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Week 1: Phoenix -versus- fromthesouth
- Thread starter Mr. TM
- Start date
FromTheSouth
You don't want it with me.
Every wrestler leaves a mark on the promotion he works for. At some point, he did something memorable that will be remembered fondly when someone thinks of that company. The true greats, however, leave a legacy. Ric Flair left quite a legacy on all the companies he worked in. Hulk Hogan left a giant legacy. When someone thinks of women's wrestling in the last 15 years in the WWE, they think Trish Stratus.
True the WWE has had many beautiful women, Torrie Wilson, Stacy Kiebler, etc. The WWE has also had some very talented workers, like Beth Phoenix, Victoria, and Lita. Lita is an interesting case, as she came in as a great athlete, but was tucked away as a valet, not getting to show her full set of skills at first. All that is for naught though, as no diva combined athletic skill with beauty, and a certain charm like Trish Stratus.
When Trish came into the WWE, she was a fitness model, and used as a valet for Test and Albert. T&A were a successful tag team, and during a feud with the Dudleys, Trish intorduced herself to the world by generally, just fucking with Bubba Dudley. Eventually, after flying through a table, Trish had introduced herself as the bitch you hated to love. Her sexy demeanor made you feel like you could put up with her attitude.
Her past as a fitness model meant that she was athletic enough to learn to wrestle. It was some time before she became a serious wrestler, but in no time she could hold her own in the ring, several times with the men. While Lita was the superior spot artist, Trish just told a better story. When Lita was in a match you would get excited for some of her moves, but with Trish, the connection was there, and the audience cared about everything she did. She was compelling, and Lita existed only as her foil.
An examination of their stories in the WWE shows which athlete Vince felt was superior. Trish's biggest roles involved superstars like Y2J, while Lita was relegated to up and comers, like the Hardy's and eventually Edge. While Lita was certainly not bad at anything, and even excellent at times, Trish was just more high profile. Go no further that their escapades. Lita married Kane, Trish got Vince. By sheer writing alone, Trish was more memorable, and that leaves a bugger legacy.
Trish used those more important stories to get more important matches. Trish's seven title reigns rank higher than anyone else in the history of the title. While Lita has an impressive four reigns, none of them are memorable. Trish's feud with Victoria was the pinnacle of women's wrestling in the major companies. Both athletes showed a wide variety of skills and moves. Both women gave extreme effort, and out on great matches. Lita, is a spot monkey.
In the WWE, it is Vince who makes the Legacy. A wrestler can have all the ability in the world, but Vince is the star maker, and he chose Trish. Lita was an important role player in the company, managing the Hardy's, and even being the object of desire in one very hot feud between Matt Hardy and Edge, but not even that, her crowing moment can eclipse Trish. The angle with Vince was memorable, and well acted. Her improvement in the ring was very fast, and the difference between her skills at the beginning and at the end was immeasurable. I would say that she was superior to Lita in the ring by the time they left. It doesn't matter though, because as a package, none of the Diva's can hold a candle to Trish, who was anmed Diva of the Decade, IN THE FIRST HALF OF THE DECADE!!!! Vince new he made a star, and wasn't ashamed to show it.
Finally, Trish got her own TV show, whereas no one has heard from Lita. She has a band that tours and makes money, but once again, that is a step below Trish's Travel Channel Show. Lita was great, but Trish was better, more valuable, the bigger star, and will leave the bigger legacy.
True the WWE has had many beautiful women, Torrie Wilson, Stacy Kiebler, etc. The WWE has also had some very talented workers, like Beth Phoenix, Victoria, and Lita. Lita is an interesting case, as she came in as a great athlete, but was tucked away as a valet, not getting to show her full set of skills at first. All that is for naught though, as no diva combined athletic skill with beauty, and a certain charm like Trish Stratus.
When Trish came into the WWE, she was a fitness model, and used as a valet for Test and Albert. T&A were a successful tag team, and during a feud with the Dudleys, Trish intorduced herself to the world by generally, just fucking with Bubba Dudley. Eventually, after flying through a table, Trish had introduced herself as the bitch you hated to love. Her sexy demeanor made you feel like you could put up with her attitude.
Her past as a fitness model meant that she was athletic enough to learn to wrestle. It was some time before she became a serious wrestler, but in no time she could hold her own in the ring, several times with the men. While Lita was the superior spot artist, Trish just told a better story. When Lita was in a match you would get excited for some of her moves, but with Trish, the connection was there, and the audience cared about everything she did. She was compelling, and Lita existed only as her foil.
An examination of their stories in the WWE shows which athlete Vince felt was superior. Trish's biggest roles involved superstars like Y2J, while Lita was relegated to up and comers, like the Hardy's and eventually Edge. While Lita was certainly not bad at anything, and even excellent at times, Trish was just more high profile. Go no further that their escapades. Lita married Kane, Trish got Vince. By sheer writing alone, Trish was more memorable, and that leaves a bugger legacy.
Trish used those more important stories to get more important matches. Trish's seven title reigns rank higher than anyone else in the history of the title. While Lita has an impressive four reigns, none of them are memorable. Trish's feud with Victoria was the pinnacle of women's wrestling in the major companies. Both athletes showed a wide variety of skills and moves. Both women gave extreme effort, and out on great matches. Lita, is a spot monkey.
