WHC Lineage

[Redemption-2012]

The World championship is secondary because the WWE have essentially buried it in recent years. They have made it seem less important and put it on guys like Sheamus, Del Rio, The Big Show etc...all glorified mid card guys. I think a great way to bring back some prestige is by letting Dolph Ziggler win it back, have him hold it until WrestleMania and defend against a Daniel Bryan for example.

Have Daniel Bryan win the royal rumble and challenge Dolph Ziggler for the World championship at WM XXX. This would be a very good match, and would also reestablish some importance back to the World championship.

 

[Dagger Dias]

The World Heavyweight Championship is an important part of WWE. Some people like to look at the past few Wrestlemanias to argue that the title has dropped in prestige.

It isn't just Wrestlemania card positioning. It's every PPV event. The WWE and World Heavyweight Championships used to take turns closing shows. Fall 2010 is when this ended. They need to take turns closing shows again, EVERY brand of PPV event, not just Wrestlemania.

Now let's turn to your statements on how the WWE Championship has supposedly been mistreated at Wrestlemania events.

It wasn't even featured at Wrestlemania 1.

No, but it should have been. The fact that it was the first Wrestlemania event makes it all the more reason why a WWE Championship match should have been on the card.

It was featured in the middle of Wrestlemania 8.

Yes, and it should have closed. Flair even said so himself once, the world titles need to go on last. However, it has never opened the event. The World Heavyweight Championship has twice.

It was hot-shotted at Wrestlemania 9.

Don't remind me. Wrestlemania 9 is a night I have tried to erase from my memory. Regardless, it still went on last.

It didn't close the show at Wrestlemania 11.

Yes, and Wrestlemania 11 was the worst edition of the brand other than possibly Wrestlemania 9. You're not helping your argument. Plus, it was second to last. That's nowhere near as bad as going first.

It was clearly the fourth match in priority depth at Wrestlemania 20.

And look what closed.... The World Heavyweight Championship. This needs to happen more often.

It didn't close the show at Mania 21, 22, 24, 26, or 28. In fact, it was mid card fodder at 28 and booked very awkwardly at 27.

Wrestlemania 21 it didn't close, but The World Heavyweight Championship did and just as I said in my previous statement, this needs to happen more often in order for that belt to earn back any of the importance it has lost in the past 3 years. That belt closed at 24 as well. At 26 Taker and Shawn needed to go last, everyone knew they were going to steal the show. Excellent choice. I'll give you the akward booking at 27. Miz closing the show as WWE Champion having retained is something I've tried to block out of my memory just as much as Wrestlemania 9.

You stated the WWE Championship didn't close Wrestlemania 22. Then what, might I ask, was the belt that John Cena and Triple H were wrestling for in the final match of the night? Nice try. The WWE Championship closed that show. At Wrestlemania 28 you called it midcard fodder. Not really. It went on second to last. Jericho and Punk delivered the second best match of the evening, the dream match between Cena and Rock going last made sense, but the results are a topic for another thread.

Bottom line is this as follows... you can't judge a title too much by its Wrestlemania treatment. Otherwise, the WWE Championship could also be deemed meaningless.

That's a bit harsh. The WWE Championship has mostly been treated fine at Wrestlemania. They would NEVER open the biggest show of the year with a match for the most important belt (kayfabe but still basically true) in pro wrestling. Yet they did for the World Heavyweight Championship and it never closes a show anymore. They need to either treat the belts equally again or stop having the announcers make statements like Triple H is a 13 time WWE Champion. They are contradicting themselves. If they refuse to the give the belts equal attention then they should unify the secondary title (World Heavyweight Championship) with the favorite (WWE Championship) it's that simple.

 

[MrMojoRisin]

The World Heavyweight Championship is an important part of WWE. Some people like to look at the past few Wrestlemanias to argue that the title has dropped in prestige. However, they fail to mention that for a few years the WWE Championship was used in dubious ways at some of those events:

It wasn't even featured at Wrestlemania 1.

It was featured in the middle of Wrestlemania 8.

