Welcome to America, AKA Sideshow Central (Another Torgo Political thread)

[George Steele's Barber]

This is messed up to be honest. The kid's just 9 years old, I'm not sure the parents should let him decide he wants to be a boy at that age.

I'm sure the parents are not sure either but I'm also sure they put a lot of more thought and research in to the topic than you.

Just let him be a tomboy and dress in boys clothing and do boy stuff till puberty.

Seems to be what they have been doing and it is not good enough. The child does not feel right about that. They are trying something new that they can always go back on if it doesn't work.

Can't there be a bargaining system between the child and parents to accept being a girl before his body changes during puberty?

Please elaborate.

What if the kid has a fear of surgery down the line to become a man physically?

Then he will not have surgery.

And is he going to accept being graded as a girl for physical education classes since that is determined by the physical body of the kid?

Fuck mental health, ignore statistics about gender issues and suicide. PE grades are what is most important.

You trolling?

It is just awkward all around to go this route so early imo.

It is. It is not normal. It is hard to understand. Difficult to identify with. There is not education on the topic in typical schooling. And that is my point, I'm not going to question this decision because I am not an expert on the kid or the topic. All there is to do is either support or ignore it. Otherwise you are just coming off as bigoted against people with gender issues. Maybe you're not bigoted, maybe you are. The point being, do you really think you know better than the individual, the parents, and whatever professional expert support they are getting?

 

[Alastor]

I'm sure the parents are not sure either but I'm also sure they put a lot of more thought and research in to the topic than you.

I'm not doubting that. But I feel this is too important a decision for a 9 year old to make. I feel like this could be another example of overanalyzing an issue by American healthcare, much like the overdiagnosis of ADHD.

Seems to be what they have been doing and it is not good enough. The child does not feel right about that. They are trying something new that they can always go back on if it doesn't work.

Except I doubt it is easy to go back on the decision. It is highly confusing for everyone around the kid. Especially for the peers of the kid.

Please elaborate.

Puberty will create changes to the body. Don't be so hasty to decide you are a boy etc. Just like you, I'm no expert but pretty sure puberty could have a huge impact on the kid's feeling.

Then he will not have surgery.

Fair enough. But he would still be a female trapped in a man's body. Again I'm no expert but I feel that could create some issues.

Fuck mental health, ignore statistics about gender issues and suicide. PE grades are what is most important.

You trolling?

Because those classes and tests are based on the gender of the kids. During his lessons does he join the boys or the girls? Would he feel out of place taking the test meant for a girl? Get confused or feel pressured to conform? Would he force the school to grade him as a boy? Not trolling, just one of the things the kid will have to face.

It is. It is not normal. It is hard to understand. Difficult to identify with. There is not education on the topic in typical schooling. And that is my point, I'm not going to question this decision because I am not an expert on the kid or the topic. All there is to do is either support or ignore it. Otherwise you are just coming off as bigoted against people with gender issues. Maybe you're not bigoted, maybe you are. The point being, do you really think you know better than the individual, the parents, and whatever professional expert support they are getting?

I'm just saying they need to proceed with caution, and in the article the parent were clearly dreading what will happen when the boy reaches puberty and if he has a change of mind. My thinking is they could have delayed the decision till puberty but like you said, we are no experts.

I don't see how I can only either support or ignore it or it is bigoted to question the wisdom of making this decision.

 

[A11oftheLights]

Look this is a massive grey area. Nine years old seems to be a tad young to be making such a decision but hey whatever go ahead.

My personal belief is that if you have a penis you are a male and a female if you have a vagina and until you get surgery that changes that then you are what you are.

Half serious question though, if you're going to let everyone pick and choose what they are despite their body posessing reproductive organs that says otherwise what stops me from saying I am a horse or a mutant X-Men?

