Where did all the Men go?

[Kizzani]

I was catching up on Raw and watched the Moment when Sin Cara hurt his little putty tat. I had to pause the show and come and post because I am so disgusted. Why you ask?

These are Supposedly grown men getting paid more than enough money to put on a show. if you listen you can hear Del Rio say to the ref "Get the F**k out of here".

Shawn Micheals wrestled with a Broken back,
Steve Austin Finished a match with a broken Neck, He also took a shot in the mouth at King of the ring, got 12 stitches and came back later that night and wrestled.
Triple H wrestled with his knee blown
Mick Foley----NOUGH said
All of ECW wrestled broken beaten and bruise
John Cena look at his elbow

I am sure there is a list a mile long of other STARS that have done the same.

I like Sin Cara but it is time to revoke that green card...Mistico time to go home.

Again where did all the men go? The WWE is the New DIVA division.

 

[Coco]

I think the answer here is obvious. The men are gone because the men were morons. Everyone on that list is except Cena is retired, super part-time, or working the indies two weekends a month because they can't take it any more. And Cena is on the shelf right now. The men are gone because they didn't do everything that was necessary to preserve their bodies and their livelihoods.

Wrestlers ought to be smarter and do more to protect themselves. If that means being called a pussy, then so be it. Maybe wrestling needs more *****es.

 

[H33LTurn]

Well theres less respect for the business than there was before. A lot of these guys came up during the territory days and were taught the kind of discipline that it takes to wrestle with broken bones. Also, looking at your list, most of those people had no other choice. Shawn would've gotten legit beaten up by Taker if he didn't job when he had to, Steve Austin was trying to prove himself to Owen, Triple H hasnt always been well liked backstage so he definitely needs to preserve his status, Mick Foley had a crap life and wasnt respected in any other promotion, WWE makes it worth Cena's time to wrestle through injuries (he's a role model backstage so if he *****es out he legitimizes people like Sin Cara). As for ECW, it was full of shit people who already tortured their boddies with extreme drug use and drinking. Had they not been wrestling they would probably be on a street corner or jail.

On to Sin Cara. I dont think he's taking his run with WWE seriously. His incident with Del Rio is ironic since its another person who was huge in their home country, being booked like shit by the WWE, and has all the reason to walk away from the WWE. I dont think Cara had a real reason to wrestle with a broken finger because he legitimately doesnt care about whether the match gets finished or not. I wouldn't charge the entire roster with this, however, seeing as in the past year we've had Cena wrestle with the elbow injury, Punk with the knee injury, and Dbry opposing to his match being cut short after hitting his head outside.

 

[Dagron]

I can understand relaying to Del Rio that they have to alter a few spots due to his inability to execute some moves, but for crying out loud, finish the match. It's a f*cking finger. ONE FINGER. Man up and do your job.

 

[Coco]

I honestly doubt anyone in this thread has ever had to work through a finger injury. Recording survey results with my carpel tunnel is hard enough. But these guys have a truly physically demanding line of work. I think anyone demanding that they push through such injuries is bloodthirsty and doesn't really appreciate what these guys do for us.

It's easy to talk about manning up while you sit behind your computer and sip away at your soda pop. But anyone who steps into that ring IS a real man in my book. And Sin Cara is a smart man for knowing his limits and a brave man for calling it in spite of the criticism he knew he'd receive. The man stood up for his beliefs and I respect that.

 

[THTRobtaylor]

Respect for the business is twofold, it's not about working hurt because that's "the done thing"... look at it logically, it's "just a finger", so Cara's lifting ability is hampered immediately, he can't safely lift Del Rio or control his body with that hand if he needs to stabilise...

Imagine if he HAD carried on and dropped Del Rio on his head cos of the injury, Del Rio is then hurt/out/dead take your pick and people say "Why did you not stop?"

The E also has to be seen to be safe... if he reports an injury then it becomes the ref/backs call via the earpiece... Sure a lot of guys hate it that matches get stopped but the Bryan/Trips altercation was the watershed... storyline or not, the E no longer wants guys going hurt with those kind of injuries...

