Who has the biggest legacy???

[jericho3150]

Wrong on so many levels. Bret Hart matches were almost always the best match of the card, and that would include cards where HBK wrestled.

Cool lets check that one...Heres a lit of anytime these 2 wrestled on the same card.. There are plenty of great Bret and Shawn matches not listed and that is only because they didn't both wrestle at that event. So these star rating are from the Wrestling observer.. >3* of course means it was below 3* and the rating was not bothered t be given.

BRET HBK
WM8 vs Piper ***1/2 (W) WM8 vs Tito Santana >3*
WM9 vs Yokozuna *** WM9 vs Tatanka ***1/2 (W)
WM10 vs Owen ****3/4 WM10 vs Razor ***** (W)
WM11 vs Backlund >3* WM11 vs Diesel **** (W)

SSL92 vs Bulldog ****1/4 (W) SSL92 vs Martel >3*
SSL93 vs Lawler **** (W) SSL93 vs Perfect ***
SSL95 vs Yankem >3* SSL vs Razor ****3/4 (W)

SS96 vs Austin ****1/2 (W) SS96 vs Sid ***1/2

RR93 vs Razor ***1/4 RR93 vs Marty **** (W)

IYH2 vs Lefite **** IY2 vs Jarrett ****1/2 (W)
IYH6 vs Diesel >3* IY6 vs Owen **** (W)
IYH17 vs Patriot ***1/4 IYH17 vs Taker ***3/4 (W)
IYH18 vs Patriot >3* IYH18 vs Taker ***** (W)

The tally of showstealing performances is Bret Hart 4/13 and HBK 9/13.

Tag Team Wrestling- Bret also changed Tag Team Wrestling. The Hart Foundation was one of the first WWE teams to have a double team finishing move, and the revolutionized the "big guy/little guy" type of team.

Match Specials- Who invented ladder matches? Not HBK, Bret Hart brought them to WWE from Stampede wrestling, where he had many with the likes of Dynamite Kid. Most were superior to HBK's there too. Bret was a better cage match wrestler (HIAC doesn't count, it didn't exist until after Bret left WWE).

Invented the ladder match?? No. But he was the one that made the laddermatch famous. And please stop just regurgitating what Bret has said.. Im more willing to bet that you've never actually seen a stampede wrestling ladder match. And your trying to take credit away from Shawn yet trying to give credit to Bret because he took an idea that wasn't his and suggested it over at his new company...?? wow your really grasping at straws boss.

HBK's DX stuff got over wo wildly partly because of the reaction to it that Bret portrayed.

Oh I get it now... I didn't pick up on the sarcasm before but you got me.. I almost believed someone really posted this as an intelligent response. That was good.

 

[Emmet]

If this was an ordinary sport, like Football or Rugby or whatever. Bret would easily have the bigger legacy than HBK, but unfortunately, its pro wrestling, and legacys or more often than not decided by Vince McMahon. This is why HBK will have a bigger legacy than Bret Hart, even though IMO he doesn't deserve it.

Without Bret Hart, there would be no Shawn Michaels. Bottom line. Bret was the first little guy to make it big, Bret broke down that barrier. Bret made it believeable for little guys to be world champions. HBK then followed suit, but HBK wasnt that believeable as world champion. Bret however was. In saying that they werent great drawing champions, but I regard that as to they time they both peaked at, rather than there ablility.

Bret had the better matches IMO. Whenever I watched a Bret Hart match, everything was so smooth, his punches actually looked like a proper punch. HBK's punches were like some girl who was drunk trying to throw a punch. Bret Hart made wrestling seem like it was real. Everything he did looked real. I dont think there is another wrestler, ever, that made that impression on me.

People bring up the ladder match at WMX. Bret brought that idea to Vince way back in 1992, which we all know. The finish that HBK and Hall did was stole from Bret. Bret told HBK about the finish and he said he wouldnt use it, but as history shows he did. I would personally rather have Bret vs Owen. The backstory was awesome, and the match was even better.

Young wrestling fans will always remember HBK mroe than Bret. Thats natural, but not fair. If you are 17 or younger, you arent going to remember much of Bret Hart. But I could nearly gurantee, anyone from 21+ would pick Bret over HBK, everytime.

 

[Razor Blade Dream]

If this was an ordinary sport, like Football or Rugby or whatever. Bret would easily have the bigger legacy than HBK, but unfortunately, its pro wrestling, and legacys or more often than not decided by Vince McMahon. This is why HBK will have a bigger legacy than Bret Hart, even though IMO he doesn't deserve it.

Without Bret Hart, there would be no Shawn Michaels. Bottom line. Bret was the first little guy to make it big, Bret broke down that barrier. Bret made it believeable for little guys to be world champions. HBK then followed suit, but HBK wasnt that believeable as world champion. Bret however was. In saying that they werent great drawing champions, but I regard that as to they time they both peaked at, rather than there ablility.

Bret had the better matches IMO. Whenever I watched a Bret Hart match, everything was so smooth, his punches actually looked like a proper punch. HBK's punches were like some girl who was drunk trying to throw a punch. Bret Hart made wrestling seem like it was real. Everything he did looked real. I dont think there is another wrestler, ever, that made that impression on me.

People bring up the ladder match at WMX. Bret brought that idea to Vince way back in 1992, which we all know. The finish that HBK and Hall did was stole from Bret. Bret told HBK about the finish and he said he wouldnt use it, but as history shows he did. I would personally rather have Bret vs Owen. The backstory was awesome, and the match was even better.

Young wrestling fans will always remember HBK mroe than Bret. Thats natural, but not fair. If you are 17 or younger, you arent going to remember much of Bret Hart. But I could nearly gurantee, anyone from 21+ would pick Bret over HBK, everytime.

I agree. Also bear in mind that people will remember HBK's personality more than anything. Yes, the matches will be there but people will talk about what he pulled off on the camera. Bret Hart was the better all around wrestler. I liked your analogy of football and rugby, players are remembered for what they accomplished on the field and the personality comes second. Unless you're notorious baseball legend Ty Cobb, who was just as big of a bastard on the field as he was off the field. Bret will be remembered for his accomplishments in the ring and sadly the whole Montreal Screwjob thing. It is just a shame he was forced into retirement by a stupid mistake in the ring by Goldberg. I guess that is all it takes right?
It just makes me wonder what could have been after the downfall of WCW and where Bret would have ended up.

