 60 year old man who is supposed to be the ambassador of wrestling and represent it with class and integrity...filp-flopping and changing your story every time you're asked a question on a certain topic is not being credible and neither is claiming that you were better than Bret Hart because you "spent more money on spilled liquor than Hart did on ring attire". What does that have to do with ring-work?

Apparently, you guys haven't been up to speed on the whole "WWE vs Savage" debacle that's been ongoing... Randy Savage has somehow pissed off Vince McMahon enough to get himself effectively blackballed... There's no mention of Savage in ANY WWE media, he won't have any kind of involvement in the WWE here on out, and will most likely be denied a place in the HoF. It's all fucking stupid, but none the less, has happened.

As far as this argument, I'd go with Flair being the better "wrestler". Macho Man was arguably the best mic worker in the 80's, for the simple fact that he never made any damn sense and was funny as hell to watch. Flair had charisma like no other, but Macho Man will always stand out in my mind, because he was unique. There was NOBODY else like him. Flair mimicked gimmicks from the past, whereas Savage was the one and only who, til this day, I firmly believe was consumed by "Madness"! Yeeeeeeeeeeah, BRUTHAAAAA! DIIIG IT!

 

[GameOver]

Randy Savage isn't totally blackballed. In Australia we get WWE Vintage Collection which show matches from decades past, and Randy Savage matches have been shown in a good light many times. Even the match where he tagged with mr Perfect to Face Razor Ramon and Ric Flair, which on the Mr Perfect DVD is skimmed over, but in the Vintage Collection it was show in full.

If the rumors are true, then it's understandable why Vince McMahon would want nothing to do with Savage, and video posts from Randy Savage himself make many derogatory and violent statements against the McMahons, Hulk Hogan and Triple H.

Still it's a pitty, much like Chris Benoit, Randy Savage was an intrical part of WWE history
and ya can't change history by ignoring it, we who have been around watching since the early 80's know it happened

 

[JerryvonKramer]

Wow, I lot of ignorance in this thread, especially from some of the old WWF marks.

It's a very close contest for me, but Flair is the best wrestler of all time and has had the more "glittering" career. Flair had three epic matches with Steamboat, Savage had just the one. I'd take two of the Flair-Steamboat matches over the WM3 match.

Flair's 1991-3 run in WWF was awesome from start to finish and Savage was a big part of it. People talk about Flair-Savage at WM8, but I also have fond memories of Savage-Warrior at SS92 with the copious amounts of interference from Perfect and Flair -- one of the most fun matches ever.

I think both guy's subsequent careers in WCW aren't that much to write home about considering their immense talent. I put this mainly down to booking. I don't think wrestling has gained anything in particular by Flair's career since 2002.

But judging both men on the period that matters (1983-1994), unless you're one of those people who thinks WWF>WCW period, you'd have to say that Flair shades it.

 

[Tastycles]

Randy Savage is probably in my top few wrestlers of all time, as is his brother. Put simply, Ric Flair is not.

Savage was over as both a face and a heel because he was good at the psychology of being both. Only Hogan was more liked than him in the late 1980's and even then only by a shade. I'd argue that for much of the time when Savage was champion, Hogan played second fiddle in the popularity stakes too.

Flair was over as a heel because he was quite a good heel, and unlike most heels, rarely got his commupance and ended up winning in the end. Flair was over as a face because he was an old man that shouted "woo".

Every single Savage match I have seen has been fantastic. He had a very modern style for the 80s and managed to be entertaining. I have never seen a good Ric Flair match. His performance in the 1992 Royal Rumble is by far the worst performance by a winner, including Vince. That entire match was about Hogan and Sid Justice. Flair does nothing. To enter at number 3 and eliminate 4 people and win is piss poor. When you consider that Sid was basically eliminated by Hogan, then he eliminated 3. The fucking Repo man sent two out.

I'm sick to death of the one hour matches thing too. A long match isn't a good match, nor is it a popular match. There wasn't a match on the card of WrestleMania that was longer than 15 minutes, but that card generated about 10 times the interest of the best Flair card of 1985. An hour of falling over, followed by a punch to the bollocks and a figure four is not a good match.

Savage headlined WrestlMania and was a top draw. Flair did perform infront of 100,000 people in North Korea, but he was against the most popular asian wrestler of all time, and he was in North Korea. Snitsky v Chuck Palumbo would sell out in North Korea.