In the WWE, it is Vince who makes the Legacy. A wrestler can have all the ability in the world, but Vince is the star maker, and he chose Trish. Lita was an important role player in the company, managing the Hardy's, and even being the object of desire in one very hot feud between Matt Hardy and Edge, but not even that, her crowing moment can eclipse Trish. The angle with Vince was memorable, and well acted. Her improvement in the ring was very fast, and the difference between her skills at the beginning and at the end was immeasurable. I would say that she was superior to Lita in the ring by the time they left. It doesn't matter though, because as a package, none of the Diva's can hold a candle to Trish, who was anmed Diva of the Decade, IN THE FIRST HALF OF THE DECADE!!!! Vince new he made a star, and wasn't ashamed to show it.
Finally, Trish got her own TV show, whereas no one has heard from Lita. She has a band that tours and makes money, but once again, that is a step below Trish's Travel Channel Show. Lita was great, but Trish was better, more valuable, the bigger star, and will leave the bigger legacy.
A good and sound opening Mr. FTS. But where it's easy to point out Trish Stratus, her popularity is based on having a Hulkamaniac push and a Ric Flair amount of Women's Title. But where she won the championship 7 times, she lost it another 6. I know that's not the best opening phrase as the debate is not regarding their title reigns as much as it should be. Lita never had that many titles because she didnt need them as much as Trish did to get her over.
Now where Trish first started as a valet, so did Lita, but back in the days of ECW, it was there where she didn't want to be held back for being just a pretty girl who gets stared at. But she took it to the next level and was trained by Dory Funk Jr. who was the man that made Lita, literally. He was the one who gave the WWE a tape of her moves and that set the move forward towards the legacy of Lita.
Now Lita was a new breed of female wrestling, she was the first female in WWE to be about aerial abilities, speed and providing some high spot entertainment for the fans. Until Lita's arrival in the year 2000, the women's devision was composed of strength (Jacqueline), super strength that was only allowed to be used against men (Chyna), the beautiful and the brave (Sable, who was the original mode for Trish Stratus) and the eye candy (Debra, Tori). Until then, mostly women's wrestling was about being strong and beautiful, but Lita was a diva with attitude and she fitted in perfectly with her unique charisma and fast pace with moves, yes it could be considered a spot monkey title, but Lita was unique and Trish was able to perfect out a role that Sable managed to do before her. If you look at their styles and feuds, most of Trishs work was already done by Sable.
Where Trish had to wait for nearly 2 years to receive her first title reign, Lita won hers before her first year in the WWE was out. And this title win was quite memorable because she beat the Billion Dollar Princess, Stephanie McMahon and The Rock was the special referee. How big a push could you ask for? Getting a title win through a rub off The Rock and the McMahons, possibly the highest honour that sets up a championship run and showed how over she was for her unique ring style, best Trish had at that time was having Triple H on top of her in a 69 position on one episode of Raw after an intergender tag match! When Trish feuded with Stephanie McMahon, the match will only be remembered for wet t-shirts and getting beaten down by William Regal. But where Trish was linking up with Vince at the time, it never did much as she was degraded to the lowest form by being made to strip and walk on all fours like a dog! When in Lita's career did she ever do that? Lita was used and Trish was abused during 2000-01, it wasnt until she was paired up with Lita who put her over and made her watchable enough to be able to even have her first ever title, after that Trish was on her way, but Lita was responsible for that.
Where Trish was memorable for what she did for womens wrestling, Lita was the one who bridged the gap between intergender wrestling, she was in a feud with Dean Malenko and actually beat him when he was Light-Heavyweight Champion! But whenever it comes to intergender wrestling, all the matches where Team Extreme were involved, Lita was the only female involved in these matches, Trish was only ever booked in matches where she faced another female and male, because she wasnt able to compete in a way Lita does. Lita is the only female wrestler involved in TLC matches and she was the first female to compete in a cage match with Victoria, now thats quite a feat given Victoria and Trish feuded so much that they never got to this stage, but Lita and Victoria did!
You argue that Chris Jericho was one of the highest that Trish got a rub off, as I said earlier Lita got a brief rub off of The Rock when she won her first title. But you forget that when Jericho and Trish were involved, the story also included Lita and Christian, it wasnt just Trish getting the rub off of this, but Lita as well. Where that feud continued about Trish, Lita was focused on the womens division so it didnt suffer from lack of competition.
Unfortunately for Lita, one of her made two problems that affected her career was injuries, she was out for 18 months when Trish took the reigns that Lita had layed down, but she always kept coming back and while Trish never got injured, it was because she protected from competing in the big and dangerous matches but also Lita took more risk in her ring work, as Trish even described during her feud with Lita that she "had to practically kill herself, just to beat me", now that puts Lita over in a big way because she risked her body a lot more than Trish did just to keep the fans entertained.
Towards the end of her career, she was returning back to a manager role to minimise her injuries until her final months because of her risk taking. But she was involved in big roles and pushed some of the male stars further and the biggest role she did in that role was the Love Triangle of 2005. Where this greatly benefitted Hardy and Edge, Lita was the one who self-sacrificed herself to make this possible. WWE did one thing in giving Matt his 3:16 moment and further pushed Edge to the ultimate heel, but Lita was brilliant in pushing this feud further and she was the one who MADE Edge and Hardy into the watchable thing at the time, yes it was WWE milking onto a personal situation, but Lita sacrificed a lot to push them further, where Matt messed it up later on, Edge took full advantage and become WWE Champion shortly after.