To guys of the old school, it's alien but then all they should do is look at Foley next time he shows up... Don't try this at home means "don't work hurt" too...

 

[Dagron]

Speaking from my own experience as a former semi professional rugby player, I've played an entire season with a severely torn rotator cuff (in 3 muscle group tie ins out of 4), dealt with a torn lower lumbar from botched ATG squats, dislocated hips, played with a dislocated shoulder, played with a severely dislocated ankle, played with a concussion (BLASPHEMY I KNOW) as well as a ruptured medial biceps head. Some of those I worked through, some of those I absolutely could not. Injuries do hurt, but a real professional knows whether it's something he can work around or if he's going to make it substantially worse by continuing.

In short, I can safely say to "man up". It's one damned finger. I'm pretty sure Sin Cara could have taken a couple bumps and then a head kick followed by a 1-2-3. He just proved what everybody should already know; he's dead weight, and he's gotta go.

 

[Dirk]

I get where the OP is coming from, I mean it's hardly Hansen v Vader.

I think, in general, athletes have become smarter. They know that if they prolong their careers, they get to make more dough.

Sin Cara is in a bad way and I feel for him - being relegated from Mistico to his position now must hurt. On the other hand, he's been with the company for quite a while now and he STILL doesn't speak?

To guys of the old school, it's alien but then all
they should do is look at Foley next time he shows
up...

Yeah, I've read Foley can't even tie his shoes without assistance. It's just not worth it.

 

[Deste003]

The main issue here is the passion of Sin Cara. He hurt his finger and wanted to stop the match because allegedly word from the back says he moans when hes booked to lose. But he comes out the following night and fights through all that pain and he wins. I have major respect for all the guys in wrestling especially those that fight through the pain of being injured. I actually trained to be a wrestler for about 3 months and I almost broke my neck on a botched move. The next morning I could not even move my neck let alone be prepared for something as physical as a match. More power to them and I respect them more because they love and have a passion for what they do.

 

[THTRobtaylor]

Passion is one thing, but the reality is while you had passion enough to learn for those 3 months, take the move - had you never walked again etc then it's only your world and the guy who dropped you in reality that changes...

If Sin Cara botches cos he knows he is hurt, the ref knows he is hurt (thus the office do through the earpiece) and Del Rio never walks again or worse then it's the entire company and all those associated with it whose world is quite possibly destroyed.

Marty Jannetty "broke" Chuck Austin's neck in a botch... the botch was with Austin but WWE was found liable and it cost them $26m in 1993/94, so nearer to $75m in adjusted which would be well over quarter of the E's revenue last (and most if it in 94) year. That was where the guy delivering the move wasn't overly reckless, the guy taking it took a roll not a faceplant as told to and there was no reason either shouldn't have been in the ring.

Now imagine my scenario above for Monday... Del Rio never works or walks again... you're talking HUNDREDS of millions of dollars in payouts because the ref knew Cara's hand was injured. Suddenly the WWE is laying people off, at financial peril again because a judge is not going to agree that Cara should "man up", he's gonna say carrying on was unsafe and he and thus the E if they knew through their ref were at fault and thus they lose most of their cash cos of one dislocated finger...

It's not just piledrivers and those kind of moves that can end careers, a simple mistime on a basic move or Cara not being able to stop something going wrong cos he can't control his opponents weight as his finger won't move or allow him to grip and it all goes horribly wrong, look at Barrett's arm for example for what happens if your opponent moves from what you're expecting and you can't adjust...

 

[rkinne01]

"Well theres less respect for the business than there was before. A lot of these guys came up during the territory days and were taught the kind of discipline that it takes to wrestle with broken bones".

No those guys wrestled with broken bones because they had no medical insurance and got paid barely enough to get a hotel room and a meal, that is if the promoters at the time didn't end up stiffing the talent.

