What's the actual reason WWE has become stale?

[Just Zay'n]

Ok, this could be controversial. But the whole point is to have a discussion and throw around ideas.

Could the problem be Vince, or the writers, or the 3 hour running time, or the PG rating? It's possible.

Have we stopped to consider that the wrestlers themselves could also be a problem? Let's face it, a lot of us fast-forward through several matches. Filler or not, regardless of where on the card the Superstars have been placed or the way they have been booked - the writers and/or Vince don't say "OK guys, I want you to go out there and give a very mediocre match, because this is just to hold us over until the main event". If a match is boring, it's because the two Superstars are giving a boring/mediocre performance. That seems fair enough, right?

One more thing - whose personality and charisma really stands out to you, and makes you want to tune in every week? Arguably, the only one with a lot of charisma right now is Ambrose. A chunk of the problem (not all of the problem, mind you), as far as I see, is a reliance too much on overly technical wrestling. Throughout the indies, you see all these guys pulling off all these amazing moves, and they are pretty spectacular to watch. But this isn't suited to WWE's style - why would guys spend heaps of time perfecting their corkscrew 450 splash, for example, when WWE won't in a million years let them use it (assuming they aim to make it to WWE)?

Why isn't there more of a reliance on developing huge levels of charisma and mic skills, and the ability to interact with the audience, rather than seeing how many complex moves you can pull off?

 

[laodaron]

The WWE has become stale to the people that have been watching since 1997. But that's because literally EVERYTHING becomes stale in 15-20 years. Add to that, 5 hours of content a week, as well as 3+ additional hours once a month, and you have a recipe for overexposure.

Another problem is the overstimulation of Indy fans. Indy fans will watch 5+ hours of complete life-threatening horseshit dangerous botchfests to catch a few spots and some blading. So, that becomes the norm for them. They begin to only accept a match if it has a scaffold, ladders, tables, chairs, thumbtacks, nails, barbed wire, light tubes, glass, fire, weed whacker, staple guns, all other various weapons, objects, plenty of wrestling violence, a reciprocating saw, barbwired steel chairs, nail bats, barbed wired bats, lighttube bats, barbwired tables, flaming tables, lighttube tables, barbed wired ladders, barbed wired glass, lighttube glass, beds of barbed wire, beds of lighttubes, beds of thumbtacks, doing 75 flips in a match, Jun Kasai slicing with a gusset plate board or Nick Mondo literally diving off of a building. It's torture porn garbage, and it should be illegal. Using it to compare to the current WWE product is disingenuous.

But, that's starting with the premise that it is actually stale. I argue that it isn't. I've been a steady fan since the 80s, and I love it as much today as I did then. Arguably, I took off during the dark years of shitfest wrestling (2002-2009) but maybe that break rejuvenated me.

 

[TheICChampion]

WWE is stale because it seems to be the same ol' sh*t every week almost, with very few exceptions. Filler matches no one really cares about, stupid stuff no one cares about, guys getting hot then losing then winning then losing, and so on. Then there's random stupid BS like a midget pinning Goldust, and R-Truth coming back (where the f*ck's he been lately anyway?) and having a "dance-off" in the middle of a "match" only to roll up Adam Rose in about 10 seconds. Rinse and repeat stuff like this every week, and even on PPV's. Hell, a freakin' WeeLC filler comedy match made it into the nominees for "Match of THE YEAR". Are they serious?

 

[Jack-Hammer]

It's probably a combination of things.

As I've said in some other threads, WWE tends to lose steam in the last 3 or 4 months out of the year. By that time, it's not uncommon for creative decisions to be made that just don't interest a lot of people, the fall TV season has begun, Monday Night Football returns from hiatus, plans are being made for the upcoming holiday season, just a general disinterest in what's happening overall, etc. It doesn't help that arguably the most popular wrestler to hit WWE in years, namely Daniel Bryan, has been on the shelf injured for the entire second half of 2012.