Yes, it can be argued that Edge was due for a push before this, but it was Lita who gave Edge the Rated R factor and made him the heel we love today, hell, she was part of the most watch Raw segment in recent times with the live sex celebration, now did Trish ever reach viewing figures of that peak with a story she was involved in? No, she was involved before this major story and they managed to use Lita to give Trish her big farewell at Unforgiven 2006. In the end, Lita gave up her career to give Trish that big farewell and even helped Mickie James further in her last match.
Currently today, no-one has been a Lita clone because Lita is one of a kind, there will always be Trish clones because she was a clone of Sable and now Mickie James/Maryse is a clone of that. Lita has better legacy because she did things to wrestling that Trish never did and because after Lita went, there was no other excitement for womens wrestling and no-one can do what Lita did. While anyone could take over Trishs title reigns, Trish was fortunate to be around at a time where womens wrestling was at its peak because of the things Lita did, Trish would have never got over had it not been for Lita, Trish needed Lita to make into the star today.
While a lot of things will be tarnished for the Love Triangle for Lita, her legacy is going to be remembered for the matter that she bridged intergender wrestling to its closest point in 2000/01 and also self-sacrificing her career to give pushes to the big main event stars of today. Lita made Edge have that final it factor to become the star he is now, prior to this, Edge would have been a one off champion and been lost in the ranks. Lita was selfless in benefitting both womens wrestling and pushing the men further because she determined and a great worker for the WWE, she didnt need the title as much to make her special as Trish did because Lita is a worker for the company and sacrificed her body, her career and even her reputation just give the womens division that one extra special touch. She made Trish Stratus into the watchable female prior to her first title win because Lita was the watchable element and she helped Trish achieve that before Trish could do the rest she did.
In short Lita did a lot for the company, but she is the one female wrestler who made Trish Stratus and Edge become the watchable and memorable elements of WWE, Trishs legacy only benefits herself, Litas benefitted the company, womens wrestling and other wrestlers, a legacy that is very selfless more than anything.
Now where Trish first started as a valet, so did Lita, but back in the days of ECW, it was there where she didn't want to be held back for being just a pretty girl who gets stared at. But she took it to the next level and was trained by Dory Funk Jr. who was the man that made Lita, literally. He was the one who gave the WWE a tape of her moves and that set the move forward towards the legacy of Lita.
Now Lita was a new breed of female wrestling, she was the first female in WWE to be about aerial abilities, speed and providing some high spot entertainment for the fans. Until Lita's arrival in the year 2000, the women's devision was composed of strength (Jacqueline), super strength that was only allowed to be used against men (Chyna), the beautiful and the brave (Sable, who was the original mode for Trish Stratus) and the eye candy (Debra, Tori). Until then, mostly women's wrestling was about being strong and beautiful, but Lita was a diva with attitude and she fitted in perfectly with her unique charisma and fast pace with moves, yes it could be considered a spot monkey title, but Lita was unique and Trish was able to perfect out a role that Sable managed to do before her. If you look at their styles and feuds, most of Trishs work was already done by Sable.
Where Trish had to wait for nearly 2 years to receive her first title reign, Lita won hers before her first year in the WWE was out. And this title win was quite memorable because she beat the Billion Dollar Princess, Stephanie McMahon and The Rock was the special referee. How big a push could you ask for? Getting a title win through a rub off The Rock and the McMahons, possibly the highest honour that sets up a championship run and showed how over she was for her unique ring style, best Trish had at that time was having Triple H on top of her in a 69 position on one episode of Raw after an intergender tag match! When Trish feuded with Stephanie McMahon, the match will only be remembered for wet t-shirts and getting beaten down by William Regal. But where Trish was linking up with Vince at the time, it never did much as she was degraded to the lowest form by being made to strip and walk on all fours like a dog! When in Lita's career did she ever do that? Lita was used and Trish was abused during 2000-01, it wasnt until she was paired up with Lita who put her over and made her watchable enough to be able to even have her first ever title, after that Trish was on her way, but Lita was responsible for that.
Where Trish was memorable for what she did for womens wrestling, Lita was the one who bridged the gap between intergender wrestling, she was in a feud with Dean Malenko and actually beat him when he was Light-Heavyweight Champion! But whenever it comes to intergender wrestling, all the matches where Team Extreme were involved, Lita was the only female involved in these matches, Trish was only ever booked in matches where she faced another female and male, because she wasnt able to compete in a way Lita does. Lita is the only female wrestler involved in TLC matches and she was the first female to compete in a cage match with Victoria, now thats quite a feat given Victoria and Trish feuded so much that they never got to this stage, but Lita and Victoria did!
You argue that Chris Jericho was one of the highest that Trish got a rub off, as I said earlier Lita got a brief rub off of The Rock when she won her first title. But you forget that when Jericho and Trish were involved, the story also included Lita and Christian, it wasnt just Trish getting the rub off of this, but Lita as well. Where that feud continued about Trish, Lita was focused on the womens division so it didnt suffer from lack of competition.
Unfortunately for Lita, one of her made two problems that affected her career was injuries, she was out for 18 months when Trish took the reigns that Lita had layed down, but she always kept coming back and while Trish never got injured, it was because she protected from competing in the big and dangerous matches but also Lita took more risk in her ring work, as Trish even described during her feud with Lita that she "had to practically kill herself, just to beat me", now that puts Lita over in a big way because she risked her body a lot more than Trish did just to keep the fans entertained.
