Week 7: Tastycles -versus- SavageTaker

[Mr. TM]

Vince McMahon vs Mr. McMahon: Who would you rather work for? The man or the character?

SavageTaker is the home debater, he gets to choose which side of the debate he is on first, but he has 24 hours.

Remember to read the rules. This thread is only for the debaters.

This round ends Friday 1:00 pm Pacific

Error: Copy and pasted wrong.

 

[SavageTaker]

I am going to choose that I would rather work for Vince McMahon the man.

Tastycles can post first and I should have my post up tomorrow as I am not near a computer right now so I can't type up my argument.

 

[Tastycles]

The fundamental reason for wanting to work for Mr. McMahon the character is simple, you are far more likely to remain in a job with Mr. McMahon or get one back if you lose it. This is for a number of reasons, all of which I will explore here in more detail, but essentially, the character is the lesser of two evils, and I shall prove that now.

Consitency of character

Both characters have a lack of predictibility to a certain degree, but Mr McMahon is at least consistent in the short term with what he is doing. When Mr. McMahon is evil, he is evil it is as simple as that. Austin knew what he was going to do each week, and was rarely outsmarted by McMahon. On the other hand, Vince will say one thing and do another. One needn't look much further than the Montreal Screwjob to see that Vince gives with one hand and stabs with the other.

Grudges, or the lack thereof

Most wrestlers have been on the wrong side of the Mr. McMahon character at some point or another, but Mr. McMahon is willing to let them back into his trusted circle at a later date. WrestleMania X-7 is a classic example of this, with the way he gave Austin the win, something unimaginable just two years previously.

On the other hand, get on the wrong side of Mr. McMahon and your done for, which means that unless you are on good terms with Jeff Jarrett, you are out of decent working oppurtunities. The number of former WCW talent who are nowhere to be seen is a telltale sign of this, as is the absence of Randy Savage in most WWE programming revues. Seriously, that guy helped build the company, and now he's not even worthy of most DVDs. Vince McMahon holds a grudge, and given that most of us make mistakes, that isn't something that I find appealing in a boss.

Unemployment

Mr. McMahon has fired a lot of people in his time, loads in fact, but most of them are back on WWE programming very quickly, those that are still off WWE programming are very low in number, Eric Bischoff isthe only one I can think of off the top of my head. Vince McMahon has fired somewhat more people than that in the last year alone, and very few of them will ever get their jobs back.

Fairness

You might think that this is against me here, after all Mr McMahon stacks the odds against his opponents all of the time, doesn't he? Not necessarily, but it is true that he had his favourites. However, he made it clear who they were, and he stuck with them, at least for the short term. With Vince, this isn't the case. Almost every single wrestler no longer with the company says that Vince said things to wrestlers faces, and would privately say different and plan different things. This kind of vindictive attitude isn't a pleasant one to work under, at least you know where you stand with Mr McMahon.

Business decisions

Mr McMahon the character runs WWE, something that has been a success under his tenure. In kayfabe terms, he has mostly acheived what he set out to, giving Orton a pasting for example. He succesfully brought down the invasion, which was the biggest kayfabe threat to his company. Vince McMahon is a success, but he has also overseen steaming turds like the XFL and WBF, I'd rather work for a successful man.

I'll open the debate to my opponent at this point, and respond accordingly.

 

[SavageTaker]

Before I present to the judges why I think it would be better to work for Vince McMahon, the man, I would like to wish good luck to my opponent and I hope we can have a great debate. I’ve never debated my opponent in anything whatsoever, so this should be fun.

Now my mission is to convince not only the judges, but also the people reading this thread, why it would be better to work for Vince McMahon the man over Mr. McMahon the character.

Mr. McMahon has gained the most popularity as the heel boss, but why is that? Is it because he just looks like the type of the guy you want to hate? Or maybe because of the way someone may think he is? Well, if you guess either one of those then you are completely incorrect. The reason why Mr. McMahon has gained the most popularity and has been universally known as a heel is because of the things he will do. Now, you may be thinking, what exactly is SavageTaker speaking of? Well let me explain why working for Mr. McMahon wouldn’t be a good thing.

Mr. McMahon, the character, can embarrass anyone that works for him at any point if he ever feels like doing so.

Mr. McMahon has embarrassed his employees in the past, and he will certainly do it again at some point. Who actually wants to be embarrassed in front of millions and millions of fans watching from home and the thousands in attendance? I know I wouldn’t and that’s my first reason why I would much rather work for Vince McMahon the man over Mr. McMahon the man who embarrasses his employees, no matter who they are. He honestly doesn’t care who you are, but for further prove please take a look at this two videos:
Mr. McMahon, the character, embarrassed Eric Bischoff by throwing him in a garbage truck. Is that not enough to prove that Mr. McMahon will embarrass anyone if he ever feels like it? Well than take a look at this video:
Mr. McMahon forced Mick Foley to kiss his ass…even though he was one of the biggest stars that Vince had during the 90’s. This just further proves that Mr. McMahon is willing to do anything as long as long as it’s going to embarrass someone. In this case he threatened for fire Melina, which also further proves that Mr. McMahon is very manipulative and is willing to do whatever it takes as long as he gets what he wants. Is this not enough prove that anyone can be embarrassed my Mr. McMahon no matter who they are?

