Welcome to America, AKA Sideshow Central (Another Torgo Political thread)

[GI Cake]

So what if your religion doesn't like the idea of Adam putting it in Steve's butt? Feel free to follow your stupid, backwards religion till you drop dead. But if you're going to sit here and use bible verses to defend your views I got one of my own.

Best_Sports_Entertainer is a massive cunt ~ Pancake 1:69

 

[A11oftheLights]

The Bible is not outdated just because some people aren't obeying it.

1. You're acting as if it should be. Also, I believe God does allow divorce IF one person is being abused.

I think others have clearly shown that at the time of the bible being written that this is not true

2. Well, your body is the temple of God. They can somewhat hinder your message if you decide to witness to someone.

lol what

3. Although I'm not 100% sure on this one, I believe it was just God testing Israel's faith, and it was NOT supposed to carried out into the New Testament.

it is in there more than once

4. You're not supposed to engage in sexual activity before marriage.

Can you clarify what you mean by that please? Do you mean christians arent meant to or everybody?

5-7. Give some scripture.

I really dont want to sit here and bible bash but ok

Pro Slavery
However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

could keep going
Rape
If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.(Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)

They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera's spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil. (Judges 5:30 NAB)

could keep going

Murder
Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)

All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

could go on for a long long time

 

[One Punch Doug Crashin]

The Bible is not outdated just because some people aren't obeying it.

Sorry but the Bible IS an outdated piece of paper. If you wanna believe in something that was written in the 1500's to control the people the Vatican had under them, be my guest. Same thing goes with the Jewish religion that I'm a part of. All the Bible is, is control. Control of your life. How to think. How to act. I personally used to believe in the bible but in this day and age where technology can bring people closer than ever before, there's no room for outdated pieces of paper like the bible. If you wanna believe in it, fine. You have the first amendment to do so. You CAN believe in a higher power WITHOUT someone else telling you that you must do so or you're going to hell.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

I'm not trying to undermine the issue by saying that it may just be a phase in some cases, but it stands to reason that it is a phase in some of these kid's cases. If you're not capable of consenting to sex, I really don't think you're capable of making these kind of decisions.

I have to agree with this, and what I was going to originally say before we had to go using BSE as a tetherball again.


Nothing drastic or permanent should be decided upon any person that young, and I have trouble with the concept of a child deciding he or she is "gay" before puberty. Gender confusion is fairly common in children, as pre-pubescent children are a bit adrogynous by nature.


You can allow the child to dress and identify however they feel right, but anything permanent should be waited on until adulthood, or until a very large sample size is available (ten years, some such)


Especially since, as our nation and society becomes more comfortable with homosexuality and transgender, it could indeed become somewhat of a phase or fad for many young people (im thinking early pre teen - early teen, your usual 'do something against the grain for attention' years)

 

[Shocky]

Can everyone stop using Old Testament verses to defend/attack Christianity? I don't have a dog in this fight, but if one doesn't understand the two different books, perhaps one should not comment. And to say a book is out dated is silly. People arguing against religion simply can't grasp the power of Faith.

 

[It's Damn Real!]

Can everyone stop using Old Testament verses to defend/attack Christianity? I don't have a dog in this fight, but if one doesn't understand the two different books, perhaps one should not comment. And to say a book is out dated is silly. People arguing against religion simply can't grasp the power of Faith.

When Christianity stops using the Old Testament as a foundation, yes.

Until then, it matters. It's taken into account in the religion, and the assertion that the New Testament wipes away the "sins" of the Old is awfully convenient since it's only ever used to explain why the religion supports awful moral precepts.

You're right about the "power of Faith" thing, though. Because Faith is the excuse people give for not having a good reason to believe in something. Besides, how do you go about showing that faith is a good thing without evidence?

 

[A11oftheLights]

Can everyone stop using Old Testament verses to defend/attack Christianity? I don't have a dog in this fight, but if one doesn't understand the two different books, perhaps one should not comment. And to say a book is out dated is silly. People arguing against religion simply can't grasp the power of Faith.

Why? The old testament is part of the bible, sure its actually jewish but its what Jesus believed in.

I'm not arguing against religion existing i'm arguing against it being used to create laws and prevent changes to laws in a modern society that has evolved. The power of faith is scary. You only have to look at extremist groups like the KKK, Al-qaeda, Islamic State,etc. to see that. My religion teacher once defined faith as the belief in something that cant be proven, another reason why the power of faith can be a danger when used the wrong way.

