Who Had More Impact On Wrestling History; Kevin Nash Or Randy Savage?

[Makaveli31]

Yeah, man. I was there. I saw and heard the weekly crowd reactions. I saw and heard who others were talking about. Randy Savage was more over than Kevin Nash. I'm sorry that you dismiss that as "conjecture" while tossing out bullshit like "you're a kid that wasn't there, can't get that from the Network. Hart would NOT have worked." LOL.

Those are my opinions but they are based off of FACT. FACT: Bret Hart FAILED to get over in WCW either as a heel or babyface. What makes you think he could replace Kevin Nash?

That's not BS that is an opinion based off of FACT.

As far as Savage or Nash? THAT is conjecture. I can make a case as good for Nash as you can for Savage. The FACT is Nash held a leadership position both on-screen and off as founding member of the NWO, World Tag Team Champion, World Heavyweight Champion. and backstage booker. Savage never held such positions. That's a fact jack,

 

[Makaveli31]

I'm purely referring to the years 1996-2001 BTW since you made the statement Nash was NEVER as over as Savage.

 

[LBGetBack]

I'm purely referring to the years 1996-2001 BTW since you made the statement Nash was NEVER as over as Savage.

Why would you use only a specific timeframe? I'm talking about over their entire careers. 2001? Did Savage even still wrestle?

 

[Makaveli31]

Why would you use only a specific timeframe? I'm talking about over their entire careers. 2001? Did Savage even still wrestle?

First off, Nash was never as over as Savage was. Never. So save the BS. You thought Nash was cool. Fine. Nobody cares though.

You posted the above quote and you said NEVER. So I chose a time period when both were in WCW at the same time. We can go by their entire career also. My point is Kevin Nash had more of an IMPACT economically on the business itself. We can debate their in-careers till the cows come home it won't matter. Neither was Hulk Hogan or Steve Austin. BUT the influence Nash wielded was greater than Savage's because

A) You had the power and influence of the "Kliq" in the WWF

B) Signing the first guaranteed million dollar contract (besides Hogan) in the business which led to a dramatic upshoot in the pay of wrestlers' and led to Vince giving out guaranteed contracts

C) His influence behind the scenes at WCW unofficially and officially as booker in 1999 which steered the direction of the company for almost a year.

D) And let's face it. He was ground zero in the dramatic rise and fall of a multi-million dollar company and the ONLY competition to Vince.

If that's isn't IMPACT I don't know what is.

 

[Makaveli31]

On a side note. I personally enjoyed Macho Man's persona ALOT more than I did Nash's with the exception of when Nash was paired with Scott Hall. Yes, Savage was better in all facets inside the ring. No one will dispute that. But as far as IMPACT on the business itself Kevin Nash was a lightning rod of controversy. No one can deny that so that is why I went with Kevin Nash.

 

[TEIWCSCSAATBHPHASP]

On a side note. I personally enjoyed Macho Man's persona ALOT more than I did Nash's with the exception of when Nash was paired with Scott Hall. Yes, Savage was better in all facets inside the ring. No one will dispute that. But as far as IMPACT on the business itself Kevin Nash was a lightning rod of controversy. No one can deny that so that is why I went with Kevin Nash.

Agreed @Makaveli31. I in fact state my solid agreement with you regarding the real logic, facts, truth and evidence that most of the IWC otherwise are too self-absorbed to realize, being clouded by their anti-Nash bias just because he doesn't fit their typical workrate wrestler mold. Mind you, Scott Steiner was once a workrate wrestler in the late 1980s/early-to-mid 1990s before he became Big Poppa Pump in 1998, and that's what put them off from liking him again ever since.

 

[Goldie]

Randy Savage hands down.

People may harp on about him being #2 to Hogan.... but how could anyone take Hogans spot in that era? Savage did a fine job as champ in 1988-89 and drew exceptionally well too.
The NWO treated Nash very well.... but again Hogan had the top spot in the group didn't he?

Savage had that instinctive rock n' roll voice, was one of the best in ring performers of his era and was equally comfortable playing a beloved babyface or a mega mega heel.

Savage is top 20 of all time. Its not even close comparing him to Nash.