Towards the end of her career, she was returning back to a manager role to minimise her injuries until her final months because of her risk taking. But she was involved in big roles and pushed some of the male stars further and the biggest role she did in that role was the Love Triangle of 2005. Where this greatly benefitted Hardy and Edge, Lita was the one who self-sacrificed herself to make this possible. WWE did one thing in giving Matt his 3:16 moment and further pushed Edge to the ultimate heel, but Lita was brilliant in pushing this feud further and she was the one who MADE Edge and Hardy into the watchable thing at the time, yes it was WWE milking onto a personal situation, but Lita sacrificed a lot to push them further, where Matt messed it up later on, Edge took full advantage and become WWE Champion shortly after.
Yes, it can be argued that Edge was due for a push before this, but it was Lita who gave Edge the Rated R factor and made him the heel we love today, hell, she was part of the most watch Raw segment in recent times with the live sex celebration, now did Trish ever reach viewing figures of that peak with a story she was involved in? No, she was involved before this major story and they managed to use Lita to give Trish her big farewell at Unforgiven 2006. In the end, Lita gave up her career to give Trish that big farewell and even helped Mickie James further in her last match.
Currently today, no-one has been a Lita clone because Lita is one of a kind, there will always be Trish clones because she was a clone of Sable and now Mickie James/Maryse is a clone of that. Lita has better legacy because she did things to wrestling that Trish never did and because after Lita went, there was no other excitement for womens wrestling and no-one can do what Lita did. While anyone could take over Trishs title reigns, Trish was fortunate to be around at a time where womens wrestling was at its peak because of the things Lita did, Trish would have never got over had it not been for Lita, Trish needed Lita to make into the star today.
While a lot of things will be tarnished for the Love Triangle for Lita, her legacy is going to be remembered for the matter that she bridged intergender wrestling to its closest point in 2000/01 and also self-sacrificing her career to give pushes to the big main event stars of today. Lita made Edge have that final it factor to become the star he is now, prior to this, Edge would have been a one off champion and been lost in the ranks. Lita was selfless in benefitting both womens wrestling and pushing the men further because she determined and a great worker for the WWE, she didnt need the title as much to make her special as Trish did because Lita is a worker for the company and sacrificed her body, her career and even her reputation just give the womens division that one extra special touch. She made Trish Stratus into the watchable female prior to her first title win because Lita was the watchable element and she helped Trish achieve that before Trish could do the rest she did.
In short Lita did a lot for the company, but she is the one female wrestler who made Trish Stratus and Edge become the watchable and memorable elements of WWE, Trishs legacy only benefits herself, Litas benefitted the company, womens wrestling and other wrestlers, a legacy that is very selfless more than anything.
FromTheSouth
You don't want it with me.
A good and sound opening Mr. FTS. But where it's easy to point out Trish Stratus, her popularity is based on having a Hulkamaniac push and a Ric Flair amount of Women's Title.
But, it's what she did with that push that makes her remarkable.
But where she won the championship 7 times, she lost it another 6. I know that's not the best opening phrase as the debate is not regarding their title reigns as much as it should be. Lita never had that many titles because she didn’t need them as much as Trish did to get her over.
But the difference here is that the title was used to get Lita over, ut Trish was used to get the title over. Before Trish ever had a reign, she was already over as hell for slapping Mr. McMahon in the face. The title meant nothing for a long long time. Once it got on Trish Stratus, the title started getting actual stories and promo time. It got, dare I say it, important, whereas before and after Trish, it was/is filler.
Now where Trish first started as a valet, so did Lita, but back in the days of ECW, it was there where she didn't want to be held back for being just a pretty girl who gets stared at. But she took it to the next level and was trained by Dory Funk Jr. who was the man that made Lita, literally. He was the one who gave the WWE a tape of her moves and that set the move forward towards the legacy of Lita.
Then he should have taught her how to tell a story in the ring. My problem with Lita is that, while her flips are exciting, they don't tell a story. She wouldn't even really sell for the Undertaker during that mini-feud with the Hardys.
Now Lita was a new breed of female wrestling, she was the first female in WWE to be about aerial abilities, speed and providing some high spot entertainment for the fans.
She didn't bring any selling, ring psychology, or story telling. She wasn't nearly as charismatic at Trish either. Trish just had a better connection with the fans, and that is where a Legacy is made.
Until Lita's arrival in the year 2000, the women's devision was composed of strength (Jacqueline), super strength that was only allowed to be used against men (Chyna), the beautiful and the brave (Sable, who was the original mode for Trish Stratus) and the eye candy (Debra, Tori). Until then, mostly women's wrestling was about being strong and beautiful, but Lita was a diva with attitude and she fitted in perfectly with her unique charisma and fast pace with moves, yes it could be considered a spot monkey title, but Lita was unique and Trish was able to perfect out a role that Sable managed to do before her. If you look at their styles and feuds, most of Trish’s work was already done by Sable.
