Week 7: ztwhite -versus- Milkyway!

[Mr. TM]

The better potential market: India or China?

Milkyway is the home debater, he gets to choose which side of the debate he is on first, but he has 24 hours.

Remember to read the rules. This thread is only for the debaters.

This round ends Friday 1:00 pm Pacific

Milk has a three hour extension. until 7pm on September 15th.

 

[Milkyway!]

I'll go with China. I'll let you open up with the first post.

 

[ztwhite]

Considered as one of the oldest and most ancient sports in the world, wrestling in India has a glorious past. Wrestling started its journey in India several centuries back, during the middle ages. Wrestling is considered one of the oldest and most prestigious events in the Olympics, and was included in the games in 708 B.C. In ancient times, wrestling was used as a way to stay in shape in India and was also used for military training without the use of weapons. Wrestling in India is also known as "dangal" and is the basic form of a wrestling tournament.

Wrestling in India is most famously known as Malla-Yuddha. Forms of Malla-Yuddha were practiced in India even before the country was invaded by the Aryans. The famous Indian epic, Mahabharata has a huge mention of wrestling in India. One of the main characters is considered to be a great wrestler of the time. Several other Indian ancient Indian novels also use wrestlers to portray their main characters strength and dominance.

During ancient times, wrestling used to get regular patronage from emperors and kings in India. The rulers used to provide wrestlers with milk, meat and high quality sweets, while the wrestlers spent a majority of their time away from the mats concentrating on bodybuilding. Indian kings had several "stables" of wrestlers who used to represent them against wrestlers from other kingdoms.

Wrestling in India can be separated into two categories - the aforementioned Malla-Yuddha and Malla Krida. Malla Krida is the sport version of wrestling, Malla-Yuddha is the battle version. There are also several other forms of wrestling in India - the technical version being called Hanumanthi where a wrestler can win the match using his technical skills rather than his physical skills. Jarasandhi is the form of wrestling where opponents try to break each others limbs and is considered the most dangerous. Orthia is a type of wrestling where the "3 knockdown rule" tends to apply. A wrestler wins the match by throwing his opponent to the ground three consecutive times to win. Kato Pale is a submission style form of wrestling. A wrestler wins by making his opponent accept defeat by raising his right hand with the index finger pointed.

In the 1960's, India was considered among the top countries in the world for wrestling. India hosted the World Wrestling Championship in 1967. Called Pehelwan, the wrestlers combined judo and jutusu (think Van Dam and the movie "Bloodsport").

Wrestling in India has had several "superstars". Legendary wrestler Karim Bux was the first man to defeat England's Tom Canon in 1892. Gobar Goho became the world champion in wrestling in 1922 by defeating Ad Santel in San Francisco. Khashaba Dadasaheb Jadev won a gold medal at the 1952 Olympics.

In recent years, Indian wrestlers have branched out into more mainstream arenas. Sushil Kamar won the bronze medal at the 2008 Olympic games in China. Sports entertainment (or fake wrestling) is also huge in India right now.Sonjay Dutt, Dalip Singh (The Great Khali), Dara Singh, and Tiger Jeet Singh has developed a massive fan base and often times, separate versions of TNA and the WWE are edited to make Indian wrestlers appear dominating even if they actually lose.

As you can see, wrestling has a long and storied history in India and there is a devout fan base that American wrestling companies are capitalizing on today. Wrestling overseas is an important part of both TNA and the WWE's revenue and they would be wise to continue developing wrestlers with an Indian background.

 

[Milkyway!]

Once again I'd like to thank TM, the judges, and the debators for participating and making all this possible. To ztwhite, I say good luck to you. Hope to have a nice, clean, and fun debate with you throughout the coarse of the week. We've seemed to have gotten a very hard topic to debate. Good luck.

As many of us should know, the WWE has a global domination over the professional wrestling industry. We have been asked the question which country would be more marketable, China or India? The obvious answer to this question is none other than China. Why? China has a much larger population, a better economy, has shown to be very nationalistic, and has more TV's than India.

Population
An obvious reason, if not the most obvious one China would be more marketable than India, is that China has a much larger population than India. China has 1,330,044,605 as of mid-2008, whereas India simply has 1,129,866,154. Thats 200,178,451 more people for China. Obviously, if each and every person simply gave 1 dollar to watch wrestling televsion. China would have 200,178,451 dollars more than India would have. Thats a lot of money in terms of profit. Thats 200,178,451 dollars that company wouldn't have, had it went to India to make money.

Economy
The Chinese Economy for entertainment is much higher than that of India. The total revenue of China's radio,TV and film industry increased 18 percent to 110 billion yuan (about 14.4 billion U.S. dollars) in 2006. China has a very profitable entertainment business. Obviously, this is good for a large company like the WWE to want to set up business. As they would gain more money from a country such as China. Where the inflation rates are at a great -1.8%. In India inflation is at a toppling 11%. They're trying to afford food, homes, basic needs of life, let alone 40$ Pay Per Views.

Nationalism
No doubt, both Indians and Chinese people have massive amounts of nationalism between one another. But all in all, who has the most nationalism? None other than China. India may be giving the Great Khali support right now (The only media attention India really has right now), but nothing India has compares to the amount of attention Yao Ming is currently getting. Just think, if instead of the NBA, another huge name in China would be on the WWE roster. Not only would they watch their Televisions to see this superstar as they do with Ming, and The Rockets. But, they would also buy the Pay Per Views, and Merchandising as they do with Yao Ming as well. China backs their people, especially when they are going up agaisnt a bunch of damned Americans.

The amount of TV's each country has
India: 63,000,000 - Going back up to the population part of my post. India has 1,129,866,154 yet only 63 million televisions? That's a 17 people to 1 tv ratio.

China: 400,000,000 - Going back up to the population part of my post yet again. China has 1,330,044,605. That
s near 4 televisions to 1 person.

If only 5% of China watched wrestling. It would be equal to 25% of all of Indian television owners watching wrestling.

 

[ztwhite]

But therein lies the problem with China - there are no superstars from the country right now.

When you take the side of the largest country in the world (I believe in population), of course there will be more televisions per capita of people. But who are they going to watch ?

There are no legitimate wrestlers from China, nor have there ever been (from my knowledge). What would make the Chinese population instantly show an interest in professional wrestling. They already have several major sports stars to look up to - Yao Ming, Yi Jianlian and Liu Xiang. The Chinese people congregate to their tv's when these guys are on, even if it's 2 in the morning. You stated yoursef that they spend mad amounts of money on entertainment, so where is the market for another form of entertainment. The money is already invested on existing forms. In India, they need entertainment because their economy doesn't present them with the numerous opportunities that exist in China. Sometimes less is more and India certainly has less which equates to more for TNA and the WWE.

The Chinese people also have a great deal of respect for tradition and perfection. Whether it's in their manufacturing, their resources or their family heritage - a fake product wouldn't sell to the Chinese people in my opinion.

According to the WWE, India is the company's second largest market. Most markets have seen a drop in adult viewers - India's has actually increased. Oddly enough, 45% of the Indian audience is female !

In order to be the market with the most potential, there has to be a potential within the market. India has already shown that it's potentially a market with lasting draw power. China is way behind right now.

 

[Milkyway!]

But therein lies the problem with China - there are no superstars from the country right now.