 

[THTRobtaylor]

What's scary is that, unlike Makeveli and Scott Steiner's boyfriend, you're normally one I consider a credible poster on these forums..yet you conclude that Nash had the better in-ring career?? There's nothing objective or rational about this statement. We're all entitled to opinions and I do respect your opinion more than most around here. But just a fair warning. You will lose a ton of respect and credibility when you try to make the impossible claim that Nash had a better in-ring career. An in-ring career has nothing to do with how many world titles they place around your waist. An in-ring career should be looked at primarily as how you touched audiences with your character. Kevin Nash as a singles wrestler was artificially pushed (most often by himself). Nash's in-ring career owes everything to the guys he was surrounded by. He comes nowhere near Savage on any level. You cannot discount Savage's time without a world title because that was a period when titles were held for years. And you cannot discount Savage's time before WWE. He didn't even join WWE until he was almost 33. He had blown audience away for a good decade before WWE. And it was only a decade after this when Randy was 44 that wrestling boomed and companies were getting 2 prime time shows and 6 hours each a week. Could you imagine how huge Savage would have been if he had been 24 (or even 34) in 1996 rather than 44? What's Jericho 44 or 45? If he had been 20 years older, he would never have held one world title between 1985-1998 with all the main event draws competing with Savage. As much as I love Jericho, he's a perfect example of what I'm saying. Would Jericho have a shitty in-ring career compared to say Kevin Owens if wrestling reached its all time peak in 2017? No way. Jericho is lucky to have been a young guy when wrestling got huge. Could you imagine Savage at 24 to 45 like Jericho with 12 ppvs a year instead of 4? Could you imagine Savage as a young guy on your TV 6 hours a week instead of 1 or 2 (or not at all)? Savage's in-ring career cannot be defined through the rose coloured mid 1990s lens or through world title victories (Randy Orton can win 30 world titles, he's still never going to be considered anywhere near as impactful as Daniel Bryan or even Ricky Steamboat). The NWO period was the twilight of Savage's career. Much like the Owens-Jericho partnership is the twilight of Jericho's. We don't conclude Jericho's worth on a small timeframe we remember well. We take his entire career into account.

This is a total misnomer...

Savage WASN'T 24... he had built a career over a period of time, which had been stellar in its own way, but had also wound down to the point Vince didn't want him in the ring. Savage phoned in much of the 91-92 period in the ring as he had issues with Liz so that period doesn't really "count". Likewise the Macho King era as a whole wasn't great... it just wasn't... mainly down to the poor booking, not of WHO he worked, but how the angles played out. Vince was more worried about making Dusty look the shits than the effect it had on Savage.

My point on Nash is VERY valid. This was a guy who in the space of not even 18 months left WCW's lower mid-card, came to WWE as a bodyguard and was able to learn and improve at a MASSIVELY impressive rate to the point he was a then Grand Slam champ... holding the IC, Tag and World title in that period.

Whatever you think about Nash drawing as champ, you're probably wrong. The issue was never what Diesel did... it was how weak the booking and characters on the rest of the show were that let WCW into contention. During that period of Diesel winning those belts he was putting on GREAT matches and learning. Taker did the same thing when he was given the chance instead of facing monster of the week.

You're saying "Randy only got to WWF at 33 and Nash booked himself..." Who's territory did Savage spend most of his time in? His fathers... so if Nash "self booking" discounts him then so does Savage's time working for Angelo get discounted.

It's not a popular view, as Savage is beloved and rightfully a legend... but very few guys have been able to do what Nash did in barely 3 years... go from Vinnie Vegas to starting the NWO as the defecting top guy... keep that success going and THEN actually have a half decent career as a part-timer.

Savage had a period of 2 and a bit years where he was THE man in the WWF and maybe a year or so before he got there in Memphis... He put on some great matches and work but it was only really that period. The rest was coasting either off his dad being the owner or his former glories. Nash may not have had "as long" toiling as Randy, but pretty much everything he touched turned to gold for him from 94 to 2003... Sadly there are more and more guys than ever who you could argue had better careers than Savage now... Jericho, Kurt Angle, Edge, Orton and Cena are all in that conversation along with Nash.

 

[FlairFan2003]

Savage had a better in ring career, in part because he wrestled full time almost uninterrupted from the late 70s to 1999 and remained a main eventer the entire time, in that era it's hard to think of anyone outside of Hogan & Flair who enjoyed success through three eras of wrestling (the end of the territories, the 80s/Big Two, The Monday Night Wars).

However, I still chose Nash as his hardball contract negotiations lead to a major change in wrestler pay, guaranteed contracts became the norm, not the exception that only the likes of Brett Hart, Flair, Hogan, & Savage had. WCW was slowly moving in this area already (WWE mostly wasn't) although it was still just core essential guys like Sting who enjoyed those deals. A lot of secondary and younger performers didn't have guaranteed deals and virtually no one got much (if anything) from merchandise.

