whats the point in being heel?

[Fratelli]

anyone who saw backlash would have herd a rather loud chant from a section of the audience singing, "na na na nah, na na na nah, hey hey, goodbye" and boo'ed HHH as he left on the sretcher.

i personally havent herd any hate towards HHH as a face recently.

it seems the wwe fans have decided to be ultra cool now, booing all the faces: cena, then punk and now HHH.

are there any heels left in wwe that are truely hated and DONT suck?

therefore kozlov and friends dont count.

 

[Y 2 Jake]

Jericho & Edge. Neither are cool and while they might get some cheers, they're generally booed.

Orton is a ''cool'' heel. Although he does a piss poor job of it. He's taking out all my least favorite wrestlers and I still hate the guy.

 

[Ezekyo]

I give Orton credit for lashing out at fans doing RKO chants n' stuff. It almost seems like a rehash of the Attitude Era, cheering the bad guys and cheering the goody-two-shoes babyfaces. I think Cena right now would be like Bret Hart during the Attitude Era (yes I know, not quite the same technical ability though, lol).

Sometimes it's just cool to cheer the bad guy, you can't tell a fan who they like and don't like. But with that said, kudos to guys like Orton, Jericho and Edge that dig deep to find ways to get heel heat.

And on that note, I still miss Muhammad Hassan.

 

[Johnny_B.Lv]

In the old days, the story lines were almost always heel versus face.
Today, the business has evolved further than the traditional standpoint of old school story lines. Today we can see a face versus face or a heel versus heel program, the problem is that one of them generally makes the switch during of after that program.
I agree that Edge and Jericho are the only true heels of the business today. They are cowards, opportunistic, egotistic, brash, cocky and have great matches with almost everybody in the WWE. Look what Jericho was able to do with Steamboat, or Edge with Cena (not the same thing I know !!!).
A true heel is someone who is supposed to make the face look even better than he really is, either by giving him a nice rub, or a hell of a competitive match. That's the point !
HHH as a heel did that, he put others over and made great matches along the way. However as a face, he has gotten so stale, it makes Matt Hardy look like the most charismatic superstar (sorry Matt !, I do believe in you though). It's just repetitive and f'n boring !!!
Randy should be the next generation of heels, with all of the attributes of the old school heel but he wins cleanly most of the time and doesn't need legacy interfering !!!
There hasn't really been a cool heel where he wins and wins decicively, Randy Orton could be that guy, just give him a chance. Heels make stars, that's always been the case, Randy as an awesome Heel could produce the future face stars of the wwe !!!

 

[JGlass]

Edge and Jericho, I say, are hated by the majority of WWE fans. I'd also like to think Big Show is generally hated on too, though if he's facing another tweener or if there are other heels in the match, he's usually more over than them. Also, Shelton is almost always booed.

And Vickie? She couldn't buy a cheer if she wanted one.

 

[bluejt16]

edge as a heel over all is good, edge as a heel with that fat oath...vicky gurrero and that slightly smaller than gurrero big show is REALLY BAD! edge and lita, now that was a different story, how can you be the rated-rrrr superstarrrr if it's rated-PG?

orton has said it himself that he hates being a face and would happily be a heel his whole career, and i agree with him, as a face he's alright, as a heel he's the future.

 

[RawIsRamsey]

The WWE has also been stopping in some of the more quirky cities here recently (London is usually heel-friendly, north east US is full of smarks, etc.), so it could just be a "right place, right time" sort of situation for the much-needed "Hey, we fucking HATE Triple H" crowd. Maybe Vince will listen to the reactions of the past few weeks and stop the TripleCena shove down our throats...as soon as Triple H outed himself as a McMahon, it was only a matter of time before the crowd turned on him and realized he's in the position he is in because of his family ties...at this point, the only thing that will save him is a heel turn or retirement, because he certainly has lost his position on top of Mt. Perpetually Over (current population: Shawn Michaels, The Undertaker, and Sting).

As for pure heels with talent, there really isn't one...most of the really awesome heels are also really talented (Jericho, Edge) so the smark audience will cheer them...until his retirement, I think the only person who could work a (arguable) good match and NEVER generate babyface heat is JBL. Outside of that, I think the only person now who can get heat AND can wrestle is Jack Swagger.

 

[Captain America]

I think what fans are doing is becoming sick of being told who to like and who not to like. Were sick and tired of guys being shoved down our throats.