 

[Shocky]

When Christianity stops using the Old Testament as a foundation, yes.

Until then, it matters. It's taken into account in the religion, and the assertion that the New Testament wipes away the "sins" of the Old is awfully convenient since it's only ever used to explain why the religion supports awful moral precepts.

You're right about the "power of Faith" thing, though. Because Faith is the excuse people give for not having a good reason to believe in something. Besides, how do you go about showing that faith is a good thing without evidence?

It's not an issue of convenience, it's an entirely new religion. It wipes everything away because it is the Christian Faith, and not Judaism anymore. It's actually incredibly simple.

Jesus came to earth, and God used him. It was a sign that God had changed from a very wrathful, jealous being, to a loving, benevolent God. The Old Testament provides the backdrop. Only hardcore branches of Christianity are literal interpretationist, and those people you don't want to argue with.

And if you really need examples to someone to show examples of why faith is good, then that's a sad life you live. Most churches give back to the communities in many ways, whether good or shelter. It's only modern progressives that have decided to be offended by people trying to preach their religion in return.

 

[A11oftheLights]

For someone without a dog in the fight, you are heavily defending the religion side of the argument.

You cant include the old testament in the book and then say it cant be used to interpet Christian messages, especially when Jesus was preaching it. There will be people who use the message from the Old Testament in their faith and it will be used by both sides of the fence to prove a point.

 

[Shocky]

For someone without a dog in the fight, you are heavily defending the religion side of the argument.

You cant include the old testament in the book and then say it cant be used to interpet Christian messages, especially when Jesus was preaching it. There will be people who use the message from the Old Testament in their faith and it will be used by both sides of the fence to prove a point.

It shows that God has changed his approach. It provides a history of the way things were, Jesus teaches the way things will be going forward, thus making the lessons of the Old Testament mute. Hence why I said, using the Old Testament to defend/attack Christianity is silly, considering all of Jesus's teachings are In the New Testament. Many people try to cite Levitical Law in arguments, when Levitical Law is essentially not a Christian viewpoint.

If people want to use the OT in arguements, that's great. Keep in mind, that God was a vengeful God that nearly wiped out the Human race, turned people into salt, burned cities, had Angels kill legions of men, and damned humanly for seeking knowledge, so I'm sure he doesn't care about our modern sensibilities.

 

[A11oftheLights]

God was a vengeful God that nearly wiped out the Human race, turned people into salt, burned cities, had Angels kill legions of men, and damned humanly for seeking knowledge, so I'm sure he doesn't care about our modern sensibilities.

So...
1) why do people want to worship a God that nearly murdered everyone
and
2) If God does not care for our modern sensibilities why do people use the Bible as a yes/no monitor of what is acceptable.

Side point, the bible has been revised or had sections that whoever decided to put it together chose not to include to make Jesus seem better than what he really was (his alleged marriage to a prostitute and children) and some other things I cant recall off the top of my head (its been 2 years since I study any kind of religous class, 4 or 5 since it was proper religious study)

 

[George Steele's Barber]

If people want to use the OT in arguements, that's great. Keep in mind, that God was a vengeful God that nearly wiped out the Human race, turned people into salt, burned cities, had Angels kill legions of men, and damned humanly for seeking knowledge, so I'm sure he doesn't care about our modern sensibilities.

Are you talking about God or the latest incarnation of Brock Lesnar?

I'm not one to quote the new or old testament. But it doesn't change the fact that the biggest backlash against providing gays and transgender rights and dignity comes from conservatives, old people, the church, and conservative old people that go to church. If not their religious text, where is the hatred, shunning, and general discomfort coming from?

 

[Shocky]

Are you talking about God or the latest incarnation of Brock Lesnar?

I'm not one to quote the new or old testament. But it doesn't change the fact that the biggest backlash against providing gays and transgender rights and dignity comes from conservatives, old people, the church, and conservative old people that go to church. If not their religious text, where is the hatred, shunning, and general discomfort coming from?

People fearing what they don't understand. Eastern societies and their social taboos are a huge unknown to me, so I'm not sure if there is a stigma attached to homosexuality. If there isn't, then you can point towards a problem with the west and the Abrahamic religions (and many denominations of Christianity are pro-homosexuality. Like any text, so much is up for interpretation).

Modern man has become more tolerant of homosexuality, simply because we are beginning to understand. We don't know what causes it, but we know it is something one is born with. As time goes on, we'll learn more, and social norms will change.