One thing that's also been more noticeable in the past several months is a definite uptick in the "sports entertainment" content of the show. The booking styles of Vince & Triple H are clearly different and you get the feeling that Vince has been more hands on the past few months than he has been in quite a while. Even though he ultimately makes the final creative decisions, I think he's left more of the final calls to Triple H quite a bit the past few years. I don't mind one or two "sports entertainment" segments, but there are way too many of them for my liking these days consisting of promo segments and/or filler matches.

 

[lil steroid meat]

First off, it's too much content. 5+ hours of content just from Raw/Smackdown plus they have the extra shows like Superstars and Main Event but stories don't really advance on those so we won't count em.

Raw should be two hours and Smackdown should be one hour. NXT needs to come on first on Thursday nights immediately followed by an hour of Smackdown.

Less is more.

Another thing is that the promos are scripted. If you give the guys a point to drive home, and let them go out there and choose how they want to verbally deliver it, not only does it give them a chance to dictate the direction of their character, it makes things more interesting on screen, and it's truly sink or swim based on your charisma.

Another thing is that they are afraid to have new guys in the top spot if they aren't hand picked by Vince (who has this weird homoerotic thing where he won't push someone unless they have a "look"). Since 2007, they've found excuses to not push guys like Kennedy, Kofi, MVP, etc. and if we want to take it closer to modern day, they squandered Cesaro's push for nothing, which is a shame because the crowd was organically behind him, which is how the biggest stars are created. They were gonna squander Daniel Bryan's momentum until the crowd decided Batista was a heel for simply winning the Rumble. They are STILL hesitant on pushing Ambrose even though he's the hottest face on the roster. After years of fans rooting for Ziggler, he's finally getting some shine, but even still, he's never gonna reach that main event level that a lot of fans would pay to see him at.

They find petty excuses to not push people and then get confused when there are no stars. There's no continuity in a superstar's level. One week Ryback is getting beat with Curtis Axel by Los Matadores and then he's en route to fight Triple H at Wrestlemania. They change their mind too much.

Vince thinks he's winning but really it's just that the fans have no alternative so he wins by default. Plus he's surrounded by yes men (and from what we know about WWE Backstage culture, that's the easiest way to preserve your job).

Also, there are too many cooks in the kitchen on the writing team. It's much easier for two or three writers to compromise and come up with a common vision than it is for 30 people.

Also you have a lot of people on the writing team that don't know fuck all about wrestling.

I could go on forever but yeah.

 

[Vader]

I can't say I know.

The Attitude era was entertaining because of the microphone work, controversial characters, and more mature storylines. The heat that they generated was great during this time, even if the in-ring matches left a little more to be demanded.

The Ruthless Agression era toned down the Attitude era slight, but the in-ring work was phenomenal. You had guys like Benoit, Angle, Lesnar, Guerrero, Mysterio, RVD that could put on great matches in addition to the mainstays from the Attitude era like HHH, Austin, and the Rock and appearances by Flair and Hogan. In addition you saw the rise of new talent like Cena and Orton.

Frankly, this PG era has very few positives. The most popular superstars as of late like Daniel Bryan and CM Punk aren't all that entertaining on the microphone, and lack athletic ability to make them the centerpiece of the company IMO.

 

[laodaron]

I can't say I know.

The Attitude era was entertaining because of the microphone work, controversial characters, and more mature storylines. The heat that they generated was great during this time, even if the in-ring matches left a little more to be demanded.

The Ruthless Agression era toned down the Attitude era slight, but the in-ring work was phenomenal. You had guys like Benoit, Angle, Lesnar, Guerrero, Mysterio, RVD that could put on great matches in addition to the mainstays from the Attitude era like HHH, Austin, and the Rock and appearances by Flair and Hogan. In addition you saw the rise of new talent like Cena and Orton.

Frankly, this PG era has very few positives. The most popular superstars as of late like Daniel Bryan and CM Punk aren't all that entertaining on the microphone, and lack athletic ability to make them the centerpiece of the company IMO.