 

[shalliin]

It's a shame that it is a finger that was injured as this lead more credence to haters to bitch about Sin Cara. As someone who suffered several injuries to my hand (including dislocated fingers and cracked one of the inner bones of the hand), I know how much it can hurt. Hell, when I don't pay attention and moving my thumb, I can still pop it out of the socket without meaning to. TO the poster who talked about playing rugby with torn rotator cuff and dislocation shoulder and concussions: Shame on you. This doesn't make you more of a man, it makes you an idiot.
Could the match have been continued? Maybe, but the point is why? Maybe instead of calling for the end, he could, as someone mentioned, sold something and been counted out. OR could have gotten back to the ring, taken a slam or something and been rolled up.
But here's the thing: People are asking what if the match continued and DEL RIO got hurt because cara couldn't support/protect him. Why is no one considering what if Cara got hurt worse? Say the match continues, Del Rio stomps the hand, or goes for the arm bar. It looks like it was his left hand that was hurt, and teh armbar is sed on that arm 95% of the time. They are trained to use the left arm for those types of holds and submissions, and instinct would kick in for ADR who pulls on the wrist/hand of Cara and causes further damage to the hand. OF he goes to do something as simple as a bodyslam and acting in instinct, Cara slaps his hands down to cushion the blow. His dislocated finger is now a busted hand.
Sometimes it does work to try and continue through an injury, but other times it doesn't. This was a nothing match on a post SS raw where neither was being the focus of the show. Why should they risk injuring themselves any further then what happened.
All those moments you talk about, the vast majority were during major/important ppv's or the end/start of a feud. Times have changed and there is more concern for the wrestler's well being. It's time to put away that idiotic and dangerous 'show must go on' attitude.
It's that attitude that has basically crippled Foley, semi retired HHH and Taker, permanently retired HBK, paralyzed Droz, and lead to the situations that resulted in so many early deaths like Eddie, Benoit, and so many others.

It might not have been the 'manly' thing to do, or the 'wrestling' thing to do, but SC showed that his health was more important then a nothing match, and that is nothing less then the smart thing to do. Maybe in a higher profile match, he tries to continue, but there was no reason to do so during this match.

Also, it wasn't until this thread that I've ever heard a hint of the so called attitude SC is supposedly known for having. I've never heard a word mentioned about any previous issues with doing the job to anyone until the start of this thread. I've heard people question his work ethic in relation to 'botches' but never his desire to be in the ring or an unwillingness to take a loss. So I'd like someone to post a link to one of these 'sources' that they have heard this from. Show me something I can see, or stop making up bullshit.

 

[Dagron]

All of these arguments against Cara continuing are baffling to me if not downright laughable. He's not going to botch a move and hurt Del Rio if all he had to do was take a few bumps and take a pin fall. If Sin Cara were at all mentally and emotionally invested in his craft in the WWE right now, he would have done an improv finish. But he isn't. That's why he's a joke, and that's why he needs to go.

 

[shalliin]

Also, it wasn't until this thread that I've ever heard a hint of the so called attitude SC is supposedly known for having. I've never heard a word mentioned about any previous issues with doing the job to anyone until the start of this thread. I've heard people question his work ethic in relation to 'botches' but never his desire to be in the ring or an unwillingness to take a loss. So I'd like someone to post a link to one of these 'sources' that they have heard this from. Show me something I can see, or stop making up bullshit.

Sorry, forgot to add:
Unless you are yourself in the back with the performers and staff, any so called knowledge you have of the inner workings is nothing more then rumors and lies. You're nothing but the worst kind of smark/ IWC member who thinks he's a worker. Get over yourselves and try to learn about reality. It's usually a lot of fun, which is why we all started watching wrestling in the first place, isn't it?

 

[Headman]

I honestly doubt anyone in this thread has ever had to work through a finger injury. Recording survey results with my carpel tunnel is hard enough. But these guys have a truly physically demanding line of work. I think anyone demanding that they push through such injuries is bloodthirsty and doesn't really appreciate what these guys do for us.

