Where does CM Punk rank among all-time greats?

[Bernkastel]

Where did you get this list of greatest draws from ? Rock is only relevant because of Hollywood success ? Come on !! Don't diss the guy just because you don't like him leaving for Hollywood. He gave as many if not more memorable moments in his much shorter time in the main event than most of the people on your list.

Do you even understand what drawing power is? It's not just about getting heat. Staying power makes up for the most of it. Rock didn't have that. When he took the reigns from Austin in 1999/2000 he did not take the industry to new heights. It stagnated. And then following 2001 WWE began losing steam thanks to the ridiculous Ruthless Aggression era.

In 1999 WWE was still a national name just like everyone other promotion. And there were people around who drew better than Rocky. There were people before who drew better than Rocky. They expanded their companies. Drew tens of thousands on a regular basis. And without the help of a billion dollar company backing them.

 

[grantedisme]

I ranked him 11-20 (though I probably wouldn't argue with him being ranked 9 or 10).

I'm not sure that there is a moment in the last 10 years that received as much attention from the WWE fans as the pipe bomb promo. The only two events that come close in my opinion are The Rock's return and the Nexus debut, but from a personal perspective, I think the pipe bomb promo was bigger. I know that was only one moment, but added to his consistent ability to build feuds on the mic, his long reign with the title, and his exemplary work in the ring, I think he fits into the top 20.

If he had a longer career with the WWE and got the chance to main event a Wrestlemania or two, I'd rank him in the top 10, but like I've said in many other threads, the WWE's history has seen a great many fantastic superstars who have entertained us for decades, so being anywhere in the top 50 is an amazing accomplishment for any wrestler to achieve.

 

[jeffrey9800]

CM Punk had (Yes I said Had) great skills, we all know them, but I think his attitude and the fact that he was relevant for a shorter time than most puts him in the 20-30th range.

There's one comment that puts him in the same category as Edge, I respectfully disagree. Man Edge had a 15 year+ career, had at least 50 awesome matches on PPV's only, took the tag team division to a new level, was awesome at promos and a work horse.

Not so sure how we can compare the two,

 

[ProWrestlingFan]

Do you even understand what drawing power is? It's not just about getting heat. Staying power makes up for the most of it. Rock didn't have that. When he took the reigns from Austin in 1999/2000 he did not take the industry to new heights. It stagnated. And then following 2001 WWE began losing steam thanks to the ridiculous Ruthless Aggression era.

In 1999 WWE was still a national name just like everyone other promotion. And there were people around who drew better than Rocky. There were people before who drew better than Rocky. They expanded their companies. Drew tens of thousands on a regular basis. And without the help of a billion dollar company backing them.

Top 5 draws according to Dave Meltzer (1998-2002)

1998 - 1. Steve Austin (set all-time record for most big gates in one year); 2. Undertaker; 3. Kane; 4. Mick Foley; 5. The Rock

1999 - 1. The Rock (set all-time record for most big gates in one year); 2. Steve Austin; 3. HHH; 4. Big Show; 5. Kane

2000 - 1. The Rock (set all-time record for most big gates in one year); 2. HHH; 3. Kurt Angle; 4. Kane 5. Chris Benoit;

2001 - 1. Steve Austin; 2. The Rock; 3. Kurt Angle; 4. HHH; 5. Undertaker;

2002 -1. The Rock ; 2. HHH; 3. Hulk Hogan; 4. Chris Jericho; 5. Steve Austin;

Also, 2000 was the most financially successful year for WWE... the year Rock was on top.

So you saying "Rock did not take the industry to new heights" is factually incorrect.

Wrestling became stagnant after 2001 because of the demise of WCW.

 

[Bernkastel]

Top 5 draws according to Dave Meltzer (1998-2002)

Meltzer also measures quantity not quality. He's known for being biased from that perspective. He has Taker being a higher draw than Stone Cold on his "draws by decade" list.

Also, 2000 was the most financially successful year for WWE... the year Rock was on top.

You're ignoring all the other big names that WWE had at the time. That success was certainly not all on the Rock. Stone Cold brought half a billion dollars into the industry one year. Rock never even got close to pulling in that kind of amount in by himself.