 

[Skillz]

Using Dave Meltzer's star ratings to see who's the better wrestler is the stupidest thing I've ever seen. Why the fuck should one person's subjective opinion be used to see who's had better matches? He hasn't even been a part of the wrestling business, and people take his word as gospel? That's completely ridiculous. If I made a star rating for every match, would people start using that as fact? He's just a man who gives his opinions on wrestling, nothing more. So people should stop sucking his dick.

As far as who has the bigger legacy, overall it's quite close. If you were to only ask people who have been watching for 15+ years then it's a guarantee that a large majority would say that Bret Hart has the bigger legacy, and was more impactful on a global scale than Shawn Michaels. If you look at their careers up to HBK's injury, then Bret completely blows HBK out of the water. Bret was a far greater World Champion than HBK, only an idiot would deny this. Bret was a far greater storyteller, worker and seller than HBK too. Neither were great draws but Bret was clearly a better international draw than HBK.

And as far as their matches go for their whole careers, Hart is better in this area too. HBK has had his fair share of great matches, but I have never seen someone have as many overrated matches as HBK. It's almost like a who's who of professional wrestling that has had an overrated match with HBK.

vs. Razor at WM10 - severely overrated due to the gimmick
vs. Diesel at WM11 - awful match that somehow won MOTY, proves that he sucks at being the aggressor in a match, he made his friend Nash look like shit
vs. Razor at SS95 - just a really crap match
vs. Hart at WM12 - personally I don't think it's overrated, but many people do
vs. Mankind at Mind Games - never seen the appeal of this match, quite boring really
vs. Triple H and Benoit at WM20 - probably the most overrated of the lot, boring match that people think is great because of Benoit finally winning the big one
vs. Angle at WM21 - I love this match but greatest match ever? not a chance, completely void of any face/heel psychology
vs. McMahon at WM22 - rubbish match
vs. Flair at WM24 - atrocious match

^Just a few examples, there are many more of HBK's matches that aren't as great as they're made out to be. While I think Hart is better than HBK, the last 6 or so years have been closing the gap, not fully I might add. HBK has a big advantage because he's still wrestling and he has the WWE making him out to be the best ever. But the fact is, he has been half-assing it for 3 or 4 years now. People with true long-term wrestling knowledge would know that Bret is better.

 

[andy zones]

It seems some people are using the assumptions and thinking of a non-wrestling guy as a fact. I have got a bunch of guys who can give far better account. Here we go.
Acc to Vince Bret is the greatest storyteller of all time
Acc to Vince Bret is the biggest international drawing wrestler ever.(Keep in mind wwe started becoming international in early 1992)
Acc to Vince who ever wrestled Bret came out as a better wrestler
Acc to Vince bret could wrestle a broomstick and make it look good
Acc to Austin Bret was the best wrestler he ever wrestled
Acc to Kurt Angle Bret is the greatest wrestler of 20th century and his dream match will always be with the hitman
Acc to Mean Jean Bret is one of 5 greatest technical wrestler in the history of wrestling
Acc to Beniot bret is one of his idols with dynamite kid.
Acc to PWI Bret is the 4th greatest wrestler of all time.(after hogan,andre and flair)
Acc to WWE world poll 2004 Bret is the greatest wwe champion of all time(Beating guys like HBK and Hogan)
Acc to a canadian survey bret is the 39th greatest canadian of all time
An entire hockey team is named after the hitman
Bret hart DVD and Book created all kinds of record in selling
Bret s interview in 2005 was the most watched interview in the history of that program
Jim Ross has defined Bret Hart in ring skills as an art with league of its own

 

[Queers and Steers]

Wrong on so many levels. Bret Hart matches were almost always the best match of the card, and that would include cards where HBK wrestled. There is a reason it took HBK so long to actually win a world title, Bret was having better matches.

Tag Team Wrestling- Bret also changed Tag Team Wrestling. The Hart Foundation was one of the first WWE teams to have a double team finishing move, and the revolutionized the "big guy/little guy" type of team.

Match Specials- Who invented ladder matches? Not HBK, Bret Hart brought them to WWE from Stampede wrestling, where he had many with the likes of Dynamite Kid. Most were superior to HBK's there too. Bret was a better cage match wrestler (HIAC doesn't count, it didn't exist until after Bret left WWE).

Bret Hart was actually the turn in wrestling- Who was the first wrestler to swear on TV? Bret Hart. Who was the first wrestler to punch out the boss? Bret Hart (on tv and off). HBK's DX stuff got over wo wildly partly because of the reaction to it that Bret portrayed.

Matches- Austin became a star when Bret left WWE. That is a fact. The only people who talk about HBK's matches more or those who never actually watched Bret's. Bret had way better matches with Davey Boy, Mr. Perfect, Kevin Nash, Scott Hall (aside from the WM X ladder match), Stone Cold and Owen than HBK ever did. I suggest you watch more Bret Hart matches before making such ludicrous statements.

i have actually saw all of these critically acclaimed Bret matches that your hart fans rave about and as far as technical wrestling bret hart has hbk, but Bret hart was also boring as shit he has the personality of a slug. he did the same exact moves in the same repetitive order every single time. HBK in his hay day was able to do every type of wrestling style successfully without you been bored. and its true that the ladder match was brought to the wwe by Bret, and they had the test ladder match on july 21 1992 in Maine at a house show. but notice Bret never had another one because athletically he was not capable of pulling off so while Bret hart did indeed introduce the match Hbk without an doubt revolutionized it. to me its HBK in a land slide. and its because most older people love a more boring style of wrestling. and to be honest Kurt Angle would destroy Bret Hart in an actual wrestling match! i highly doubt that hart could win a olympic gold medal. which kurt did with a broke neck! kurt was wasy better at actual wrestling and way more entertaining, there is just no space in modern wrestling for bret hart. while HBK is the superstar that ushered in the modern day style of wrestling in

 

[jericho3150]

It seems some people are using the assumptions and thinking of a non-wrestling guy as a fact. I have got a bunch of guys who can give far better account. Here we go.
Acc to Vince Bret is the greatest storyteller of all time

And Vince said "I have to say..from an all around standpoint in the ring Shawn has no peers.. I think Shawn is in a class all by himself"

Acc to Austin Bret was the best wrestler he ever wrestled

Austin said Shawn was one of the greatest of all time.. had the best timing in the history of the business and he's never seen shawn botch a move.