Thats irrellevant. The WWE had billions and billions of dollars at their side. To say that the WWE couldn't train and create their own Chinese star withing a few years, is silly. They have enough money to hire, and train their own stars. If the need for a chinese star is necassary, the WWE will simply create one.

When you take the side of the largest country in the world (I believe in population), of course there will be more televisions per capita of people.

Did you even read my ratios? Do you even know who has the 2nd largest population in the world? That would be India. Having a topling 1,129,866,154, the number 3 worlds largest population is the United States. Having 307,403,000. Can you see the number diffrence? Exactly. The US has 219 billion televisions. India is simply a very, very poor nation when it all boils down to it.

There are no legitimate wrestlers from China,

The art of Wrestling has been preformed in China since 2697 BC. The WWE has immense amounts of money. They can simply create their own Chinese wrestlers.

What would make the Chinese population instantly show an interest in professional wrestling. They already have several major sports stars to look up to - Yao Ming, Yi Jianlian and Liu Xiang. The Chinese people congregate to their tv's when these guys are on, even if it's 2 in the morning. You stated yoursef that they spend mad amounts of money on entertainment, so where is the market for another form of entertainment. The money is already invested on existing forms.

Thats silly. To think that they wouldn't spend on anything else, especially another form of entertainment is stupid. They began to like Yao Ming, Yi Jianlian, and Liu Xiang. Didn't they? They can certainly begin to like whatever WWE star the WWE can create with their large amounts of money.

In India, they need entertainment because their economy doesn't present them with the numerous opportunities that exist in China.

This still doesn't mean they can pursuade up to 25% of TV owners to watch the WWE. As I stated in my first post. China only has to have 5% of their TV owners watching the WWE, whereas India would need 25% just to match that very same number. Only 15 million viewers watch the WWE weekly here in the United States. You really think they can pursuade 25% of the Indian population to watch? You really think that it would be harder to pursuade 5% of the TV owners in China to watch, than 25% of Indians to watch?

The Chinese people also have a great deal of respect for tradition and perfection. Whether it's in their manufacturing, their resources or their family heritage - a fake product wouldn't sell to the Chinese people in my opinion.

This is a debate. Your opinion doesn't matter. We can't say such things, as theres nothing to prove otherwise. The Chinese are allready beginning to watch the WWE without a big chinese named superstar. Let alone with.

According to the WWE, India is the company's second largest market.

Prove it, don't just spout it out.

Most markets have seen a drop in adult viewers - India's has actually increased.

The WWE demographic is currecntly tageting children right now. They aren't worried about adult viewers.

Oddly enough, 45% of the Indian audience is female !

This is relevant how?

In order to be the market with the most potential, there has to be a potential within the market.

Thats silly. China is a growing market within the WWE right now.

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache...onal+revenue+sources&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

According to that, the China is expecting to be up to 10% of the WWE's income come 2011. 10% is a lot of money coming from one country.

 

[ztwhite]

Thats irrellevant. The WWE had billions and billions of dollars at their side. To say that the WWE couldn't train and create their own Chinese star withing a few years, is silly. They have enough money to hire, and train their own stars. If the need for a chinese star is necassary, the WWE will simply create one.

Then why haven't they ? Do you not think that a man like Vince McMahon, who is a good business man (regardless of the XFL), would have looked into taking his product mainstream in China ? There are clearly reasons why he "E" has not reached out to the world's most populous country.

Did you even read my ratios? Do you even know who has the 2nd largest population in the world? That would be India. Having a topling 1,129,866,154, the number 3 worlds largest population is the United States. Having 307,403,000. Can you see the number diffrence? Exactly. The US has 219 billion televisions. India is simply a very, very poor nation when it all boils down to it.

Truthfully - no. It was all just a bunch of numbers and quite frankly, after the third set of integers popped up in the paragraph, it was time to move on.

As for the number of tv's... here's some PROOF for you...

Courtesy of Wikipedia :

Television in India is a huge industry and has thousands of programmes in all the states of India. The small screen has produced numerous celebrities of their own kind some even attaining national fame. TV soaps are extremely popular with housewives as well as working women. Several small screen actors have made it big in Bollywood. Approximately half of all Indian households own a television, remarkable for a country where 77% of the population lives on less than Rs.20 (US$0.50) per day.

India has over 130 million homes with television sets, of which nearly 71 million have access to cable TV. The overall Cable TV market is growing at a robust 8-10%.[3] The cable TV industry exploded in the early 1990s when the broadcast industry was liberalized, and saw the entry of many foreign players like Rupert Murdoch's Star TV Network in 1991, MTV, and others. The emergence and notification of the HDVSL standard as a home grown Indian digital cable standard is likely to open an era of interactivity on cable networks.

Sun TV (India) was launched in 1992 as the first private channel in South India. Today it has 20 television channels in the four South Indian languages - Kannada, Malayalam, Tamil and Telugu. Channels of the Sun TV network are also available outside of India. Recently Sun TV launched a DTH service.

The Raj Television Network was started in 1994 and continues to be an important player in the South Indian cable TV provider space.

In 1992, the government liberated its markets, opening them up to cable television. Five new channels belonging to the Hong Kong based STAR TV gave Indians a fresh breath of life. MTV, STAR Plus, BBC, Prime Sports and STAR Chinese Channel were the 5 channels. Zee TV was the first private owned Indian channel to broadcast over cable. A few years later CNN, Discovery Channel, National Geographic Channel made its foray into India. Star expanded its bouquet introducing STAR World, STAR Sports, ESPN and STAR Gold. Regional channels flourished along with a multitude of Hindi channels and a few English channels. By 2001 HBO and History Channel were the other international channels to enter India. By 2001–2003, other international channels such as Nickelodeon, Cartoon Network, VH1, Disney and Toon Disney came into foray. In 2003 news channels started to boom.

Lets see - MTV, HBO, Disney, Cartoon Network, Discovery, Nat Geo, etc... sounds like there's a pretty big competition for viewership in India. I wonder why Vince would decide to target India instead of China ?? Man, I can't wait 'till that guy figures out how to run a business because he might just become successful.

So if I crunch your rediculously long ramble of numbers that I didn't read, that means that there is one television per every 8.6 people in India. That's using your figure for India's population, divided by the number of Wikipedia's televisions.

Wherever you pulled your numbers from in your first post, they need a little refiguring... or you need a better calculator.

The art of Wrestling has been preformed in China since 2697 BC. The WWE has immense amounts of money. They can simply create their own Chinese wrestlers.

That's a long time !! Why do you think they don't have any prominent wrestlers right now ?? I'll say because no one cares about wrestling. If they did, Vince would have easily invaded the country with his product by now.

Thats silly. To think that they wouldn't spend on anything else, especially another form of entertainment is stupid. They began to like Yao Ming, Yi Jianlian, and Liu Xiang. Didn't they? They can certainly begin to like whatever WWE star the WWE can create with their large amounts of money.

Those guys were stars well before they became stars here in the States. The Chinese people didn't "begin to like" them when they crossed the pond.

And they certainly could spend their large amounts of money on whatever they choose. That's why they don't need wrestling. They have money and can afford more luxurious forms of entertainment. One reason why television is so popular here in the States and in other countries is because compared to most forms of entertainment, it's relatively cheap. I don't need to provide proof of that - I majored in television and work in it - you want proof, look it up yourself !!