 

[Ambiguous Turd]

I think what fans are doing is becoming sick of being told who to like and who not to like. Were sick and tired of guys being shoved down our throats.

Where as I can agree with that to an extent, someone has to be billed as the Main Draws of the show.

So if you don't want to pick someone, than what do you do?

In my opinion, it isn't so much as "Cena being shoved down people's throats" as much as the problem lies with his character himself, and the struggle taking place between the Attitude Era fans and the Modern Day fans (with the Kids), which is actually what I think is more so taking place in arenas today ... with the Attitude Era fans who would be more receptive to an edgy John Cena (such as his Rapper gimmick).

 

[D-Man]

The thing that I love the most about the business of professional wrestling is that no matter what Vince and company does to sway our ways of thinking, the voices of the collective audience will always be heard. Whether we bitch and moan on these IWC websites or go to the live shows and make some noise, WWE management can never hide it's audiences loud voice and opinions. And the more the WWE tries to make us like something, the more we come back and tell them that we hate it.

I agree with Captain America... the WWE always tries to dictate who their audience should and should not like. During the attitude era, the audience decided to rebel against WWE management by booing the living shit out of Rocky Maivia and "The Ringmaster" Steve Austin. Through the flames and burnt ash emerged "Stone Cold" Steve Austin and The Rock... two of the greatest, most liked, most criticised, most popular, and most mimicked superstars (by the audience) of all time.

I think we are going to witness a rebirth like this again. Whether it be John Cena, CM Punk, or Jeff Hardy, one of them is going to get sick of the fans, get the OK from WWE management and fire back. This will create what has been known as their true character "with the volume turned up". As we've seen in the past, the greatest gimmicks in pro-wrestling have used this formula. They find their TRUE selves and display it on WWE programming for the entire world to witness. These are the characters that the WWE audience falls in love with.

I can't wait to see it happen again.

 

[WunNightStan619]

Babyfaces are boo'd because they all suck nowadays in my opinion. They dont do anything cool that wud cause them to get cheered. the heels on the other hand are the talented onces for the most part. But watch Orton turn face a again and see how "good" he is. His best work is as a heel. Edge could easily be a cool good guy because he has the edgyness to his character. Look back on when he had he face run back in 2001-02. theres nothing edgy about john cena or HBK or rey mysterio. They are all goody-2shoes and its awful.

As far as HHH is conserned, he is the only face that is good at what he does. the only thing is that ppl are tired of seeing him always at the top constantly and they want to see something differnent than HHH and Cena constantly with the belts.

 

[RawIsRamsey]

The thing that I love the most about the business of professional wrestling is that no matter what Vince and company does to sway our ways of thinking, the voices of the collective audience will always be heard. Whether we bitch and moan on these IWC websites or go to the live shows and make some noise, WWE management can never hide it's audiences loud voice and opinions. And the more the WWE tries to make us like something, the more we come back and tell them that we hate it.

I agree with Captain America... the WWE always tries to dictate who their audience should and should not like. During the attitude era, the audience decided to rebel against WWE management by booing the living shit out of Rocky Maivia and "The Ringmaster" Steve Austin. Through the flames and burnt ash emerged "Stone Cold" Steve Austin and The Rock... two of the greatest, most liked, most criticised, most popular, and most mimicked superstars (by the audience) of all time.

I think we are going to witness a rebirth like this again. Whether it be John Cena, CM Punk, or Jeff Hardy, one of them is going to get sick of the fans, get the OK from WWE management and fire back. This will create what has been known as their true character "with the volume turned up". As we've seen in the past, the greatest gimmicks in pro-wrestling have used this formula. They find their TRUE selves and display it on WWE programming for the entire world to witness. These are the characters that the WWE audience falls in love with.

I can't wait to see it happen again.

*applauds* Can't agree more...I'm personally waiting for the CM Punk heel turn, cause even though he brings in the money with the kids, a heel punk would lock in the older fans.

And the current generation vs. the Attitude generation analogy is perfect...but where does that leave the old school NWA marks like myself? Confounded IWC!

 

[truk24]

The point of being heel is to become the "antagonists", and the face would take the role of "antagonists". I'm sure you already knew that, and I from what I have read you were heading a bit of another direction with your point, but I thought I would just add that bit of information.

