Who Had More Impact On Wrestling History; Kevin Nash Or Randy Savage?

[Makaveli31]

Replace Nash in the NWO with....take your pick.....Sid, Vader, HBK, Taker, Hart, etc. and it still works just the same.

Are you kidding me?!? Sid?!? LOL. Sid had no where NEAR the charisma of Nash. He flaed out as a member of the Horsemen because he could not talk. Sid was intense. Nash was cool which is what the NWO was. They didn't sweat anything or anyone and even if they did they would not show it. Sid is opposite. Always screaming and yelling. Not a fit for the NWO.

Again Bret. No where near the speaking skills of Nash. Bret was a leader also his style would have clashed with Hogan's (as we saw when Bret went to WCW) Nash's style played off of Hogan's well, same goes for HBK.

'Taker was a loner. No faction for him.

 

[Spidey Revivey]

Kevin Nash was champion when wrestling was at a lull. Randy Savage split the spotlight with Hulk Hogan from time to time. Nash was integral to the NWO just as much as Scott Hall. Are we to argue that Hall has made more of an impact than Savage? Because that's absurd. Kevin Nash booked himself wisely throughout his career, but Macho Madness was loved by the fans when wrestling was popular. This isn't even an argument on who is the better wrestler, because Savage obviously. This is about impact in wrestling history, which is still Savage.

Oh yeah.

 

[THTRobtaylor]

The answer is BOTH affected the business, in many ways more than other wrestlers ever did.

Savage was the first guy to carry the WWF instead of Hogan, and he proved not only could it be done, but could be done with no perceivable drop in quality or business for having a "smaller" champion. While it was never a long term gig for him, Randy hit the markers set for him during those two title runs.

Those quoting Nash's switch as his impact, incorrect... Savage jumped first... remember Hogan was a free agent for a while when he signed to WCW. Savage was under contract to WWF, it expired and he signed.. he was pretty much gone from WWF within a week. Remember that awkward "goodbye" from Vince... no other wrestler who jumped ship ever got that.

While he may not have debuted in the same way as Nash and Hall, it was the first time a BIG name had publically told Vince and the WWF, "Thank's but no thanks, I'll go to WCW" even Luger did it before Nash and Hall... and he was on a WWF PPV the night before. When you think about it, Nash and Hall had been off WWF TV for a while, with Nash's last act being to take the Tombstone... Savage was there one week, gone the next... as was Luger. It was a shock to see then in WCW, but it's tenuous and self aggrandizing on all their parts to actually say people thought they were WWF contracted then.

Where Nash and Hall made the impact on the BUSINESS is one simple thing. Safe Harbour.

Forget the guaranteed contracts for a moment, Nash and Hall had something known as Safe Harbour and were the first to have it. That meant if WCW hired ANYONE or gave ANYONE a new deal that was bigger than theirs, they HAD to be given the same...automatically. When WCW were offering Bret 3m a year... that meant they were offering Hall and Nash 3m a year too... When Goldberg was getting 5m... so were they...

That was arguably the single biggest mistake WCW/Eric ever made... as once they had it, all the players had to have it and you created a situation where a payrise for one, was a payrise for all.

Today there is a version of it in WWE - No one will be able to get "more" on a basic contract than Cena and Taker... no one will get a bigger cut of their image rights than those two either...so they sign Brock or Goldberg to silly money, that means Cena and Taker are getting a bump.

But make no mistake both Savage and Nash have equal claim and impact - just in different ways and times that changed the business forever.

If you're talking in ring career? Then on balance I'm afraid Nash gets the nod, by virtue of his meteoric rise, number of titles and angles involved in. Savage had a GREAT career, but at it's peak he had the same 1 year as the top guy in the WWF - he lost to Hogan, Nash beat Michaels... Sure Randy got a second title at Mania, but it was clearly a "goodbye" in Vince's eyes.

Where Savage had the "better" career is in terms of body of work. You can point to Savage and say he did better in the ring for longer than Nash did... but ultimately there were many years of toil and drudgery when he was passed his best and on his way to the top. The Macho King time was pretty tepid... as was his latter NWO runs and TNA... As good as his early stuff was, he didn't hit WWF stride until the Steamboat feud...

Nash condensed his career into a shorter time but did more in that time.

 

[TEIWCSCSAATBHPHASP]

Kevin Nash was champion when wrestling was at a lull. Randy Savage split the spotlight with Hulk Hogan from time to time. Nash was integral to the NWO just as much as Scott Hall. Are we to argue that Hall has made more of an impact than Savage? Because that's absurd. Kevin Nash booked himself wisely throughout his career, but Macho Madness was loved by the fans when wrestling was popular. This isn't even an argument on who is the better wrestler, because Savage obviously. This is about impact in wrestling history, which is still Savage.

Oh yeah.

Spidey, wrestling to great five-star matches can only get you so far in the card. Character, Charisma and Gimmick are what sells tickets to draw more fans in the seats. There's a reason why I stand by Kevin Nash's Vanilla Midgets remark, which does hold a ring of truth to what Nash said.

Sports Entertainment Wrestling died when people like Chris Benoit and Eddie Guerrero were World Champions. To fit the description of legitimately credible World Champions, you gotta be either a hulking big man or a charming medium sized guy. American sports enthusiasts want bigger and tougher athletes like back in the day, not smaller, weaker and babyish athletes like today.

In my case, I think Sports Entertainment Wrestling died when people like Seth Rollins, Finn Balor, A.J. Styles, Kevin Owens and Sami Zayn have the WWE built around them, rather than building around Roman Reigns.

 

[LBGetBack]

There is so much misinformation in this thread it's hard to keep. Let me set this straight. First of all let me ask this question. more of an IMPACT where? On the BUSINESS or IN THE RING?