This still doesn't mean they can pursuade up to 25% of TV owners to watch the WWE. As I stated in my first post. China only has to have 5% of their TV owners watching the WWE, whereas India would need 25% just to match that very same number. Only 15 million viewers watch the WWE weekly here in the United States. You really think they can pursuade 25% of the Indian population to watch? You really think that it would be harder to pursuade 5% of the TV owners in China to watch, than 25% of Indians to watch?

Again... the cost of the entertainment is what will make them watch and the fact there are actually wrestlers FROM India is a definite bonus.

Based on the above figures from Wikipedia, mainstream US television stations appear to be pretty popular already in India which makes me think they like their US programs. Not too much persuassion needed, is there ?

This is a debate. Your opinion doesn't matter. We can't say such things, as theres nothing to prove otherwise. The Chinese are allready beginning to watch the WWE without a big chinese named superstar. Let alone with.

Says who ? Prove it...

Prove it, don't just spout it out.

http://www.wrestlinginc.com/news/2008/518/the_great_khali_324150.shtml

While I'm at it... I figured I'd throw in a link that talks about Superstars being shown in India as well. This also proves an error on the WZ main news site that reported just a few days ago that New Zealand was the only country outside of the US to show Superstars. Must be some pretty heavy interest in the WWE's product if India is only one of three countries to see their newest program.

http://www.wrestlingnewsworld.com/wwe-news/wwe-superstars-hell-in-a-cell-big-dick-johnson-jeff-hardy.php

Oh yeah... here's a link to "prove" my mention of the main WZ news site.

http://www.wrestlezone.com/news/article/stacy-keibler-on-twitter-wwe-superstars-expands-more-85385

The WWE demographic is currecntly tageting children right now. They aren't worried about adult viewers.

That's a pretty funny statement on your behalf. Next time you're scouring the interweb for debate material, look up the demographics for India - 60% of the population is kids !!!!

This is relevant how?

Because it helps to show that men and kids are not the only people in India interested in WWE or wrestling programming. It shows that their product reaches a diverse audience in the country, even though the WWE is "targeting kids" according to you.

Thats silly. China is a growing market within the WWE right now.

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache...onal+revenue+sources&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

According to that, the China is expecting to be up to 10% of the WWE's income come 2011. 10% is a lot of money coming from one country.

And if you look closely at that same spreadsheet you linked us to, India is included the portion of the International Growth with Australia, New Zealand, Japan and Korea... and they make up 70% of the WWE's current international revenue.

You think they're going to lose 61% of that revenue and China will surpass them ? Based on your own link, China still has another 60% of international revenue to make up before they're realistic international competition.

 

[Milkyway!]

Then why haven't they ?

You take one thing at a time. Do you think Vince is that stupid? He has to wait for people to show intrest in the product. China is about 5-10% of the WWE's foreign market alone. Give them time to really establish a fan base, without actually having to change the product.

Do you not think that a man like Vince McMahon, who is a good business man (regardless of the XFL)

Was the XFL comment necassary?

would have looked into taking his product mainstream in China ?

China is an emerging market on its own, without Vince having to edit out and put chinese wrestlers over everyone else. They like the product, for the product.

There are clearly reasons why he "E" has not reached out to the world's most populous country.

Because they don't need to. They're just emerging for the product itself right now. Once the country is up to 10-15% of the company's foreign income I'm certain Vince will begin to train chinese wrestler, hire them, go on tour in china, and the such alike. Until then, its hard for Vince to make that call, as theres no 100% certainty he will make more money going on tour in China, than he would in a place like the UK, France, Italy, Japan, etc.

Truthfully - no. It was all just a bunch of numbers and quite frankly, after the third set of integers popped up in the paragraph, it was time to move on.

I spent 9 hours looking for reliable sources and the such alike for this debate. You could take it seriously enough to look for your date, prove it, whilst using a reliable source.

Lets see - MTV, HBO, Disney, Cartoon Network, Discovery, Nat Geo, etc... sounds like there's a pretty big competition for viewership in India.

Aren't you contradicting yourself? Why yes, yes you are. You said in the post before this.

In India, they need entertainment because their economy doesn't present them with the numerous opportunities that exist in China. Sometimes less is more and India certainly has less which equates to more for TNA and the WWE.

Then you say this? Hmm.

So if I crunch your rediculously long ramble of numbers that I didn't read, that means that there is one television per every 8.6 people in India. That's using your figure for India's population, divided by the number of Wikipedia's televisions.

Incorrect. Your numbers are wrong. You used Wikifuckingpedia. Not a reliable source, especially in a real debate. I'm sorry if you don't take the Wrestling Debates seriously, but I see them as legit, professional debates. Wikipedia, is not a reliable source.

Wherever you pulled your numbers from in your first post, they need a little refiguring... or you need a better calculator.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/med_tel-media-televisions

I pulled my numbers from Nationmaster. Its a reliable source. Yours on the otherhand, is not. Everyone and their dog can edit Wikipedia.

That's a long time !! Why do you think they don't have any prominent wrestlers right now ?? I'll say because no one cares about wrestling. If they did, Vince would have easily invaded the country with his product by now.

Once again. China is an emerging market. You don't full blow target emerging markets. It makes no sense to do so. You target people you know will watch. Once China gets its foundation underhand, you will see Vince act.

Those guys were stars well before they became stars here in the States. The Chinese people didn't "begin to like" them when they crossed the pond.

The CBA was quite small during the days Yao played for them. Sure he was relevant to the Chinese people before crossing the Pacific, but where he gained his stardom. Was when he entered the NBA.

And they certainly could spend their large amounts of money on whatever they choose.[qoute]

Which is why targeting the Chinese would be the smartest thing Vince could do. Whereas India has no where near the amount of money, they can't aford the shirts, the Pay Per Views, hell they can hardly aford a TV.

That's why they don't need wrestling.

No one needs wrestling. The Chinese are well known to put all believe beside them, and let things entertain them. Just as Japan. Look at the sucess Japan has had with professional wrestling. China could very well be the same.

They have money and can afford more luxurious forms of entertainment.

I'm sorry. Are you saying professional wrestling is a poor mans form of entertainment? If so you're highly mistaken. I could do, or watch whatever I wanted when it comes to entertainment. But instead, I choose to save my 40$ a month to buy that Wrestling Pay Per View, buy my new shirts, and buy new DVD's. Wrestling is good enough for the chinese people, and one fine form of luxurious entertainment.

One reason why television is so popular here in the States and in other countries is because compared to most forms of entertainment, it's relatively cheap.

Wrestling is one of the most expensive forms of entertainment. I spend up to 1,000$ a year on wrestling (Pay Per Views, T-shirts, DVD's), and don't even go to a single live event. The wrestling world doesn't need to target the poor, poverty strucken people of India. It needs to target the economically prospering Chinese nation.

I don't need to provide proof of that -

I'm asking for it. Now prove it.

I majored in television and work in it - you want proof, look it up yourself !!

Don't be so lazy. You entered this debate. Back up what you say. Debates are black and white, the judges can only take what on paper. If you can provide no proof when I ask (Like right now) then theres no way I can believe you.

Again... the cost of the entertainment is what will make them watch and the fact there are actually wrestlers FROM India is a definite bonus.