The old people thing is simply a generational thing. Most older folks believe it's a choice, and one can simply shock therapy one straight. You're going to have a hard time changing their minds, simply because that is the world they know. In 50 years we'll be the old men and our grand children will look at our world views as archaic and irrelevant.

 

[Shocky]

So...
1) why do people want to worship a God that nearly murdered everyone
and
2) If God does not care for our modern sensibilities why do people use the Bible as a yes/no monitor of what is acceptable.

Side point, the bible has been revised or had sections that whoever decided to put it together chose not to include to make Jesus seem better than what he really was (his alleged marriage to a prostitute and children) and some other things I cant recall off the top of my head (its been 2 years since I study any kind of religous class, 4 or 5 since it was proper religious study)

1. Like any good reason why one would worship a higher power, one does not want to incur the wrath of a vengeful God. You do your best to follow his laws, so his vengeance does not find you.

2. God sent Jesus to show us the way, and He becomes more benign. Granted I'm not huge into theology, but Jesus was sent to show God in a new light. Others can go into better detail as to how this works.

3. The revisions of the Bible are up for debate. Some folks choose to follow a particular version. Those with Faith believe that the men that wrote the Bible were chosen by God, and therefore the writing in infallible. The translations are also done with god's blessing, and God would not allow his word to be tarnished. It's an arguements you can't win, because you can't argue with Faith. Believe me, I've tried, but people with strong devotion will not let you change their world view. I don't agree with it, but I understand it.

 

[A11oftheLights]

1. Like any good reason why one would worship a higher power, one does not want to incur the wrath of a vengeful God. You do your best to follow his laws, so his vengeance does not find you.

2. God sent Jesus to show us the way, and He becomes more benign. Granted I'm not huge into theology, but Jesus was sent to show God in a new light. Others can go into better detail as to how this works.

3. The revisions of the Bible are up for debate. Some folks choose to follow a particular version. Those with Faith believe that the men that wrote the Bible were chosen by God, and therefore the writing in infallible. The translations are also done with god's blessing, and God would not allow his word to be tarnished. It's an arguements you can't win, because you can't argue with Faith. Believe me, I've tried, but people with strong devotion will not let you change their world view. I don't agree with it, but I understand it.

Okay I see where you coming from now. I thought you were saying faith is this brilliant thing and arguing against it is wrong.

 

[M]

No, people choose their sexuality. Show me proof they don't.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=scientific+proof+of+biological+homosexuality

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

It's an area of study that's been gaining a lot of steam lately. Currently, what I'm interpreting as the actual way shit works based off of lots of different studies is that sexuality and gender identity sort of comes from a funky mix of genes with influencing environmental factors in extremely early life. I also think that'll swing massively towards the biological side when it finally becomes fully acceptable for anyone to come out as what they are in the LGBTI spectrum - surprise surprise there aren't as many gay people in places where they'd feel threatened for being gay, who knew?

The idea that everyone is born straight and chooses to differ from that has less grounds of belief than the idea that we're all born neutral to everything and straight people are only straight because the opposite sex is different which makes them curious.

EDIT: For the love of god when you look up articles for anything, make sure you use what's most up to date. If I wanted to use a 2013 study to prove my point when there's 500 studies after that date that prove otherwise, I might be a little silly.

 

[It's Damn Real!]

It's not an issue of convenience, it's an entirely new religion. It wipes everything away because it is the Christian Faith, and not Judaism anymore. It's actually incredibly simple.

Jesus came to earth, and God used him. It was a sign that God had changed from a very wrathful, jealous being, to a loving, benevolent God. The Old Testament provides the backdrop. Only hardcore branches of Christianity are literal interpretationist, and those people you don't want to argue with.

And if you really need examples to someone to show examples of why faith is good, then that's a sad life you live. Most churches give back to the communities in many ways, whether good or shelter. It's only modern progressives that have decided to be offended by people trying to preach their religion in return.

Hey look, another awfully convenient side-step of otherwise having to own up to harboring awful beliefs.

I need examples and evidence for anything anyone claims that isn't easy to believe. If you tell me "I once met a guy at a party who is cousins with Corey Haim", the impact of that story is minimal, if not lacking in value entirely, so I'm likely to simply believe you because there's no real reason not to. The same as if you told me "My favorite color is blue", or "I believe Donald Trump to be a mean person". If you tell me "I once met Jesus", the opposite is true. I'm going to be extremely skeptical of your claim, and I'm going to demand and exorbitant amount of evidence to prove to me that (a) Jesus exists in the first place, (b) that the man you met was in fact this same Jesus and (c) that you in fact met him.