But once again, even if you want to call her a Sable clone, Trish added wrestling ability. Rena Mero did not have the package that Trish did, so Trish, with her athleticism, was/is the prototype for divas for the rest of time. WWE is constantly trying to find pretty girls who have the desire to be good in the ring. Look at the divas now, Kelly Kelly has vastly improved in the ring, Eve Torres has vastly improved in the ring. These two girls were brought in to dance and look good, but now both are serviceable in a match, and I would even go on to say that Eve is good. The WWE just doesn't bring in high spot divas. The closest they have is Gail Kim, and she was fired once, and only brought back because she got over in TNA. What is she doing now? Nothing. The Trish clones get TV time every week, and the Lita clone gets nothing but third billing on the face team. This is another sure sign of Trish's legacy. Good or bad, the wrestlers that follow Trish Stratus' path are bound for more fame and a higher profile, while those that follow Lita's path are bound for a second rate promotion in Orlando.
Where Trish had to wait for nearly 2 years to receive her first title reign, Lita won hers before her first year in the WWE was out. And this title win was quite memorable because she beat the Billion Dollar Princess, Stephanie McMahon and The Rock was the special referee.
This is my point though. Lita's stories are with Stephanie, while Trish gets stories with Vince. It's a matter of degrees, and when comparing Trish and Lita, Trish wins every category by just a little bit. They're like Edge and Christian. They're both great, but Edge is a legend and Christian is a solid player who does a great job in his role. Michael Jordan and Horace Grant, if you will.
How big a push could you ask for?
I don't know....dating Vince McMahon, getting embarrassed by the whole McMahon family, slapping Vince in the face to turn face, and then getting the title soon after. Lita got like two promos in her feud with Stephanie.
Getting a title win through a rub off The Rock and the McMahons,
The Rock was there to lend his personality to Stephanie McMahon. Lita just happened to be the beneficiary. Which do you remember more, The Rock's feud with Stephanie McMahon, or his alliance with Lita? He was brought in to screw Steph, not to help Lita. Lita was an innocent bystander.
possibly the highest honour that sets up a championship run and showed how over she was for her unique ring style,
I can't deny that Lita was over or talented, but once again, degrees. Trish was more over, and by the time she left, more talented.
best Trish had at that time was having Triple H on top of her in a 69 position on one episode of Raw after an intergender tag match! When Trish feuded with Stephanie McMahon, the match will only be remembered for wet t-shirts and getting beaten down by William Regal. But where Trish was linking up with Vince at the time, it never did much as she was degraded to the lowest form by being made to strip and walk on all fours like a dog!
It all set up a face turn that got a reaction like no other turn by a woman. When Lita picked Edge over Matt, her heat faded so fast. People cheered during the live sex celebration because Edge was so cool. Nothing Lita could have done would have created enough of a reaction. Trish could get whatever reaction she wanted.
When in Lita's career did she ever do that?
Live sex celebration ring a bell? Trish may have had to do things, but Lita was forced to do "it" on the air, with her ex watching. That is way more degrading. It makes her look like a **** and a bitch. Besides, this proves my point to a T. Trish and Lita went in opposite directions. When they left the WWE, Trish was at the top of her game, after starting at the bottom. Lita was fading away and unimportant to the show, after starting off as an innovative, exciting diva. You can't leave the bigger legacy in the WWE by fading in importance over time.
Lita was used and Trish was abused during 2000-01, it wasn’t until she was paired up with Lita who put her over and made her watchable enough to be able to even have her first ever title, after that Trish was on her way, but Lita was responsible for that.
Lita didn't put Trish over. Trish got over because of Vince McMahon.
Where Trish was memorable for what she did for women’s wrestling, Lita was the one who bridged the gap between intergender wrestling, she was in a feud with Dean Malenko and actually beat him when he was Light-Heavyweight Champion! But whenever it comes to intergender wrestling, all the matches where Team Extreme were involved, Lita was the only female involved in these matches, Trish was only ever booked in matches where she faced another female and male, because she wasn’t able to compete in a way Lita does.
But that wasn't memorable, nor does it leave a legacy. If Lita was leaving a legacy, at all, there would still be intergender matches with one girl involved. But, let's look at Trish's history with the boys. Trish's first bump was through a table courtesy of the Dudleys. In all the time that Lita was involved with Hardys and the Hardys with the Dudleys, did Lita ever take that bump? No. Trish was also hardcore champion, a men's title. Trish held her own just fine with the boys. There are not. Lita's "legacy" is that they do nothing anymore that they did when she was around. To leave a legacy, there need to be a lasting influence. There are no wrestlers with Lita's style or story lines. The girls that are left are Trish clones. The entire WWE Women's division is the legacy of Trish Stratus.
Lita is the only female wrestler involved in TLC matches and she was the first female to compete in a cage match with Victoria, now that’s quite a feat given Victoria and Trish feuded so much that they never got to this stage, but Lita and Victoria did!
Once again, I am not denying Lita's talent. But, if she left a bigger legacy than Trish, wouldn't there be a trace of her left in the WWE? I mean, once again, all the girls are like Trish. Her legacy is apparent. What is Lita's legacy? There are no signs, not even trace.
You argue that Chris Jericho was one of the highest that Trish got a rub off, as I said earlier Lita got a brief rub off of The Rock when she won her first title.
The Rock was only there for McMahon. Lita, once again, just kinda there.
But you forget that when Jericho and Trish were involved, the story also included Lita and Christian, it wasn’t just Trish getting the rub off of this, but Lita as well. Where that feud continued about Trish, Lita was focused on the women’s division so it didn’t suffer from lack of competition.