If the answer is BUSINESS and economics of the business there is no question it's KEVIN NASH. When we look at the business of pro wrestling before and after the "infamous" jump by Hall and Nash it's night and day. I would even argue it had a bigger impact that Vince going national in the early '80's because while Vince was a national promotion he still could not gain any traction in the southern portion of the U.S. Same with WCW. They were still very much a regional promotion consolidating most of their shows in the South. WCW didn't turn a profit until 1995 or 1996 and even with Hogan and Savage they were considered second to the WWF. Vince was struggling throughout the early 1990's. Then Hall and Nash jumped to WCW and BOOM pro wrestling EXPLODED.

Everything not only jumped but skyrocketed exponentially. Hall and Nash ushered in the "Monday Night Wars" when both RAW and NITRO were the most popular shows on cable television and even outdrawing Monday Night Football on ABC. They turned pro wrestling from a Saturday morning/afternoon show into a Monday night prime time show. Pro wrestling became most successful with the coveted 18-35 year old male demographic and it showed. Merchandise sales skyrocketed. They were able to cross over into the mainstream. The first time since the '80's pro wrestler's were able to do that. WCW went from being the "bastard child" nobody wanted to now the hottest thing at Turner/Time Warner.

Vince and the WWF had to take notice. All of sudden Vince was giving out guaranteed contracts and locking up all his top stars to real contracts something he had never done before. Hall and Nash ushered in the REAL "Attitude" Era. Nash had plans on being a "tweener" before leaving the WWF. Fans were cheering when he brutally attacked Bret Hart after Survivor Series 1995. Fans loved the "heel" Diesel. He tried to convince McMahon to turn him heel as WWF Champion but it didn't work now Nash was reaping the benefits in WCW.

Hogan was NOT the cornerstone of the NWO. The reason WHY the NWO was successful was because of the charisma of Hall and Nash. People LOVED the heelish outlaw image yet they were "cool" at the same time. Hogan was never that. Fans viewed Hall and Nash as badasses even when they lost. Hogan was just a coward. Of course this all led to the "Attitude Era" in the WWF and someone named Stone Cold (a good friend of Nash's) who saw the success the NWO was having in WCW. The WWF and WCW were at "war" and EVERYONE was reaping the benefits....wrestlers, fans, the promotions themselves. It was a GREAT time to be a wrestling fan and it all started with Scott Hall and Kevin Nash.

So who had more IMPACT? Overall it was Kevin Nash. The success he had in the business is EASILY top five. A master politician who worked his way from "bodyguard" to booker. When you think of wrestling at it's greatest height Kevin Nash is right there in the middle.

You complain about misinformation, then proceed to add more. WCW did better ratings after Hogan joined NWO than they did when it was just Hall and Nash.

Hogan was the champion and the top guy. Cornerstone. This is not debatable. It's not about your opinion on who was "cooler". It's about who was actually booked as the top guy and leader of the group. Hogan's turn took what was a cool and interesting and groundbreaking angle to another level.

 

[LBGetBack]

Are you kidding me?!? Sid?!? LOL. Sid had no where NEAR the charisma of Nash. He flaed out as a member of the Horsemen because he could not talk. Sid was intense. Nash was cool which is what the NWO was. They didn't sweat anything or anyone and even if they did they would not show it. Sid is opposite. Always screaming and yelling. Not a fit for the NWO.

Again Bret. No where near the speaking skills of Nash. Bret was a leader also his style would have clashed with Hogan's (as we saw when Bret went to WCW) Nash's style played off of Hogan's well, same goes for HBK.

'Taker was a loner. No faction for him.

Bret was one of the best talkers in the business by 96-97. The point is the NWO angle sold itself. Would've been a huge angle with any two big name stars to kick it off.

 

[Deoxyribonucleic A.C.I.D.]

It was Kevin Nash guys, but not because of him as a person. He just happened to be involved in many events that changed wrestling.

1) Curtain call
2) He left at the right moment otherwise Undertaker's streak would have never existed. Nash was gonna go over Taker at WM 12.
3) NWO
4) Tearing his quad in 2002 and thus, the HBK vs Triple H feud began. I think the original plan was Triple H vs Kevin Nash.
5) Ending Goldberg's streak
6) Fingerpoke of doom. Isn't that considered that start of WCW's fall?

 

[Deoxyribonucleic A.C.I.D.]

Spidey, wrestling to great five-star matches can only get you so far in the card. Character, Charisma and Gimmick are what sells tickets to draw more fans in the seats. There's a reason why I stand by Kevin Nash's Vanilla Midgets remark, which does hold a ring of truth to what Nash said.

Sports Entertainment Wrestling died when people like Chris Benoit and Eddie Guerrero were World Champions. To fit the description of legitimately credible World Champions, you gotta be either a hulking big man or a charming medium sized guy. American sports enthusiasts want bigger and tougher athletes like back in the day, not smaller, weaker and babyish athletes like today.

In my case, I think Sports Entertainment Wrestling died when people like Seth Rollins, Finn Balor, A.J. Styles, Kevin Owens and Sami Zayn have the WWE built around them, rather than building around Roman Reigns.

Aren't you supposed to be a Shawn Michaels fan? Your mention of Rollins and Styles is ridiculous.

 

[LBGetBack]

Spidey, wrestling to great five-star matches can only get you so far in the card. Character, Charisma and Gimmick are what sells tickets to draw more fans in the seats. There's a reason why I stand by Kevin Nash's Vanilla Midgets remark, which does hold a ring of truth to what Nash said.

Sports Entertainment Wrestling died when people like Chris Benoit and Eddie Guerrero were World Champions. To fit the description of legitimately credible World Champions, you gotta be either a hulking big man or a charming medium sized guy. American sports enthusiasts want bigger and tougher athletes like back in the day, not smaller, weaker and babyish athletes like today.