Acc to Kurt Angle Bret is the greatest wrestler of 20th century and his dream match will always be with the hitman

Angle said the match with Shawn at WM was his greatest match. Former stars even called Shawn and Kurt to say that it was the greatest match they had ever seen and that was what wrestling was all about. Like Bobby the Brain Heenan.. Jesse Ventura.. Paul Orndorff.. Chris Benoit.

Acc to a canadian survey bret is the 39th greatest canadian of all time

Now I don't know if that is good for Bret or just really sad for Canada..who was #38 Mike Myers??

Bret hart DVD and Book created all kinds of record in selling

No not really... its sold very well but its not breaking "all kinds of records"

Jim Ross has defined Bret Hart in ring skills as an art with league of its own

Jim Ross has said "If you look at all the variables and look at it objectively ...Shawn Michaels is the greatest who ever lived" "pure wrestling ability top one or 2 of all time...case closed" "when I think of the greats that Ive been able to see in person 2 names come to mind Ric Flair and Shawn Michaels"

Chris Jericho "Shawn Michaels is the greatest of all time"

HHH "best Ive ever been in the ring with Shawn hands down"

Ric Flair (arguably the greatest of all time) said "greatest wrestler ever to come out of WWE"

Cena "One of the greatest if not THE greatest of all time"

Kevin Nash & Scott Hall called Shawn the best ever...

Mick Foley said his match with Shawn was the greatest match of his career. "did a great job with the title in a very hard time.." "was the glue holding everything together"

Billy Gunn actually got in a confrontation with Bret Hart when he called Shawn the best in the world and Bret took offense to it while on a plane

Pat Patterson "you had to put up with Shawn outside the ring because when he was in the ring and once the bell rung he was the best no doubt about it."

Teddy Hart "Im gonna get in trouble for this but.... I think Shawn Michaels is the greatest of all time"

 

[HBK-aholic]

If you ask in Canada, the answer is Bret Hart. If you ask the unbiased world, they'll tell you it's Shawn Michaels. Both men are fantastic athletes, the business would not be the same without them. Both careers are also tainted, though it affects some fans more than others. For example, some fans still hold a personal hatred for how Shawn acted over a decade ago. Others hold a personal hatred for Hart due to how he left over a decade ago. Ah, some similarities I see.

Shawn is the better wrestler, and I think his legacy will therefore be better. But it's close - they're both amazing.

 

[andy zones]

i have actually saw all of these critically acclaimed Bret matches that your hart fans rave about and as far as technical wrestling bret hart has hbk, but Bret hart was also boring as shit he has the personality of a slug. he did the same exact moves in the same repetitive order every single time. HBK in his hay day was able to do every type of wrestling style successfully without you been bored. and its true that the ladder match was brought to the wwe by Bret, and they had the test ladder match on july 21 1992 in Maine at a house show. but notice Bret never had another one because athletically he was not capable of pulling off so while Bret hart did indeed introduce the match Hbk without an doubt revolutionized it. to me its HBK in a land slide. and its because most older people love a more boring style of wrestling. and to be honest Kurt Angle would destroy Bret Hart in an actual wrestling match! i highly doubt that hart could win a olympic gold medal. which kurt did with a broke neck! kurt was wasy better at actual wrestling and way more entertaining, there is just no space in modern wrestling for bret hart. while HBK is the superstar that ushered in the modern day style of wrestling in

Another true HBK Mark.
First of all this thread was all about expressing the views to decide who has the better legacy. Hart or HBk. Where the fuck angle came from.
You say angle going to destroy bret in the ring. For your correct information MR. Bosh , angle has himself called Bret the greatest wrestler of 20th century and expressed his willingness to wrestle Bret at wrestlemania.
You are right bret did repeat some of the moves during his match so whats wrong in it. Every wrestler has Permanent set of moves which they implement during their matches. Even your Hero HBK does the same body slam followed by Elbow drop then tunning for SCM. Believe me HBK moves are far more overrated than bret.Sometime one can wonder if they are watching wrestling or a circus.
Even the so called greatest wrestler of all time Flair does the same.
Any one who has proper sense for understanding a wrestling match can easily grasp what kind of story bret tried to tell in a wrestling match. Every move he did made some sort of sense and finally it led to the sharpshooter.
As for HBK he did sometimes act like a Dumb in the ring.
For those chumps who think bret did the same thing is ring every time he wrestled they should go watch...
Bret match with Austin (WM 13)....This match was completely opposite of bret match with austin at survivor series 96.
Bret s match against bulldog (summerslam 92) was completly opposite of his match against bulldog at INH
Even the match he had with owen at wrestlemania 10 was different from the match they had on raw.
GO watch Bret vs Perfect (SS91) then watch Bret Vs Perfect (KOR), You will definately understand wrestling at its best.

 

[andy zones]

And Vince said "I have to say..from an all around standpoint in the ring Shawn has no peers.. I think Shawn is in a class all by himself"



Austin said Shawn was one of the greatest of all time.. had the best timing in the history of the business and he's never seen shawn botch a move.



Angle said the match with Shawn at WM was his greatest match. Former stars even called Shawn and Kurt to say that it was the greatest match they had ever seen and that was what wrestling was all about. Like Bobby the Brain Heenan.. Jesse Ventura.. Paul Orndorff.. Chris Benoit.



Now I don't know if that is good for Bret or just really sad for Canada..who was #38 Mike Myers??



No not really... its sold very well but its not breaking "all kinds of records"



Jim Ross has said "If you look at all the variables and look at it objectively ...Shawn Michaels is the greatest who ever lived" "pure wrestling ability top one or 2 of all time...case closed" "when I think of the greats that Ive been able to see in person 2 names come to mind Ric Flair and Shawn Michaels"

Chris Jericho "Shawn Michaels is the greatest of all time"

HHH "best Ive ever been in the ring with Shawn hands down"

Ric Flair (arguably the greatest of all time) said "greatest wrestler ever to come out of WWE"

Cena "One of the greatest if not THE greatest of all time"

Kevin Nash & Scott Hall called Shawn the best ever...