It was hot-shotted at Wrestlemania 9.

It didn't close the show at Wrestlemania 11.

It was clearly the fourth match in priority depth at Wrestlemania 20.

It didn't close the show at Mania 21, 22, 24, 26, or 28. In fact, it was mid card fodder at 28 and booked very awkwardly at 27.

Bottom line is this as follows... you can't judge a title too much by its Wrestlemania treatment. Otherwise, the WWE Championship could also be deemed meaningless.

You're looking at it more for what it was, then what it's become. In the past, yes the World championship was treated more as an equal to the WWE title... but that was also when the brand split was more alive and the respective championships belonged to their specific brands (remember too, there was a good time where the WWE title was the property of the B show Smackdown).

Today though, it's treated as the secondary title... exactly like the IC belt used to be, and that's how it should be judged today.

I see this thread was merged with another, and I noticed the debate earlier on the lineage of the World title, and whether or not it's the same as the WCW/NWA lineage. This is so damn murky that it's nearly impossible to tell, and it all dates back to the NWA/WCW split in the early 90's. But as for WWE's debut of the World Championship when Bischoff pulled it out and presented it to Triple H? Keep in mind too that Lesner had just un-unified the championship when he committed himself to only fighting on Smackdown. You can make a case that by doing that, Bischoff was simply reviving the old WCW World championship without the WCW name attached since that company no longer existed. After all, that was the other half of the original unified title. And if you view it that way, then yes the World championship today does share the same lineage that WCW claimed their title had.

Now whether or not you believe that the WCW title had it's lineage go back to the early 1900's (which even precedes the NWA if you want to get super technical), or their lineage only goes back to 1993, that's up to you. I think I'd rather believe that the lineage of the belt of Lou Thesz, Buddy Rogers, Jack Brisco, Harley Race and so many others resides with the title that's at least still the second most important in North America... than with the belt that Rob Conway is currently defending in front of dozens in high school gyms everywhere. That's just me though.

 

[No Count Pup]

Dagger Dias correctly pointed out that the WWE Title match closed Wrestlemania 22. Small mistake on my part, I've never claimed to be infallible. But my overall point is straight forward and remains. If the WWE Championship can be used in dubious ways at past Wrestlemanias, it shouldn't cause too much heartburn if the World Heavyweight Championship is misused at the big show. Let's keep a couple of things in mind about the World Heavyweight Championship since 2002:

7 out of the past 11 Royal Rumble winners have challenged for the World Heavyweight Championship at Wrestlemania. If the WHC was so meaningless, in kayfabe terms, why would so many wrestlers opt to fight for it on wrestling's biggest stage?

If memory serves me correctly, when the Money in the Bank winners were able to pick which titles to cash in on, wrestlers went for the WHC four times and the WWE Title two times. Using kayfabe reasoning, why would a wrestler go through a ladder match only to challenge for a secondary title? The WHC must be a title of equal significance to the WWE Title, otherwise a wrestler would not opt to challenge for the WHC. Again, that is assuming kayfabe reasoning.

WWE doesn't demean it's WHC. For several years, it was contested in large part by Edge and Batista. Today, the title is more associated with Alberto Del Rio, Dolph Ziggler, Sheamus, Big Show, and Mark Henry. Even Orton chased the title for a while. I don't see how that makes it a secondary title. Del Rio is arguably WWE's top heel, Dolph Ziggler gets amazing crowd reactions for his matches, Sheamus is a main eventer capable of wrestling in either world title feuds at any time, and Big Show is a wrestling legend whether most people want to admit it or not.

When the WWE stars gathered on stage on this past Monday's Raw, standing front and center among the wrestlers with his shiny title was Alberto Del Rio. Such a visual reinforces WWE's belief that the WHC matters, and the holder of the title stands apart from everybody else.