But once again, Trish was attached to the first undisputed champion of the world, while Lita was attached to Christian. It was all about degrees. Vince is the starmaker, and if you compare booking decision for booking decision and creative storyline for creative storyline, Trish always got the better of the deal. Vince wanted Trish to be the bigger star, he made her the bigger star, and keeps her legacy alive by trying to catch her magic again and again in today's divas, while Lita gets a pat on the back and a "good job." Lita was never the star Trish was, and didn't leave any legacy at all in the WWE, whereas, you can see Trish's legacy every time there is a women's match.
Unfortunately for Lita, one of her made two problems that affected her career was injuries, she was out for 18 months when Trish took the reigns that Lita had layed down, but she always kept coming back and while Trish never got injured,
Trish had to surrender the title twice because of injuries. One was an ankle in 2003 and I think a shoulder in 2004. She also competed with a broken hand. Trish ahd her fair share of injuries, but it was Lita's style that led her to be injured. If nothing else, Lita's legacy is that no divas are high fliers because Lita got hurt too much. Her injuries prevented her from having a legacy.
it was because she protected from competing in the big and dangerous matches but also Lita took more risk in her ring work, as Trish even described during her feud with Lita that she "had to practically kill herself, just to beat me", now that puts Lita over in a big way because she risked her body a lot more than Trish did just to keep the fans entertained.
But we're debating their legacies, and where is it apparent that Lita's legacy was made here? You just told me how Trish put Lita over with nothing more than a one sentence statement. That sounds like starmaking power, which is another sign of a legacy. Everything Trish touched turned into gold, everything Lita touched turned to Vickie Guerrero.
Towards the end of her career, she was returning back to a manager role to minimise her injuries until her final months because of her risk taking. But she was involved in big roles and pushed some of the male stars further and the biggest role she did in that role was the Love Triangle of 2005. Where this greatly benefitted Hardy and Edge, Lita was the one who self-sacrificed herself to make this possible.
So Trish barking like a dog is degrading, but Lita having sex in the middle of the ring is self-sacrifice? It can't go both ways. Besides, that is a step down for Lita, as she came into wrestle, and wound up a sex object. Trish came in a sex object, and left a serious wrestler. Once again, when legacy building, it's good to not take a step down at the end of your career. People keep telling Brett Favre to retire because he's ruining his legacy.
WWE did one thing in giving Matt his “3:16 moment” and further pushed Edge to the ultimate heel, but Lita was brilliant in pushing this feud further and she was the one who MADE Edge and Hardy into the watchable thing at the time,
Edge and Matt were always watchable. Trish made Test and Albert watchable her first day with the company. Now that is an accomplishment. Trish maintained Vince's immense contempt from the crowd during a Stone Cold absence. That is far more impressive than anything Lita did.
yes it was WWE milking onto a personal situation, but Lita sacrificed a lot to push them further, where Matt messed it up later on, Edge took full advantage and become WWE Champion shortly after.
But, once again, it was Lita taking a step down from being a wrestler. I would argue that that fued was good for Matt, good for Edge, and bad for Lita.
Yes, it can be argued that Edge was due for a push before this, but it was Lita who gave Edge the Rated R factor and made him the heel we love today, hell, she was part of the most watch Raw segment in recent times with the live sex celebration, now did Trish ever reach viewing figures of that peak with a story she was involved in? No, she was involved before this major story and they managed to use Lita to give Trish her big farewell at Unforgiven 2006. In the end, Lita gave up her career to give Trish that big farewell and even helped Mickie James further in her last match.
But once again, Lita is nothing more than a sacrificial lamb. Your own arguments argue against Lita even having a legacy, much less a bigger legacy than Trish. According to you, Lita's legacy is everyone's stepping stone, while Trish's legacy is being the diva that all current and future diva's strive to be. It seems pretty simple to me to determine who has the bigger legacy.
Currently today, no-one has been a Lita clone because Lita is one of a kind, there will always be Trish clones because she was a clone of Sable and now Mickie James/Maryse is a clone of that.
You're wrong here. Sable never learned how to wrestle. She was horrid in the ring. Trish worked hard, and became great. This is her legacy. She would not be pigeonholed into being an object. We got to watch her improvement week by week. Now, look at Eve and Kelly. They started off as dancers, then unwatchable wrestlers, and now, both of them aren't as bad in the ring, and both get featured in wrestling matches, while someone like Maria is in charge of fluffing Dolph Ziggler. And while we see Trish's legacy, Lita's is nowhere to be found.
Lita has better legacy because she did things to wrestling that Trish never did and because after Lita went, there was no other excitement for women’s wrestling and no-one can do what Lita did.
There is no denying that Lita was impressive in the ring. But if she had left a legacy, there would still be women doing what she does, and there just isn't a single one.
While anyone could take over Trish’s title reigns, Trish was fortunate to be around at a time where women’s wrestling was at its peak because of the things Lita did, Trish would have never got over had it not been for Lita, Trish needed Lita to make into the star today.
Trish needed Lita no more than Lita needed Trish. I would argue that Lita's fame is based on rub from the Hardy's and rub from Trish.
While a lot of things will be tarnished for the Love Triangle for Lita, her legacy is going to be remembered for the matter that she bridged intergender wrestling to its closest point in 2000/01
Are you sure Lita bridged the intergender gap better than anyone, like, oh, I don't know, former intercontinental champion Chyna? Lita's legacy is always being second best.
and also self-sacrificing her career to give pushes to the big main event stars of today.