Mick Foley said his match with Shawn was the greatest match of his career. "did a great job with the title in a very hard time.." "was the glue holding everything together"

Billy Gunn actually got in a confrontation with Bret Hart when he called Shawn the best in the world and Bret took offense to it while on a plane

Pat Patterson "you had to put up with Shawn outside the ring because when he was in the ring and once the bell rung he was the best no doubt about it."

Teddy Hart "Im gonna get in trouble for this but.... I think Shawn Michaels is the greatest of all time"

When i look at the persons whose opinion you have thrown in (except vince, angle, foley, austin, jr) I can only have a laugh . Really. you cant be serious

One can care less what guys like Ric Flair, HHH, Pat Patteson have to say about anyone. Offcourse they kiss each others ass so hard they even some time forget their own identity. They all are idiots who have made their living by kissing balls of their boss. But that s the story for another day.
Cena saying something about greatness also makes me laugh. We all know what kind of a wrestler cena himself is and if he distributes certificates of greatness to any one then believe me he is as great as cena.
If kurt angle says that his match with hbk is his best then i believe he is right because they truly had an great match. But Angle has never faced someone like Bret and he always regrets for that. Angle didnt call hbk the greatest he called bret. Same goes for Jericho.

Austin is right when he says that HBK s timing in a match is a classical stuff and yes it is. But did austin ever say that his match with hbk(WM14) was his best or hbk was the best wrestler he worked with...Hell NO..
Bret was the one who hand picked austin to work with him. Every one know HBK even Once refused to loose to austin at wm 14 because that s the kind of prick HBK really was back in the day. Austin Became famous by wrestling Bret like many others including HBK. Thats why wwe felted appropriate to invite austin for inducting Bret in HOF. What kind of Hike austin carrier recieved after his match with bret is well noted. HBK also came on the map after wrestling bret at wm12 which till date is hbk s greatest match. Before that shawn was only considered good for IC title.
Kevin Nash has said he and bret never discussed a single thing before the match and they only have to look each other in eye and they know they are going to put an instant classic. Nash never called HBK better than bret.
To add little bit more Undertaker has said that he enjoyed wrestling bret more than anyone . (even though he put an classic with HBK at HIAC)
Billy gun..Again a failure in his single carrier. Are you serious.
What kind of credibility his opinion carry.

And finally yes bret s dvd and book sold very well ....far better than hbk s book and dvd.

 

[jericho3150]

One can care less what guys like Ric Flair, HHH, Pat Patteson have to say about anyone. Offcourse they kiss each others ass so hard they even some time forget their own identity. They all are idiots who have made their living by kissing balls of their boss. But that s the story for another day.

LOL STOP!!! Your just grasping at straws at this point... Your trying to put your own opinions over the opinions of 3 first ballet hall of famers... Its beyond ridiculous. Flair has had one on the greatest most successful careers in the history of the business he's wrestled anyone who was anyone in the history of the biz. HHH one of the most successful wrestlers of the last 12 years... He's been on top of the business for many years now.. actually more years than Bret was on top and yet his opinion doesn't count?? and Patterson is a HUGE Bret fan... they didn't even tell him about the screwjob before hand because Pat was too good friends with Bret..he's been involved in wrestling for 4 decades yet again.. opinion differs from your so its null and void... AND just reminding you Shawn is not Flair..HHH..or Patterson boss... So the ball kissing thing is BS,

Cena saying something about greatness also makes me laugh. We all know what kind of a wrestler cena himself is and if he distributes certificates of greatness to any one then believe me he is as great as cena.

Again the biggest money draw of the last 5 years... Loved wrestling and studied it his whole life..actually wrestled the man and again.. his opinion is worthless..LOL

If kurt angle says that his match with hbk is his best then i believe he is right because they truly had an great match. But Angle has never faced someone like Bret and he always regrets for that. Angle didnt call hbk the greatest he called bret.

Same goes for Jericho.

Another hugely talented smart performer who your quick to shoot down for some unspecified reason. But that doesn't change the fact that Jericho (first undisputed chap... multiple time world..IC...tag..euro champ) WM maineventor said Shawn was the greatest ever regardless if you want to hear it or not.

Billy gun..Again a failure in his single carrier. Are you serious.
What kind of credibility his opinion carry.

Sorry its just the opinion of a person who has worked in the industry for many years with Bret and Shawn in the 90's.. I just think he might have a bit more insight into the business than some nameless faceless Bret Hart Mark on the internet..

In the end your really grabbing at straws to try to discredit some of the biggest names in wrestling... Its just silly.

 

[Queers and Steers]

Another true HBK Mark.
First of all this thread was all about expressing the views to decide who has the better legacy. Hart or HBk. Where the fuck angle came from.
You say angle going to destroy bret in the ring. For your correct information MR. Bosh , angle has himself called Bret the greatest wrestler of 20th century and expressed his willingness to wrestle Bret at wrestlemania.
You are right bret did repeat some of the moves during his match so whats wrong in it. Every wrestler has Permanent set of moves which they implement during their matches. Even your Hero HBK does the same body slam followed by Elbow drop then tunning for SCM. Believe me HBK moves are far more overrated than bret.Sometime one can wonder if they are watching wrestling or a circus.
Even the so called greatest wrestler of all time Flair does the same.
Any one who has proper sense for understanding a wrestling match can easily grasp what kind of story bret tried to tell in a wrestling match. Every move he did made some sort of sense and finally it led to the sharpshooter.
As for HBK he did sometimes act like a Dumb in the ring.
For those chumps who think bret did the same thing is ring every time he wrestled they should go watch...
Bret match with Austin (WM 13)....This match was completely opposite of bret match with austin at survivor series 96.
Bret s match against bulldog (summerslam 92) was completly opposite of his match against bulldog at INH
Even the match he had with owen at wrestlemania 10 was different from the match they had on raw.
GO watch Bret vs Perfect (SS91) then watch Bret Vs Perfect (KOR), You will definately understand wrestling at its best.