By your own list Austin surpassed the Rock the next year.

So you saying "Rock did not take the industry to new heights" is factually incorrect.

Nope. He took was what already established by Stone Cold and helped maintain the momentum WWE had with other stars.

Wrestling became stagnant after 2001 because of the demise of WCW.

If Rock was this big huge draw like you claim, who took the WWE "to new heights" then wouldn't he have continued to do so even without promotional competition? WCW was already dead in 2000; hardly anyone was watching it. And yet WWE stock still went down. So that contradicts the logic of your whole argument.

 

[ProWrestlingFan]

Meltzer also measures quantity not quality. He's known for being biased from that perspective. He has Taker being a higher draw than Stone Cold on his "draws by decade" list.

-Rock holds the record of drawing most major shows with 10,000+ attendance on top in one calendar year.
Broke Hogan's(1986) and Austin's(1998) record in 1999 and set a record of headlining over 100 shows with 10,000 plus people in attendance in year 2000.
A box-office drawing record that is unsurpassed till date.

Those are FACTS.

Nope. He took was what already established by Stone Cold and helped maintain the momentum WWE had with other stars.

Where did this "momentum" go all of a sudden when The Rock left to film The Scorpion King? Why did the PPV buyrates started going down after Rock left in 2001?

If Rock was this big huge draw like you claim, who took the WWE "to new heights" then wouldn't he have continued to do so even without promotional competition?

He did continue to do so until he was there. The buyrates started going downhill after he left for movies.

WCW was already dead in 2000; hardly anyone was watching it.

-Yet WCW was still getting over 3.2-3.5 million viewers weekly until their last episode.



I am not even that big of a Rock fan but Rock was and still is a huge draw. Wrestlemania 27, 28 and 29 all got over 1 Million buys because of Rock.

 

[Bythedockofthebay]

-Rock holds the record of drawing most major shows with 10,000+ attendance on top in one calendar year.
Broke Hogan's(1986) and Austin's(1998) record in 1999 and set a record of headlining over 100 shows with 10,000 plus people in attendance in year 2000.
A box-office drawing record that is unsurpassed till date.

But you're also ignoring the fact WCW sucked then and a lot of their fans switched the channel in 2000 because of that. WWE wasn't great in 2000 but wrestling had just had a huge boom, and even the WCW fans wanted a good wrestling show to watch. Of them, Raw > WCW

Where did this "momentum" go all of a sudden when The Rock left to film The Scorpion King? Why did the PPV buyrates started going down after Rock left in 2001?

It could be that WWE absolutely buried WCW at that time as well. People that were hyped about seeing WCW guys in WWE like Sting, like Goldberg, like Flair were sadly disappointed. And WCW fans (even those that had switched the channel) simply didn't want to see WCW made into a joke and put on equal footing with ECW.

He did continue to do so until he was there. The buyrates started going downhill after he left for movies.

The buyrates were down until a guy named Cena came along and then business went up, and hit a million buyrates multiple times during his run. That's a fact.

-Yet WCW was still getting over 3.2-3.5 million viewers weekly until their last episode.

In December of 2000 WCW was drawing a 1.8 rating. And it had been declining for a long time. Now I don't know about you but that's piss poor. There last episode drew a 3.0 rating, which isn't great but much better, and if you think about it being the last time it was going to be seen of course more people were watching.

I am not even that big of a Rock fan but Rock was and still is a huge draw. Wrestlemania 27, 28 and 29 all got 1 Million buys because of Rock.

You're failing to mention the guy that has been over and has main evented in more 1 million plus buyrate shows than anyone else. The guy that was involved in all those main events. John Cena. So you can say it's all Rock but clearly the numbers show that Cena has taking the WWE to heights unseen. And that's just a fact.

 

[Bernkastel]

-Rock holds the record of drawing most major shows with 10,000+ attendance on top in one calendar year.
Broke Hogan's(1986) and Austin's(1998) record in 1999 and set a record of headlining over 100 shows with 10,000 plus people in attendance in year 2000.
A box-office drawing record that is unsurpassed till date.

Sammartino sold out MSG over 200 times. MSG holds a capacity of 20,000. Already, right there, we have found a bigger draw than Rocky.