In my case, I think Sports Entertainment Wrestling died when people like Seth Rollins, Finn Balor, A.J. Styles, Kevin Owens and Sami Zayn have the WWE built around them, rather than building around Roman Reigns.

Character, charisma, and gimmick......Savage was among the greatest, most memorable, and most unique in all those areas. I have no idea what the rest of your post has to do with the topic though.

Even if Savage was horrible in ring, he still would've been a major star just off his charisma, character, and gimmick. That he was great in the ring just added to what was one of the most impactful, popular, and greatest careers ever.

 

[noTORRIEus]

The best way to answer this question is to ask any random person on the street or at work "have you ever heard of Randy Savage?" or "Do you know Kevin Nash is?"

Most will definitely know who the Macho Man is. Randy is Top 10 most popular person in wrestling history and was the number 2 man aka "worker/main eventer" during the sports highest peak. Also, if Nash did not get into the Hall of Fame until next year, would fans complain that he was being held out as most were during Randy's long time absence from HOF?

 

[LBGetBack]

The best way to answer this question is to ask any random person on the street or at work "have you ever heard of Randy Savage?" or "Do you know Kevin Nash is?"

Most will definitely know who the Macho Man is. Randy is Top 10 most popular person in wrestling history and was the number 2 man aka "worker/main eventer" during the sports highest peak. Also, if Nash did not get into the Hall of Fame until next year, would fans complain that he was being held out as most were during Randy's long time absence from HOF?

Very true. It's really not even close from that aspect either. Savage is an all time icon. Nash was an era specific star.

 

[TEIWCSCSAATBHPHASP]

Aren't you supposed to be a Shawn Michaels fan? Your mention of Rollins and Styles is ridiculous.

Deoxyribonucleic A.C.I.D. : Unlike Rollins and Styles, Michaels at least has a gimmick. Smarks don't even like HBK because he has character, even though Michaels has wrestling matches even though he's not necessarily known for great wrestling matches.

Rollins and Styles have zero character, they lack charisma and are monotonous promo cutters. They're both like one-trick ponies who are only good for wrestling matches and nothing else. Even they're not great with their one and only bread-and-butter attribute since both Rollins and Styles are intentionally reckless and careless with their wrestling. Michaels was safer with his wrestling style. Rollins injured John Cena and a much older Sting that pretty much ended Sting's in-ring career at 2015 Night of Champions. And didn't Styles injure somebody a year or two ago with his Styles Clash move?

Yes I am a Shawn Michaels fan, but I also cannot deny that he didn't move the needle as World Champion and the WWF's top draw when the WWF had to worry about losing ratings to WCW and the nWo. Bret is nothing special for me, but at least he wrestled safer, since the Modernized Independent Circuit is full of move spammers and recklessly unsafe wrestlers who can't even make money in the big wrestling companies let alone being able to speak on the mic.

HBK is about charisma and gimmick whereas Bret is just about one-dimensional technical wrestling, Rollins and Styles are even more one-dimensional and therefore, work the Modernized Independent Circuit gameplay style and both Rollins and Styles injure other people intentionally. As much as I don't like Bret's boring matches so I'm gonna put my disdain for him aside for this one, at least I'll give Bret credit for being safer with himself and his opponents during his matches though, that's all I can hope for out of Bret. Apart from injuring Bad News Brown and Vader, Bret worked almost all of his matches without injuring his opponents.

And speaking of the NWO, if you take Nash and Hall out of the faction, it just wouldn't have the same coolness factor without them. Hogan looked like a desperate cartoonish supervillain whereas Hall and Nash are the real cool guys. Savage was a minor footnote in the nWo besides his feud with DDP, and even his feud with DDP was midcard material. In order for the nWo to be over with the fans and remain over with the fans, it has to have a Scott Hall and/or a Kevin Nash for it to work successfully.

 

[Spidey Revivey]

Spidey, wrestling to great five-star matches can only get you so far in the card. Character, Charisma and Gimmick are what sells tickets to draw more fans in the seats. There's a reason why I stand by Kevin Nash's Vanilla Midgets remark, which does hold a ring of truth to what Nash said.

I'm unsure on what you're going on about. You telling me Savage's great matches pale in comparison to Kevin Nash being buddies with a heel Hulk Hogan? Are you arguing that Macho Madness wasn't a big deal compared to Kevin Nash lazily hanging around with Scott Hall? Is Kevin calling people Vanilla Midgets somehow more iconic than Savage's "Oh yeah!" catchphrase?

Seriously, what the fuck was Kevin Nash's gimmick and how is it a bigger deal than being a macho man? If you're going to bring things like that up, some detail would help your cause.

You're an old school wrestling fan, right? You know more than just stuff about Scott Steiner and Bret Hart surely. Name one match Kevin Nash had that eclipses Randy Savage vs. Ricky Steamboat. We're giving Kevin Nash way too much credit for just being around big names while Savage was a big name. I reiterate Nash's championship reigns, both in WWF and WCW were during times wrestling was dwindling in popularity. Savage was at its peak.

And you talk about how characters are more important...what did Kevin Nash do outside of wresting that was better than Savage's Slim Jim commercial?

Sports Entertainment Wrestling died when people like Chris Benoit and Eddie Guerrero were World Champions. To fit the description of legitimately credible World Champions, you gotta be either a hulking big man or a charming medium sized guy. American sports enthusiasts want bigger and tougher athletes like back in the day, not smaller, weaker and babyish athletes like today.

In my case, I think Sports Entertainment Wrestling died when people like Seth Rollins, Finn Balor, A.J. Styles, Kevin Owens and Sami Zayn have the WWE built around them, rather than building around Roman Reigns.

Literally has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. Please stop going off-topic.