I'm sorry, but WTF are you talking about? The AE was fine for what it was, it innovated. But the RA era was complete garbage. Terrible wrestling, terrible stories, and terrible wrestlers. There were a few decent in ring performers, but 2003-2009 is marked as EASILY the most unwatchable product by the WWE. This era is better both in ring and storyline wise, mostly than the AE and the RA. Nostalgia is a powerful drug, make sure not to overdose on it.

 

[SinCityBlitz]

Scripted interviews, the non existent brass ring that Vince mentioned and the glass ceiling that some can't bust through. I guess the brass ring and ceiling are the same.

Guys are held back while we get the same boring Cena every week. Somehow Vince thinks guys jobbing to Cena helps them while it really just kills any momentum that they have. Jobbing Wyatt killed everything they built for Wyatt.

How about having Lesnar end Taker's streak instead of using a young guy who could really use the push? How about putting the belt on a guy who doesn't defend it and that same guy is ready to jump ship? They are going to give the belt to Cena so they wasted the Taker rub.

How about bringing Charlotte up and jobbing her out in two minutes? One bad decision after another. That is why the product blows right now.

Frankly, this PG era has very few positives. The most popular superstars as of late like Daniel Bryan and CM Punk aren't all that entertaining on the microphone, and lack athletic ability to make them the centerpiece of the company IMO.

Punk was their best talker next to Triple H on the mic and Bryan is not athletic enough? Wat?

 

[laodaron]

Scripted interviews, the non existent brass ring that Vince mentioned and the glass ceiling that some can't bust through. I guess the brass ring and ceiling are the same.

Guys are held back while we get the same boring Cena every week. Somehow Vince thinks guys jobbing to Cena helps them while it really just kills any momentum that they have. Jobbing Wyatt killed everything they built for Wyatt.

How about having Lesnar end Taker's streak instead of using a young guy who could really use the push? How about putting the belt on a guy who doesn't defend it and that same guy is ready to jump ship? They are going to give the belt to Cena so they wasted the Taker rub.

How about bringing Charlotte up and jobbing her out in two minutes? One bad decision after another. That is why the product blows right now.


Punk was their best talker next to Triple H on the mic and Bryan is not athletic enough? Wat?

Have you ever considered that you're just too smart for the WWE? I mean, you literally do not like anything about the current product based on this post. I mean, it's either that, or you don't understand the first thing about pro-wrestling.

They have done EVERYTHING to take Cena off the top, to include having him out for months on end to get healthy. But, he returns, and the arenas EXPLODE. He's a bigger legend than most of the legends you can think of, and they'll even tell you that. Stone Cold LOVES Cena, even while understanding that the character is a little stale, but he understands that not a single person in the locker room works as hard as Cena. Shouldn't work ethic be rewarded?

Speaking of Bray Wyatt, if you've watched ANY match with him and listened to a single promo of his and think he's a main event star, then we're at an impasse. That dude is nothing but overrated, but I still hold out hope that he'll try and put ANY work into making it better.

So, when a bad guy does something especially heinous, that bad guy gets what they call "heat". Beating Taker at WM is something that rewarded probably more heat than any single 3 count pin in the last decade or more, and only one superstar had the strength to actually carry that much heat. There is no "young superstar" that could have shouldered that kind of heat, and assuming so indicates a basic lack of understanding. I may be in the minority, but I believe that 2014 for Brock Lesnar was probably the best booked year for any superstar in the modern era.

The Charlotte thing was perfectly done. She got a reward for her work in NXT by getting to job on the main roster. Natty needed a squash to prepare her for her title run.

And Punk was never a good talker. He cut one single worked shoot that was mediocre, and after that, he literally just repeated himself for months. He was a whiner, mostly. And Daniel Bryan chose a title over his own health, so, we'll probably never see him wrestle again because of it.

 

[Rane]

This is probably really cliche and I probably sound like one of those people who says the exact same shit over and over again. There is no consistency in what Vince and his creative team are putting out there. On RAW this week, instead of bringing some prestige back to the tag team division, they are having a pretty decent tag team in Star/Goldust job to Los Matodores.... Instead of getting a decent 5-10 minutes match with either Cesaro/Tyson Kidd against a face, we get Adam Rose screwing around with a Bunny and dancing with R-Truth. But I'm going off topic.