Then China needs to be the one being targeted. The cost of the Wrestling industry is a huge amount of money. At my rate of spending near 1,000$ a year on the wrestling world. By the time I'm 70, I'll have spent 65,000$ of my own hard earned money on Vince McMahons product.

Based on the above figures from Wikipedia, mainstream US television stations appear to be pretty popular already in India which makes me think they like their US programs. Not too much persuassion needed, is there ?

Once again Wikipedia is not a reliable source.

Says who ? Prove it...

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:...&ct=clnk&gl=us

http://www.wrestlinginc.com/news/2008/518/the_great_khali_324150.shtml

http://www.wrestlingnewsworld.com/wwe-news/wwe-superstars-hell-in-a-cell-big-dick-johnson-jeff-hardy.php

Wikipedia is simply a mistake, made by MANY people. Using a wrestling news site as a form of source? Thats just ignorance. If it doesn't come straight from the WWE, or someone inside the WWE lockerroom/creative table/backstage, etc. I have a VERY hard time taking it under consideration. People inside the WWE themselves have said up to 75% of rumors going around on the internet are false. Just look at WZ. They stated just a few weeks ago, that Triple H's long lost brother played the original theme song for DX.

That's a pretty funny statement on your behalf. Next time you're scouring the interweb for debate material, look up the demographics for India - 60% of the population is kids !!!!

Just out of curiousity, what percentage of males watch the networking in India?

And if you look closely at that same spreadsheet you linked us to, India is included the portion of the International Growth with Australia, New Zealand, Japan and Korea... and they make up 70% of the WWE's current international revenue.

Congragulations? China is an emerging market within the WWE, not an allready established one, between 5 diffrent countries.

 

[ztwhite]

You take one thing at a time. Do you think Vince is that stupid? He has to wait for people to show intrest in the product. China is about 5-10% of the WWE's foreign market alone. Give them time to really establish a fan base, without actually having to change the product.

It's not 5-10% of their foreign market yet according to that spread sheet you linked us to a previous post. It's projected by the WWE to worth 10% of their international market worth by 2011... and that's a PROJECTION. Often times, projections are wrong or overestimated. India is already an established market and if it's not broke, don't fix it.

Was the XFL comment necassary?

If I didn't bring it up, I assumed you would

China is an emerging market on its own, without Vince having to edit out and put chinese wrestlers over everyone else. They like the product, for the product.

Dude, any country, no matter which one, wants to see "their" guy be victorious. Canada (mass pops for Jericho who's a heel), England (mass pops for Regal who's a heel), Spain (mass pops for Santino who's an idiot) or even here in the states when a guy goes back home - St. Louis (mass pops for Orton who's a heel).

It makes sense from a business standpoint to make India's wrestling hero look dominant.

And out of curiosity, how do you know Vince wouldn't do the same thing for a Chinese wrestler ?

Because they don't need to. They're just emerging for the product itself right now. Once the country is up to 10-15% of the company's foreign income I'm certain Vince will begin to train chinese wrestler, hire them, go on tour in china, and the such alike. Until then, its hard for Vince to make that call, as theres no 100% certainty he will make more money going on tour in China, than he would in a place like the UK, France, Italy, Japan, etc.

Yet there is 100% certainty that Vince is going to make money by going on tour in India because the WWE is already established in India - better potential market !!!

I spent 9 hours looking for reliable sources and the such alike for this debate. You could take it seriously enough to look for your date, prove it, whilst using a reliable source.

I took about a half hour to find all the stats, numbers, facts and sources to back up my aforementioned information. Plus, I took a leak and smoked a cigarette in that half hour. Looks like I have better resources at my dispossal or I surf the interweb a lot more efficiently.

As for being serious... I can be a comedic jobber if you'd like... but in the end I'll still dance circles around you and prove my point more effectively.

Aren't you contradicting yourself? Why yes, yes you are. You said in the post before this.

Completely misunderstood the point my man, and I understand why - I didn't explain myself correctly.

By using the word "competition", I should have used the word "variety" instead. You're making India out to be a country where everyone lives in the desert in a tent and barely has a pot to piss in. Yet, they have cable television channels equivalent to those in the US and elsewhere and rely on America to provide them with their television entertainment.

If the WWE is popular here in the States, which it is - arguably, it only makes logical sense that it would be popular in India since they appear to have an infatuation with American television.

Incorrect. Your numbers are wrong. You used Wikifuckingpedia. Not a reliable source, especially in a real debate. I'm sorry if you don't take the Wrestling Debates seriously, but I see them as legit, professional debates. Wikipedia, is not a reliable source.

In your opinion. But there are millions... and millions (sorry, had to) of people who use Wikipedia for information everyday.

But one of the FACTS I received from Wikifuckingpedia as you called it came from The New York Times...

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/11/business/yourmoney/11india.html?_r=1&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

... and the other came from ScatIndia 2009 (the country's largest tradeshow for the Indian Cable and Satellite Industry)...

http://www.scatindia.com/indianmarket.htm

Anything else ??????????

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/med_tel-media-televisions

I pulled my numbers from Nationmaster. Its a reliable source. Yours on the otherhand, is not. Everyone and their dog can edit Wikipedia.

BTW - it didn't take me 9 hours to find those links either...

Once again. China is an emerging market. You don't full blow target emerging markets. It makes no sense to do so. You target people you know will watch. Once China gets its foundation underhand, you will see Vince act.

So you say "you target people who will watch". Well they're already watching in India so why not increase the opportunites in a market which is already watching. I'm not saying that invading China isn't a good idea, but India has the better potential since their natives are already hooked.

The CBA was quite small during the days Yao played for them. Sure he was relevant to the Chinese people before crossing the Pacific, but where he gained his stardom. Was when he entered the NBA.

You're obviously not a sports afficianado. Yao played for China's National Team as well and if you knew anything about international basketball, you would know that China's National Team is one of the most recognized and respected international teams ever. Yi and Liu also played on the team

And they certainly could spend their large amounts of money on whatever they choose.

^^^I'll fix this for you since you screwed it up in your last post ^^^

Which is why targeting the Chinese would be the smartest thing Vince could do. Whereas India has no where near the amount of money, they can't aford the shirts, the Pay Per Views, hell they can hardly aford a TV.

Taj Television broadcasts all WWE events and from my understanding, they don't have to pay for PPV's, but I could certainly be wrong on this. I could only find limited information on PPV viewing abroad, either in India or another country.

As for tv's... do we really need to address this again ? I already punked your ass out by disproving your original figures and showing that the real number is 8.6 people per television in India. Not US or China numbers, but certainly respectable and definitely reason enough for you to stop using the claim that Indians can't afford tv's !

No one needs wrestling. The Chinese are well known to put all believe beside them, and let things entertain them. Just as Japan. Look at the sucess Japan has had with professional wrestling. China could very well be the same.

"Could" and "are" have two very different meanings. Could CHina very well be the same - of course. But so COULD Antarctica. So COULD Austria. So COULD Djibouti (it's a country - Google it). If COULD and SHOULDS happened all the time, the world WOULD be a wonderful place, wouldn't it ?

The Chinese have not shown a longterm interest in wrestling yet. If they had, don't you think there would have been an invasion on the country with wrestling stuff already ??!! Why, when wrestling ratings are at one of its lowest points since the Attitude Era, would they care now ? If they didn't care when wrestling was booming in the 1990's, they aren't going to care now, especially when the product isn't as good as it used to be.