It's easy to talk about manning up while you sit behind your computer and sip away at your soda pop. But anyone who steps into that ring IS a real man in my book. And Sin Cara is a smart man for knowing his limits and a brave man for calling it in spite of the criticism he knew he'd receive. The man stood up for his beliefs and I respect that.

Um, High school football. I broke two fingers in the first quarter. I sat out one possession before going back in. As another guy said, it's a finger. Man up.

 

[Pedigree1]

Sin Cara is getting crapped on a lot lately. This latest incident sure doesnt help him anyway trying to prove how tough he is. Yes its a finger you say,just a tiny finger. But he should have man'd up not been such a pussy some say. ADR can Well,what if the worse happened? He botches a simple bodyslam,causing permanent injury to ADR.

ADR can never walk again let alone wrestle. ADR of course,would sue THE WWE possibly for everything the company has. That catastrophic event would probably force WWE to lay off most of their roster to cover the damages. Old school stars yes,were tough real men as we say. But all the old timers are retired some before their time and some wrestle in high school gyms twice a month max because their bodies are too damaged for anything else.

Stars today,have to be smarter if your hurt you say so. Who cares if people think your a pussy. Your the only one paying your bills not them! sin Cara is really in a tough spot. He really hasnt exactly been the guy the WWE thought he would have been. This latest incident sure has not helped at all!

 

[BigThunder]

Where did all the men go? Cena wrestled with a torn tricep and a baseball in his elbow.

Plenty of folks work through injuries in WWE. I may not always like the wrestlers, but I do have a helluva lot of respect for their ability to work through levels of pain that would have me sobbing like a little girl.

 

[R.K.O]

Punk worked through a knee injury, Rock worked through an injury and finished the match, Cena everybody knows, Ziggler finished a match with a concussion, Cody Rhodes finished a match with a shoulder injury, and many more. There are men and always will have men in the WWE.

I don't get why people are so worked up about Sin Cara stopping the match, it was a filler match and probably won't be any good anyway. It's not like it's the main event of Wrestlemania or anything.

 

[klunderbunker]

What did anyone expect to happen in the match? Sin Cara to have a career making performance and beat Del Rio in 28:17 with a 900 splash off the top of the building after countering the armbreaker 19 times?

It was a squash and probably had about a minute left in it at most. Sin Cara's hand was badly hurt and he probably couldn't think through the pain. Do you want someone who has a history of issues with botches flying through the air unable to think straight while wearing a mask? He stopped the match because of an injury. It's been done before, it'll be done again.

As for the people mentioned,

Austin had to miss a year because of that injury and had no business being in the ring even for his rematch with Owen.

Shawn wrestled one match in nearly five years because of his back and had to take three months off to get ready for that.

Foley has WAY more body mass to absorb those blows. He's so messed up he can't put his own socks on now.

HHH blew out his quad, not his knee ham head.

The ECW guys aren't around anymore because they're not talented enough to get a job in WWE or TNA. Or they're old as the company folded over 12 years ago. Let it die already.

 

[THTRobtaylor]

The rugby player I agree, shameful... If someone got their neck broke cos your cuff led to a collapsed scrum?

To the guy who doesn't "get" the defence of Cara I say you don't get wrestling, business or law... That it's an entertainment product, sold by a company employing people to perform highly dangerous stunts... If they let guys continue who are hurt and it goes south, it's called criminal negligence!!!

 

[BarryHorowitzfanclub]

Hump all of this. It's a finger, even if broken horribly, and the match could have been quick scripted to end. It's been done, and will be done later. Unless it has storyline ties, there is really no reason whatsoever to just call a match.

 

[The Eighties]

I think people are going overboard using Mick Foley as an example and talking all this stuff about Sin Cara could have hurt Del Rio if they tried to finish.

There was a simple middle gorund, he tells Del Rio he's hurt, Del Rio rolls him back into the ring, kicks him in the head and pins him. He has no heat and can then go and get his finger fixed without any further injury to him or Bertie, eveyone's a winner!