That was reason number one, now let’s move on to reason number two on why I would much rather work for Vince McMahon, the man and not the character.

If he (Mr. McMahon) ever feels like firing you, in kayfabe, he will do it.

After months of losing, Conway appeared on the January 1, 2007 edition of Raw. Conway proceeded to make a New Year's resolution and vowed that he would not lose another match and if he did he would quit Raw. His opponent was the Intercontinental Champion Jeff Hardy, but he was pinned after 21 seconds.[28] After the match, WWE Chairman Vince McMahon entered the ring and fired him.

This right here proves that Mr. McMahon is willing to fire anyone at anytime if he feels like doing so. According to storyline, Rob Conway was frustrated over not being able to pull out a win in any of his matches so he promised that the next time he lost he would quit Raw. What happened once he lost that next match after his promise? No…he did not quit. Instead of him quitting Raw, Mr. McMahon decided to just fire him. He felt like firing him so he decided to fire Rob Conway. But it’s not just limited to guys like Rob Conway, if Mr. McMahon feels like firing anyone he will. Honestly, who wants to feel like they could be fired at anytime? This is another of the perks in working for Vince McMahon the man, you know that he won’t fire you at anytime and in the process embarrass you since Mr. McMahon, the character, will more than likely do it publicly.

My third and final reason why I would rather work for Vince McMahon, the man, is because Mr. McMahon, the character, is known to hold grudges against people. Admittedly, Vince McMahon also has had grudges against people and apparently still has some of those. However, the difference is that the grudges that he holds in kayfabe against people are very well known by the majority of fans. The grudges Vince McMahon holds aren’t as well known by the majority of fans because they haven’t been made obvious on TV.

Anyways, some of the grudges held by Mr. McMahon include holding grudges against Degeneration- X for example and Randy Orton, and there are more. He holds or has held grudges against DX because of all of the things they have done to him which include sticking his head up The Big Shows ass and that’s only one thing they’ve done, there are many more. As far as Randy Orton, he holds a grudge with him because of the things that he has not only done to him but his family also. Who would want to work for an evil boss that will hold grudges against his employees? I know I wouldn’t and that’s my third reason why I would prefer working for Vince McMahon the man, because it is less likely that he will hold a grudge against you.

In summation, working for Vince McMahon the man is a better option because with the Mr. McMahon character he can embarrass you at anytime, he can fire you whenever he feels like it, and because he is known to hold grudges against his wrestlers. While on the flip side, the Vince McMahon character is nothing like the Mr. McMahon character he plays. He isn’t known for having constantly embarrassed people backstage like the Mr. McMahon character has done. Also, he doesn’t just fire people on the spot like the Mr. McMahon character has done and because although he does hold grudges against people, the grudges Vince McMahon holds aren’t as known as the ones that Mr. McMahon has held.

 

[Tastycles]

Ladies and Gentlemen, probably just gentlemen, we continue. I have already shown that the consistency and general attitude of Mr. McMahon makes him a better boss than his real alter ego, and here I hope to make a few additional points as well as countering those points made by my opponent.

Double standards

Mr. McMahon has always been a character that you can get along with if you play by his rules. Steve Austin was able to become McMahon's ally when he started playing by his rules, and he is far from McMahon's ideal companion. Eric Bischoff played by his rules, and when he stopped doing so, McMahon fired him.

McMahon is willing to let anyone and everyone have a chance as long as they play by his rules, and it is the same rules for everyone. When his son in law HHH crosses McMahon, McMahon punishes him like he punished Austin, when somebody like Mankind, who is not his kind of people is nice to him, McMahon embraces them like he does his children. You know where you stand with Mr. McMahon.

Vince McMahon has his favourites and he sticks with them, to a degree of ridiculousness. Terry "It's Rhyno not Rhino" Gerin has an argument with his wife in a hotel and Vince fires him. JBL spends 10 years being a vindictive and hateful bully backstage, and he's pushed to the moon. You do not know where you stand with Vince McMahon.

Favouritism of family members

This point is linked to the last, but it is important enough to warrant inclusion. Mr. McMahon has no trouble in removing his wife, children or children in law from their positions if they are not performing. When Shane McMahon the referee didn't do what he wanted, he got rid of him. When Stephanie and Shane tried to oust him from power, he beat them and he fired them. If you have a similar position to a McMahon in the WWE, and are better than them at it, Mr McMahon might fire them and let you do it.

It has been often said that Stephanie isn't a very good booker by all accounts, and yet she is still in charge of the Smackdown brand. When she was doing a bad job of being general manager of Smackdown, the on screen Mr McMahon disposed of her. She could take the WWE writing to 2001 WCW levels, and Vince still wouldn't get rid of his little princess.