I'm sorry. Are you saying professional wrestling is a poor mans form of entertainment? If so you're highly mistaken. I could do, or watch whatever I wanted when it comes to entertainment. But instead, I choose to save my 40$ a month to buy that Wrestling Pay Per View, buy my new shirts, and buy new DVD's. Wrestling is good enough for the chinese people, and one fine form of luxurious entertainment.

Wrestling is one of the most expensive forms of entertainment. I spend up to 1,000$ a year on wrestling (Pay Per Views, T-shirts, DVD's), and don't even go to a single live event. The wrestling world doesn't need to target the poor, poverty strucken people of India. It needs to target the economically prospering Chinese nation.

You made me LOL - thanks Poor mans form - not exactly. But is it a form of entertainment for the wealthy - absolutely not. We all know what wrestling fans are comprised of and I won't elaborate or sterotype anyone in this post, but I will certainly imply it. However you should really check out the online streams of PPV's (not that I know anything about those) and watch Ebay for your wrestling attire and DVD's - much cheaper.

I'm asking for it. Now prove it.

Don't be so lazy. You entered this debate. Back up what you say. Debates are black and white, the judges can only take what on paper. If you can provide no proof when I ask (Like right now) then theres no way I can believe you.

You're really pissing me off with this whole prove it shit. Some of us are highly educated and actually know stuff without having to look it up - you should try college and studying - that well spent wrestling money would go a long way towards towards a proper education.

Here's your "proof"...

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/12/02/new-survey-finds-families-turning-to-tv-for-cheap-entertainment/

Then China needs to be the one being targeted. The cost of the Wrestling industry is a huge amount of money. At my rate of spending near 1,000$ a year on the wrestling world. By the time I'm 70, I'll have spent 65,000$ of my own hard earned money on Vince McMahons product.

So are you saying that you've been spending $1000 every year on wrestling since you were 5 ? Because by your math, that means you started dropping $1000 bucks when you were 5. Man, I knew them kids who made my shoes were paid, but I didn't think they were paid well - who knew ?

Once again Wikipedia is not a reliable source.

Um... yes it is or do I need to address that again so you get it ?

Wikipedia is simply a mistake, made by MANY people. Using a wrestling news site as a form of source? Thats just ignorance. If it doesn't come straight from the WWE, or someone inside the WWE lockerroom/creative table/backstage, etc. I have a VERY hard time taking it under consideration. People inside the WWE themselves have said up to 75% of rumors going around on the internet are false. Just look at WZ. They stated just a few weeks ago, that Triple H's long lost brother played the original theme song for DX.

I'll bet you live a very suspicious life... Even though I make a living covering sports, I don't have access to the WWE lockerroom / creative table / backstage, etc... I rely on what people "inside" the business report. Much the same as the world relies on their respective news services to report the news. Everyone gets stuff wrong occassionally, it's called human error and we all make them. I take what gets reported on wrestling internet sites or Wikipedia and run with it. You keep looking for whay you consider "legitimate proof". When you're done - let me know who killed JFK, if there's really a Presidential Book of Secrets and where Noah's Ark is located.

Just out of curiousity, what percentage of males watch the networking in India?

Out of curiosity, why does it matter ? You said the WWE is targeting kids and 60% of India's population is kids.

Congragulations? China is an emerging market within the WWE, not an allready established one, between 5 diffrent countries.

So divide that 70% by 5 (the number of countries) and you'll get 14% per country. Not sure where you get your math from, but where I come from, 14% > 10% - which is still only a projection, not actual.

 

[Milkyway!]

It's not 5-10% of their foreign market yet according to that spread sheet you linked us to a previous post.

It was 5% according to that spread sheet at the time. According to the same spreadsheet it is growing, and expected to be at 10% in 2011. Which it could be wrong, but it allready had a foundation number of 5% so, obviously it is somewhere between 5-10% according to this spread sheet.

It's projected by the WWE to worth 10% of their international market worth by 2011... and that's a PROJECTION. Often times, projections are wrong or overestimated. India is already an established market and if it's not broke, don't fix it.

I didn't say it was at 10% now did I? I took the estimated number it was expected to grow, and the foundational number it allready had. Then said the number is somewhere between that number.

If I didn't bring it up, I assumed you would

The XFL has nothing to do with China, nor India. That would be pure ignorance on my part.

Dude, any country, no matter which one, wants to see "their" guy be victorious.

Yes, thats called Nationalism. I never stated that the Chinese wouldn't watch more had they had their own big star wrestling inside the WWE. I simply stated the Chinese are enjoying the show, without a Chinese star. now, imagine the Chinese actually having a big star to care about in the WWE. Get what I'm saying?

Canada (mass pops for Jericho who's a heel),

They boo'd him the last time the WWE was in Canada on RAW.

Spain (mass pops for Santino who's an idiot)

Err, Santino is from Italy kayfaybe wise.

or even here in the states when a guy goes back home - St. Louis (mass pops for Orton who's a heel).

Orton gets pops everywhere. Theres some crouds who like certain types of heels, Orton being one of the types that "marky" crouds will eat directly out of Orton's hands.

It makes sense from a business standpoint to make India's wrestling hero look dominant.

Once again. I never said it didn't. But those edits cost money, something they don't have to do for China right now, yet China is still growing in value for the WWE market. The question of the debate is potential market, not who is allready a market. Just becuase India is beating China currently, doesn't mean they are the better place to go to. Simply becuase China is in a better economic standpoint, has more TV's, and really really get into their entertainment. Where I can only afford to spend so much a year, the Chinese people can put in shitloads more into what they are interested in, as they do now.

And out of curiosity, how do you know Vince wouldn't do the same thing for a Chinese wrestler ?

You put words into my mouth. I said he didn't have to do it currently. I never said he wouldn't ever do it.

Yet there is 100% certainty that Vince is going to make money by going on tour in India because the WWE is already established in India - better potential market !!!

Actually there isn't a 100% certainty that Vince would make more money going to India right now. As there has never been an Indian tour, nor a Chinese tour. Right now, it would cost too much to go into either country, than they would get out of it, why? Because in India the people are less likely to have the 60$ a ticket it takes to pay and go see the WWE superstars. In China, there simply isn't enough people yet. Once the WWE fortifys and strengthens the Chinese population of watching the WWE, then a tour overseas into China is not out of the question.

I took about a half hour to find all the stats, numbers, facts and sources to back up my aforementioned information. Plus, I took a leak and smoked a cigarette in that half hour. Looks like I have better resources at my dispossal or I surf the interweb a lot more efficiently.

Congragulations? I checked my sources, checked them again, and checked those sources too. I didn't base it off one man. I based it off several people.

As for being serious... I can be a comedic jobber if you'd like... but in the end I'll still dance circles around you and prove my point more effectively.

I thought this was a debate? Grow up, theres no need to act 4. I'm not willing to say I'm better than you, but I'm certainly grossed out by the fact you think you're better than me.

Completely misunderstood the point my man, and I understand why - I didn't explain myself correctly.

Oh, didn't you read all the catagories? Clarity of Debate is very important.

By using the word "competition", I should have used the word "variety" instead.

Sounds personal. You contradicted yourself, and used the word competition, instead of variety like you should have.

You're making India out to be a country where everyone lives in the desert in a tent and barely has a pot to piss in.