Honestly, I would have to disagree here a bit with some of you on a few things. First, Orton is a classic heel, and the only thing keeping him from being the number heel in the business is the current lay out of his "character or gimmick". Orton is boring right now, and with this current gimmick shows flashes of super heel stardom everyone once in a "blue moon". Orton had a great character the first time he became champion, and somehow the WWE missed out on that classic gimmick, as it was just Orton being part of who he was with the extra on air persona added. Orton said himself that the WWE told him to go what with was more comfortable, and he said he chose to be himself with a little attitude, and arrogance added.


Jericho sucks as the current heel he is as well, and so does Edge. My problem Jericho heel persona right now is that they have made him out to be spiteful, and disrespectful. Jericho is a classic wrestler who has wrestled all over the world, and it doesn't seem like it fits his character. I like it when he played the old "heel" Jericho when he used to come out, and mock people. Jericho is usually better as a face when he acts "serious". Really I think Jericho is more of a tweener, but is much more entertaining over all as a "face". Jericho is the type of "face" that Smackdown needs who can deliver in big matches. Chris can also carry the mic as we have seen from this current storyline that he had.

Chris really needs more title runs as a "face" champion. I think he would make a credible face again, and gaining the fans respect again would be repsectable at this point. Look at how easy it was for him to turn the fans against him. Turning face may be a better move in the long run. Jericho is a solid wrestler, and I think he deserved more than that shitty storyline. I don't think he did a bad job working the storyline, but that could have been for someone else. If they had to have him heel that is fine, but Jericho should have worked a different heel program. I say feud him with Punk, and Punk makes him realize what kind of an ass he has been for a long time thus causing Jericho to turn "face".

Edge is a great star, and I like anything he does, but his storyline with Vickie sucked. Edge did a solid job selling the paranoid type. The gimmick he has now sucks mainly because he looks so weak throughout the script. Those two combinations just didn't go well for me. It would have been a ton better had Vickie not been involved. Again I think Edge is just better as a face, or as a heel who just dominates mentally, and doesn't coward away. Just like the "Cerebral Assassin" gimmick that Trips had years ago in his day as a top notch heel. Edge deserves more than some cowardly act. That belongs to someone like Orton, as he is less established than Edge.

The problem with the "heel" in the WWE is that fans tend to like them at some point. If a character plays a heel that can go over with the male audience 18-25 then you will get cheers instead of jeers in small doses. However the WWE lacks a true heel because they don't ever keep a star heel for very long. There is always that "face" turn. Remember guys like Rick Rude, or the Honky Tonk Man? Those were guys I don't think anyone would have cheered to often like they do today. Honestly I thought HHH was on that way until he turned face after his first major surgery in the WWE.

At the time he was a heel with Austin, then he came back as a face because the WWE wanted to build his return up which was obvious for marketing reasons, but they ruined possibly the greatest heels of all time. Had they just pushed the fact that he is married to Stephanie, and could care less about the fans when he returned as a face, the WWE could have had the best heel in the industry's history.

Man, I can' t even think of who they could do or start that with now. No one will ever have that opportunity ever again in the WWE. That is a damn shame, but in the end it makes sense.

 

[ThePeoplesChampion]

i like this thread.....i honestly think why people boo cena is well correction guys boo cena is cause we see he's being pushed down our thoarts and isnt the best wrestler...and we get a lil jealous when our girlfriends/wifes cheer him cause the want to bone him....HHH cause were bored of his character and everyone knows wats he's going to do next....a lot of the reason i think the Faces are booed is cause they are so predicatable....People cheer Jericho cause they respect him. and people cheer Edge and Orton cause they bring that unpredictable stuff....espcially edge...i think cena and punk needs to go heel for being booed...cena cause wwe is wanting him to be the rock why not try the rock approach....and punk needs a change i think could launch him into the likes of cena edge orton and main events....

 

[It's...Baylariat!]

Here's the thing with modern wrestling...it's more business than wrestling. The Attitude Era came about because Vince was desperate to bring something different to the masses. They had fresh characters for that time and said what was on everyone's mind. The characters such as Stone Cold, The Rock, and Mick Foley both RELATED to a certain demo.

Stone Cold related to the man who was sick of his boss and taking his shit.

The Rock related to the man who busted their ass and tried to take shortcuts to get to where they were at.

And Mankind related to the underdog who everyone told they wouldn't amount to anything.

The WWE right now has few clear cut face/heels. Orton's cheered because he's a bad ass and backs up what he says. Cena's booed because he shoved down our throats and people want to see him get beat once or twice. CM Punk gets a face pop because he's straight edge. Edge and Jericho get booed because they want to see someone kick their asses.