Rallying the troops

Mr McMahon managed to rally the WWF troops to overcome the invading WCW and ECW alliance, with people that actually hated each other joining forces because McMahon asked them to. They won too, because McMahon outsmarted his rivals ad planted Kurt Angle as a mole on the opposition side. It was a job well done by McMahon, most certainly.

When the company was at war with WCW, he did not manage to rally the troops. They won, but that had more to do with the spectacular failure of WCW, than WWF working together. Mr McMahon was betrayed by only one person during the invasion, but Vince was betrayed by his writers, wrestlers, interviewers, well just about everyone in fact during the Monday Night Wars. Mr McMahon was able to get everyone pulling in the right direction, Vince pushed people to the other side in some instances.

Embarrassment

Having given a few more of my own points, I would like to take this time to address those made by my opponent.

Mr. McMahon has embarrassed his employees in the past, and he will certainly do it again at some point. Who actually wants to be embarrassed in front of millions and millions of fans watching from home and the thousands in attendance? I know I wouldn’t and that’s my first reason why I would much rather work for Vince McMahon the man over Mr. McMahon the man who embarrasses his employees, no matter who they are. He honestly doesn’t care who you are, but for further prove please take a look at this two videos:

Those videos are of Mr. McMahon embarrassing his employees, but there is no way that the levels of ridiculousness that Vince goes to are matched by those of Mr McMahon. Mr McMahon fires people and makes them kiss his arse, that's embarrassing, but they are one night things. Chavo Guerrero has, at the behest of Vince, just spent two months losing to a dwarf. His aunt Vickie was forced to have a hog pen match with a man pretending to be an Italian pretending to be a woman. His uncle Hector was forced to wear a turkeysuit on a PPV watched byt thousands. Those are all far more embarrassing, and with Chavo we can see the longevity of his embarrasment causing.

Mr McMahon has probably fired about 5 people in an embarrassing way, and he has made fewer than 10 people join his club.

These are things that Vince has made grown men do for several months...

Make a man dress in a thong, and pretend to be naked.

Pretend to be a bull.

Be a sex slave

Dress up like a cat.

There are many, many more, but I think this just goes to show that Vince has got embarrassment covered.

Mr. McMahon forced Mick Foley to kiss his ass…even though he was one of the biggest stars that Vince had during the 90’s. This just further proves that Mr. McMahon is willing to do anything as long as long as it’s going to embarrass someone. In this case he threatened for fire Melina, which also further proves that Mr. McMahon is very manipulative and is willing to do whatever it takes as long as he gets what he wants. Is this not enough prove that anyone can be embarrassed my Mr. McMahon no matter who they are?

Vince McMahon was made, unquestionably, by the work of Hulk Hogan, with a supporting cast of Randy Savage and Gene Okerlund. You'd think he'd be greatful to them, seeing as he is a billionaire off the back of their work. He definitely wouldn't embarrass and humiliate them. Would he?


Nobody is above Vince's scorn and embarrassment. Nobody. Even his daughter has been regularly insulted and humiliated on TV.


Firing people

This right here proves that Mr. McMahon is willing to fire anyone at anytime if he feels like doing so. According to storyline, Rob Conway was frustrated over not being able to pull out a win in any of his matches so he promised that the next time he lost he would quit Raw. What happened once he lost that next match after his promise? No…he did not quit. Instead of him quitting Raw, Mr. McMahon decided to just fire him. He felt like firing him so he decided to fire Rob Conway. But it’s not just limited to guys like Rob Conway, if Mr. McMahon feels like firing anyone he will. Honestly, who wants to feel like they could be fired at anytime? This is another of the perks in working for Vince McMahon the man, you know that he won’t fire you at anytime and in the process embarrass you since Mr. McMahon, the character, will more than likely do it publicly.

Firstly, Conway said he was going to go, and McMahon made sure that he did. Fair enough, in my opinion. Secondly, the vast majority of people that Mr. McMahon fires come back. I don't think he has fired anyone in the last two years except for William Regal, who came back two months later. Meanwhile Vince has fired Mike Adamle, Brooke, Lacy Von Erich, Armando Estrada, Mr. Kennedy, Manu, Gavin Spears, Afa Anoa'i, and that's just the people who's real surname ends in A and not including backroom staff. You are far more likely to be fired by Vince than Mr McMahon.

Grudges

My third and final reason why I would rather work for Vince McMahon, the man, is because Mr. McMahon, the character, is known to hold grudges against people. Admittedly, Vince McMahon also has had grudges against people and apparently still has some of those. However, the difference is that the grudges that he holds in kayfabe against people are very well known by the majority of fans. The grudges Vince McMahon holds aren’t as well known by the majority of fans because they haven’t been made obvious on TV.

Anyways, some of the grudges held by Mr. McMahon include holding grudges against Degeneration- X for example and Randy Orton, and there are more. He holds or has held grudges against DX because of all of the things they have done to him which include sticking his head up The Big Shows ass and that’s only one thing they’ve done, there are many more. As far as Randy Orton, he holds a grudge with him because of the things that he has not only done to him but his family also. Who would want to work for an evil boss that will hold grudges against his employees? I know I wouldn’t and that’s my third reason why I would prefer working for Vince McMahon the man, because it is less likely that he will hold a grudge against you.