 

[TEIWCSCSAATBHPHASP]

I'm unsure on what you're going on about. You telling me Savage's great matches pale in comparison to Kevin Nash being buddies with a heel Hulk Hogan? Are you arguing that Macho Madness wasn't a big deal compared to Kevin Nash lazily hanging around with Scott Hall? Is Kevin calling people Vanilla Midgets somehow more iconic than Savage's "Oh yeah!" catchphrase?

Seriously, what the fuck was Kevin Nash's gimmick and how is it a bigger deal than being a macho man? If you're going to bring things like that up, some detail would help your cause.

You're an old school wrestling fan, right? You know more than just stuff about Scott Steiner and Bret Hart surely. Name one match Kevin Nash had that eclipses Randy Savage vs. Ricky Steamboat. We're giving Kevin Nash way too much credit for just being around big names while Savage was a big name. I reiterate Nash's championship reigns, both in WWF and WCW were during times wrestling was dwindling in popularity. Savage was at its peak.

And you talk about how characters are more important...what did Kevin Nash do outside of wresting that was better than Savage's Slim Jim commercial?




Literally has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. Please stop going off-topic.

Spidey, you're just making excuses to discredit Nash's impact for WWF, WCW and the nWo from '94-'01. I am a fan of both Nash and Savage. Like I said, great matches don't make Savage a true performer. His character, charisma and mic skills are his true bread and butter. The great matches you like to rave about, any great matches out of Savage are just a bonus. But when perusing the whole history, history tells us that Savage at best was a #2 guy behind Hulk Hogan. Nobody could unseat The Hulkster big time, even Warrior dropped the ball as the WWF's supposed #1 guy in 1990-91. Savage's first World Championship was used as a placeholder for Hogan while Hogan was out doing a movie called No Holds Barred, and the 1992 World Championship reign was again just Savage as a stopgap while Hogan was away on hiatus, Bret was too raw as a singles star, and Flair couldn't be trusted to work the WWF style without blading (which is a part of Flair's character) hence Flair's foul trouble, and Warrior at that point was unreliable, plus Shawn Michaels just became a singles star earlier that same year so it's too early to build around Bret and HBK. Mid 1990s was the best time for Bret and HBK to shine.

Kevin Nash on the other hand wasn't even a #2 guy like Savage was saddled with in terms of full-time card placement. Nash was the #1 guy in '94-'95 WWF and the #1 babyface in 1998 WCW with the nWo Wolfpac he spearheaded against Hogan's nWo Hollywood. Savage wasn't even #1 in the Wolfpac, Nash was. Nash still had plenty of upside left in the tank, while Savage was already way past his prime after the DDP feud and his knee injury (Torn ACL), and thus, Savage (post-knee injury) had nothing left to give for wrestling, except mainstream movies like Spider Man and an attempt at a rapping career.

More importantly, Nash had the bigger impact, but smarks don't wanna give him credit for the nWo and the Attitude Era. Nash's bread and butter was the free-range freestyle shoot promos. Something guys like Kevin Nash and Scott Steiner can't do, because Vince McMahon has zero understanding of guys with unique charisma like Nash and Steiner. I think Nash and Steiner have to be one of the most misunderstood guys by the Internet IWC generation.

Nash and Steiner are great at promos when you don't make them cut scripted promos. That is a similar issue we are seeing right now from the WWE today. Let Nash and Steiner do free-range freestyle promos and they would have been looked at in a far more positive light by the IWC than the IWC over analyze too many negatives of Nash and Steiner. The IWC likes to look at Nash and Steiner like these two are cancerous alphas to the business. Hogan, Flair, Bret, HBK, Savage, HHH and Austin are alphas yet none of them IWC smarks give those guys the same disdain of red flags the way they do Nash and Steiner.

Hogan, Flair, Bret, HBK, Savage, HHH, Warrior and Austin are the alphas who are revered by the IWC because of the global impact they all made in the wrestling business or for other reasons, whereas Nash and Steiner are the alphas who the IWC sees as more cancerous than Hall, Luger, Hennig and Bagwell and therefore try to write them two off altogether as much as possible.

How is this off-topic when it's what this thread is all about, Spidey?!?

 

[Makaveli31]

Those quoting Nash's switch as his impact, incorrect... Savage jumped first... remember Hogan was a free agent for a while when he signed to WCW. Savage was under contract to WWF, it expired and he signed.. he was pretty much gone from WWF within a week. Remember that awkward "goodbye" from Vince... no other wrestler who jumped ship ever got that.

While he may not have debuted in the same way as Nash and Hall, it was the first time a BIG name had publically told Vince and the WWF, "Thank's but no thanks, I'll go to WCW" even Luger did it before Nash and Hall... and he was on a WWF PPV the night before. When you think about it, Nash and Hall had been off WWF TV for a while, with Nash's last act being to take the Tombstone... Savage was there one week, gone the next... as was Luger. It was a shock to see then in WCW, but it's tenuous and self aggrandizing on all their parts to actually say people thought they were WWF contracted then.

The difference is Savage was pretty much done as a full-time in-ring competitor by the time he "jumped." He had not main evented anything since 1992 TWO YEARS before the left for WCW. He was pretty much an announcer and "special attraction" by the time he left the WWF. I remember watching Savage's debut on WCW Saturday Night. I remember it being "cool" to see him back with Hogan but it wasn't SHOCKING like when Hall and Nash debuted. I understood by Savage would've left. Luger was the same way. Yes, it was "WOW" moment but it more cool to see him back in WCW with Sting than anything else. Luger had a prior main event-type relationship with WCW so NO it wasn't shocking when he went back or why he went back.