No I'm making it out as accurately as I possibly can. The Indian economy is in the shitter, whereas the Chinese economy is currently prospering, and expected to go up an 8% higher than it currently is.

Yet, they have cable television channels equivalent to those in the US and elsewhere and rely on America to provide them with their television entertainment.

Uhh? How does this prove that only 63 million televisions (According to the CIA-World Factbook, which I trust WAY more than the New York Times) are watchable in India, where theres 4 billion in China. Obviously 4 billion is a MUCH higher number than 63 million. Only 5% of the Televisions have to be watched to equal 25% of the Indian population. Which is highly doubtable that the WWE can grab 25% of the Indian population. Whereas in China, it would be much much easier to get 5% of the population to watch the WWE.

If the WWE is popular here in the States, which it is - arguably, it only makes logical sense that it would be popular in India since they appear to have an infatuation with American television.

Thats a silly assumption. We can't verify such a thing. The Chinese are not polar oposites from the US, actually they enjoy kiddy things. As cartoons are one of the most watched stations in China.

In your opinion. But there are millions... and millions (sorry, had to) of people who use Wikipedia for information everyday.

More power to them. But if you attempted to use this in a research report, or even a DEBATORS LEAUGE like we're in. It shouldn't be used as a reliable source. Because as I said, it can be edited by everyone and their dog.

But one of the FACTS I received from Wikifuckingpedia as you called it came from The New York Times...

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/11/business/yourmoney/11india.html?_r=1&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

Which contradicts what the CIA-World Factbook says. Honestly, I'm going to take the CIA-World Factbook over the New York Times. As newspapers, magazines, and the such have been proven wrong before. But I've never once heard of a single problem with the CIA-World Factbook.

... and the other came from ScatIndia 2009 (the country's largest tradeshow for the Indian Cable and Satellite Industry)...

http://www.scatindia.com/indianmarket.htm

Anything else ??????????

Nope.

BTW - it didn't take me 9 hours to find those links either...

Congrats? I'm not sure if you're trying to insult me, or you're just burrating the fact that you don't put near as much effort into this leauge as I do.

So you say "you target people who will watch". Well they're already watching in India so why not increase the opportunites in a market which is already watching.

Those who are going to watch in India is allready watching.

I'm not saying that invading China isn't a good idea, but India has the better potential since their natives are already hooked.

Taj Television broadcasts all WWE events and from my understanding, they don't have to pay for PPV's, but I could certainly be wrong on this. I could only find limited information on PPV viewing abroad, either in India or another country.

If you can't find enough to display where you found it, then its probably not true. I've never heard this in my life. Pay Per Views, and Merchandising is where the WWE makes most of its money. The Indians economy can't afford to be wasting such money on entertainment, whereas the Chinese have shown over the coarse of the past decade, they will spend TREMENDOUS amounts of money for their entertainment purposes.

I already punked your ass out by disproving your original figures and showing that the real number is 8.6 people per television in India.

No you didn't. You made yourself look like a fool. Theres only 63,000,000 televisions in India according to the CIA-World Factbook. Once again, I'm going to take their numbers, over one mans numbers working for the New York Times.

Not US or China numbers, but certainly respectable and definitely reason enough for you to stop using the claim that Indians can't afford tv's !

Just to entertain you, we'll use your numbers and pretend they are correct. Which is 80 million you said? Theres still about 1,049,866,154 people without televisions in India. Theres near 3 billion more TV's in China than the populace actually has. Obviously, China would be the more marketable from the TV rates. Of course, if you say otherwise, you're just being an idiot.

The Chinese have not shown a longterm interest in wrestling yet.

The Indians have? They've been watching like what? 4 years?

If they had, don't you think there would have been an invasion on the country with wrestling stuff already ??!!

Babysteps my friend. You can't rush business, and just invade shit.

Why, when wrestling ratings are at one of its lowest points since the Attitude Era, would they care now ?

Ratings are quite high compared to a year ago. Have you even been paying attention to the ratings as of late? The WWE is pulling 3.5's-4.0's.

If they didn't care when wrestling was booming in the 1990's, they aren't going to care now, especially when the product isn't as good as it used to be.

The WWE was working on countries in Europe, and Canada during the time of the 1990's on an international scale. India, nor China were included in the mix. Once again, it all goes back to baby steps are taken in businesses.

You made me LOL - thanks Poor mans form - not exactly. But is it a form of entertainment for the wealthy - absolutely not.

For a good fan such as myself? Our sport is quite expensive. It costs 300$ to get every Basketball game on television a year. Same with football. Well, that covers about 7.5 of my Pay Per Views a year. Its not a rich persons form of entertainment, but if you follow it, and buy every programming they have, it certainly isn't light on your pockets. It costs near 500$ a year, only if you buy the Pay Per Views. If I continue to pay 500$ a year for 10 years, I've spent 5,000 dollars on my form of entertainment alone. Now compare that to football, basketball, etc. That would only cost 3,000$ a decade. Its not as expensive as say, boxing. But it certainly isn't as cheap as baketball/football.

However you should really check out the online streams of PPV's (not that I know anything about those) and watch Ebay for your wrestling attire and DVD's - much cheaper.

I obviously use Ebay for my DvD's, not attire though. I don't know who wore it before me.

You're really pissing me off with this whole prove it shit. Some of us are highly educated and actually know stuff without having to look it up

I hardly trust a guy intelligence over the internet. Sorry. If its not a well known source, with PHD's or firsthand experience. I'm not going to trust their opinions on much.

- you should try college and studying - that well spent wrestling money would go a long way towards towards a proper education.

I'm 16. I'm currently taking 2 college classes (assuming I pass these two colelge classes I will then have 8 college credits), and have 5 college credits. Don't question my education when you know nothing about me.

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/12/02/new-survey-finds-families-turning-to-tv-for-cheap-entertainment/

How does this

So are you saying that you've been spending $1000 every year on wrestling since you were 5 ? Because by your math, that means you started dropping $1000 bucks when you were 5. Man, I knew them kids who made my shoes were paid, but I didn't think they were paid well - who knew ?

Actually, my dad has always bought everything WWE. He has always bought every Pay Per View, and has always gotten into the shows. Not I personally, as I still don't throw 1000$ a year down. My mother does. I was simply stating the numbers my family usually spends on the WWE product. Which is usually around 1,000$ a year.

I'll bet you live a very suspicious life... Even though I make a living covering sports, I don't have access to the WWE lockerroom / creative table / backstage, etc... I rely on what people "inside" the business report.

I don't trust many. Nope. Like I said, I only trust those who are directly involved inside the business, especially when it comes to a business like WWE.

Out of curiosity, why does it matter ? You said the WWE is targeting kids and 60% of India's population is kids.

Just answer the question. If you have knowledge on how many children watch, how many women watch, shouldn't you know how many males watch? So whats the percentage of Indian males watching the WWE weekly?

So divide that 70% by 5 (the number of countries) and you'll get 14% per country. Not sure where you get your math from, but where I come from, 14% > 10% - which is still only a projection, not actual.

14% > 10% is a higher number. But once again, its not about whos winning right now. Its who has the most potential marketing. Which is CERTAINLY China.

 

[ztwhite]

It was 5% according to that spread sheet at the time. According to the same spreadsheet it is growing, and expected to be at 10% in 2011. Which it could be wrong, but it allready had a foundation number of 5% so, obviously it is somewhere between 5-10% according to this spread sheet.