Mr. McMahon doesn't hold grudges for very long at all. Just a few weeks ago he was teaming with D-X on Raw. That is not the work of someone holding a grudge, that is the work of somebody who leaves the past behind him.

Ask the likes of Ultimate Warrior, Randy Savage even Hulk Hogan, former world champions, and you will see that Vince very much holds onto grudges.

In summation, Vince McMahon is disloyal, and he holds huge grudges and basically isn't an all around good guy. Former employees have spoken of their hatred of him in court and evidently, he isn't a good boss. Mr McMahon, his alledgedly eviler alter ego, has done a hell of a lot more consistant things and he leaves the past behind him. Play by his rules, and your fine, which makes him a far better boss.

 

[SavageTaker]

Double standards

Mr. McMahon has always been a character that you can get along with if you play by his rules. Steve Austin was able to become McMahon's ally when he started playing by his rules, and he is far from McMahon's ideal companion. Eric Bischoff played by his rules, and when he stopped doing so, McMahon fired him.

So in order for someone to be successful to a degree, they have to play by Mr. McMahon’s rules? I don’t see how that’s a good thing when you can still be very successful and get pushed by Vince McMahon without having to play by his rules. As long as you can make him (Vince McMahon) money, you don’t have to play by his rules but you can still be successful.

McMahon is willing to let anyone and everyone have a chance as long as they play by his rules, and it is the same rules for everyone. When his son in law HHH crosses McMahon, McMahon punishes him like he punished Austin, when somebody like Mankind, who is not his kind of people is nice to him, McMahon embraces them like he does his children.

Like I said, with Vince McMahon, you don’t need to play by the rules in order for Vince McMahon to give you a fair opportunity. Take Vince and Warrior for example, they obviously had their problems but Warrior was still pushed, why was that? Because he was able to make Vince’s company money. Another example would be Mick Foley. Although there have been reports throughout the years that Vince wasn’t really a big fan of Foley, he still pushed him and allowed him to hold the top and most prestigious title in company a few times. Neither one of those guys had to play by Vince McMahon’s rules in order to get pushed, so why work for Mr. McMahon if you have to do something you might not want to just in order to stay out of trouble?

You know where you stand with Mr. McMahon.

I disagree. You don’t know where you stand with Mr. McMahon. If there’s anyone you know where you stand with, it’s Vince McMahon. With Mr. McMahon, you never actually know what he is thinking and what he is going to do. One week he could be your best friend but the week after that he could be your worst nightmare. With Vince McMahon, you basically know where you stand at with him all of the time. If he likes you then you know he is probably going to continue liking you. If he doesn’t like you then you know you probably won’t be liked anytime soon.

Just take the original Montreal Screwjob for example; what did Bret Hart do to Mr. McMahon? He thought he knew where he stood with Mr. McMahon, but what does Mr. McMahon the character do? He tells the referee to call for the bell once Hart was in the sharpshooter. I guess it could also be said that you might not know where you stand with Vince McMahon, but I think that most of the times you do know.

Vince McMahon has his favourites and he sticks with them, to a degree of ridiculousness.

This is not always true.

Since when has Jim Ross been his favorite (I'm just using him as an example)? I think the answer would be never. It’s known that Jim is not liked by Vince but Vince McMahon has still kept him around for many years. While on the other hand, Mr. McMahon has publicly embarrassed him many times throughout his career.

So…no, just because you may be one of his favorites, it doesn’t mean that he is only going to stick to those people. You may not be one of Vince McMahon’s favorites but he can still stick with you.

Favouritism of family members

This point is linked to the last, but it is important enough to warrant inclusion. Mr. McMahon has no trouble in removing his wife, children or children in law from their positions if they are not performing. When Shane McMahon the referee didn't do what he wanted, he got rid of him. When Stephanie and Shane tried to oust him from power, he beat them and he fired them. If you have a similar position to a McMahon in the WWE, and are better than them at it, Mr McMahon might fire them and let you do it.

It has been often said that Stephanie isn't a very good booker by all accounts, and yet she is still in charge of the Smackdown brand. When she was doing a bad job of being general manager of Smackdown, the on screen Mr McMahon disposed of her. She could take the WWE writing to 2001 WCW levels, and Vince still wouldn't get rid of his little princess.

Here is the thing though; Vince makes all of the final decision not Stephanie. If Stephanie wants something done, then she tells daddy. If Vince McMahon doesn’t like it then he won’t put it on TV. But if he does then he’ll probably put it out and see how it goes. Stephanie may be the world’s worst booker, but it’s not up to her if something she writes is put on TV or not.

Rallying the troops

Mr McMahon managed to rally the WWF troops to overcome the invading WCW and ECW alliance, with people that actually hated each other joining forces because McMahon asked them to. They won too, because McMahon outsmarted his rivals ad planted Kurt Angle as a mole on the opposition side. It was a job well done by McMahon, most certainly.