I'm aware that there are different opinions regarding the title. Just about every world title in today's wreslting world have needed some rehabilitation. I remember when the WWE Title changed hands again and again in 1999. I also remeber how small the title seemed when John Cena, the WWE Champion at the time, jobbed to Kevin Federline. If the WWE Title was still considered valuable after it's champion was pinned by a non wrestler on Raw, I'm pretty sure we can forgive the occasional shoddy booking of the WHC from time to time. The WHC matters, but like any world title, goes through awkward phases and questionable booking.

 

[CyberPunk]

Dagger Dias correctly pointed out that the WWE Title match closed Wrestlemania 22. Small mistake on my part, I've never claimed to be infallible. But my overall point is straight forward and remains. If the WWE Championship can be used in dubious ways at past Wrestlemanias, it shouldn't cause too much heartburn if the World Heavyweight Championship is misused at the big show. Let's keep a couple of things in mind about the World Heavyweight Championship since 2002:

7 out of the past 11 Royal Rumble winners have challenged for the World Heavyweight Championship at Wrestlemania. If the WHC was so meaningless, in kayfabe terms, why would so many wrestlers opt to fight for it on wrestling's biggest stage?

If memory serves me correctly, when the Money in the Bank winners were able to pick which titles to cash in on, wrestlers went for the WHC four times and the WWE Title two times. Using kayfabe reasoning, why would a wrestler go through a ladder match only to challenge for a secondary title? The WHC must be a title of equal significance to the WWE Title, otherwise a wrestler would not opt to challenge for the WHC. Again, that is assuming kayfabe reasoning.

WWE doesn't demean it's WHC. For several years, it was contested in large part by Edge and Batista. Today, the title is more associated with Alberto Del Rio, Dolph Ziggler, Sheamus, Big Show, and Mark Henry. Even Orton chased the title for a while. I don't see how that makes it a secondary title. Del Rio is arguably WWE's top heel, Dolph Ziggler gets amazing crowd reactions for his matches, Sheamus is a main eventer capable of wrestling in either world title feuds at any time, and Big Show is a wrestling legend whether most people want to admit it or not.

When the WWE stars gathered on stage on this past Monday's Raw, standing front and center among the wrestlers with his shiny title was Alberto Del Rio. Such a visual reinforces WWE's belief that the WHC matters, and the holder of the title stands apart from everybody else.

I'm aware that there are different opinions regarding the title. Just about every world title in today's wreslting world have needed some rehabilitation. I remember when the WWE Title changed hands again and again in 1999. I also remeber how small the title seemed when John Cena, the WWE Champion at the time, jobbed to Kevin Federline. If the WWE Title was still considered valuable after it's champion was pinned by a non wrestler on Raw, I'm pretty sure we can forgive the occasional shoddy booking of the WHC from time to time. The WHC matters, but like any world title, goes through awkward phases and questionable booking.

I think you are missing the point here. I understand that sometimes your world titles do take a backseat to other storylines. But in case of WHC is way behind WWE title. I'll give you an example.

During his amazing promo, Mark Henry mentioned that he has done everything but win WWE title. So, if someone has been a World Heavyweight champion but not WWE champion, he has still something left to conquer. He has been World champion in the same company but he still hasn't won the top prize. That itself makes WHC the second tier title.

When was the last time your top dog (John Cena) went after WHC? Or Punk? Or Bryan? When was the last time your WHC closed a PPV (not Mania, any PPV)? Do you see what I am talking about? Del Rio is not your top heel, he's nowhere close to it. Ziggler is still trying to break into ME scene. Sheamus has not been into any world title scene for sometime now.

I know WWE title is your top prize, but in kayfabe, WHC is the same. But clearly it's not treated as such. As so many have pointed out, it's equivalent to IC title from 80s and 90s. The difference though is when someone wins WHC he's counted as world champion. But whoever won WWE title in last 3 years did not go back to try and win WHC. I just want your established ME guys to get involved in WHC scene every once in a while. Either that, or just unify it with WWE title. Brand extension is dead and same show should not have two top prizes, especially when one is clearly not treated as one.

BTW, I noticed this thread being merged with WHC lineage, but I was not trying to discuss lineage with this thread. I'll leave that to the moderators though.