It's simply a rough estimation with nothing firmly established. The professional wrestling market is already rooted in India and it is much easier to build upon established success rather than start from scratch. The better potential market is India because their people are already hooked. It also makes the job of the WWE marketing team that much easier. If the country is already following the product, selling additional resources is relatively easy. Starting from scratch in China is an uphill battle and no one knows whether the climb will be successful.

I didn't say it was at 10% now did I? I took the estimated number it was expected to grow, and the foundational number it allready had. Then said the number is somewhere between that number.

I'll say it again - the market in India is established. China is a crapshoot.

The XFL has nothing to do with China, nor India. That would be pure ignorance on my part.

Sure it does. It demonstrates a failed business venture in a market (football) that was already saturated by a much more dominant group (NFL). It's much the same as other forms of entertainment for the Chinese people. They have their forms of entertainment established and saturating the market with another form (wrestling) is bad business. You don't rock the boat unless success is guaranteed and there's no guarantee the WWE or professional wrestling will be successful in China. It's already successful in India so capitalize on that success and blast the market with new and better features.

Yes, thats called Nationalism. I never stated that the Chinese wouldn't watch more had they had their own big star wrestling inside the WWE. I simply stated the Chinese are enjoying the show, without a Chinese star. now, imagine the Chinese actually having a big star to care about in the WWE. Get what I'm saying?

I do get it. But if it were that simple, why in the 100+ year history of professional wrestling has there not been a big name Chinese star ? Because the interest is not there. Whereas in India, several stars have been developed and followed, currently with Khali and Dutt making their names for the country.

They boo'd him the last time the WWE was in Canada on RAW.

Orton gets pops everywhere. Theres some crouds who like certain types of heels, Orton being one of the types that "marky" crouds will eat directly out of Orton's hands.

Kayfabe wise - yes. But we both know that wrestling fans love their hometown boys regardless of whether they are face or heel.

Once again. I never said it didn't. But those edits cost money, something they don't have to do for China right now, yet China is still growing in value for the WWE market. The question of the debate is potential market, not who is allready a market. Just becuase India is beating China currently, doesn't mean they are the better place to go to. Simply becuase China is in a better economic standpoint, has more TV's, and really really get into their entertainment. Where I can only afford to spend so much a year, the Chinese people can put in shitloads more into what they are interested in, as they do now.

Past success predicts future success. The product is already successful in India so hypothetically, the better potential market in India. It's Business 101 really.

That's why TNA is currently in the midst of a marketing blitz in India...

http://www.indiantelevision.com/interviews/y2k9/executive/dixie_carter.php

Actually there isn't a 100% certainty that Vince would make more money going to India right now. As there has never been an Indian tour, nor a Chinese tour. Right now, it would cost too much to go into either country, than they would get out of it, why? Because in India the people are less likely to have the 60$ a ticket it takes to pay and go see the WWE superstars. In China, there simply isn't enough people yet. Once the WWE fortifys and strengthens the Chinese population of watching the WWE, then a tour overseas into China is not out of the question.

Wrong...

http://www.validinformation.com/2009/06/wwe-tours-to-india.html

Congragulations? I checked my sources, checked them again, and checked those sources too. I didn't base it off one man. I based it off several people.

According to you, it doesn't matter who my sources are either way - they are not credible to you. So why spend several hours looking for the same info I can find in less than an hour ?

I thought this was a debate? Grow up, theres no need to act 4. I'm not willing to say I'm better than you, but I'm certainly grossed out by the fact you think you're better than me.

Confidence young man... it goes a long way in life

Oh, didn't you read all the catagories? Clarity of Debate is very important.

I admitted that I made a poor choice in my wording. I'm not perfect and will never claim to be so.

Sounds personal. You contradicted yourself, and used the word competition, instead of variety like you should have.

Already addressed...

No I'm making it out as accurately as I possibly can. The Indian economy is in the shitter, whereas the Chinese economy is currently prospering, and expected to go up an 8% higher than it currently is.

Again... you are using an estimate. I think there needs to be a dictionary used and you need to flip to the "e's" and look up the definiton of estimate. I have solid numbers that establish Inida as a dominant market right now and there's no foreseeable reason why they won't continue to be dominant.

Uhh? How does this prove that only 63 million televisions (According to the CIA-World Factbook, which I trust WAY more than the New York Times) are watchable in India, where theres 4 billion in China. Obviously 4 billion is a MUCH higher number than 63 million. Only 5% of the Televisions have to be watched to equal 25% of the Indian population. Which is highly doubtable that the WWE can grab 25% of the Indian population. Whereas in China, it would be much much easier to get 5% of the population to watch the WWE.

Again, I'll reference the TNA invasion in India right now. There's clearly a market for professional wrestling in the country and for a company that's desperate to garner fans, money and make an impact, TNA chose India, not China.

Thats a silly assumption. We can't verify such a thing. The Chinese are not polar oposites from the US, actually they enjoy kiddy things. As cartoons are one of the most watched stations in China.

We most certainly can make that assumption. The evidence points in that direction and you're all about proving things which I have done. At some point, there needs to be assumptions made because we're dealing with a topic that neither of us have first hand knowledge of - unless you consider scouring the interweb first hand knowledge which I do not.

More power to them. But if you attempted to use this in a research report, or even a DEBATORS LEAUGE like we're in. It shouldn't be used as a reliable source. Because as I said, it can be edited by everyone and their dog.

And on Wikipedia, every quote, fact or tidbit of information is supported with a link to a credible source. If there's no credible source, it's earmarked as such. It's not simply a sigh where false information can be posted without clearly being marked as not verified. BTW - I'd love to see a dog add info to Wikipedia - that'd be pretty cool !

Which contradicts what the CIA-World Factbook says. Honestly, I'm going to take the CIA-World Factbook over the New York Times. As newspapers, magazines, and the such have been proven wrong before. But I've never once heard of a single problem with the CIA-World Factbook.

Because the World Factbook is written and updated by our government. I see that you're young and misguided, but if you think our government is forthcoming and truthful with all their information, you're also very naive.

Nope.

Thanks.

Congrats? I'm not sure if you're trying to insult me, or you're just burrating the fact that you don't put near as much effort into this leauge as I do.

I work smarter, not harder. And I have clearly put enough effort into this league to be considered one of, if not thee best debator here. The standings will show that when we are all said and done.

Those who are going to watch in India is allready watching.

And those who you claim are being targeted in China are not.

If you can't find enough to display where you found it, then its probably not true. I've never heard this in my life. Pay Per Views, and Merchandising is where the WWE makes most of its money. The Indians economy can't afford to be wasting such money on entertainment, whereas the Chinese have shown over the coarse of the past decade, they will spend TREMENDOUS amounts of money for their entertainment purposes.

Again, I said the evidence was inconclusive. But there is obviously someone in India shelling out their money for the WWE product. If they weren't, their would be no WWE in the country.

No you didn't. You made yourself look like a fool. Theres only 63,000,000 televisions in India according to the CIA-World Factbook. Once again, I'm going to take their numbers, over one mans numbers working for the New York Times.

The NYT is most definitely a legit and reliable source. It's one of the most respected newspapers in the country. Being a journalist myself, I'm sure the reported covered his bases well since lawsuits are easy to file and win against a journalist. If his info was wrong, he would have been called to task for it.