I've said this on another thread before, an interview Sam Roberts conducted on Triple H he was asked what he thought on people saying NXT was a better product than RAW/Smackdown. He said it's a lot easier to book a 1 hour show than a 3 hour one. His correct when says that, but it kind of sounds like he is making excuses for Vince. The main roster of today is by no means in same category of the Attitude Era or the Ruthless Aggression Era. But if a bunch of so called rookies on NXT can put on a hell of a show every week, then I'm sure the main roster is capable of more. It all in the ends comes down to the booking, which unfortunately has not being up to scratch for a long time.

I'm sorry, but WTF are you talking about? The AE was fine for what it was, it innovated. But the RA era was complete garbage. Terrible wrestling, terrible stories, and terrible wrestlers. There were a few decent in ring performers, but 2003-2009 is marked as EASILY the most unwatchable product by the WWE. This era is better both in ring and storyline wise, mostly than the AE and the RA. Nostalgia is a powerful drug, make sure not to overdose on it.

You're of course entitled to your opinion on how you feel about past eras in the WWE. Although in AE and the RA era you cannot argue that there wasn't consistent booking each and every week. Majority of the matches on a PPV card had some sort of build to it which you could understand why these superstars were feuding, regardless if they were "terrible". In this era lower/mid card stars are just thrown together in the ring and expected to be a filler on PPV card. On Austin's podcast Vince stated that this is sports entertainment, not wrestling. Well the AE and RA era was sports entertainment and todays era is mostly just wrestling with recycled stories which have no purpose.

 

[AttitudeChild]

The WWE has gotten stale because somewhere along the lines Vince McMahon forgot that Raw and SmackDown are TV SHOWS. People aren't watching with their full attention(or at all) because nothing is happening. They've become episodes with no plots! Let me explain.

Years ago Raw and SmackDown episodes used to have plots to them. Underlining stories that were told throughout the night backstage that built to the main event. Like the episode when Austin was hunting DX, or when the Ministry kidnapped Steph, or even when The Rock faced The Hurricane. They also would check in on the midcard stories in between to fill out the show. They gave you a REASON to watch all the way to the end. You didn't want to miss how this chapter in the story unfolded!

But now when you watch Raw or SmackDown you have to will yourself through an episode because NOTHING IS HAPPENING! It's just random matches that came out of nowhere that lead to nowhere with three 15-30min in ring promos in between. And it sucks because all of those backstage moments are the real CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT that superstars need. ex.) What do you remember more about the APA? Their matches, or the APA Protection skits? We already know these superstars in the ring but the stories and moments and backstage shenanigans are how we develop personal connection to them.

It's ironic that Vince says he's not in the wrestling business but the entertainment business because Raw is more of a wrestling show now than it's been in years. No more plot, no more story, just matches and promos. It actually feels like an Indie Show. The WWE isn't stale, it's just pointless. I wan't to watch, but I don't NEED to.

 

[BillAlfonsos_Whistle]

The WWE is stale because they refuse to allow RAW to be an organic show. The uber-scripted nature of it is sickening. It seems like a solid 4 months now that every single RAW has started out with a combo of HHH/Cena/Rollins cutting snooze fest promos that couldn't captivate a 7 year old.

 

[FromGlasgow]

I think the main reasons is the lack of competition and that the independants are basically non existant, There is very little places for wrestlers to go and make a name for themselves and develop their character and create their own style except for the WWE, Their being brought into development and trained by the same people even though they do have talented trainers it feels kind of like their being cookie cut to a WWE style they do have some exceptions that came through like CM Punk and Daniel Bryan for example that made a name for themselves before WWE but these seem rare now as most come relatively unheard of.
I used to look forward to a known wrestlers debut in the WWE when they came from the WCW, ECW, AWA or USWA for example which happened reguarly and instantly presented all these dream match senarios with the WWE roster at the time.
Apart from Sting I can't think of any WWE debut in the past 10 years I was overly excited about.