Where did this "momentum" go all of a sudden when The Rock left to film The Scorpion King? Why did the PPV buyrates started going down after Rock left in 2001?

They started going down before that. And attendance records. Clearly Rocky wasn't able to keep whatever momentum he had in 2000 going if Austin surpassed him again as a draw.

Yet WCW was still getting over 3.2-3.5 million viewers weekly until their last episode.

Compared to how much the WWE was getting? It was universally known that the WWE product was better. So WWE stock dropping in 2001 had little to with WCW going under and more to do with Rock not being as great as he was toted for and the WWE product getting worse.

I am not even that big of a Rock fan but Rock was and still is a huge draw.

I never said Rock wasn't a huge draw. I said he wasn't the best draw. Him being outside the top 8 of all time is certainly more accurate than him being listed in the top 5 of all time. Unless you're counting just strictly WWE stars. Then he'd be top 5.

 

[ProWrestlingFan]

But you're also ignoring the fact WCW sucked then and a lot of their fans switched the channel in 2000 because of that.

Must have missed this:

1999 - 1. The Rock (set all-time record for most big gates in one year)

You're failing to mention the guy that has been over and has main evented in more 1 million plus buyrate shows than anyone else. The guy that was involved in all those main events. John Cena. So you can say it's all Rock but clearly the numbers show that Cena has taking the WWE to heights unseen. And that's just a fact.

Yeah...thats why Wrestlemania 24, Wrestlemania 25, Wrestlemania 26 all got under 1 million buys. All those Wrestlemanias had Cena in one of the main events wrestling for a World title.

Nobody bought Wrestlemania 27 to see Cena vs Miz.

Royal Rumble 2013 - 579,000 buys (highest since 2003)...Rock was in the WWE title match. Thats all the proof you need of why Rock was the reason for those Wrestlemania buys

 

[Bythedockofthebay]

Must have missed this:





Yeah...thats why Wrestlemania 24, Wrestlemania 25, Wrestlemania 26 all got under 1 million buys. All those Wrestlemanias had Cena in one of the main events wrestling for a World title.

And? So because Cena doesn't get a million buyrates every single mania so he doesn't get consideration? Interesting. The Rock has one mania without Cena where he topped a million buys. And that was with Austin at 17. Cena has consistently put up much better numbers than the Rock. With Cena and Rock on the card WWE has done amazing. With Rock they've done good, With Cena the buyrates have been great.

Nobody bought Wrestlemania 27 to see Cena vs Miz.

No they paid to see Cena and Rock.

Royal Rumble 2013 - 579,000 buys (highest since 2003)...Rock was in the WWE title match. Thats all the proof you need of why Rock was the reason for those Wrestlemania buys

Who won the royal rumble? Oh wait I know the answer!!!! That John Cena guy, could it be that they draw well together? Which would explain why Rock draws much better with Cena than anyone else? And that Cena draws slightly better with the rock? I think that might be it.

 

[ProWrestlingFan]

Who won the royal rumble? Oh wait I know the answer!!!! That John Cena guy, could it be that they draw well together? Which would explain why Rock draws much better with Cena than anyone else? And that Cena draws slightly better with the rock? I think that might be it.

Royal Rumble 2005 : Cena was in the Royal Rumble match
Royal Rumble 2006 : Cena vs Edge
Royal Rumble 2007 : Cena vs Umaga
Royal Rumble 2008 : Cena won the Royal Rumble
Royal Rumble 2009 : Cena vs JBL
Royal Rumble 2010 : Cena was in the Royal Rumble match
Royal Rumble 2011 : Cena was in the Royal Rumble match
Royal Rumble 2012 : Cena vs Kane

None of those Royal Rumbles did more buyrates than Royal Rumble 2013.

What was different about Royal Rumble 2013? The Rock was in the WWE title match vs. CM Punk.

If Cena was doing so good by himself, WWE would not be relying/paying millions to part-timers like they do nowadays.