Hall and Nash were different. They MADE their names in the WWF (unlike Luger) and were still in their PRIMES (unlike Savage) Diesel had just c0-main evented WrestleMania with 'Taker and they were both at the April IYH's. Razor Ramon and Diesel were SYNONYMOUS with the WWF never in a million years did I think Razor and Diesel would jump to WCW so YES I thought (and so did millions of others people) that they were still with the WWF and even if they weren't WHY were they in WCW. There were no Internet dirt sheets back then so I knew nothing about contracts. What MADE the NWO popular was that people thought Hall and Nash were starting a intra-company war between the WWF and WCW. It was the basis of a lawsuit so OBVIOUSLY it had some merit.

Forget the guaranteed contracts for a moment, Nash and Hall had something known as Safe Harbour and were the first to have it. That meant if WCW hired ANYONE or gave ANYONE a new deal that was bigger than theirs, they HAD to be given the same...automatically. When WCW were offering Bret 3m a year... that meant they were offering Hall and Nash 3m a year too... When Goldberg was getting 5m... so were they...

Again you are wrong....the "Favored Nations" clause which you are referring too only affected a SMALL portion of wrestler's. Only a handful (maybe less) of wrestler's could genuinely command MORE than Hall and Nash were making. Bret being one obviously 'Taker and maybe HBK being the others. So that IMPACTED only a SMALL group of wrestler's whereas guaranteed contracts affected an ENTIRE locker room of wrestler's. Imagine if you're a low-mid card guy (which there are alot of) and you're praying you'll be on a SummerSlam or WrestleMania to get a big pay day all of that was out the window now because of the guaranteed deals.

That was arguably the single biggest mistake WCW/Eric ever made... as once they had it, all the players had to have it and you created a situation where a payrise for one, was a payrise for all.

The only person that got it was Bret and that wasn't even the case because by the time Bret had signed with WCW Hall and Nash were making over a million dollars per year so they were close in term of salary. No one else came in and made more than Hall and Nash. So they 'favored nations" clause really had NO impact.

 

[LBGetBack]

Spidey, you're just making excuses to discredit Nash's impact for WWF, WCW and the nWo from '94-'01. I am a fan of both Nash and Savage. Like I said, great matches don't make Savage a true performer. His character, charisma and mic skills are his true bread and butter. The great matches you like to rave about, any great matches out of Savage are just a bonus. But when perusing the whole history, history tells us that Savage at best was a #2 guy behind Hulk Hogan. Nobody could unseat The Hulkster big time, even Warrior dropped the ball as the WWF's supposed #1 guy in 1990-91. Savage's first World Championship was used as a placeholder for Hogan while Hogan was out doing a movie called No Holds Barred, and the 1992 World Championship reign was again just Savage as a stopgap while Hogan was away on hiatus, Bret was too raw as a singles star, and Flair couldn't be trusted to work the WWF style without blading (which is a part of Flair's character) hence Flair's foul trouble, and Warrior at that point was unreliable, plus Shawn Michaels just became a singles star earlier that same year so it's too early to build around Bret and HBK. Mid 1990s was the best time for Bret and HBK to shine.

Kevin Nash on the other hand wasn't even a #2 guy like Savage was saddled with in terms of full-time card placement. Nash was the #1 guy in '94-'95 WWF and the #1 babyface in 1998 WCW with the nWo Wolfpac he spearheaded against Hogan's nWo Hollywood. Savage wasn't even #1 in the Wolfpac, Nash was. Nash still had plenty of upside left in the tank, while Savage was already way past his prime after the DDP feud and his knee injury (Torn ACL), and thus, Savage (post-knee injury) had nothing left to give for wrestling, except mainstream movies like Spider Man and an attempt at a rapping career.




More importantly, Nash had the bigger impact, but smarks don't wanna give him credit for the nWo and the Attitude Era. Nash's bread and butter was the free-range freestyle shoot promos. Something guys like Kevin Nash and Scott Steiner can't do, because Vince McMahon has zero understanding of guys with unique charisma like Nash and Steiner. I think Nash and Steiner have to be one of the most misunderstood guys by the Internet IWC generation.

Nash and Steiner are great at promos when you don't make them cut scripted promos. That is a similar issue we are seeing right now from the WWE today. Let Nash and Steiner do free-range freestyle promos and they would have been looked at in a far more positive light by the IWC than the IWC over analyze too many negatives of Nash and Steiner. The IWC likes to look at Nash and Steiner like these two are cancerous alphas to the business. Hogan, Flair, Bret, HBK, Savage, HHH and Austin are alphas yet none of them IWC smarks give those guys the same disdain of red flags the way they do Nash and Steiner.

Hogan, Flair, Bret, HBK, Savage, HHH, Warrior and Austin are the alphas who are revered by the IWC because of the global impact they all made in the wrestling business or for other reasons, whereas Nash and Steiner are the alphas who the IWC sees as more cancerous than Hall, Luger, Hennig and Bagwell and therefore try to write them two off altogether as much as possible.

How is this off-topic when it's what this thread is all about, Spidey?!?

Nash was not the top face in 1998. Sting was early on, and then Goldberg took it from there. DDP was above Nash too.

 

[TEIWCSCSAATBHPHASP]

Nash was not the top face in 1998. Sting was early on, and then Goldberg took it from there. DDP was above Nash too.

Yes he was! Nash was the most over face for the majority of 1998, more so than Goldberg, DDP and even Sting. Sting was an upper midcarder at best who would occasionally get a lick of the upper echelon of main event status like he did in 1990 and 1997, but both times, his opponents drew much better than Sting did, whether it was prime Ric Flair or the nWo (especially Hogan).

Nobody really liked Goldberg's undefeated winning streak angle, Diamond Dallas Page isn't necessarily a top guy imo, Savage was pretty much finished as a prime-time performer and Sting had a drug addiction issue (which also almost cost him his marriage to Sue Borden) that played a big factor why he needed to lose to Hogan at Starrcade '97 and that was shortly a while before Sting was going to become a Born Again Christian in 1998 before he was to go off to complete a drug rehabilitation program by the end of the year so he would finally be free from the drug addictions to alcohol, painkillers and muscle relaxers. So Nash was the right call to be the most over babyface in 1998, and he needed to beat Goldberg and his epic winning streak at Starrcade '98 in order for the two warring nWo factions to be reunited into the nWo Wolfpac Elite.