You can't sacrifice your career and leave a legacy. Only Jesus can do that. She was there to be the foil for Trish. Who left a bigger legacy, Batman or Joker? Of course it's Batman, and Trish always got top billing.
Lita made Edge have that final it factor to become the star he is now, prior to this, Edge would have been a one off champion and been lost in the ranks. Lita was selfless in benefitting both women’s wrestling and pushing the men further because she determined and a great worker for the WWE, she didn’t need the title as much to make her special as Trish did because Lita is a worker for the company and sacrificed her body, her career and even her reputation just give the women’s division that one extra special touch. She made Trish Stratus into the watchable female prior to her first title win because Lita was the watchable element and she helped Trish achieve that before Trish could do the rest she did.
This was an impassioned argument. But without getting emotional, answer me this....how many Luchagores songs have you heard on the radio? And, how many TV shows has Lita hosted? The answer to both is zero. Trish had greater fame, which is how one leaves a legacy. You get famous, do well at something, and others try to emulate you. Divas today try to emulate Trish, while none of them try to emulate Lita.
In short Lita did a lot for the company,
Agreed, but not as much as Trish.
but she is the one female wrestler who made Trish Stratus and Edge become the watchable and memorable elements of WWE, Trish’s legacy only benefits herself,
Edge is not Lita's legacy. Neither is Jeff hardy. Being associated with someone for a short time is not the legacy building exercise you think it is. She took steps down in her career. Her professional peak was early on in her career, and as her career advanced she became eye candy. Trish went the other way, and left at her peak.
Lita’s benefited the company, women’s wrestling and other wrestlers, a legacy that is very selfless more than anything.
OK, so we finally have a legacy for Lita. Lita's legacy is giving of herself. And while that is memorable, it also makes her a side note in WWE history. Trish's legacy is apparent every time you see diva's on TV. The Michelle McCool's and Mickie James and Beth Phoenix character are all because of Trish Stratus. No one emulates Lita's character or career.
This debate was narrowed down to which wrestler left the bigger legacy. When examining the girls' legacies, there are striking differences. Trish is the template for all of women's wrestling. Lita's entire career was spent as second (or third or fourth) banana in a feud. Trish was a star, Lita was a role player. Both were good, Trish was better. Both had good stories, Trish's were more important. Everything Trish did was just a little better or more important than Lita, and this is how Trish built and left a bigger legacy than Lita.
But the difference here is that the title was used to get Lita over, ut Trish was used to get the title over. Before Trish ever had a reign, she was already over as hell for slapping Mr. McMahon in the face. The title meant nothing for a long long time. Once it got on Trish Stratus, the title started getting actual stories and promo time. It got, dare I say it, important, whereas before and after Trish, it was/is filler.
The title not being important before Trish having it? There were on and off stories going on for at least 2 years before Trish won the title. You had Jaqueline/Sable (98), Ivory/Tori (99) and even having Stephanie McMahon holding the title making it have some importance during the McMahon-Helmsley, Lita winning the title was showing that the title and women's wrestling had evolved from being underused to being used. Lita's win put her and the title over.
Then he should have taught her how to tell a story in the ring. My problem with Lita is that, while her flips are exciting, they don't tell a story. She wouldn't even really sell for the Undertaker during that mini-feud with the Hardys.
That's more of a creative fault and without sounding too sexist, women have not been the best at selling moves, even Triple H has had his moments of non-selling!
She didn't bring any selling, ring psychology, or story telling. She wasn't nearly as charismatic at Trish either. Trish just had a better connection with the fans, and that is where a Legacy is made.
Again, as stated, creative were never finely tuned with what the story telling or ring psychology was to the divas. But saying Lita had a strong connection with the fans, people would cheer when she signalled a twist of fate and went for a moonsault. When Trish won her first title, fans were more over for Lita than any of the other comeptitors, her win was an upset to the fans, but they accepted it because of where they were taking the Hardys and Team Extreme the night after.
But once again, even if you want to call her a Sable clone, Trish added wrestling ability. Rena Mero did not have the package that Trish did, so Trish, with her athleticism, was/is the prototype for divas for the rest of time. WWE is constantly trying to find pretty girls who have the desire to be good in the ring. Look at the divas now, Kelly Kelly has vastly improved in the ring, Eve Torres has vastly improved in the ring. These two girls were brought in to dance and look good, but now both are serviceable in a match, and I would even go on to say that Eve is good. The WWE just doesn't bring in high spot divas. The closest they have is Gail Kim, and she was fired once, and only brought back because she got over in TNA. What is she doing now? Nothing. The Trish clones get TV time every week, and the Lita clone gets nothing but third billing on the face team. This is another sure sign of Trish's legacy. Good or bad, the wrestlers that follow Trish Stratus' path are bound for more fame and a higher profile, while those that follow Lita's path are bound for a second rate promotion in Orlando.
But yet the Trish clones of today are part of a current diva system that nobody watches as much as they use to, even the swimsuit tag match a few weeks ago failed to pull figures in, people actually turned off it. When Trish AND Lita both left, people lost interest, but these Trish clones, while they may be athletic, they're part of a system that is dying down and people are caring less because they don't hold an ounce to the divas of then. Yet TNA's Knockout division gets praised because of how they book the women, in some cases, even better than the men. While TNA might not be as watchable in my eyes, the fact that their women's division, containing Lita clones gets more credit than a WWE roster of Trish clones, it shows that being a clone of Trish is not as appealing as it use to be.