The WWE won't turn players like Cena and Punk heel because they sell too many items. Face it. People buy more face merchandise than heel merch. It's business and as smart and creative as it would be for Cena to just snap on the crowd, tell them to kiss his ass, go back to rhyming and thuggin' and buggin', it's not good business sense, which is what Vince is worried the most about.

 

[d_henderson1810]

Here's the thing with modern wrestling...it's more business than wrestling. The Attitude Era came about because Vince was desperate to bring something different to the masses. They had fresh characters for that time and said what was on everyone's mind. The characters such as Stone Cold, The Rock, and Mick Foley both RELATED to a certain demo.

Stone Cold related to the man who was sick of his boss and taking his shit.

The Rock related to the man who busted their ass and tried to take shortcuts to get to where they were at.

And Mankind related to the underdog who everyone told they wouldn't amount to anything.

The WWE right now has few clear cut face/heels. Orton's cheered because he's a bad ass and backs up what he says. Cena's booed because he shoved down our throats and people want to see him get beat once or twice. CM Punk gets a face pop because he's straight edge. Edge and Jericho get booed because they want to see someone kick their asses.

The WWE won't turn players like Cena and Punk heel because they sell too many items. Face it. People buy more face merchandise than heel merch. It's business and as smart and creative as it would be for Cena to just snap on the crowd, tell them to kiss his ass, go back to rhyming and thuggin' and buggin', it's not good business sense, which is what Vince is worried the most about.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

I dispute the "faces sell more merchandise" argument. Firstly, if faces ALWAYS outsold heels, then no-one would ever agree to go heel. Why would they, when they are making less money than Cena or Triple H?

Secondly, certain superstars would sell regardless. I'm sure that the Undertaker moved merchandise whether he was the heel he started as in WWE, or the face he is now. If the superstar is over, they will sell regardless. Your favourite superstar will most likely stay your favourite superstar whether face or heel, so you will buy his merchandise anyway.

Thirdly, the highest selling T-shirt in wrestling ever was not "Austin 3:16" or "Hulkamania!" but the "NWO" T-shirt. NWO were a heel faction, so why did they outsell all others. The reason is because they were "cool" heels. The same fans cheering heels will buy their merchandise, because they may consider Edge, Orton or Jericho cool. Cena doing his rap gimmick was considered "cool", so he may sell just as well.

Finally, if the WWE had good business sense, they would turn people like HBK or Cena heel, because it will create fresh programs and give them fresh opponents. This is always good for business, as it gives more variety, and stops the product getting stale from seeing the same people fight over and over, because they don't turn people.

Also, about not cheering "goody-two-shoes". Ricky "The Dragon" Steamboat, when he wrestled, was the ultimate babyface, and never turned. Yet he was cheered just as loudly at Wrestlemania, Raw and at Backlash, as he always was. So "goody-two-shoes" babyfaces, who produce great matches will always be over.

 

[Rusty]

Yes, it made me sad when Triple H was booed. I myself am not a fan of Triple H. Yes I was happy he lost the WWE Championship to Randy Orton, but booing the guy when he's meant to be "injured" and "concussed" is NOT cool. It made me lose a little respect for that crowd. Somebody tell me why it was appropiate to make ridiculous chants about how Triple H is now "gone" for a little while. Yes, I was secretly happy that he would be gone for a few months, but I wouldn't have joined in those chants and booed the guy.

Edge, Randy Orton and Chris Jericho are all amazing heels. I really feel sorry for them. They try their absolute best to be booed by the fans. When the fans cheer them, they don't like that. It means they are not doing their job properly. So if you really cared about a heel, you would help them out by giving them what they want, and they want to be booed out of the building. Orton was supposed to be absolutely booed at the end of the match at Backlash, but he wasn't. And it really ruined the moment for me. The guy that took out Triple H, his wife, his brother in law and his father in law, gets cheered over the superhero of the feud.

The best heel in the business today is Vickie Guerrero. And she has really learnt how to work a crowd. She knows what pisses them off and she plays on that. She is annoying, and people might say she sucks, but she is meant to be annoying. Her voice is just painful to listen to and she is the one heel that literally nobody likes. With that being said, heels and faces are important in wrestling and without them both, the business cannot survive.

 

[Slyfox696]

Were sick and tired of guys being shoved down our throats.