Just to entertain you, we'll use your numbers and pretend they are correct. Which is 80 million you said? Theres still about 1,049,866,154 people without televisions in India. Theres near 3 billion more TV's in China than the populace actually has. Obviously, China would be the more marketable from the TV rates. Of course, if you say otherwise, you're just being an idiot.

China COULD be a more marketable country, but it isn't. India is growing each and every day and there's no limit to the reach right now. China is simply geting started and no can accurately predict where is will end up. Proof has already been shown that both the WWE and TNA think India is the futre of international professional wrestling markets.

The Indians have? They've been watching like what? 4 years?

Which if 4 years longer than China...

Babysteps my friend. You can't rush business, and just invade shit.

Sure you can - you have to spend money to make money. An all out blitz is what wins. Make your product front and center and make sure people are subjected to it at every turn. That's a good business model "my friend".

Ratings are quite high compared to a year ago. Have you even been paying attention to the ratings as of late? The WWE is pulling 3.5's-4.0's.

Higher than a year ago - yes. Anywhere near where they were during the Attitude Era - hardly. I'll say it again, if pro wrestling didn't catch on back in the 90's, it's not going to catch on now. The product is inferior and that's not debatable.

The WWE was working on countries in Europe, and Canada during the time of the 1990's on an international scale. India, nor China were included in the mix. Once again, it all goes back to baby steps are taken in businesses.

Still wrong...

http://www.validinformation.com/2009/06/wwe-tours-to-india.html

For a good fan such as myself? Our sport is quite expensive. It costs 300$ to get every Basketball game on television a year. Same with football. Well, that covers about 7.5 of my Pay Per Views a year. Its not a rich persons form of entertainment, but if you follow it, and buy every programming they have, it certainly isn't light on your pockets. It costs near 500$ a year, only if you buy the Pay Per Views. If I continue to pay 500$ a year for 10 years, I've spent 5,000 dollars on my form of entertainment alone. Now compare that to football, basketball, etc. That would only cost 3,000$ a decade. Its not as expensive as say, boxing. But it certainly isn't as cheap as baketball/football.

Dude - wrestling is viewed as a redneck, hillbilly form of entertainment - plain and simple. Can the average person afford to entertain themselves with wrestling, of course they can. The average cost of a WWE live event ticket is much cheaper than the average cost of a professional sports ticket. Plus, a WWE live event only comes around a few times a year. A pro sports team plays dozens of games every year and it's unlikely that the averaged income family can afford to follow their favorite sports teams in person.

I obviously use Ebay for my DvD's, not attire though. I don't know who wore it before me.

Smart... vert smart.

I hardly trust a guy intelligence over the internet. Sorry. If its not a well known source, with PHD's or firsthand experience. I'm not going to trust their opinions on much.

If it's on the internet, it must be true !!!!! If I learned it in a textbook or from an accredited university, I must be full of crap !!!!!

I'm 16. I'm currently taking 2 college classes (assuming I pass these two colelge classes I will then have 8 college credits), and have 5 college credits. Don't question my education when you know nothing about me.

But you just questioned my education by saying the internet is much more reliable. Which do you want to be today - the pot or the kettle ?

Actually, my dad has always bought everything WWE. He has always bought every Pay Per View, and has always gotten into the shows. Not I personally, as I still don't throw 1000$ a year down. My mother does. I was simply stating the numbers my family usually spends on the WWE product. Which is usually around 1,000$ a year.

You seem like you have a great dad ! Take a moment and go say thanks - seriously I know I don't tell my parents thank you enough and will always encourage everyone to do so.

I don't trust many. Nope. Like I said, I only trust those who are directly involved inside the business, especially when it comes to a business like WWE.

You will in time when maturity kicks in.

Just answer the question. If you have knowledge on how many children watch, how many women watch, shouldn't you know how many males watch? So whats the percentage of Indian males watching the WWE weekly?

Can't - don't have it.

But I do have this and you should read it closely because it pretty much seals the deal...

http://www.diehardindian.com/ntertain/media.htm

 

[Milkyway!]

Well. The information for this debate has been presented. In conclution, I have said why I think China is the better potential market, and as has ztwhite. The numbers have been shown, sources have been shown, and we're basically debating circles at the moment. As I feel there is no need to beat a dead horse. I tip my hat to you ztwhite. Any further debating would simply lower the quality of the debate to a "India rox, no china!" style of Debate. We've had a good debate, this debate is officially over.

 

[Mr. TM]

Clarity Of Debate: Milk had the cleanest and most organised debate. He gets this point.

Punctuality: This was close, but the only person late was ztwhite.

Informative: Tons of information brought forth here. When I was reading the debate, and saw zt's first post, I was like "This chap has it in the bag". Then I saw Milk's posts, and thought the same. I think Milk did a great job of bring the information throughout the debate. He gets this point.

Emotionality: I didn't like however, the way the emotion went in this debate. Cat fights aren't my thing. However, i thought Milk was very passionate in his debate, and I will give him this point.

Persuasion: Milk, you did a great job in persuading me that China is the place to be. Interesting, because I was leaning towards India. This was not a one sided debate, just Milk bring forth the best in each category.

TM rates this 5 points milk, 0 points ztwhite.

 

[CH David]

Clarity: ztwhite even said he wasn't clear, so Milky gets the point.

Point: Milkyway

Punctuality: ztwhite was late by one hour on his first post, otherwise this would have been a split.

Point: Milkyway

Informative: There was a wealth of information provided by both participants, but I feel that some of Milky's numbers are more estimates as well, rather than concrete numbers.

Point: ztwhite

Emotionality: Both had good passion flowing through the debate, However I think Milky may have gotten a little carried away in trying to discredit Wikipedia (it is routinely checked and moderated) and other parts of ztwhite's argument.

Point: ztwhite

Persuasion: Milky gets this point. China's population is already the biggest in the world, and if Vince can find a niche, or create some sort of superstar based on Chinese heritage, they could gain more popularity than Khali has been generating for India.

Point: Milkyway

CH David scores it Milkyway 3, ztwhite 2.

 

[Miko]

Clarity: Milkyway was the clearer of the two

Point: Milkyway

Punctuality: Milk

Point: Milkyway

Informative: Milky bought in better points for his arguments

Point: Milkyway

Emotionality: I'll give this one to ztwhite, he had a fighting instinct, a fighting instinct for typing

Point: ztwhite

Persuasion: Yeah I am afraid I have to go with Milk on this one

Point: Milkyway

I score this round

Milkyway - 4
ztwhite - 1

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

Clarity Of Debate - ztwhite gets the point here. You are a very lucid thinker, my man.

Point: ztwhite

Punctuality - Read what TM wrote.

Point: Milkyway!

Informative - Milkyway! put a ton of effort into this...he will be rewarded soon. He won't be rewarded fully here though, as ztwhite knows where to get information as well.

Point: Split

Emotionality - ztwhite, my man, if only you could have participated in the League every week. You know how to keep a debate suspenseful and exciting.

Point: ztwhite

Persuasion - Milkyway!, excellent work here, my man. It's too bad you won't be in the playoffs. I think you could make it to the finals.

Point: Milkyway!

tdigle's Score

ztwhite - 2.5
Milkyway! - 2.5