When the company was at war with WCW, he did not manage to rally the troops. They won, but that had more to do with the spectacular failure of WCW, than WWF working together. Mr McMahon was betrayed by only one person during the invasion, but Vince was betrayed by his writers, wrestlers, interviewers, well just about everyone in fact during the Monday Night Wars. Mr McMahon was able to get everyone pulling in the right direction, Vince pushed people to the other side in some instances.

I honestly don’t understand what you’re trying to say here. Is it that Mr. McMahon rallied his wrestlers during the Invasion but not during the Monday Night Wars?

Embarrassment
Those videos are of Mr. McMahon embarrassing his employees, but there is no way that the levels of ridiculousness that Vince goes to are matched by those of Mr McMahon. Mr McMahon fires people and makes them kiss his arse, that's embarrassing, but they are one night things. Chavo Guerrero has, at the behest of Vince, just spent two months losing to a dwarf.

I don’t see how Chavo losing to a dwarf is more embarrassing than having someone kiss a grown man’s ass on national television. I’m not denying that what has happened to Chavo is embarrassing, it just isn’t as embarrassing as the examples I gave. Furthermore, most of the things Vince has done aren’t as embarrassing as the things that the Mr. McMahon character has done.

His aunt Vickie was forced to have a hog pen match with a man pretending to be an Italian pretending to be a woman. His uncle Hector was forced to wear a turkeysuit on a PPV watched byt thousands. Those are all far more embarrassing, and with Chavo we can see the longevity of his embarrasment causing.

How exactly are those things more embarrassing than kissing someone’s freaking ass? I honestly don’t see how and it would be nice if you could explain that because I know I would rather wear a turkey suit or wrestle in a hog pen match over putting my lips on another man’s buttocks.

Mr McMahon has probably fired about 5 people in an embarrassing way, and he has made fewer than 10 people join his club.

Quantity doesn’t matter. The fact remains that he will embarrass his employees and he has no problem with doing so.

These are things that Vince has made grown men do for several months...

Let’s see…

Make a man dress in a thong, and pretend to be naked.

Pretend to be a bull.

Be a sex slave

Dress up like a cat.

I won’t deny that any of those gimmicks/characters are embarrassing, but I still don’t see how any of those are as embarrassing as some of the things Mr. McMahon has done…such as the kiss my ass club.

Nobody is above Vince's scorn and embarrassment.

Who said anyone was?

I simply used Mick Foley as an example, but I still believe what he had to do was more embarrassing than Vince McMahon making fun of some of his biggest superstars ever.

Even his daughter has been regularly insulted and humiliated on TV.

[/quote]

I think that we have already established that both Vince and Mr. McMahon are willing to embarrass their employees; however one of them do things that are more embarrassing and that one would be Mr. McMahon.

Firing people



Firstly, Conway said he was going to go, and McMahon made sure that he did. Fair enough, in my opinion.

Fair enough. But it still doesn’t change the fact that Mr. McMahon is willing to fire anyone at any point.

Secondly, the vast majority of people that Mr. McMahon fires come back. I don't think he has fired anyone in the last two years except for William Regal, who came back two months later.

Why are you only limiting this to the last 2 years?

Like I said, the fact remains that Mr. McMahon has absolutely no problems firing most of his employees at any point.

Meanwhile Vince has fired Mike Adamle, Brooke, Lacy Von Erich, Armando Estrada, Mr. Kennedy, Manu, Gavin Spears, Afa Anoa'i, and that's just the people who's real surname ends in A and not including backroom staff. You are far more likely to be fired by Vince than Mr McMahon.

While it may be true that you are more likely to be fired Vince McMahon, you also have to remember that sometimes he has to fire people because of whatever reasons…so it’s not like he is firing people for absolutely no reason. While on the other hand, the Mr. McMahon character can fire anyone for no reason, and he has no problem doing so even if it’s embarrassing to them.

Grudges

Mr. McMahon doesn't hold grudges for very long at all. Just a few weeks ago he was teaming with D-X on Raw. That is not the work of someone holding a grudge, that is the work of somebody who leaves the past behind him.

What happened a couple of years ago with DX and Mr. McMahon? Oh Yeah, that’s right, they constantly humiliated him and as a result he held a grudge against them because of the things they did. He may not be over all of that and has moved on, but it still doesn’t change the fact that he had a grudge against them and is not only them he has had grudges against. There have been other wrestlers such as Randy Orton.

Ask the likes of Ultimate Warrior, Randy Savage even Hulk Hogan, former world champions, and you will see that Vince very much holds onto grudges.

I never said that Vince doesn’t hold grudges against people, although I’ve never heard of him holding any type of grudge against Hogan. Anyways, the difference is that while Vince McMahon may hold grudges, Mr. McMahon does things to those wrestlers while for the most part Vince doesn’t.

In summation, Vince McMahon is disloyal, and he holds huge grudges and basically isn't an all around good guy. Former employees have spoken of their hatred of him in court and evidently, he isn't a good boss. Mr McMahon, his alledgedly eviler alter ego, has done a hell of a lot more consistant things and he leaves the past behind him. Play by his rules, and your fine, which makes him a far better boss.