i know that every wrestler has a set up of moves that they use thats sets up finishers or them ending a mmatch i like to think of them as templates thats an pretty accurate thing to describe them as. but the only problem with with bret hart is that his whole match was a template, meaning that he did the same exact thing from start to finish. the Angle aspect is for all the idiots who really think that hart is the best pure wrestler or technical wrestler or whichever way you wanna word it. and i am aware of the fact that angle like and respects Hart, but does that nullify the fact that he could wrestle circles around Bret and quite frankly anyone who has ever done it. that would be problem for bret seeing how his only thing he brought to matches was usually the fact that he was the best wrestler in the match and he couldnt come close to out wrestling Kurt and hes not particularly god in all areas and all though HBK actually wrestled kurt most of the match , he also did some highflyin some brawling and showed why he is the best performer in the history of wrestling nobody sells moves or stories or shows more heart than HBK, which are aspects that he brings to the table that Hart never can or never will. thats fans are always so in to his matches even when it doesnt get a lot of build up or hype because they appreciate the work that he does for them Bret could never put on a show for the fans like hbk does. and thats whats wrestling to me is all about entertaining the fans while still having good wrestling ability and HBk can actually wrestle! i think he showed that vs Hart at wm12 as well against anglewm21 hes just so good in so many other areas that he doesnt get to focus on that all the time like bret who was a one trick pony period! Shawn Michaels has the bigger legacy than Bret because point blank he has the better matches! when fans and other wrestlers alike view your matches as the gold standard for matches than its kind of hard to disagree don't you think? and by the way im not just some HBK mark i saw evry pay per view for the four years and seven months that he was gone jack ass im a wrestling fan first and for most i just believe that HBK is without an doubt the best. its calmost hard to argue against that i mean Ric flair who is the only wrestler that gets as much if not more mention than hbk by fellow wrestlers as being the best said out of his own moutrh that HBK is "the best of all time, hes better than me, when it comes to been a worker in the ring hes in the league of his own" thats from wwe legends show on wwe 24/7 its was on the greatest moment episode of the series look it up you should be ableto find it somewhere. during Flairs speech at his HOF ceremony ' i know Shawn michaels had eclipsed me as the best, when i came home and my son reid asked me if i can do a moonsault like shawn Michaels" so basically theres almost no way to argue against HBKs legacy been bigger than hart seeing How all legends and current wrestlers rerspect the shit out of HBk not to mention the fans are always into his match at every venue he performs in. and respect is a huge part of a mans legacy is it not? and legends who were on record saying that didnt like shawn as a person, have also admitted that in tghe ring he was the greatest of all time, the million dollar man is one of those legends. its amazing when you hate somebody and yet you call them the best,.i think that speaks volumes of HBKs ability and his legacy. and people who base it off his attitude that is all 11 years and older. since his return he has been nothing short of an amazing person dp theres no negitive that can be made towards this man legacy he has it vall the respect the fans the matches and the list of things hes done for this company is un parralel hes not the best in any individual catagory but hes the only person top five in every catagory. shawn Michaels is in a league of his own and in my opinion his legacy crusehes bret harts, and how his legacy isnt even bigger is beyond me

 

[andy zones]

i know that every wrestler has a set up of moves that they use thats sets up finishers or them ending a mmatch i like to think of them as templates thats an pretty accurate thing to describe them as. but the only problem with with bret hart is that his whole match was a template, meaning that he did the same exact thing from start to finish.

Lol at your sense of understanding a wrestling match.

the Angle aspect is for all the idiots who really think that hart is the best pure wrestler or technical wrestler or whichever way you wanna word it.

In this entire thread i never called a single hbk fan an idiot for believing that hbk was the best according to them but here is a guy who says bret hart fan are idiots because they believe that bret was the best technical wrestler ever. I can easily give you a fitting reply but i dont want to go as low as you have gone in your reply. Its one thing arguing over matters but its an completly different thing when you disrespect the great fans of this biz. This clearly shows what kind of mark you really are.
and i am aware of the fact that angle like and respects Hart, but does that nullify the fact that he could wrestle circles around Bret and quite frankly anyone who has ever done it.

Do you really watch wrestling. Dont you know most of the moves angle does in wrestling are fully inspired from bret hart wrestling style. Even the punches he delivers have the sameness as that of bret s . The way he starts the match is very identical to that of bret. your argument regarding angle wrestling circles around bret is very good for a laugh. It s wrestling my dear friend. Its all about storytelling , if vince wants that eugene should outwrestle angle believe me its going to happen. But the way you are underestimating hart legacy is totally abstruse. You should know the family background bret is coming from. What kind of agony and pain this guy has went through in his dungeon to become a wrestler is monumental. But i know that you must be having an shit fit reply for that argument as well.

that would be problem for bret seeing how his only thing he brought to matches was usually the fact that he was the best wrestler in the match and he couldnt come close to out wrestling Kurt and hes not particularly god in all areas and all though HBK actually wrestled kurt most of the match , he also did some highflyin some brawling and showed why he is the best performer in the history of wrestling nobody sells moves or stories or shows more heart than HBK,
Ask vince who tells better stories

which are aspects that he brings to the table that Hart never can or never will.

thats fans are always so in to his matches even when it doesnt get a lot of build up or hype because they appreciate the work that he does for them Bret could never put on a show for the fans like hbk does. and thats whats wrestling to me is all about entertaining the fans while still having good wrestling ability and HBk can actually wrestle!
Wrestling is about wrestling and entertainment. Bret know wrestling better and hbk knows how to entertain.

i think he showed that vs Hart at wm12 as well against anglewm21 hes just so good in so many other areas that he doesnt get to focus on that all the time like bret who was a one trick pony period!

Angle VS HBK is mostly the copycat of Bret VS HBK(WM12), Just go and watch both these matches one after another you will see the similarities.

Shawn Michaels has the bigger legacy than Bret because point blank he has the better matches!
Again an opinion not an fact.

when fans and other wrestlers alike view your matches as the gold standard for matches than its kind of hard to disagree don't you think? and by the way im not just some HBK mark

You are a mark or not ,Well i guess we all know that .

i saw evry pay per view for the four years and seven months that he was gone jack ass im a wrestling fan first and for most i just believe that HBK is without an doubt the best.