As for the thread title question, Cena worked the night before with an elbow the size of a grapefruit and Punk wrestled the night after his physical match with Lesnar where he was clearly banged up, and Seth Rollins hurt his knee on Raw and worked through it, came back and worked two more segments.

 

[greatmuta]

Where did all the men go? It's not about men. It's about wrestlers. Lita competed with a broken neck she didn't even know was broke, tore her ACL and still climbed back into the ring to finish the match and wrestled most of another match with her face covered in her own blood.
Maybe not on today's roster, but plenty of yesterday's "divas" worked through a lot more pain than just in their fingers.
As for Sin Cara, wrestling through an injury is an option. He decided the reward wasn't worth the trouble. He made a business decision. Believe it or not, professional wrestling is a business.

 

[THTRobtaylor]

And both men had had their injury assessed by a doctor who would have given a recommendation. They were medically "cleared" although as angles sometimes allude to that in itself can be open to abuse... Cena and Punk could 'find' a doctor who would clear them and with the PPV riding on their shoulders any risk is mitigated against refunds.. The matches were planned taking the inuries into account and both guys would have been very honest about what was and wasn't on, same for Edge in his last match... Would he have got heat for stopping it if ADR botched and hurt him...of course he would...till the story came out.

Ultimately Cara was not in that position. Had they stopped the match, brought a doctor down, assessed it and then stopped it what heat could he have? For saying he had dislocated it? All he knew was that his finger, thus his arm was not working to a capacity HE was comfortable taking a risk on, sure it's a TV match but it goes as a stoppage loss for him so saying he didn't want to job is crap.

In any sport certain injuries trigger the end of particpation or the contest.. Some will try and gut it out but a ref will have the final say, they will force substitutions or blood bins in rugby, soccer or even if someone needs treatment they have to go off the field and be assessed... Only when the ref is happy do they come back on. In a boxing match, ref even hears a bone is damaged and its game over, with no heat on the boxer unless like David Haye, they whine later.

While refs in WWE are not reffing a legit contest, they are still the guys ultimately responsible for health and safety in the ring, they will have a list of things to stop the match for without question and dislocation, even of a pinky would be on there if the talent feels safety is at risk cos like I said earlier $26m paid out cos the GUY WHO GOT HURT AND GOT THE MONEY did it wrong!

Manning up, working hurt may be the norm but it really is a mugs game... How tough would those people be when someone else pays for their foolishness? Hell even the most famed botch ever was handled SO wrong cos of this exact mentality... Owen knew Austin was in trouble... Yet let Austin move to pin him, you NEVER let a neck injury move!!! The right thing was Owen pinning Austin or the match ending, yet both were lauded... Had Austin stayed flat, gone out on the board as he should have he might not have had half the issues he did!!

 

[MCMG]

Wrestling has changed and each superstar is different. It is a bit harsh comparing Sin Cara jobbing to Del Rio on a random Raw Cena at a Summerslam, HHH, or any ECW superstar. It was a little ridiculous that Sin Cara stopped the match but if he can't continue then he can't continue.

If we are talking about injuries and toughness in general, the WWE are being cautious with the health of their superstars. Not everyone has the longevity of Kane and can wrestle at such a high quality for a long time. If they want to prevent serious injuries and a superstar retiring prematurely then I'm all for caution. Fuck knows the kind off injuries and serious damage that Mick Foley, Sabu and Tommy Dreamer have.

Remember how everyone reacted when Edge retired; what if he was a "pussy" throughout his career and was still wrestling today. A counter to that is some of his best matches were gimmick matches with the Hardy Boyz, Dudley Boys, Mick Foley, Cena and would he and the WWE substitute that for retiring a few years early.

Another point is, is it better to risk your body in the short term for instant success or being a "pussy" and having a longer career and being more healthy but not reaching the pinnacle of your profession.

Sooner rather have a bunch of *****es than other Benoit...