Ric Flair will always be given more popularity because he wrestled for as long as he possibly could, and then carried on a bit longer. He left WCW and WWE on good terms, so will always have promoters willing to push him. Savage left WWE on bad terms and did not endear himself to his enemies with his rap career. Clearly, no-one is going to go out of their way to help Savage's legacy.

 

[JerryvonKramer]

Savage was over as both a face and a heel because he was good at the psychology of being both. Only Hogan was more liked than him in the late 1980's and even then only by a shade. I'd argue that for much of the time when Savage was champion, Hogan played second fiddle in the popularity stakes too.

This is simply not true. Warrior perhaps was more popular than Hogan but not Savage. Don't forget, Savage went heel in 1990 ("Macho King"), they wouldn't have done that if he was as popular as you say. Savage more popular than Hogan in 1988-9? Don't be silly. The pops during WM5 are proof. The crowd are on Hogan's side.

Flair was over as a heel because he was quite a good heel, and unlike most heels, rarely got his commupance and ended up winning in the end. Flair was over as a face because he was an old man that shouted "woo".

"Quite a good heel"? Are we talking about the same man here? The only guy in the history of wrestling who was a better heel is arguably Ted DiBiase, after him Flair is second to none. And Flair was over as a face a various times in his career, not just when he was old.

Every single Savage match I have seen has been fantastic. He had a very modern style for the 80s and managed to be entertaining. I have never seen a good Ric Flair match. His performance in the 1992 Royal Rumble is by far the worst performance by a winner, including Vince. That entire match was about Hogan and Sid Justice. Flair does nothing. To enter at number 3 and eliminate 4 people and win is piss poor. When you consider that Sid was basically eliminated by Hogan, then he eliminated 3. The fucking Repo man sent two out.

I'm sick to death of the one hour matches thing too. A long match isn't a good match, nor is it a popular match. There wasn't a match on the card of WrestleMania that was longer than 15 minutes, but that card generated about 10 times the interest of the best Flair card of 1985. An hour of falling over, followed by a punch to the bollocks and a figure four is not a good match.

Have you even seen Flair-Savage at the Chi-Town rumble or Clash of the Champions? Wrestlewar '89? What about any of the Flair-Sting matches? Flair vs. Funk? Windham? Race? Vader in 1993? How can you see none of those are good matches? Are you even a wrestling fan?

 

[ServantofTwilight]

Wow, this thread makes a comeback.

Until I say otherwise or learn to put multiple quotes into my posts these statements are made by and my retorts directed to Tastycles.

Randy Savage is probably in my top few wrestlers of all time, as is his brother. Put simply, Ric Flair is not.

So you are opening your arguement stating that Leaping Lanny Poffo was a better wrestler then Flair?

Savage was over as both a face and a heel because he was good at the psychology of being both. Only Hogan was more liked than him in the late 1980's and even then only by a shade. I'd argue that for much of the time when Savage was champion, Hogan played second fiddle in the popularity stakes too.

Because Hogan was gone!!!!! How hard is this to understand. Hogan drops the belt and leaves to work on No Holds Barred. Savage was the most popular because Hogan wasn't around. And as I have said Hogan was tied to in some way every big event or fued Savage had. Hogan comes back savage is made a heel and drops the belt. Savage was no way near as popular as Hogan.

Every single Savage match I have seen has been fantastic. He had a very modern style for the 80s and managed to be entertaining.

I guess you never saw his matches with Steele or Andre then.

I have never seen a good Ric Flair match.

I love this nonsence. So his matches vs the likes of Steamboat, Rhodes, Magnum TA, Ricky Morton, Robert Gibson, Kerry Von Erich, Kevin Von Erich, Jimmy Garvin, Ronnie Garvin, Sting, Lex Lugar, Wahoo Mcdaniels, Roddy Piper, Nikita Kololf, Sting, Vader, Tatsumi Fujinami, Tiger Mask, Rick Martel, Billy Jack Haynes, Barry Windham, Harley Race, Brusier Brody, Butch Reed, Nick Bockwinkle, Bob Backland, Jack Brisco, Jay Youngblood, Scott Steiner, Road Warrior Animal, Road Warrior Hawk, Curt Henning, Greg Valentine Hulk Hogan and Randy Savage, to name a few, all stunk? You seriously want to stand by that statement?

His performance in the 1992 Royal Rumble is by far the worst performance by a winner, including Vince. That entire match was about Hogan and Sid Justice. Flair does nothing. To enter at number 3 and eliminate 4 people and win is piss poor. When you consider that Sid was basically eliminated by Hogan, then he eliminated 3. The fucking Repo man sent two out.