Again an biased opinion
its calmost hard to argue against that i mean Ric flair who is the only wrestler that gets as much if not more mention than hbk by fellow wrestlers as being the best said out of his own moutrh that HBK is "the best of all time, hes better than me, when it comes to been a worker in the ring hes in the league of his own" thats from wwe legends show on wwe 24/7 its was on the greatest moment episode of the series look it up you should be ableto find it somewhere. during Flairs speech at his HOF ceremony ' i know Shawn michaels had eclipsed me as the best, when i came home and my son reid asked me if i can do a moonsault like shawn Michaels"

Flair believes in his mind that he was the best. I dont need to believe it. I know what kind of wrestler flair was. I have been watching him for 25 years now. "Total non stop phony Psychology " That s what Flair should be described acc to me.
so basically theres almost no way to argue against HBKs legacy been bigger than hart seeing

If flair agrument makes you believe that hbk was the best then be happy over your small moment of peace.

How all legends and current wrestlers rerspect the shit out of HBk not to mention the fans are always into his match at every venue he performs in.

Bret easily inclipse hbk in respect area...Just go into the past of both wrestlers to find out.

and respect is a huge part of a mans legacy is it not? and legends who were on record saying that didnt like shawn as a person, have also admitted that in tghe ring he was the greatest of all time, the million dollar man is one of those legends. its amazing when you hate somebody and yet you call them the best,.i think that speaks volumes of HBKs ability and his legacy.

Yes it speaks for legacy of hbk. But bret was a more respected as a person and as a wrestler.

and people who base it off his attitude that is all 11 years and older. since his return he has been nothing short of an amazing person dp theres no negitive that can be made towards this man legacy he has it vall the respect the fans the matches and the list of things hes done for this company is un parralel hes not the best in any individual catagory but hes the only person top five in every catagory. shawn Michaels is in a league of his own and in my opinion his legacy crusehes bret harts, and how his legacy isnt even bigger is beyond me

Good for you.
I never argued that hbk was not a great wrestler but for me bret will always be better as a human being and as a wrestler.If you still think all Bret hart fans are idiots then you are truly a true hbk fan. Hands down.

 

[jericho3150]

In this entire thread i never called a single hbk fan an idiot for believing that hbk was the best according to them but here is a guy who says bret hart fan are idiots because they believe that bret was the best technical wrestler ever. I can easily give you a fitting reply but i dont want to go as low as you have gone in your reply. Its one thing arguing over matters but its an completly different thing when you disrespect the great fans of this biz.

Sorry I... I just had to jump in your little.."promo" you were cutting on HBK96. That would be a very good argument to keep all this civil if it were true..... "Roll the footage Daddy-O"

For those fans thinking that HBK was a better wrestler than Bret, I think these guys.......dont use any type of brains while watching wrestling.

That was the opening of your FIRST post. And I know you'll defend it and you probably didn't mean it quite that way but there it is in black and white.

I know what kind of wrestler flair was. I have been watching him for 25 years now. "Total non stop phony Psychology " That s what Flair should be described acc to me.

Alright lets stop right there...is that what Flair is "acc to me"??? or is that what Flair is according to Bret?? I've seen all the Bret shoots and interviews.. Ive watched all the matches Ive read the book... and this is something straight out of there..LOL. At this point Id rather hear what you really believe and not just regurgitate the same thing Bret said and pass the opinion off on your own because best believe Im completely 100% sure you never said that about Flair til Bret said this.

Good for you.
I never argued that hbk was not a great wrestler but for me bret will always be better as a human being and as a wrestler.If you still think all Bret hart fans are idiots then you are truly a true hbk fan. Hands down.

Thats fine that is your opinion and to tell you the truth Im one of the fans on here that when someone says "Bret is the greatest and he's better than Shawn" I 100% disagree with that statement but I understand were your coming from... I understand why you might think that.. Because Bret was one of the greatest in ring performers ever.. Do I think he was the best?? Nah not really and I'll have fun arguing that.

Better human being?? Ive always felt that Shawn was no saint but neither was Bret. And even now after all these years Bret still comes across as a very jaded bitter man. Michaels has changed his life.. he has moved on.

Lets even compare the ending of each of their books(of which believe it or not I enjoyed Brets more)

Shawns book ends with him leaving wrestlemania 21 after putting on the match of a lifetime... skipping the Wrestlemania after party and going back to the hotel room and watching a movie and eating snacks with his wife and kids.

Brets book ends... and this is no lie.. The closing paragraph... "I will never forgive Shawn and Hunter....and then after 32 more words.. the book ends. As much as he says he's at peace and has moved on..the book that sums up his entire life... and his closing thought to leave the reader with is I will NEVER forgive Shawn. Sorry Bret I don't believe you when you say you have moved on.

I actually think Bret is doing more of a disservice to his legacy now more than ever.

 

[Emmet]

i have actually saw all of these critically acclaimed Bret matches that your hart fans rave about and as far as technical wrestling bret hart has hbk, but Bret hart was also boring as shit he has the personality of a slug. he did the same exact moves in the same repetitive order every single time. HBK in his hay day was able to do every type of wrestling style successfully without you been bored. and its true that the ladder match was brought to the wwe by Bret, and they had the test ladder match on july 21 1992 in Maine at a house show. but notice Bret never had another one because athletically he was not capable of pulling off so while Bret hart did indeed introduce the match Hbk without an doubt revolutionized it. to me its HBK in a land slide. and its because most older people love a more boring style of wrestling. and to be honest Kurt Angle would destroy Bret Hart in an actual wrestling match! i highly doubt that hart could win a olympic gold medal. which kurt did with a broke neck! kurt was wasy better at actual wrestling and way more entertaining, there is just no space in modern wrestling for bret hart. while HBK is the superstar that ushered in the modern day style of wrestling in

I don't believe I have read a more clueless post in my entire time here. Its just drivel, seriously what age are you? What has Angle got to do with HBK or Bret? absolutely nothing.

Bret didnt have another ladder match because Vince didn't want him to, simple as that, it wasn't Bret's choice. Having a blinding Steel cage match with Owen at Summerslam 94 calls for more athletic ability than climbing a 10 ft ladder every now and then. Bret without doubt had the athletic ability to do a ladder match.

Worst post ive ever read.

 

[Queers and Steers]

I don't believe I have read a more clueless post in my entire time here. Its just drivel, seriously what age are you? What has Angle got to do with HBK or Bret? absolutely nothing.

Bret didnt have another ladder match because Vince didn't want him to, simple as that, it wasn't Bret's choice. Having a blinding Steel cage match with Owen at Summerslam 94 calls for more athletic ability than climbing a 10 ft ladder every now and then. Bret without doubt had the athletic ability to do a ladder match.