If this was true, why then do fans cheer Randy Orton or Edge? Has there EVER been a guy who has been "shoved down the throats" of the audience more than Edge? He's won 9 World Titles in 3 years, and hasn't left the main-event. Heck, I can't think of a feud he's had where it WASN'T the main-event, in some form or another.

It's not the "shoving down throats" argument, it's the "fans trying to be above the show" argument. People keep talking about "goody goody" faces...umm, so what? Is our society so morally decrepit that a guy who goes out, tries to please his fans and do the morally correct thing is now seen as wrong? What does that say about wrestling fans, and our society?

I think it's absolutely atrocious that fans feel this way. It's a shame that society seems to think that in order to be "cool" you have to do the wrong thing, you have to be a bad guy. How incredibly destructive is that?

I can understand a certain face not being interesting to you. But, you don't boo him, you just do nothing. I mean, Triple H is playing a character that has been severely injured. Did we cheer when Marlon Brando got shot in the Godfather? Did we cheer when Talia Shire went into a coma after giving birth in Rocky 2? Did we cheer when President Kennedy was assassinated? Of course not, so why do we cheer in wrestling when the heel commits a despicable deed and severely injures another man?

It's no wonder wrestlers have no respect for fans. I don't have much respect for them either.


The simple fact of the matter is that wrestling fans want to be "cool". They're terrified that their friends will think they are losers if they cheer certain people, because apparently liking the guy who does the right thing just isn't cool. Never was this more on display than the 2008 Royal Rumble, when John Cena returned. That crowd went APESHIT when they heard his music...just until they remembered they had to boo him so they could be cool. What a completely moronic thing to do. The fact of the matter is they WANTED to cheer him, but were afraid they wouldn't be coo. Quit trying to be above the show. Cheer for the good guys, boo the bad, or sit back in your chair and do nothing. But quit ruining the show for everyone else, and disrespecting those wrestlers who work hard to entertain you.

 

[Razor Blade Dream]

Punk being a heel would be amazing. But from a business standpoint it is a bad idea. WWE wants to shake that stink off of them from the Benoit tragedy and any negative aspect that comes from wrestling. Punk is what they want people to see, a guy that doesn't abuse drugs or anything (even though he drinks Pepsi and isn't caffeine sort of a drug?) and he is a positive role model for kids. If he were to have a heel run, it would be great for the older crowd but bad p.r. for the business. You can't have a guy preaching how much he is better than anyone because he is drug free, turn around and smack, say Jeff Hardy with a chair to prove his point further. Even though that would be a fuckin amazing feud, struggling recovering addict versus a guy that feels he is above anyone that abused their body. Maybe down the road if Jeff Hardy stays with the company. Right now though they need a positive role model for kids and they need to stick with it.

Back to the original point, ever since the Attitude era their will always be the "cheered heel" and right now that guy is mainly Orton, even though I hate to admit it. Edge and Jericho will bring the boo's, unless they are in Canada of course, but they are keeping the heel tactics in check. It seems that if they are cowards (Edge) or picking on people who really did nothing to them directly (Jericho's Legends feud) then their will always be a traditional heel around.

 

[BradTheGreat]

orton has said it himself that he hates being a face and would happily be a heel his whole career, and i agree with him, as a face he's alright, as a heel he's the future.

dude, when has Orton ever been an 'alright' face?
that week where Evolution turned on him? watch his title defence against Trips after that. Orton gets a weak ass cheer and Triple Nose gets a huge pop.
Orton is a dud as a face and NEEDS to stay heel. Much like Kennedy.

Kennedy was getting huge cheers before his 'official' Face turn but when he did turn, he changed completely and all the cheers died.
I think the Heel/Face transition should just kinda happen..
like when Big Show was against Mayweather at Mania... Show was getting cheered but they still pushed him as the Heel in that match, keep the character just book them against Heels.

^
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FACE HEAT AVOIDENCE STRATEGY

 

[andymcg]

Have to agree on whats being said alot, us fans get sick of having certain guys rammed down our throats and choose to boo them (mostly faces), and then we have people we think should be pushed differently that are heels and choose to cheer them.

Although ive always said this and i dont know if anyone agrees, but dont you think some heels that really are that good at playing the bad guy, get cheered somtimes out of respect ? Edge for example when he was at the 2008 Royal Rumble (I think, Cenas return ?). Thats always been my thoughts anyway.