I also think the IWC can take some blame as well by the way their so overly critical of every single thing that goes on in wrestling and just puts a lot of negativity on it instead of just enjoying the shows and not criticing everything they see.

 

[BestWrestlingOpinions]

If we can give Vince a break, I will say that wrestling has been on TV for 20 years now. I mean national TV. Worldwide TV. People everywhere can see WWE, along with other smaller promotions. Every storyline has been done to death. Every possible scenario has been created and completed. Good guy vs bad guy. Good guy vs good guy. Bad vs bad. Good vs heel boss. Bad vs good boss. Everything. EVERYTHING has been done before. The only difference is the characters/wrestlers involved in each scenario and how their personality makes it slightly different.

Bryan vs Authority was done before with Austin vs Vince. Instead of having the bad ass Austin throwing middle finger, you had Bryan having arenas on the palm of his hands never backing or slowing down. I could go on.

Wrestling, or should I say sports entertainment, isn't cool anymore, because there is nothing new. And I say sports entertainment, because that is the WWE now. It isn't wrestling. You can watch an excellent wrestling show with NXT or NJPW. SE is just stale and boring at this day and age.


The Superstars themselves obviously want to put on the best match possible every single night, but this doesn't happen for a lot of reasons. First of all, Vince won't allow it. Giving great matches weekly on Raw on free TV would mean that there is no point to buy the PPVs, where the great matches should be happening. That's why they are special and I tend to agree with that tactic, both financially and creatively.
Then again, how good of a match can you put on when:
-You are given 5 minutes on average for most guys?
-You have to play into every little stupid thing you are told to further a storyline (bunnies, heel tactics etc)?
-You don't always match with your opponent anyway?

On top of that, if the characters aren't compelling and the storyline is just shit on by the creative, why should I as a fan invest in it and support it? Why should I care about Adam Rose? He can put on the MOTY, but if no one is around to watch it, does it really matter?

Great matches are not consisted of just good in-ring action. The build up to the match matters a lot, the crowd reacting, the psychology, the characters, everything. Rose isn't compelling, so he won't have any good matches.


Wrestlers, NOT ENTERTAINERS, work on their 450s and their standing moonsaults, because that's WRESTLING. When you are in a company like RoH, NJPW, PWS etc, that's what matters the most, because they are wrestling companies. WWE isn't. They are just soap operas with scenarios that are resolved with a fight in a ring. Most guys started out wanting to be in RoH, wanting to go to Japan. If it wasn't for the money in WWE, I assure you no one would consider going there. Check Punk, his life goal was ROH, because THAT is wrestling. Jericho wanted to go to Japan, that was his goal.


Look at how great reviews NXT Takeover got. Why is that? Simple. A great debut that turned into a great heel turn in the end, a great tag team match with the most compelling character at the moment in Finn Balor, an amazing Divas match and of course the masterpiece in the main event. Simple storylines; You are the champion and I want your title, so we fight and we put on a masterpiece, that involves crowd psychology, participation, but also involves 450s, moonsaults, surfboard clotheslines etc. Not the same thing over and over again just to have the "OMG KICKOUT" moment.

Also, a reason why Raw and SD are so uninteresting right now is because of the overexposure of every guy back there. You see Rollins on Raw, SD, Main Event, and PPVs. So many times. How much more creative can a single guy become to keep your interest? How many preaching can Bray do? They get stale at some point. See NXT. Most guys you see once every two weeks. You "beg" to see Tyler Breeze because you can only see him twice a month. You crave to see him and can't miss it because it's a rare opportunity of sorts. Same as Lesnar. Every appearance he makes is must-see, because it's rare.

I don't wanna see Cena, Bray, Dean, Seth 2 hours each every week. Raw can go back to two hours. Brand split can happen again. Cesaro, Kidd, Rose, Fandango and so many more talents can be used for the split to happen.

I have lost hope in WWE because these things ain't gonna change soon. Vince lost touch, that's why they lost my minimal money I would pay for a t-shirt maybe.