Worst post ive ever read.

exactly Vince didn't want him to, because he knew that Shawn could carry the match farther than Hart could. i meamn why else would he have the first ever ladder match at a house show? dude most people dont even know of the ladder match between hart and michaels, let alone that it was for the ic title. dude Vince purposely had most fans thinking that HBK made the ladder match because he could have better ladder matches than Bret period. point blank dude he had the the first ladder match in company history at a hpouse show in maine, thats like having the first HIAC in alaska/ why would he waste such a potential high profile match with somebody the caliber of Bret Hart and Hbk at a fucking show in Maine if it just wasnt a test match that he didnt want to leak out/ 8i mean they really made it see m like Hbk vs razor at wrestrlemanina X(march 20,1994) was the first ladder match that they had ever been in the WWE and the first they had ever seen . and the sole purpose of that is Vince wanted to push shawn further in the company so he wanted to bill him as the innovator of a big match and he had all of the ability to do something amazing things within the ladder macth. things, that may i remind you would have been out of character for Bret, like bret would do a splash off the top of a ladder? and i simply mentioned Angle for all those Hart fans that still try to hang on to the old fact that Bret was the best technical wrestler of all time so in the context i would say that it made perfect sense

 

[titans]

"if you ask canada they will say bret hart, the unbias world will say shawn michaels"

sorry, but michaels drew nowhere near the amount of dollars hart did worldwide, which means hart had a bigger influence on the wrestling community worldwide....hitman, for example, won most popular athlete in europe consecutive years and once voted most popular athlete in japan....the current generation of fans are going to prefer shawn michaels.....knowledgeable wrestling fans will take bret hart....gather up wrestling fans as a whole (past and present) bret hart would win this with more than 60% of the vote...guarantee it.

 

[jericho3150]

but michaels drew nowhere near the amount of dollars hart did worldwide, which means hart had a bigger influence on the wrestling community worldwide....

Thats like saying N-sync and had a bigger influence on music than The Ramones.. Or Sex Pistol or even Nirvana. When it comes to legacy Shawn already has it in the bag. Bret even admitted.. "When I watch wrestling now I don't see any Bret Harts anymore"

And lets not try to pretend Bret was this worldwide phenom because if that were the case Vince wouldn't have let him go to WCW.

I think right now Bret is working hard to sculpt his legacy for us instead of history doing its job. Thats why Bret constantly has to tell us that he was the best wrestler...aaaand that he was the most professional person ever..aaand his matches were the best matches....i really wonder sometimes who he's trying to convince.... Shawn doesn't say that because his fans and peers already do.

 

[titans]

Facts are Facts.....There's nothing you can do to spin them....I'm sensing some of the younger fans missed out on Bret as states earlier.....You can't pretend you know it all on the man because he was likely before your time.....Bret Hart was the WWF/E top moneymaker four consecutive years 94-97 despite not being champ the whole time....Bret Hart sold out venues worldwide as champ better than Shawn Michaels....Bret Hart, again, won most popular athlete in Europe consecutive years and is widely known for a strong fanbase all over Asia and North America.....Look at the way his dvd and autobiography have sold.....Think Shawn Michaels had that kind of backing?....That answer is no....Shawn and Bret were both tremendous in-ring performers with very different (and very effective) styles...Bret had been putting on five-star matches for 24 years....This question of who has the bigger legacy boils down to who had the bigger impact worldwide.....The correct answer is Bret Hart

The WWF and Bret Hart parting ways imo had nothing to do with Bret's drawing power....He was one of the stronger international draws the company ever had....In 1997, WWF made 100 million more in revenue than WCW thanks to the WWF's ppvs...Bret Hart had alot to do with that thanks in part to a new and very effective heel character....Bret getting heel reaction in one country and babyface reaction everywhere else says alot about his worldwide fame....His fued with Steve Austin was probably the best of the 90s and paved the way for the Attitude Era....Bret happened to win the strap twice that year....Shawn Michaels was a fantastic wrestler but he doesn't have the name recognition of a Bret Hart and that's a fact.

Bret supposedly "working hard to sculpt his legacy" is a little bit exaggerated....I guess you have been visiting his website, lol.....That's almost to say the fans see him as unworthy of being a legend, so the Hitman has to go out and promote his legacy....The WWE did a poll in 2004 on who the fans thought was the greatest champion ever....Guess who won that?....Yep, Bret "Hitman" Hart.....Frankly, just about every wrestling legend out there is going to toot their own horn to some degree...Everybody knows (including Bret) that his legacy was cemented a long time ago...Bret, like Hogan or Flair, have the right to express how they impacted the industry...They are legends so they have earned that right.

 

[jericho3150]

I'm sensing some of the younger fans missed out on Bret as states earlier.....You can't pretend you know it all on the man because he was likely before your time.....Bret Hart was the WWF/E top moneymaker four consecutive years 94-97 despite not being champ the whole time....

Before my time?? Boss.. grew up watching Bret Hart.. I was there from the beginning of Brets career in the WWF.. I watch and cheered along as he elevated to mainevent status.. and I did the same for Shawn. So please don't try to use "if you didn't like Bret better than Shawn you must not have been around thing"

Bret Hart, again, won most popular athlete in Europe consecutive years

And Germans love David Hasselhoff.. what your point?? Bret drew very well overseas... by the standards back then. But the overseas markets are a tiny small fraction of profit.. What Bret was hearing back then is the same thing Rey Mysterio is hearing right now about being over in overseas markets and mainly with the hispanic audience.

In 1997, WWF made 100 million more in revenue than WCW thanks to the WWF's ppvs...Bret Hart had alot to do with that thanks in part to a new and very effective heel character....

1997?? Where was this huge drawing power of Brets when Wrestlemania 13 drew the single lowest rating of any wrestlemania EVER a .77
The year before Bret and Shawn drew a 1.2
The year after Shawn and Austin drew a 2.3
2007 Shawn Michaels and Johns Cena drew a 2.97 which was the highest in 18 years.

Bret supposedly "working hard to sculpt his legacy" is a little bit exaggerated....I guess you have been visiting his website, lol.....That's almost to say the fans see him as unworthy of being a legend, so the Hitman has to go out and promote his legacy....