I cant believe i'm going to say this but this is getting out of control, it almost justifies the ignorant comments about gay marriage leading to all kinds of chaos. Thats how stupid this issue is, its making me see sense of some of the dumbest arguments I have ever seen

 

[Akhilleus]

Look this is a massive grey area. Nine years old seems to be a tad young to be making such a decision but hey whatever go ahead.

My personal belief is that if you have a penis you are a male and a female if you have a vagina and until you get surgery that changes that then you are what you are.

Half serious question though, if you're going to let everyone pick and choose what they are despite their body posessing reproductive organs that says otherwise what stops me from saying I am a horse or a mutant X-Men?

I cant believe i'm going to say this but this is getting out of control, it almost justifies the ignorant comments about gay marriage leading to all kinds of chaos. Thats how stupid this issue is, its making me see sense of some of the dumbest arguments I have ever seen

I've never seen "Horse" or "Mutant X-Men" on any legal documents where you state your gender. Probably because it isn't humanly possible to naturally be either of those things. However it is scientifically proven that people are born with the wrong body parts. Sometimes they have the body parts of both genders. If those with a penis are men, and those with a vagina are women, what would you call one of those people in the reported cases of being born with both reproductive organs? Because I would really like to know. Like you said in the first line of your post it is a very grey area, so I don't understand you following that with very black and white logic.

However you are right, this is getting out of control. Like I said before, why do you care what this child and it's family do? How does that impact you and your life? How does two human beings of the same gender getting married impact your life? Or what religion another person is? You have your life, you can control it however you wish...but when people think it's their right to control the lives of others, that's where lines are crossed and that's one of the biggest problems with today's society.

 

[A11oftheLights]

I've never seen "Horse" or "Mutant X-Men" on any legal documents where you state your gender.

Thats just because they are discriminating against mutants.

If those with a penis are men, and those with a vagina are women, what would you call one of those people in the reported cases of being born with both reproductive organs? Because I would really like to know. Like you said in the first line of your post it is a very grey area, so I don't understand you following that with very black and white logic.

hermaphrodite

However you are right, this is getting out of control. Like I said before, why do you care what this child and it's family do? How does that impact you and your life? How does two human beings of the same gender getting married impact your life? Or what religion another person is? You have your life, you can control it however you wish...but when people think it's their right to control the lives of others, that's where lines are crossed and that's one of the biggest problems with today's society.

I dont care what people do with their lives as long as it isnt shoved down my throat or they deliberately act a different way. Like when gay people go from acting completely different when they have come out. That is why attitudes change towards people. However, while I dont care what people do with their lives it is human nature to have an opinion and judge them (though unlike Torgo I do not openly shit on them by expressing it in an arrogant and ignorant manner)

On this instance of the 9 year old girl, it is very possible that with all the media attention this subject gets (Caitlyn Jenner,etc.) that she has been influenced by all this. Maybe she hasnt but I wouldnt be suprised if there are children out there that have been. Also at 9 years old, is a child mature enough to understand the consequences of this decision and what it actually means?

 

[Akhilleus]

You raise logical points in a debate that has thus far not had many other logical points from the other side, so I have to respect that.

I definitely agree with it being shoved down our throats. I am completely for people being able to do what they want with their bodies, but I was absolutely disgusted by the Bruce Jenner stuff. Not because he was a man turned female, but just the coverage that story had gotten, and the motives of those involved. It got way more coverage than it needed to, that's for sure. It's gotten more coverage than the fact that Jenner killed at person, most likely because of negligence.

As far as the 9 year old goes, like it's been covered in this thread many times, there is no question that the kid has been through psychologists and doctors and counselors to help them find if this is really the right decision. The child's parents I'm sure are treading very carefully. If this kid has been saying they are a boy trapped in a girl's body since they could talk, then they probably know. It happens, doctors know it happens, that's why they are going through with the change. The adults in that child's life have and probably will be treading very carefully with the kid. But ultimately they want to do what's going to make him live a very happy life.