Complain all you want about Nash's perceived supposed lack of impact, but he did more with his short-term prime impact than Savage did in any year. In other words, LBGetBack and Spidey, you two have nothing to continue on about. At least the likes of myself, THTRobTaylor and Makaveli31 have more experience in the Old School era than you two could ever hope to come close to our vast old school wrestling knowledge.

 

[Makaveli31]

[You complain about misinformation, then proceed to add more. WCW did better ratings after Hogan joined NWO than they did when it was just Hall and Nash.
/QUOTE]

You mean once the NWO angle went full blown? LOL. OK. By that logic WCW did better ratings when Bagwell and Wall Street joined too.

Hogan was the champion and the top guy. Cornerstone. This is not debatable. It's not about your opinion on who was "cooler". It's about who was actually booked as the top guy and leader of the group. Hogan's turn took what was a cool and interesting and groundbreaking angle to another level.

There is no NWO without Hall and Nash PERIOD. SO YES they are the corner stones. We all know why the angle was so so to begin with and why it got so much popularity. Hall and Nash. When Nash brought that same magic to the Wolfpac the same thing happened. Over. Not so much with the black and white. You can still have the NWO without Hogan but you can't have the NWO without Hall or Nash,

 

[TEIWCSCSAATBHPHASP]

[You complain about misinformation, then proceed to add more. WCW did better ratings after Hogan joined NWO than they did when it was just Hall and Nash.
/QUOTE]

You mean once the NWO angle went full blown? LOL. OK. By that logic WCW did better ratings when Bagwell and Wall Street joined too.




There is no NWO without Hall and Nash PERIOD. SO YES they are the corner stones. We all know why the angle was so so to begin with and why it got so much popularity. Hall and Nash. When Nash brought that same magic to the Wolfpac the same thing happened. Over. Not so much with the black and white. You can still have the NWO without Hogan but you can't have the NWO without Hall or Nash,

I agree with you in regards to who actually made the biggest impact with the nWo overall.

Over in the nWo Black and White, it was basically just Hogan, Hall, Steiner and a bunch of scrubs, and to be honest, Scott Steiner should've replaced Hogan as the B&W leader full-time. Whereas in the nWo Wolfpac, the lineup of Nash, Savage, Konnan, Luger and Sting were simply better with big names. It's an example of why Hall and Nash had a bigger impact than Hogan in regards to the nWo, not to mention, Hall didn't even want to be in the nWo Hollywood to begin with, yet Bischoff forced him into working alongside Hogan, knowing that Hogan and Nash were at each other's throats for much of 1998.

 

[ilapierre]

the question was IMPACT, who had the most impact. Savage unquestionably had the greater career and was undoubtedly the better wrester but Nash being the cornerstone of the nWo was more impactful on the industry as a whole than anything Savage ever did.

Nope. Savage had the better career and had more of an impact than Nash. Nash was ONE member of the NWO. And he was the weakest link of the three. Scott Norton was New World Order too. Does that mean he had more of an impact than Randy Savage? The New World Order was NOT Hogan, Nash and Hall. It was Hogan, Nash and Hall for about 3 weeks. For 3 years it was a whole variety of wrestlers. When I think of the NWO, I think strength in numbers. I don't remember the NWO the WWE fanboy way: Like a 3 member DX-style group. I look at it the WCW fanboy way (the right way): Like a group of 10-15 guys who beat the shit out of everyone else. And Randy was #2 in command in 1997. It was Randy who created the Wolfpack. It was Randy who was legdropped to begin the NWO. It was Randy who split the NWO and went after Hogan. And his Lone Wolf persona in 1998 was massively over..he was as big as Sting in the winter of 98.

I shouldn't have to even explain this shit to you ******ed kids. Anyone who was born in the early 1980s knows what I'm saying is a 100 percent fact. Don't let your Triple H-PG WWE programming of the past 20 years fool you. That's what the McMahon's do with their WWE network. They diminish Randy Savage.. They diminished him in the HOF as well by making Nash as the main draw over Savage. Nash is pretty much nothing without the NWO. Just a roadie tagging along the charismatic guys like Michaels, Hogan and Hall. Savage was 1b to Hogan for 8 years and during his whole career got just about as big pops and reactions as wrestling's greatest draw. He was what Michaels is to Triple H. Savage didn't need titles and main event slots to get over. He was the excitement..he was the workhorse the audiences were blown away by when the cards were over. Hogan needed titles and main events to keep Savage down below him in status..And that's why Savage will go down as having a million times more impact than Kevin Nash. The NWO was a 3 year thing that only really had 2 amazing years. Savage was amazing his entire in-ring career.

 

[Spidey Revivey]

Spidey, you're just making excuses to discredit Nash's impact for WWF, WCW and the nWo from '94-'01. I am a fan of both Nash and Savage. Like I said, great matches don't make Savage a true performer. His character, charisma and mic skills are his true bread and butter. The great matches you like to rave about, any great matches out of Savage are just a bonus. But when perusing the whole history, history tells us that Savage at best was a #2 guy behind Hulk Hogan. Nobody could unseat The Hulkster big time, even Warrior dropped the ball as the WWF's supposed #1 guy in 1990-91. Savage's first World Championship was used as a placeholder for Hogan while Hogan was out doing a movie called No Holds Barred, and the 1992 World Championship reign was again just Savage as a stopgap while Hogan was away on hiatus, Bret was too raw as a singles star, and Flair couldn't be trusted to work the WWF style without blading (which is a part of Flair's character) hence Flair's foul trouble, and Warrior at that point was unreliable, plus Shawn Michaels just became a singles star earlier that same year so it's too early to build around Bret and HBK. Mid 1990s was the best time for Bret and HBK to shine.