 

[Captain America]

If this was true, why then do fans cheer Randy Orton or Edge? Has there EVER been a guy who has been "shoved down the throats" of the audience more than Edge? He's won 9 World Titles in 3 years, and hasn't left the main-event. Heck, I can't think of a feud he's had where it WASN'T the main-event, in some form or another.

That's true, but he isn't shoved down our throats as a good guy. The fans that like him, like him because of his edginess (no pun intended).

It's not the "shoving down throats" argument, it's the "fans trying to be above the show" argument. People keep talking about "goody goody" faces...umm, so what? Is our society so morally decrepit that a guy who goes out, tries to please his fans and do the morally correct thing is now seen as wrong? What does that say about wrestling fans, and our society?

Our society has always had a flair for the bad guy. Look at Billy the Kid, Bonnie and Clyde, John Dillenger. These are all people who have done some very bad things, yet they're still glorified in our society. This is pro wrestling, if we wanted to watch some cookie cutter good guys, we'd watch shows like 'Leave it to Beaver' (I'm not dissing LITB I actually love that show.) This is wrestling. This is supposed to be action packed. When it comes to action movies the Rated R movies are always better than the pg-13 ones.

We like our heros to have an edginess to them. ie. Clint Eastwood in Dirty Hairy. ie. Chuck Norris in the Hitman. ie. Arnold Schwarzenegger in Terminator 2.

I think it's absolutely atrocious that fans feel this way. It's a shame that society seems to think that in order to be "cool" you have to do the wrong thing, you have to be a bad guy. How incredibly destructive is that?

It's something that has always been apart of our culture. I honestly don't see much wrong with it. There's something that can be admired about a guy who's willing to do whatever it takes to get ahead, ie. Al Capone.

I can understand a certain face not being interesting to you. But, you don't boo him, you just do nothing. I mean, Triple H is playing a character that has been severely injured. Did we cheer when Marlon Brando got shot in the Godfather?

Your entire argument about how our society is fucked up for not going along with the cookie cutter good guy was just contradicted by bringing up Marlon Brando to try and prove a point for you. Marlon Brando in the Godfather wasn't a goody two shoes kind of guy. He was the leader of a ruthless criminal enterprise that murdered anyone who stood in their way.

The reasons that fans are starting to cheer for the heels over the faces a little bit lately is the same reason everyone likes Al Capone more than Eliot Ness, it's for the same reason that everyone cheered for Robert Deniro over Al Pacino in the movie heat. We want guys that have a swagger to them, guys that are true badasses. That's what's missing out of the faces. Take John Cena for instance. I'm not one to dis him. I actually think his wrestling skills aren't bad at all. I mean he may not tear the house down every night, but he certainly doesn't stink up the place either and he has had some very memorable matches over the years. I also won't dis his mic skills, because he's solid on the mic, but I think the reason some fans have trouble getting behind him is because he's too pg. It doesn't come off as authentic.

Now I know a lot of people will say that being pg isn't bad and I'll agree with them. I'd have no problem with one of the shows being pg or geared toward children. I honestly think it'd be great, but I just don't see why every show has to be this way. With the way the brands are distinct and separated it gives the WWE a chance to have every show be unique and offer something different to the fans. They have an opportunity to reach several types of pro wrestling fans. It doesn't make any sense for them to have every brand be basically a carbon copy of the other. I think one needs to be more hard hitting, more adult oriented, more RAW so to speak.

 

[Wrestlefan27]

Also, the reason we cheer when a wrestler is pretending to be injured is because we know that they're pretending.

I sure didn't cheer when Psycho Sid busted his ankle at In Your House, or whichever PPV it was. And when Taker dove on his head from inside the ring at Wrestlemania I was genuinely concerned.

I'm never happy when a wrestler is ACTUALLY injured, heel or face. I doubt if anyone thinks that Orton's punt is all that damaging.

But sometimes it's hard to tell when they're actually hurt. If people cheered when the Blue Blazer fell, THEN I'd be disgusted with them.

 

[Miko]

The John Cena argument dont work for me anymore, he's lost a shit load of times recently, he may not be the total badass but he's got an edge to him, take Smackdown for instance, he just put his hands behind his back and basically said to Edge "there, you go first" with a look on his face that literally said "and if you do, I'll kill you". Seriously he looked dangerous right then.

Anyway, still dont see what there is too like about Orton or Edge, one's an oversized lanky cheat and the others a boring unconvincing psychopath. If that's worth cheering then wrestlings gone downhill.