His alter ego has done a hell of a lot more bad things than Vince McMahon has done. At least with Vince you know that you won’t be as embarrassed by him as you would be by Mr. McMahon. Also, with Vince, you know you’re going to get payed very well and he will take care of his wrestlers.

 

[Tastycles]

As previously, I shall begin with a few new points, before addressing those of my opponent.

Interference

The Mr. McMahon character exists still in WWE programming, and he has some input in the bigger decisions on Raw and Smackdown. He is currently saying that Teddy Long is on probabtion, but yet he is allowing Long to make his own decisions to improve his work. On the other hand, there is Vince McMahon who has made two colour commentators leave Smackdown in the past year because of huis constant telling them how to do their job. You don't see Mr. McMahon shouting at the wrestlers how to do their job on screen, but Vince is apparently shouting at his qualified broadcasters.

Teamwork

Jesus, Churchill, Mr. McMahon, what do they all have in common? They all used people in lower positions than themselves in an advisory and helpful role. Stalin, Bears and Vince McMahon run the show how they want it done, they don't allow anyone else to have input. Need I say more?

Yes, because that was facaetious. In all seriousness, Vince McMahon doesn't listen to his employees, he pushes people the way he wants to and he rarely listens to the advice of his subordinates. Mr. McMahon at his most pompous often listened to the advice of his associates Pat Patterson and Gerald Brisco.

Worker morale

Lots of people have walked out on the WWE because of things Vince has or hasn't done and promises he has broken. Very few people have quit on screen. People are either fired, lose retirement matches, or just retire through age. Nobody has ever been forced to quit by Mr. McMahon, something that plenty of people have done by Vince.

Double Standards and unreliability

I shall now offer my rebuttal to the comments of my opponent.

So in order for someone to be successful to a degree, they have to play by Mr. McMahon’s rules? I don’t see how that’s a good thing when you can still be very successful and get pushed by Vince McMahon without having to play by his rules. As long as you can make him (Vince McMahon) money, you don’t have to play by his rules but you can still be successful.

Generally, with any boss, you have to play by their rules. Vince McMahon is even more of a stickler for this than anybody else. Mr. Kennedy was making more money for the company when he left than he was 3 years ago, yet he argued with one of Vince's chosen ones and was fired.

How about the Ultimate Warrior, fired when he asked for more money, despite being the most over person in the company following Hogan's hiatus? If you don't play by Vince's rules you are out on your arse, usually embarrassed first. Just look at what happened to Kendrick last month.

Like I said, with Vince McMahon, you don’t need to play by the rules in order for Vince McMahon to give you a fair opportunity. Take Vince and Warrior for example, they obviously had their problems but Warrior was still pushed, why was that?

Warrior did do what Vince wanted. When he didn't he got fired. Three times. Don't rewrite history. Austin and DX weren't fired by Mr. McMahon despite doing everything he could to annoy him, because he let his actions doing his talking. Savage made money for years and years, but he crossed McMahon once and he is still frozen out.

Because he was able to make Vince’s company money. Another example would be Mick Foley. Although there have been reports throughout the years that Vince wasn’t really a big fan of Foley, he still pushed him and allowed him to hold the top and most prestigious title in company a few times.

But Foley played by all of McMahon's word. He had no drug issues, he never missed a show, he willingly put himself in danger for the company and was innovative in his character, how exactly is that not playing by the rules?

Neither one of those guys had to play by Vince McMahon’s rules in order to get pushed, so why work for Mr. McMahon if you have to do something you might not want to just in order to stay out of trouble?

Both of those guys played by his rules. When one of them didn't he was sacked, when the other one got a different job, Vince's meddling forced him to quit.

I disagree. You don’t know where you stand with Mr. McMahon. If there’s anyone you know where you stand with, it’s Vince McMahon. With Mr. McMahon, you never actually know what he is thinking and what he is going to do. One week he could be your best friend but the week after that he could be your worst nightmare. With Vince McMahon, you basically know where you stand at with him all of the time. If he likes you then you know he is probably going to continue liking you. If he doesn’t like you then you know you probably won’t be liked anytime soon.

According to just about every wrestler no longer in WWE, this isn't the case. Bad News Brown was promised that he would be the first black World Champion, but instead he was not given a single run with any title. That is lies and broken promises, and when someone lies and breaks promises, you don't know where you stand with them.

Just take the original Montreal Screwjob for example; what did Bret Hart do to Mr. McMahon? He thought he knew where he stood with Mr. McMahon, but what does Mr. McMahon the character do? He tells the referee to call for the bell once Hart was in the sharpshooter. I guess it could also be said that you might not know where you stand with Vince McMahon, but I think that most of the times you do know.

That was the real Vince McMahon that did that to him. Mr. McMahon wasn't born as an onscreen character at that point. Vince told Bret he was going to win that match and then he didn't. That is not storyline Mr. McMahon being evil, that is Vince McMahon proving my point for me.