But the reason I specifically mentioned evidence of faith being a good thing is to illustrate how it is not in and of itself a good thing. Your example of the church giving back to communities does not require faith. There are utterly secular movements all over the world that do the exact same thing irrespective of the faith you are talking about, and with regard to the examples I asked for, the other reason I did so is so that you'd be forced to justify yourself to a response like you just gave. That is to say, why is "faith" required to do these good deeds? Can't I do them without it? Why is faith the only avenue that provides this? And are you only doing this because you have faith you'll be rewarded in your next life for doing so? In which case, can it really even be called charity? Smells more like self-serving to me.

 

[One Punch Doug Crashin]

It's people like BSE that make me livid. Questioning ANYONE's faith is beyond stupid and shows the lack of understanding one needs to deal with life. I feel sorry for anyone reading BSE's posts. You have the right to believe anything you wish. YOU do not have the right to condemn them for doing so.

 

[It's Damn Real!]

It's people like BSE that make me livid. Questioning ANYONE's faith is beyond stupid and shows the lack of understanding one needs to deal with life. I feel sorry for anyone reading BSE's posts. You have the right to believe anything you wish. YOU do not have the right to condemn them for doing so.

Questioning anyone's faith isn't stupid. It's the opposite of stupid. Having faith is just another way of saying "I believe in this despite not having a good reason to". You can have faith that gravity doesn't exist, even though you'd be a moron to test that theory from the top of a tall building, for example.

If anything, questioning faith is a good thing. Even for those with faith. It will either show you the error in your thinking or strengthen your resolve as a believer by forcing yourself to think rationally about the things you believe. To actually justify them with evidence. With reason. Instead of just relying on "faith". Even if you come back to the same beliefs themselves. "Because I have a faith" is literally the worst answer you could give as to why you believe in something. It's a way of completely side-stepping the responsibility you have as an individual in owning your own opinion.

You're right about this, though — you do have the right to believe anything you want. Just as I have the right to think you're an idiot for believing it when the logic you provide when asked "why?" is "because I have faith".

 

[Loveless]

Getting away from the god stuff, because it's fucking boring...

No, people choose their sexuality. Show me proof they don't.

That sounds to me like you're saying we're all bisexual by default until we make a choice, which I find very progressive of you.
I'd like your personal experience of this. When did you look around you and say "Well I like boobs, but I also like cock equally as much." and what helped you choose?

 

[Xemmy]

God, I've been on Tumblr so long, I forgot that Wrestlezone still had threads like these.

I'm going to cover the original post a bit and the whole child trans-gender thing, because it's just too much work reading through what the new argument is about. I'm going to do it by telling a little story.

A couple of years ago, I made this argument. I've always considered myself pretty hippie liberal, and that included with transgender people. One day, I come across a story about a young child that changed their gender in Europe, and I was shocked by it. I'd always approved of people that wanted to change their sex, but thought that below the age of 10 was just too fucking young to make that kind of life altering decision. I got into an argument about it with a really headstrong girl that didn't bother explaining WHY it was okay, but rather just kept insisting that it was not my decision and therefore I had no business to talk about it. Which is a silly argument. We don't let kids vote. We don't let kids smoke. We don't let kids drink. Because they're kids.

It wasn't until someone presented me with actual arguments a year later that it made more sense. The early you start the process, the smoother the transition goes. And while a little shallow and vain sounding- it ends up just looking better and natural when it's done early. And that is the fear with many trans-gender teens without supporting parents that have to wait until they're 18 before they can make that change. That no matter what they do, they'll always look "wrong".

More importantly, there are a lot of psychological signs that point to whether or not a child could be transgender- and it starts very young. Keep in mind that children do not have the same societal values and influences that we do. 18 year old's lie to feel cool or "in the crowd", 4 year old's do not. A whole litany of issues will spring up. Dissatisfaction with their genitals, peeing standing up or sitting down mimicking the opposite sex. Going out of their way to look like the opposite sex, and taking up the role during imaginary play. Depression at an early age. A girl only wanting to play with boys and vice-versa.

The fact is, the child doesn't magically decide and then the parents run and get them surgery and hormone treatments. They do trial runs. New name, new clothes, new look. They change genders before any of the major permanent life altering stuff happens. If it sticks, and the child is happier with it, then they seek professional help. Double check. Triple check. It's a process.

And that's why it's okay if a 9 year old changes genders. Because if it's real and it's done right, it's the absolutely best thing you can do for them.