 

[Sexcellence of Sexecution]

YOU ARE WHO YOU ARE BORN AS. BLACK, WHITE, BOY, GIRL, WITH ARMS OR NOT. You were made that way for a reason, and wanting to change it is complete insanity.

I am a heterosexual male. Please explain to me the reason why.

 

[BestSportsEntertainer]

I am a heterosexual male. Please explain to me the reason why.

Because you were made that way.

 

[Rayne]

Because you were made that way.

The reason why you were made that way is because you were made that way? That's some pretty concise circular logic there.

 

[BestSportsEntertainer]

People choose their sexuality.

As for race and gender, you were made that way - by God - who has a perfect will for your life.

If you don't believe in God and Christianity, then let's just drop this right now before it turns into a huge argument that doesn't accomplish anything.

 

[Барбоса]

People choose their sexuality.

As for race and gender, you were made that way - by God - who has a perfect will for your life.

If you don't believe in God and Christianity, then let's just drop this right now before it turns into a huge argument that doesn't accomplish anything.

So we should stop because you don't want blinkered beliefs based on your faith criticised?

Absolutely not.

People do not choose their sexuality. That is chosen for them by their genes.

 

[Con T.]

People choose their sexuality.

As for race and gender, you were made that way - by God - who has a perfect will for your life.

If you don't believe in God and Christianity, then let's just drop this right now before it turns into a huge argument that doesn't accomplish anything.

Says he wants to agree to disagree, and that he's done posting in the thread

Posts in the thread a week later.

In theory, it is very much possible to believe in God, and still believe in the concept of transgender. This doesn't have to be mutually exclusive.

Again, for someone who just wants to share his opinion and be done, you seem to keep on coming back.

 

[It's Damn Real!]

Sex and gender are not the same thing. Sex is what you are born — male or female. Gender is what you identify as — traditionally thought of as "masculine" or "feminine". That definition has effectively expanded to trump your sex at birth. Meaning, if you wish to identify as a female despite actually having male genitals, that's OK. Prior to the civil rights progress made in the last number of years here, you'd simply be known as a "feminine" male. That's changed, and you'd be wise to change with it. History isn't kind to those on the wrong side of civil rights. That's why George Wallace doesn't have his face on a stamp and Martin Luther King Jr. does.

A tolerant society — that is a society not adhering to archaic religious rhetoric — would happily oblige these types of requests.

 

[BestSportsEntertainer]

People do not choose their sexuality. That is chosen for them by their genes.

No, people choose their sexuality. Show me proof they don't.

 

[BestSportsEntertainer]

Sex and gender are not the same thing. Sex is what you are born — male or female. Gender is what you identify as — traditionally thought of as "masculine" or "feminine". That definition has effectively expanded to trump your sex at birth. Meaning, if you wish to identify as a female despite actually having male genitals, that's OK. Prior to the civil rights progress made in the last number of years here, you'd simply be known as a "feminine" male. That's changed, and you'd be wise to change with it. History isn't kind to those on the wrong side of civil rights. That's why George Wallace doesn't have his face on a stamp and Martin Luther King Jr. does.

A tolerant society — that is a society not adhering to archaic religious rhetoric — would happily oblige these types of requests.

Oh for the love of God, you're either a girl or a boy. This is basic as it gets.

 

[BestSportsEntertainer]

That's why George Wallace doesn't have his face on a stamp and Martin Luther King Jr. does.

What does Martin Luther King have to do with this?

 

[Thriller Ant]

No, people choose their sexuality. Show me proof they don't.

You are the one making the claim that is off from the common line of thinking, so the burden of proof lies on you. I'll make it easier for you. When did you choose to be straight?

 

[BestSportsEntertainer]

You are the one making the claim that is off from the common line of thinking, so the burden of proof lies on you. I'll make it easier for you. When did you choose to be straight?

I was always straight. People are born straight.

 

[Spidey Revivey]

I was always straight. People are born straight.