Correct me if I'm wrong, old school buff, but isn't having great matches with a great gimmick the whole point of wrestling?

And no one is arguing Savage was second banana was Hogan. He was. But if you're arguing Nash was second banana then clearly you missed out on most of the Monday Night Wars.

Kevin Nash on the other hand wasn't even a #2 guy like Savage was saddled with in terms of full-time card placement. Nash was the #1 guy in '94-'95 WWF and the #1 babyface in 1998 WCW with the nWo Wolfpac he spearheaded against Hogan's nWo Hollywood. Savage wasn't even #1 in the Wolfpac, Nash was. Nash still had plenty of upside left in the tank, while Savage was already way past his prime after the DDP feud and his knee injury (Torn ACL), and thus, Savage (post-knee injury) had nothing left to give for wrestling, except mainstream movies like Spider Man and an attempt at a rapping career.

Yeahhh I'm pretty sure you know Sting, Goldberg, etc were bigger faces than Kevin Nash was at this time. You're an old school buff with selective memory.

Plus you sorta just proved my point that Savage had the bigger impact with his character. Spider-Man was a box office hit. What did Nash do again? A minute as Super Shredder in some Turtles movie that featured Vanilla Ice?

More importantly, Nash had the bigger impact, but smarks don't wanna give him credit for the nWo and the Attitude Era. Nash's bread and butter was the free-range freestyle shoot promos. Something guys like Kevin Nash and Scott Steiner can't do, because Vince McMahon has zero understanding of guys with unique charisma like Nash and Steiner. I think Nash and Steiner have to be one of the most misunderstood guys by the Internet IWC generation.

First, there's no such thing as an IWC generation. That's pretty much a conglomeration of imaginary fans whose opinions you don't like.

Second, we all know people who can give a great Savage impersonation who doesn't even watch wrestling. You cannot say the same for Kevin Nash.

Nash and Steiner are great at promos when you don't make them cut scripted promos. That is a similar issue we are seeing right now from the WWE today. Let Nash and Steiner do free-range freestyle promos and they would have been looked at in a far more positive light by the IWC than the IWC over analyze too many negatives of Nash and Steiner. The IWC likes to look at Nash and Steiner like these two are cancerous alphas to the business. Hogan, Flair, Bret, HBK, Savage, HHH and Austin are alphas yet none of them IWC smarks give those guys the same disdain of red flags the way they do Nash and Steiner.

Again, modern WWE has nothing to do with this topic.

If Nash is great on promos, give me an example. Has he said anything memorable that is up there or better than Savage's Macho Madness?

Hogan, Flair, Bret, HBK, Savage, HHH, Warrior and Austin are the alphas who are revered by the IWC because of the global impact they all made in the wrestling business or for other reasons, whereas Nash and Steiner are the alphas who the IWC sees as more cancerous than Hall, Luger, Hennig and Bagwell and therefore try to write them two off altogether as much as possible.

This is just weird. Nobody is going around calling these guys alphas. Nobody even said anything along the lines of Steiner or Nash being cancerous, or Luger and Hall or whatever you're prattling about. Savage is revered more than Nash because he was just better at talking than Nash was. Nash was better known as being a big man in wrestling. You're bringing something up that has nothing to do with the question being asked.

How is this off-topic when it's what this thread is all about, Spidey?!?

Sami Zayn, Eddie Guerrero, Chris Benoit, etc have nothing to do with the thread. This thread is about Who had the greater impact in wrestling, Savage or Nash. Please don't turn this into that Dylann Roof thread in the Symposium.

 

[Makaveli31]

Bret was one of the best talkers in the business by 96-97. The point is the NWO angle sold itself. Would've been a huge angle with any two big name stars to kick it off.

Nope. Wrong. Bret did not have the same chemistry as Hall and Nash had with each other. Hall and Nash were shoot best friends in real life. There is no way Bret could've replaced either and it been as successful.

 

[ilapierre]

I agree with you in regards to who actually made the biggest impact with the nWo overall.

Over in the nWo Black and White, it was basically just Hogan, Hall, Steiner and a bunch of scrubs, and to be honest, Scott Steiner should've replaced Hogan as the B&W leader full-time. Whereas in the nWo Wolfpac, the lineup of Nash, Savage, Konnan, Luger and Sting were simply better with big names. It's an example of why Hall and Nash had a bigger impact than Hogan in regards to the nWo, not to mention, Hall didn't even want to be in the nWo Hollywood to begin with, yet Bischoff forced him into working alongside Hogan, knowing that Hogan and Nash were at each other's throats for much of 1998.

How about you give credit to the NWO as a unit? The NWO was an amazing idea (based on the real world NW0) and two WWF wrestlers were in the right place at the right time to usher in the greatest angle in wrestling history. Without Hogan, the NWO wouldn't have lasted 3 years..probably wouldn't have lasted a year. Hogan was the piece that made the NWO the NWO. Nash and Hall were only big because fans recognized them as WWF guys. When that wore off, so did their impact. I remember periods in 1997 when Nash was gone for months at a time. The NWO was amazing during these periods. Way better than it had been when the original three started it. What I remember is the NWO angle wasn't as enjoyable when Scott Hall was on hiatus. And without Hogan, the NWO was nothing. Remember when Hall and Nash kicked Hogan out at Wrestlemania 18? The NWO meant nothing at that point. So wrap your head around this dude. If Nash was so 'impactful' on his own, why did nobody give one shit about the NWO once Hogan was gone? And Scott Steiner should never have led the NWO. Scott Steiner was a low to mid card tag team specialist who they only pushed because he probably threatened somebody. The guy was a joke on the mic and in the ring once he joined the NWO. He's really somebody I'm surprised gets any mention. He ranks right up there with Stevie Ray and Horace Hogan in impact..