Nash & Halll were relative newcomers to the main event scene who negotiated guaranteed deals and got merchandising perks originally saved for only the biggest of established stars. The ripple effect was huge.....WCW was pressured to extend such deals to other performers while WWE was pressured to start offering them on a regular basis or risk more stars jumping ship. With the double edged sword of the industry as a whole in a down turn coinciding with WCW's upswing WWE couldn't afford not to cave on the issue. It remains a huge change in the business model of the industry that exists two decades later and likely isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

Savage never changed anything like that. He deserves massive props for his ability to remain a big time attraction and moneymaker longer than just about anyone not named Hogan or Flair and realistically he likely could have extended his career a few years longer and returned to WWE if he had wanted. Savage had a great career, main evented WrestleManias, Summer Slams, Starrrcades, and SuperBrawls, a major performer for both companies during the Monday Night Wars, legendary matches on big shows vs Hogan, Flair, Steamboat, DiBiase, Lex Luger, helped elevate DDP into top tier player, worked with Dusty Rhodes, The Undertaker, Jake Roberts, was a detested heel and a beloved fan favorite. But Nash, who also had great moments as a heel & face, main evented Manias & Starrcades, and was involved in two of the biggest angles of the 1990s (The NWO Invasion & Goldberg's Streak) also had a comparable in ring career success wise (comparable, not quite as good but comparable) but the influence he had on behind the scenes changes (not too mention the fact the promotional style of the industry changed to a darker, edgier product largely due to his influence on the original NWO storyline) I think gives him the edge as to who had the greatest impact on the industry as a whole.

 

[FlairFan2003]

.. Sadly there are more and more guys than ever who you could argue had better careers than Savage now... Jericho, Kurt Angle, Edge, Orton and Cena are all in that conversation along with Nash.

I don't think any of those guys had better careers than Savage. Jericho has been a mid carder almost all of his career and a part timer for about half of it (a part timer who disappears sometimes for nearly a year at a time). Savage was a front line top of the card star almost exclusively his entire career and other than a two year hiatus in broadcasting after his divorce that time frame is huge (late 70s to 1999).

Edge only had a few years post 2005 as a main eventer after a steady climb to the top that ended prematurely due to injury. You can compare Edge talent wise like comparing Gayle Sayers to Jim Brown or Barry Sanders talent wise but in terms of careers it isn't close, Brown & Sanders dominated for decades and Sayers really only had about three years (due to injuries).

Randy Orton has been a steady hand for many years, I can see him in a few more years if he stays in The World Title Picture being comparable. Remember Randy was a legit World Title contender virtually every year from 1986-99, and wrestled for the title in almost every one of those years. Orton has been on the scene since around 2004, 13 years, much of that time in the title scene, he's comparable but not quite there.

 

[LBGetBack]

This is a total misnomer...

Savage WASN'T 24... he had built a career over a period of time, which had been stellar in its own way, but had also wound down to the point Vince didn't want him in the ring. Savage phoned in much of the 91-92 period in the ring as he had issues with Liz so that period doesn't really "count". Likewise the Macho King era as a whole wasn't great... it just wasn't... mainly down to the poor booking, not of WHO he worked, but how the angles played out. Vince was more worried about making Dusty look the shits than the effect it had on Savage.

My point on Nash is VERY valid. This was a guy who in the space of not even 18 months left WCW's lower mid-card, came to WWE as a bodyguard and was able to learn and improve at a MASSIVELY impressive rate to the point he was a then Grand Slam champ... holding the IC, Tag and World title in that period.

Whatever you think about Nash drawing as champ, you're probably wrong. The issue was never what Diesel did... it was how weak the booking and characters on the rest of the show were that let WCW into contention. During that period of Diesel winning those belts he was putting on GREAT matches and learning. Taker did the same thing when he was given the chance instead of facing monster of the week.

You're saying "Randy only got to WWF at 33 and Nash booked himself..." Who's territory did Savage spend most of his time in? His fathers... so if Nash "self booking" discounts him then so does Savage's time working for Angelo get discounted.

It's not a popular view, as Savage is beloved and rightfully a legend... but very few guys have been able to do what Nash did in barely 3 years... go from Vinnie Vegas to starting the NWO as the defecting top guy... keep that success going and THEN actually have a half decent career as a part-timer.

Savage had a period of 2 and a bit years where he was THE man in the WWF and maybe a year or so before he got there in Memphis... He put on some great matches and work but it was only really that period. The rest was coasting either off his dad being the owner or his former glories. Nash may not have had "as long" toiling as Randy, but pretty much everything he touched turned to gold for him from 94 to 2003... Sadly there are more and more guys than ever who you could argue had better careers than Savage now... Jericho, Kurt Angle, Edge, Orton and Cena are all in that conversation along with Nash.