Except when they're born with opposing genitalia, or none at all. What are they then? God's little mistakes?

Like I said pages ago, circumsicion is okay, as long as the whole dick doesn't come off I guess.

 

[Thriller Ant]

I was always straight. People are born straight.

But you said people choose their sexuality, which means that people aren't born straight, they choose to be at some point in their life. So, again, when did you choose to be straight?

 

[Rayne]

As for race and gender, you were made that way - by God - who has a perfect will for your life.

If you don't believe in God and Christianity, then let's just drop this right now before it turns into a huge argument that doesn't accomplish anything.

OK, I've seen you use this out a few times now, so apparently some instruction on how discussion on message boards works is in order.

No one is going to stop you from having your opinion, and no one can force you to change it. You are entitled to your beliefs, no matter what other people might think of them. You are entitled to post your opinions here (within the limits of the board rules, which are fairly lenient in this area) and then walk away from the discussion.

What isn't allowed is walking into a discussion, stating your opinion, and then continuing in that discussion while refusing to listen to the opinions of other people. This tells everyone that you have no interest in the discussion taking place and are only here to shout your opinions at other people, and no one wants to deal with that shit. Why would anyone care about your opinion while you're making it clear that you don't care about theirs?

If you are looking for a place where you can shout said opinions and only engage with people who already share your opinion, there are several topic-based message boards on the Internet where you can find an audience who will agree with your viewpoints. This board is primarily based upon professional wrestling, but it also contains sections- like this one- where people who are interested in professional wrestling can gather to discuss other topics. This virtually guarantees a diverse audience sharing many different opinions, unless the topic is "do you watch professional wrestling".

That being said, you are currently trying to participate in a discussion with people who may not share your specific brand of God and Christianity. Right now your version of Christianity states that God makes people male or female, he always makes them straight, and that's it. I know of several Christians on this board who would disagree with that statement.

If you want to engage in the discussion with people and are prepared to deal with viewpoints that you may not agree with, we welcome your point of view to the discussion, whether or not we agree with it. If you are here to shout your opinions at people and tell them "that's just the way it is because I said so", kindly GTFO.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

No, people choose their sexuality. Show me proof they don't.

Want to go to a cemetary some time together and we can look at the gravestones of all the kids who killed themselves because they "chose" to be something they would kill themselves over?

People choose who they have sex with, they do not get to choose which gender they love or arouses them more or at all. When that time comes for you, I hope for your mental health you love pussy more than dick because otherwise you seem to be the type who lives in such a narrow box that you would sooner choose a coffin over reality.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

No, people choose their sexuality. Show me proof they don't.

Easy.



The first time you felt aroused by an attractive woman (or man, maybe you are in the closet and hate yourself) did you make a conscious choice to become aroused by her, or did it happen on its own?


Furthermore, if its a choice, I challenege you to go successfully fuck a dude right now, and enjoy yourself doing it.




Hello.

 

[GI Cake]

BSE has the worst case of cognitive dissonance I've ever fucking seen. In his world view, God created everyone straight, but you have to choose your sexuality. Lol wat.

 

[It's Damn Real!]

No, people choose their sexuality. Show me proof they don't.

Ah right, the ol' shifting the burden of proof thing. Quick lesson for you, champ... when you make positive claims (there is a god, people choose their sexuality, etc), it's on you to prove it, not on anyone else to disprove your assertion.

Here's an example of why...

Leprechauns exist. Prove they don't.

Oh for the love of God, you're either a girl or a boy. This is basic as it gets.

No. You're born a girl or a boy. That's your sex.

Your gender develops later in life.

What does Martin Luther King have to do with this?

Re-read what I wrote and you'll understand.

The LGBT community is simply the next civil rights wave. The same backwoods, bible-thumping bigots years ago talking about how blacks didn't deserve the same rights as whites share a common thread with the backwoods, bible-thumping bigots of today claiming LGBT don't deserve the same rights as straight people.