 

[Bythedockofthebay]

Royal Rumble 2005 : Cena was in the Royal Rumble match
Royal Rumble 2006 : Cena vs Edge
Royal Rumble 2007 : Cena vs Umaga
Royal Rumble 2008 : Cena won the Royal Rumble
Royal Rumble 2009: Cena vs JBL
Royal Rumble 2010 : Cena was in the Royal Rumble match
Royal Rumble 2011 : Cena was in the Royal Rumble match
Royal Rumble 2012 : Cena vs Kane

None of those Royal Rumble's did more buyrates than Royal Rumble 2013.

What was different about Royal Rumble 2013? The Rock was in the WWE title match vs. CM Punk.

If Cena was doing so good by himself, WWE would not be relying/paying millions to part-timers like they do nowadays.

My point was that Cena was doing great, not that the WWE can't do better with someone like the Rock with Cena. Cena and the Rock are both great draws. Put them together in a match or on a card and it's better for business. It's kind of like saying a huge bag of diamonds is good, but two would be better.

Sure you could be content with one huge bag but if you can get the second bag (even if that bag is a little smaller) I'm sure you'd take it. Two big draws> one big draw. I think the math is simple.

 

[TheOneAndOnlyGOAT]

No, he's not. He's on the bottom of the top 10. 11th since it's debatable Flair was a bigger gate puller. Hogan, Rikidozan, Santo, Sammartino, Thesz, Lewis, Inoki, and Austin were all much bigger draws than Rocky. The likes of Rocca and Gagne and Gotch were on par with him. Hell, even Cena is probably on par with him.

The only reason Rock remained as relevant as he has is because of the success he's found in Hollywood.

Hahahaha lmao.

You're kidding me right? None of these jabronies come close to Rock's drawing ability. Not even close.

The Rock is arguably the biggest draw in wrestling history.

And Ric Flair a bigger draw than Rock? Hahaha lmao.

 

[TheOneAndOnlyGOAT]

Cena is bigger than Rock

John Cena doesn't even come close to The Rock.

Quality > Quantity

 

[Bernkastel]

Hahahaha lmao.

You're kidding me right? None of these jabronies come close to Rock's drawing ability. Not even close.

Hogan - biggest wrestling star in the history of the US and the 80's.
Santo - biggest wrestling star in the history of Mexico.
Rikidozan - biggest wrestling star in the history of Japan.
Lewis - biggest wrestling star through the 20's, 30's, and 40's
Sammartino - biggest wrestling star in the world in the 70's.
Thesz - biggest wrestling star through the 50's and 60's.
Gotch - biggest wrestling star at the turn of the century. Popularized pro wrestling in the US.
Inoki - second biggest wrestling star in the history of Japan and owned and operated the most successful promotion in the nation.
Austin - second biggest star in the United States and the biggest star of the 90's.

Rock is 4th overall as a draw just counting strictly WWE guys. At best he barely makes the top 10.

The Rock is arguably the biggest draw in wrestling history.

No he's not. Only idiots would think that he was.

And Ric Flair a bigger draw than Rock? Hahaha lmao.

At one point Flair was considered to be the second best gate puller on a consistent level in the US only behind Hogan.

 

[Sundar]

On the mic he was second to none. Guys like Hogan and The Rock relied on catchphrases whereas Punk did not need them.

 

[Bythedockofthebay]

John Cena doesn't even come close to The Rock.

Quality > Quantity

You are correct, but when you put Quality and Quantity together you have John Cena .

 

[TheOneAndOnlyGOAT]

You are correct, but when you put Quality and Quantity together you have John Cena .

Rock = Quality
Cena = Quantity

Rock > Cena

My opinion.

 

[TheOneAndOnlyGOAT]

Hogan - biggest wrestling star in the history of the US and the 80's.
Santo - biggest wrestling star in the history of Mexico.
Rikidozan - biggest wrestling star in the history of Japan.
Lewis - biggest wrestling star through the 20's, 30's, and 40's
Sammartino - biggest wrestling star in the world in the 70's.
Thesz - biggest wrestling star through the 50's and 60's.
Gotch - biggest wrestling star at the turn of the century. Popularized pro wrestling in the US.
Inoki - second biggest wrestling star in the history of Japan and owned and operated the most successful promotion in the nation.
Austin - second biggest star in the United States and the biggest star of the 90's.

Thank you Mr. Obvious. I know who these guys are. Btw you're mistaken a lot with some of these infos. Won't go into details.