This is not always true.

Since when has Jim Ross been his favorite (I'm just using him as an example)? I think the answer would be never. It’s known that Jim is not liked by Vince but Vince McMahon has still kept him around for many years. While on the other hand, Mr. McMahon has publicly embarrassed him many times throughout his career.

So the man that Vince made head of talent relations, has had as his principal commentator for almost 15 years and the man who he has put in the hall of fame isn't his favourite commentator. When WCW went under he could have replaced Ross with a score of people, but didn't because he likes him. Likes him so much he has made him train future commentators. Ross has never said he has troubles with JR.

Mr. McMahon doesn't like him, and has embarrassed him, but that is irrelevant. Triple H's title regins, HBK ending Flair's career, Orton not being fired despite being a grade A ********, nobody from WCW being pushed, these are all reasons that prove Vince has his favourite and sticks with them. Mr.McMahon has been The Rock's enemy and ally, Austin's enemy and ally, HHH's enemy and ally, in other words, he picks who he perceives to be the right man for the job, which is a good quality, and certainly better than the keep it in the family attitude of McMahon.

So…no, just because you may be one of his favorites, it doesn’t mean that he is only going to stick to those people. You may not be one of Vince McMahon’s favorites but he can still stick with you.

No, he fires people he doesn't like or that don't play by his rules, as I have shown countless times.

Family favouritism

Here is the thing though; Vince makes all of the final decision not Stephanie. If Stephanie wants something done, then she tells daddy. If Vince McMahon doesn’t like it then he won’t put it on TV. But if he does then he’ll probably put it out and see how it goes. Stephanie may be the world’s worst booker, but it’s not up to her if something she writes is put on TV or not.

So the fact that he uses his family as puppets is somehow better than actually giving them a job? That means, that rather than needing to be related to Vince to get a decent job, you have to actually be Vince. That's even worse, in my opinion.

Rallying the troops

I honestly don’t understand what you’re trying to say here. Is it that Mr. McMahon rallied his wrestlers during the Invasion but not during the Monday Night Wars?

It's that Mr. McMahon the character was much better at rallying the troops in the Invasion than Vince McMahon the man was at rallying them during the Monday Night Wars. One significant person defected from WWF to the Alliance in kayfabe, how many defected to WCW in real life in the 7 years previous? At least 10.

I don’t see how Chavo losing to a dwarf is more embarrassing than having someone kiss a grown man’s ass on national television. I’m not denying that what has happened to Chavo is embarrassing, it just isn’t as embarrassing as the examples I gave. Furthermore, most of the things Vince has done aren’t as embarrassing as the things that the Mr. McMahon character has done.

Embarrassment

Because kissing a grown man's arse takes like a second and is over. Chavo has had to wear stupid costumes and get beaten up by a dwarf for over two months. That is continous embarrassing behaviour.

How exactly are those things more embarrassing than kissing someone’s freaking ass? I honestly don’t see how and it would be nice if you could explain that because I know I would rather wear a turkey suit or wrestle in a hog pen match over putting my lips on another man’s buttocks.

But its a single act that he has done like 7 times to 7 different people. Things like that are much more common, and the embarrassment is much more long term. Nobody's job has been to kiss a man on the arse, it has been someones job to pretend to be a bull for several months at Vince's behest.

Quantity doesn’t matter. The fact remains that he will embarrass his employees and he has no problem with doing so.

Neither does Vince, only Vince does it more often and for longer than Mr. McMahon, meaning you're more ikely to be embarrassed by Vince.

Let’s see…

I won’t deny that any of those gimmicks/characters are embarrassing, but I still don’t see how any of those are as embarrassing as some of the things Mr. McMahon has done…such as the kiss my ass club.

You have one example of Mr. McMahon being embarrassing that you keep reverting to, I am giving literally ten times the amount of embarrassing things Vince has done to people, without even scratching the surface.

Who said anyone was?

Nobody. You said that nobody was above Mr. McMahon's embarrassment, I was merely pointing out that this is true of Vince too.

I simply used Mick Foley as an example, but I still believe what he had to do was more embarrassing than Vince McMahon making fun of some of his biggest superstars ever.

I think that we have already established that both Vince and Mr. McMahon are willing to embarrass their employees; however one of them do things that are more embarrassing and that one would be Mr. McMahon.

YOu have established that Mr. McMahon does one thing that is embarrassing rarely, where as Vince does more things more often. That is the consensus that we have reached. I'd rather spend a second being humiliated than my whole career, thanks.

Firings

Fair enough. But it still doesn’t change the fact that Mr. McMahon is willing to fire anyone at any point.

Why are you only limiting this to the last 2 years?

Because if I didn't limit it to two years, I'd have had to type out loads more names, and you'd be even more wrong. I was doing you a favour.

Like I said, the fact remains that Mr. McMahon has absolutely no problems firing most of his employees at any point.

And Vince doesn't?! He's fired 4 since Monday!