1991-92......Savage had a phenomenal Wrestlemania match with the Ultimate Warrior of all people. Then he had an all time great feud featuring multiple strong matches with Jake Roberts, and then had another phenomenal Wrestlemania match with Ric Flair. How did he "phone it in"? I mean, after Mania 8 things were kindve nondescript. But I think he had a strong 1991 and a strong start to '92. Imagine what he could've done if he wasn't stuck trying to carry the Warrior and an unmotivated Flair on his back for the rest of '92. A proper 1 on 1 feud with Razor Ramon, a feud with Shawn Michaels, a feud with Bret Hart.....all likely would've been great.

Your last point is pretty ridiculous, by the way. Show at least an attempt to put the era these guys wrestled in, into some type of context. LOL at someone like Randy Orton having a better career than Randy Savage. Good God. I mean, Jason Kidd sits WAY above Larry Bird on the career three pointers list. Jason Kidd....the guy who rightfully earned the name Ason Kidd (because he had no J) above the guy who was considered the best shooter in basketball in the 80s. Gotta put the era's into context. The 3 pointer was not a big part of the game in the 80s. In fact, it was barely used at all until the late 80s. But it was a huge part of the game for Kidd's entire career. Same idea with saying someone like Orton or Jericho or Edge did more than Savage. Yeah, they won more belts....because they wrestled in an era with 637 different belts available and 458 PPV's per year.

 

[THTRobtaylor]

1991-92......Savage had a phenomenal Wrestlemania match with the Ultimate Warrior of all people. Then he had an all time great feud featuring multiple strong matches with Jake Roberts, and then had another phenomenal Wrestlemania match with Ric Flair. How did he "phone it in"? I mean, after Mania 8 things were kindve nondescript. But I think he had a strong 1991 and a strong start to '92. Imagine what he could've done if he wasn't stuck trying to carry the Warrior and an unmotivated Flair on his back for the rest of '92. A proper 1 on 1 feud with Razor Ramon, a feud with Shawn Michaels, a feud with Bret Hart.....all likely would've been great.

Your last point is pretty ridiculous, by the way. Show at least an attempt to put the era these guys wrestled in, into some type of context. LOL at someone like Randy Orton having a better career than Randy Savage. Good God. I mean, Jason Kidd sits WAY above Larry Bird on the career three pointers list. Jason Kidd....the guy who rightfully earned the name Ason Kidd (because he had no J) above the guy who was considered the best shooter in basketball in the 80s. Gotta put the era's into context. The 3 pointer was not a big part of the game in the 80s. In fact, it was barely used at all until the late 80s. But it was a huge part of the game for Kidd's entire career. Same idea with saying someone like Orton or Jericho or Edge did more than Savage. Yeah, they won more belts....because they wrestled in an era with 637 different belts available and 458 PPV's per year.

That;s kind of the point.. you have to go with what they "push" in each era as the equialent... by your logic is anyone better than Kareem? Stats say no... but revisionist theory says yes...cos the game changed.

Orton is closest to Savage in not quite being a top, top, franchise guy... but close enough to carry the company for the odd period, exactly what Randy Savage was...

It's not a slight on either guy... it's an important role and if you can't be THE guy, be second or third... but be in the conversation... but don't for a second think Orton or Savage were the golden goose... indeed, without Liz, Randy never even gets what he got... FACT!

 

[LBGetBack]

That;s kind of the point.. you have to go with what they "push" in each era as the equialent... by your logic is anyone better than Kareem? Stats say no... but revisionist theory says yes...cos the game changed.

Orton is closest to Savage in not quite being a top, top, franchise guy... but close enough to carry the company for the odd period, exactly what Randy Savage was...

It's not a slight on either guy... it's an important role and if you can't be THE guy, be second or third... but be in the conversation... but don't for a second think Orton or Savage were the golden goose... indeed, without Liz, Randy never even gets what he got... FACT!

Randy Orton is not nearly as important in his era as Randy Savage was in his, and Orton's era is not nearly as important as Savage's era in the big picture of wrestling history. FACTS. Savage was the guy stealing the show at Wrestlemania every year. Savage was the guy putting on matches that everyone that followed held up as the gold standard.....matches that completely changed the industry. Savage was both the greatest foil and friend to the biggest superstar in wrestling history in one of the two biggest era's in wrestling history.

Sorry. Orton doesn't measure up. He's merely a good worker in an extended nondescript era who can never maintain his heel heat or face momentum for longer than a few months at a time. A guy that has had a good career, but has never quite fully hit the way we all once hoped he would.