 

[Just Zay'n]

I think you just hit the nail on the head, there's no exclusivity. I actually really liked the brand split, because of the feeling that you're getting something on each show that you can't get on the other. And yeah, since the same superstars didn't appear every single week, you would watch in hope that you'd see your favorites that night.

Could this be part of the reason why NXT is so great, just the fact that all the characters are so new? You watch without knowing what to expect, because you've never seen these guys in action much before. Just another reason why the NXT guys need to be called up so bad.

 

[Navi]

It's stale because even with a great roster, talented wrestlers and a new crop getting ready to come up, nothing ever changes.

I have no idea who fault it is, but they keep relying on the same people to carry the titles and the company. Give us some fresh faces, give us something new to watch, switch it up once in awhile, surprise us, is it really so hard to do,

When I'm watching RAW and I see the same wrestlers in the same matches, week in and week out, it's like a stand up comedian telling the same joke over and over again. The first time it's funny, second time you'd get a smile after the third time, it's get the guy off the stage.

Story lines either go on too long, or are left incomplete, they love to change horses in the middle of the stream, and we're all going like WTF. The best example of that was the Ambrose/Rollins feud. I waited months for Ambrose to get his hands on Rollins and when he finally did, Wyatt interferes. Totally ruined it for me that they couldn't let it end cleanly.

I have a feeling it's going to be this way for quite some time, or as long as McMahon is in charge.

 

[Wyatt_Promo_God]

- John Cena and him always killing rising heels momentum (Barrett, Sandow, Bray, and now Rollins)

- WWE writers\creative and whoever's coming up with the lackluster angles.

- Rusev and Lana are very stale.

- Roman Reigns is getting pushed way too quickly and doesn't have enough skill at this point to reach expectations.

- No general manager and just stupid host like they did in 2011.

- Brock Lesnar as WWE Champion and never shows up.

 

[sanefan_har]

Well since many reasons have been highlighted, I'd like to focus on a few aspects Vince has apparently forgotten : How to build a top star, and how to stick to your word

1. How to Build a top star

Ever since the beginning of 2010, the popularity of wrestlers apart from John Cena, Edge, Orton has been floundering. From the unnecessary loss that Nexus endured, to the burial of Zack Ryder and so on, it was obvious Cena was the one they wanted to put their money on. And true to his nature, Cena did so. He stuck with the goody 2 shoes gimmick, and that made any storyline almost predictable. No one else could get the kind of treatment he did, and in the process they all became after thoughts.

In all this, the WWE forgot to build a third top face behind Orton and Cena. Sure you could make cases for The Shield, Punk and Daniel Bryan, but even they had a torrid time with their runs, Punk not main-eventing several PPVs despite being WWE champion was stupid, him losing to HHH at a major point in his Pipebomb run didn't make sense either. As for Daniel Bryan he was inserted in some silly feud like the one with Bray Wyatt, and the repetitive "B+ player" phrase got annoying. Even the PPVs he main evented (barring Mania) had cliched false finishes, forcing fans to demand refunds and what not. 2010 was the year they should have promoted faces like Morrison and Kingston, and they dropped the ball on them. They were doing well with Ryback, and then inserted him into a feud with Punk, when he clearly wasn't ready. Since then he endured a horrible PPV win record, even losing to Mark Henry at Mania.

Even if you ignore the above paragraph, the fact that WWE invested in the Rock and other Part timers instead of building up a new star showed how much they were willing to neglect the roster. Which brings me to

2.How to Stick to your word.

"If Cena loses, he's fired", "Once in a lifetime", "End of an Era"

Do you know what's common with these phrases? The fact that none of them ended up being true. Cena get's fired, he shows up on Raw the next day. A Once in a lifetime match occurs twice, and the end of an era featured 2 stars who wrestled the next 2 WrestleManias.

How are you supposed to take a corporation seriously, when all they do is lie to your face and pretend like the past never happened. Hell, many of the subscribers to the $9.99 Network have complained about the customer service being liars, one person going as far to say that the customer service agent was mean to him for no reason.


All this goes to show that Vince McMahon has something planned, and it's either rehashed or stupid. Neither of which are convincing reasons to watch the product.