While it may be true that you are more likely to be fired Vince McMahon, you also have to remember that sometimes he has to fire people because of whatever reasons…so it’s not like he is firing people for absolutely no reason. While on the other hand, the Mr. McMahon character can fire anyone for no reason, and he has no problem doing so even if it’s embarrassing to them.

In his mind, Mr McMahon always has a reason. And there are plenty of people who are fired for no reason what so ever. I'm pretty sure Deuce and Domino weren't shooting up heroin whilst spit roasting Cherry, they were just released because Vince had no use for them. Nobody is above being fired by Vince for no reason. Look at Bobby Lashley for a classic example.

Grudges

What happened a couple of years ago with DX and Mr. McMahon? Oh Yeah, that’s right, they constantly humiliated him and as a result he held a grudge against them because of the things they did. He may not be over all of that and has moved on, but it still doesn’t change the fact that he had a grudge against them and is not only them he has had grudges against. There have been other wrestlers such as Randy Orton.

He had a grudge over them two years ago and now he has buried the hatchet. Vince had an argument with Randy Savage in 1994, and he is still freezing him out. There's absolutely no way whatsoever you can say that Mr. McMahon holds a longer grudge than Vince. There is zero precedent. Mr. McMahon has never had a grudge over 2 or 3 years long, that is emphatically not true of Vince.

I never said that Vince doesn’t hold grudges against people, although I’ve never heard of him holding any type of grudge against Hogan. Anyways, the difference is that while Vince McMahon may hold grudges, Mr. McMahon does things to those wrestlers while for the most part Vince doesn’t.

That's why Hogan hasn't been a guest host. But, I digress, Vince regularly bashed Hogan and Savage for years after they left, that's doing something. Keeping Savage off computer games so he doesn't get money, that's doing something. Vince does plenty to the people he has grudges against.

His alter ego has done a hell of a lot more bad things than Vince McMahon has done. At least with Vince you know that you won’t be as embarrassed by him as you would be by Mr. McMahon. Also, with Vince, you know you’re going to get payed very well and he will take care of his wrestlers.

I have shown that you are more likely to be fired, embarrassed, held down, and black balled by Vince than you are by Mr. McMahon, and therefore that Mr. McMahon would be a much better boss.

 

[Mr. TM]

This is one of my favourite topics that I have thought up. Kind of out there.

Clarity of debate- 1 point
Beautiful layout Tasty. Here is a point.

Punctuality- 1 point
Unfortunately I have to give this point to Tastycles, because ST was late getting a closing post in.

Informative- 1 point
Tastycles, you brought a TON of information forward, you easily get this point.

Emotionality- 1 point
Tasty showed great emotion here, but I think ST has brought forth his greatest emotion yet in a debate. ST gets this point, and a congrats from me.

Persuasion- 1 point
I thought that working for Vince, however scary that might be, would be worse than working for McMahon. However, after reading this, I believe it be the other way around, and I would much rather work for Mr. McMahon. Tastycles gets this point.

TM rates this 4 points Tastycles to 1 points ST.

 

[Blade]

Clarity of debate: Tastycles. The post were done perfectly, in my opinion. Everything was well said.

Punctuality: ST late, Tastycles gets the points.

Informative: Tastycles. The reminder of past gimmicks, the videos, and the use of known backstage issues in WWE. Awesome.

Emotionality: ST. You showed some good compassion for the people who were screwed over by Mr. Mcmahon.

Persuasion: Sorry ST, but Tastycles stole this debate. You put up a good fight, but I think Tastycles' arguments were practically flawless. He takes the last point.

Tastycles 4 ST 1

 

[CH David]

Clarity: Tasty had great layouts for each post. Well done.

Point: Tastycles

Punctuality: See TM's post.

Point: Tastycles

Informative: Tastycles brought a very good amount of information, and it wasn't an overabundance.

Point: Tastycles

Emotionality: ST always brings a nice fire and passion for each of his debates, and like always, he didn't disappoint.

Point: SavageTaker

Persuasion: Tastycles pretty much hi-jacked this debate from the beginning. ST is a fighter, but Tastycles just overpowered him.

Point: Tastycles

CH David scores this Tastycles 4, SavageTaker 1.

 

[Miko]

Clarity: A good showing from Tasty as usual

Point: Tastycles

Punctuality: See the other posts

Point: Tastycles

Informative: Tastycles had alot of key points here

Point: Tastycles

Emotionality: ST is doing well on the emotionality points from me, he gets another here

Point: SavageTaker

Persuasion: Sorry ST, but Tastycles arguments were the better today

Point: Tastycles

At the risk of fitting in

SavageTaker - 1
Tastycles - 4

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

Clarity Of Debate - Both debaters presented clear opening arguments.

Point: Split

Punctuality - Read what TM wrote.

Point: Tastycles

Informative - Both debaters brought in a lot of information.

Point: Split

Emotionality - SavageTaker gets the point here. Usually, when he's aggressive, it's a bluff. But, this wasn't the case here.

Point: SavageTaker

Persuasion - I'm splitting the point here as well. Good job, guys.

Point: Split

tdigle's Score

Tastycles - 2.5
SavageTaker - 2.5