Haha I really feel that way.. I mean the fact of the matter is that in the ring I take nothing away from Bret the guy was great. But I've seen his DVD.. Ive seen his shoots.. Ive read his book.. and I tend to agree the Bret is Brets biggest fan. I think Bret is definately a legend.. But I don't consider his "the greatest of all time" like he does. I feel that he is now trying to really shape his legacy into being bigger than it was instead of just being happy with the one he has now.. "Greatest in ring storyteller of all time"

The WWE did a poll in 2004 on who the fans thought was the greatest champion ever....Guess who won that?....Yep, Bret "Hitman" Hart

LOL Thanks for bringing that up... You know how I knew the answer?? Because Bret Hart posted links to the website asking his fans to go vote for him. To me that just made me laugh but it was also kinda sad that he cared enough about this goofy poll to try to recruit help to win it..

.....Frankly, just about every wrestling legend out there is going to toot their own horn to some degree...Everybody knows (including Bret) that his legacy was cemented a long time ago...Bret, like Hogan or Flair, have the right to express how they impacted the industry...They are legends so they have earned that right.

Your right I have no problem with tooting your own horn a big.. but what Bret does has got to be beyond that... At this point he's a complete egomaniac which is what people have called him for years.

 

[ZEUS]

Chris Jericho "Shawn Michaels is the greatest of all time"

HHH "best Ive ever been in the ring with Shawn hands down"

Ric Flair (arguably the greatest of all time) said "greatest wrestler ever to come out of WWE"

Cena "One of the greatest if not THE greatest of all time"

Kevin Nash & Scott Hall called Shawn the best ever...

Mick Foley said his match with Shawn was the greatest match of his career. "did a great job with the title in a very hard time.." "was the glue holding everything together"

Billy Gunn actually got in a confrontation with Bret Hart when he called Shawn the best in the world and Bret took offense to it while on a plane

Pat Patterson "you had to put up with Shawn outside the ring because when he was in the ring and once the bell rung he was the best no doubt about it."

Teddy Hart "Im gonna get in trouble for this but.... I think Shawn Michaels is the greatest of all time"

Most of this list is not exactly good evidence. The only opinion here worth really looking at is Patterson. Here is why:

HHH/Flair/Nash/Hall/Gunn: One of HBK's best friends, and has had a personal beef with The Hitman

Cena: True statement, but he would probably say the exact same thing about Bret.

Foley- Never really had a big time match against Bret. Again, nobody is doubting that HBK was great, but this Foley statement doesn't prove that he thinks HBK is better than Bret.

Jericho- I have heard him say the exact same about Bret...

Teddy Hart- he wrestles a spot monkey style, like HBK did when he was younger. I would be even more worried about Teddy's future in the business if he didn't feel like the style he uses is the best.

So considering those points, out of that entire list, you have supplied ONE unbiased opinion. I'm sure I could find one WWE insider who would state that Bret was the best ever too.

The fact remains that both were great, and both were easily top 5 of all time on any credible list. Who's legacy is bigger? Outside of the US it is easily Bret. Inside the US, its probably pretty close to split. Take that for what it is worth.

 

[titans]

jericho3150,

Congratulations on doing a great job spinning just about everything I said....This discussion on who has the bigger legacy boils down to who had the more dominant impact worldwide....Your previous statement didn't refute the facts I had given earlier...It's funny how you conveniently skipped over the simple fact that Bret was the companies top moneymaker four consecutive years despite not being champ the whole time....Bret Hart being voted most popular athlete in europe consecutive years coincides with the fact he sold out venues in Europe and Asia far better than anyone else on the roster...Rey Mysterio as talented as he is has nowhere near the international fame Bret does.

Source: Wrestling Observer Newsletter

April 1994 - March 1995
Earnings: $87,352,000
Loss of $4,431,000

April 1995 - March 1996
Earnings: $85,815,000
Profit of $3,319,000

April 1996 - March 1997
Earnings: $81,863,000
Profit of $6,505,000

April 1997 - March 1998
Earnings: $126,231,000
Profit of $8,466,000

1996 was probably WWF's worst year ever....Shawn Michaels happened to be built as the #1 star that year....He was probably the worst drawing champion in the history of the WWF/E.....To compare how the Bret/Austin WM13 match drew to WM23 Cena/Michaels match is laughable....First, Bret/Austin wasn't even booked as the main-event on the card....The aftermath of the match happened to catipult Steve Austin to new heights, which makes the match a real winner in the longterm.....The card for Mania 13 has been widely considered one of the worst overall....Cena/Michaels was the main-event on the card for WM23....I do like to point out the main staged rivalry happened to be Donald Trump and Vince McMahon with a certain massive draw (Steve Austin) as a referee....In 1997, WWF was getting stiff competition from WCW....In 2007, the only real competition the WWE had (and still has) is TNA....Big big difference....You can't compare these two matches in terms of draws.

Bret's dvd and autobiography have both been widely considered two of the greatest pieces of work ever on a wrestler....They both happen to be two of the best selling as well (far better than Michaels)....That's pretty impressive for a guy who supposedly has to promote his legacy, lol....The real reason his stuff has sold well is because a strong majority know Hart has a strong rep with professional wrestling fans and the general public alike with his great career and numerous charitable activities/donations....If you are one who read Bret's autobiography with your eyes closed (or a closed mind) then yes he would probably come off as egotistical....If you read it with an open mind, you can see while he does have an ego, he's also quite critical of himself and gives great insight into the world of professional wrestling....It's easily one of the greatest autobiographies ever and countless agree with me.

LOL Thanks for bringing that up... You know how I knew the answer?? Because Bret Hart posted links to the website asking his fans to go vote for him. To me that just made me laugh but it was also kinda sad that he cared enough about this goofy poll to try to recruit help to win it..

This is a classic example of your spin....Millions of people voted on who they felt was the greatest world champ, ic champ, and tag-team champs....First, I never heard of such a thing Bret recruiting people to vote for him....If it's true, how many people you think visited Hart's website during this span that would be sufficient enough to sway the vote?...Did you happen to visit the other legends sites as well?.....Let's be a little more reasonable than that, lol....The bottom line is Hart won greatest champ and ic champ of all-time....The Hart Foundation were voted the greatest tag-team of all-time...No more rubbish, please