No he's not. Only idiots would think that he was.

You're a 26 year old grown men who like cartoons. You're in no position to call anyone an idiot.

At one point Flair was considered to be the second best gate puller on a consistent level in the US only behind Hogan.

Indeed he was. Did he drew as much as Rock? Absolutely not.

 

[Bythedockofthebay]

Rock = Quality
Cena = Quantity

Rock > Cena

My opinion.

Well merchandise numbers have Cena ahead as well as overall ppv buyrates and also their average buyrates when they've been involved in the WM main event. Just saying, Cena has both, even if you think Rock has Quality over Cena, that's quite a bit on Quantity. And you don't get that much Quantity without a lot of Quality.

 

[TheOneAndOnlyGOAT]

Well merchandise numbers have Cena ahead as well as well as overall ppv buyrates and also their average buyrates when they've been involved in the WM main event. Just saying, Cena has both, even if you think Rock has Quality over Cena, that's quite a bit on Quantity. And you don't get that much Quantity without a lot of Quality.

Cena sold more merch than Rock? What's your proof?

Rock main evented more PPV with 400K+ buys in 2000 more than Cena in his entire career.

Rock crushes Cena in PPV numbers.

 

[Bernkastel]

Thank you Mr. Obvious. I know who these guys are. Btw you're mistaken a lot with some of these infos. Won't go into details.

Obviously you don't, otherwise you wouldn't be dumb enough to say the Rock drew more than them. And no, I'm not mistaken. Rock was a big name, but he was big enough to be considered par of the elite 8.

You're a 26 year old grown men who like cartoons. You're in no position to call anyone an idiot.

Nice fallacy. The universal position taken by those that are clearly talking out their ass.

Indeed he was. Did he drew as much as Rock? Absolutely not.

Debatable. They were on par if anything else. Prove to me that Rock was bigger objectively.

 

[MrJay]

Where does CM Punk rate among the all-time best? That's simple, he doesn't. I know he has this cult following that thinks he's the greatest thing ever, but the fact of the matter is, the man isn't a draw. And I don't want to hear about how the business is in a decline either. Hulk Hogan came along when business was down, he comes in, drops a leg on the Iron Shiek, starts talking about how Hulkamania is running wild, and business took off. Steve Austin came along when the WWE was at it's lowest point, won cuts a promo about Austin 3:16 and starts drawing major money. CM Punk comes along when business is bad, cuts the hot promo.........and if he wasn't main eventing a ppv with Cena or The Rock, the ppv sold worse with Punk headlining the show than it did the previous year. There's a reason that John Cena was main eventing the majority of the ppvs even though Punk was World champion..........Punk wasn't a draw.

 

[Bythedockofthebay]

Cena sold more merch than Rock? What's your proof?

Rock main evented more PPV with 400K+ buys in 2000 more than Cena in his entire career.

Rock crushes Cena in PPV numbers.

Umm I just looked and while I can't be certain (I just checked major PPV's) pretty sure rock didn't main event 13 ppvs in 2000

 

[ProWrestlingFan]

Debatable. They were on par if anything else. Prove to me that Rock was bigger objectively.

Between 1999-2000 Rock main evented 17 PPVs that got over 500K buys.

Average WWE house show attendance (1991-2001)

WWF Champion-- Avg House Show(attend.)-- Days Champion

Steve Austin---- 9,610---- 529
The Rock---- 11,734---- 262
Triple H---- 11,730---- 224
Bret Hart---- 3,954---- 654
Shawn Michaels---- 6,018---- 396
Kurt Angle---- 10,403---- 141
The Undertaker---- 7,050---- 175
Hulk Hogan---- 4,916---- 250
Diesel---- 2,961-- 358
Yokozuna---- 3,467---- 280
Mankind---- 12,813---- 47
Big Show---- 11,916---- 50
Ric Flair---- 4,905---- 118
Randy Savage---- 3,746---- 149
Sycho Sid---- 5,252---- 97
Chris Jericho---- 7,685---- 23

https://sites.google.com/site/chrisharrington/mookieghana-prowrestlingstatistics/avghouseshow


-This is a thread about CM Punk and people are arguing about Rock's drawing power