 

[Makaveli31]

Nope. Savage had the better career and had more of an impact than Nash. Nash was ONE member of the NWO. And he was the weakest link of the three. Scott Norton was New World Order too.

You're comparison of Kevin Nash to Scott Norton is laughable....Nash was a FOUNDING member and a leader. That's like comparing Arn Anderson's place in the FOUR HORSEMEN to Paul Roma.

For 3 years it was a whole variety of wrestlers. When I think of the NWO, I think strength in numbers. I don't remember the NWO the WWE fanboy way: Like a 3 member DX-style group. I look at it the WCW fanboy way (the right way): Like a group of 10-15 guys who beat the shit out of everyone else. And Randy was #2 in command in 1997. It was Randy who created the Wolfpack. It was Randy who was legdropped to begin the NWO. It was Randy who split the NWO and went after Hogan. And his Lone Wolf persona in 1998 was massively over..he was as big as Sting in the winter of 98.

Yes it was a variety but the ONLY ones OVER were Hall and Nash. The "others" were over ONLY because they were in the NWO and even then it was debatable how over they really were. So no I don't put any relevance for the other "12" or so guys in the NWO. the NWO the REAL NWO the founding fathers and the CORNERSTONES were always Hogan, Hall, and Nash. I'm sorry I'm not including Vincent.

And Randy was #2 in command in 1997. It was Randy who created the Wolfpack. It was Randy who was legdropped to begin the NWO. It was Randy who split the NWO and went after Hogan. And his Lone Wolf persona in 1998 was massively over..he was as big as Sting in the winter of 98.

Nope. Nash was two and everybody knew it. I was just waiting for Nash to split with Hogan and form his own group. Nash was the first one to stand up to Hogan when Syxx was fired. Randy created the Wolfpack? The Wolfpack was Hall, Nash, and Syxx, C'mon you were a WCW "fanboy" and didn't know that?!?

Nash is pretty much nothing without the NWO. Just a roadie tagging along the charismatic guys like Michaels, Hogan and Hall. Savage was 1b to Hogan for 8 years and during his whole career got just about as big pops and reactions as wrestling's greatest draw. He was what Michaels is to Triple H. Savage didn't need titles and main event slots to get over. He was the excitement. Hogan needed titles and main events keep Savage down..just like Triple H did to his buddy Shawn after his rebirth.

So I guess when he left Shawn and the WWF in 1996 he was just "tagging along? How about when Scott stopped being active full time wrestler due to substance abuse in 1998? Or when Hogan was injured in 1999? The ONLY constant in WCW among those guys was Kevin Nash.

 

[TEIWCSCSAATBHPHASP]

How about you give credit to the NWO as a unit? The NWO was an amazing idea (based on the real world NW0) and two WWF wrestlers were in the right place at the right time to usher in the greatest angle in wrestling history. Without Hogan, the NWO wouldn't have lasted 3 years..probably wouldn't have lasted a year. Hogan was the piece that made the NWO the NWO. Nash and Hall were only big because fans recognized them as WWF guys. When that wore off, so did their impact. I remember periods in 1997 when Nash was gone for months at a time. The NWO was amazing during these periods. Way better than it had been when the original three started it. What I remember is the NWO angle wasn't as enjoyable when Scott Hall was on hiatus. And without Hogan, the NWO was nothing. Remember when Hall and Nash kicked Hogan out at Wrestlemania 18? The NWO meant nothing at that point. So wrap your head around this dude. If Nash was so 'impactful' on his own, why did nobody give one shit about the NWO once Hogan was gone? And Scott Steiner should never have led the NWO. Scott Steiner was a low to mid card tag team specialist who they only pushed because he probably threatened somebody. The guy was a joke on the mic and in the ring once he joined the NWO. He's really somebody I'm surprised gets any mention. He ranks right up there with Stevie Ray and Horace Hogan in impact..

ilapierre : You don't even like Nash and Steiner because they're not your cup of tea, is that right? You are letting your anti-Nash bias cloud your judgment because of the intense disdain the IWC smarks have against guys like Nash and Steiner.

The nWo still was drawing ratings when Hall was on hiatus, and Hogan's novelty act as the ramblin' screaming Hollywood Hogan wore off by 1998. So instead of standing next to Hall and Nash which helped make Hogan look better than he actually was, Hogan has now had to stand next to Brian Adams and Vincent without Hall and Nash around.

You like to act like Scott Steiner and Kevin Nash never had a prime in their wrestling careers, it's because you like the WWF scripted promos, and you seriously don't like them because they're much better on the mic than you give them credit for. Nash and Steiner are good on the mic, WHEN you don't make them do scripted promos. When you let them do free-range, freestyle shoot promos, it means you're using Nash and Steiner at the maximum at their best.

I have a feeling Kevin Nash and Scott Steiner are the two guys the IWC likes to crap on the most, because they like to look at those two like they're alphas who act like backstage cancers to wrestling companies when you have Hall, Hennig and Luger who are worse with drug issues and substance abuse issues, then there's successful alphas like Hogan, Savage, Flair, Bret, Goldberg, Austin, HBK and HHH who never have had to accumulate that much extreme disdain that's heaped onto Nash and Steiner. I seriously have no explanation for Scott Steiner's wrestling career, because of you and the Botchamania people who like to ruin Scott to make him out like he never reached his full potential in terms of stardom, and then the same smarks like to throw torn quad jokes at Kevin Nash. The guy just had a serious, potentially career-ending injury that put him out for much of 2002, and if the quad jokes are your only weapon of defense you and the IWC smarks like to throw at Nash, then it just says a lot about your maturity level, or at least lacking in decent maturity.