Your kidding, right. Flair went at with with everyone for over an hour. He battled every superstar that came through the ropes, except Dibiase. He was exciting and entertaining and made the Rumble that year.

Also, in 88 duggan eliminated 3; in 89 Studd eliminated 2; in 90 hogan eliminated 4 and in 91 hogan eliminated 7. That was just the way it was done back then. Flair didn't need to eliminate alot of guys, it was his ability to survive that made it special. One of the best spots is in the middle of the match when everyone is eliminated except Flair. Classic.

Also again, about Hogan and Sid? This started their fued, so there was no heat coming in. The only moment they had was at the very end, and it was quick. Flair was Rumble 92.

I'm sick to death of the one hour matches thing too. A long match isn't a good match, nor is it a popular match. There wasn't a match on the card of WrestleMania that was longer than 15 minutes, but that card generated about 10 times the interest of the best Flair card of 1985. An hour of falling over, followed by a punch to the bollocks and a figure four is not a good match.

You are right. An hour match does not mean it will be good. However, most of Flairs were. That is why they are mentioned. Matches against Windham, Steamboat, Wahoo and Sting that went near or to the distance were great matches. If they weren't more would never have been done. Have you seen any of Flair's longer matches or are you just throwing stuff like this out to make a cheap point?

as for Wrestlemania, take away Mr. T out of the main event and all the celebs out of the card and you have an ordinary MSG card. Hell they even had three squash matches. Wrestlemania and its success was due to Vince being able to promote and his ability to get stars to participate. The success of Wrestlemania had little to do with actual wrestling. thats why it generated interest. Flair/Rhodes from Starcade 85 runs circles around any match from Wreslemania.

Jerryvonkramer said-

This is simply not true. Warrior perhaps was more popular than Hogan but not Savage. Don't forget, Savage went heel in 1990 ("Macho King"), they wouldn't have done that if he was as popular as you say. Savage more popular than Hogan in 1988-9? Don't be silly. The pops during WM5 are proof. The crowd are on Hogan's side.

Actually, to strengthen your point, Savage went heel in early 89. The first seeds planted at Rumble 89 when Hogan eliminated him and then at The main Event in Feb of 89 when Savage turned on Hogan during their tag match. Savage was only a face for a little over a year in the 80s and only when the more popular hogan left to film a movie.

 

[ilapierre]

Flair had more world titles, wrestled longer matches, experienced more career longevity, had amazing theme music and wardrobe.. and he had more freedom to wrestle in Japan and cross over into more territories. He was amazing on the mic - A great promo guy! Amazing storyteller. Perfect heel. But oddly enough Macho Man Savage was just better at everything even though Flair was nearly flawless. Savage was imo the most entertaining wrestler to watch because he was a tough guy and completely unpredictable. He didn't tell the exact same 60 minute story every night because Vince wasn't Dusty and wouldn't allow that in the big leagues. Savage was like Stone Cold Steve Austin and Rock rolled up into one and he could wrestle, tell a story and make you laugh harder than those all time greats combined. Savage had the bigger stage, his TV moments were more memorable..Nothing against Flair, I realize his feuds with all time greats were amazing including his 3 huge matches with Steamboat. The problem for me is that Flair's career didn't play out in WWE during the Hulkamania era. A lot of WWE fans now do not give Sting the credit he deserves when it comes to legacy. I believe Sting is knocking on the door of top 10 ever (definitely top 10 if you leave out some of pre Hulkamania legends). However, I do agree with their arguments that Sting's legacy would be greater IF he had of been WWE wrestler working Wrestlemanias. I know it's somewhat elitist or snobby to hold this way of looking at this. But working territories in small ponds and being given a dozen titles to not leave does not make you greater than Hulk Hogan let alone Randy Savage. Had Savage's father's promotion stayed in business, and Randy stayed there until 1992, then perhaps we'd be having a whole different conversation right now. A big part of the problem for the pro-Flair side when they downplay Savage is that the Angelo's ICW was blacklisted by the other established territories because the Poffos were trying to steal a piece of the NWA and CWA's market. So Savage spent 11 of his best wrestling years working for a company that was off limits to many of the world's best wrestlers of the time. But imo Savage more than made up for his lost time starring in big league WWF and becoming almost iconic as the all time greatest: Hulk Hogan.