I don't know....dating Vince McMahon, getting embarrassed by the whole McMahon family, slapping Vince in the face to turn face, and then getting the title soon after. Lita got like two promos in her feud with Stephanie.
Yet the more memorable moment was Linda McMahon kicking Vince in the crown jewels. This was more about Vince having complete control of the WWE and having the power to do anything, this was to set up everything for his feud with Shane, Trish was only selected because she was the only diva who could this with a realistic feel, the other divas were too good for this and Lita was holding her own much like the rest of the division.
When Trish turned after dumping the McMahons, she did nothing for most of a year except leech onto Lita's success. Lita was challenging for the title still months before Trish even had a shot. The next notable thing Trish did was win a Bra and Panties tag match WITH Lita during the Invasion. Lita was still more over than Trish was until a year later when Trish was the Champion and Lita was involved in the Hardys feud with Undertaker.
The Rock was there to lend his personality to Stephanie McMahon. Lita just happened to be the beneficiary. Which do you remember more, The Rock's feud with Stephanie McMahon, or his alliance with Lita? He was brought in to screw Steph, not to help Lita. Lita was an innocent bystander.
Much like Trish was during the 2001 McMahon feud, it was about Shane and Vince and the ownership of WCW, much like Lita, Trish was a beneficiary after a derogatory because she happened to be there when Linda, Foley and Shane all beat on Vince.
I can't deny that Lita was over or talented, but once again, degrees. Trish was more over, and by the time she left, more talented.
Because Lita was busy being involved with Edge's feud with Cena, she was playing the heel and a damn good one too. Possibly the best manager role seen in recent times, putting Edge more over because she was benefitting factor of what was happening to Edge at the time. But also Trish would be more talented when leaving than entering, she entered with nothing and Lita entered with more and was popular because she had something and remained a constant, Trish was eye candy to start with and fortunate to evolve her ring work to make her more credible.
Live sex celebration ring a bell? Trish may have had to do things, but Lita was forced to do "it" on the air, with her ex watching. That is way more degrading. It makes her look like a **** and a bitch. Besides, this proves my point to a T. Trish and Lita went in opposite directions. When they left the WWE, Trish was at the top of her game, after starting at the bottom. Lita was fading away and unimportant to the show, after starting off as an innovative, exciting diva. You can't leave the bigger legacy in the WWE by fading in importance over time.
Lita was never forced to do anything, she played her role because she was being a professional. The fact is people tuned in to see it because while it made Edge cool, it was still the fact that Lita played a big enough role in Edge's push to make this possible. Lita wasn't fading away, she was choosing to retire because the fans took a personal issue in her life and made it there own, she didn't want to go out in a blaze of glory, she was doing her job and put Mickie over, she could have still been big but she was going out as a heel and went because she felt her job was done, not the WWE letting her be unimportant, she was involved the biggest main event feud of 2006!
Lita didn't put Trish over. Trish got over because of Vince McMahon.
Yet did nothing with it until she was teaming up with Lita a number of months later, Lita gave her that extra bit needed.
Trish was also hardcore champion, a men's title. Trish held her own just fine with the boys. There are not. Lita's "legacy" is that they do nothing anymore that they did when she was around. To leave a legacy, there need to be a lasting influence. There are no wrestlers with Lita's style or story lines. The girls that are left are Trish clones. The entire WWE Women's division is the legacy of Trish Stratus.
So did one of the Godfather's Hos, Molly Holly and Terri before her, all of them pinning Crash Holly! That's nothing special tbh, she just did what 3 other women did before her and lost it on the same night. As said earlier, a division that people complain alot about and watch less of, showing that basing the entire division on one diva was a bad idea.
Once again, I am not denying Lita's talent. But, if she left a bigger legacy than Trish, wouldn't there be a trace of her left in the WWE? I mean, once again, all the girls are like Trish. Her legacy is apparent. What is Lita's legacy? There are no signs, not even trace.
No, she has signs of a legacy, it's just people would assume to think Trish Status first because like Hogan, Hart, Austin & Cena, that name was pushed ahead. But when thinking deeper people remember Lita for boosting the division and making it entertaining. It's like saying Undertaker's only legacy is a winning streak at Wrestlemania when he's done so much more as a company man, this is exactly the same because of Lita, not to be confused with saying Lita's done the exact same thing as the Undertaker, because that's not true, but what Lita did is a small sample.
The Rock was only there for McMahon. Lita, once again, just kinda there.
Much like Trish in the McMahon feud.
But once again, Trish was attached to the first undisputed champion of the world, while Lita was attached to Christian. It was all about degrees. Vince is the starmaker, and if you compare booking decision for booking decision and creative storyline for creative storyline, Trish always got the better of the deal. Vince wanted Trish to be the bigger star, he made her the bigger star, and keeps her legacy alive by trying to catch her magic again and again in today's divas, while Lita gets a pat on the back and a "good job." Lita was never the star Trish was, and didn't leave any legacy at all in the WWE, whereas, you can see Trish's legacy every time there is a women's match.
Yet people credit Jericho for what he's achieved more after that Undisputed Championship, alot of people choose to forget that reign because it was forgettable, it's only mentioned every now and then because it's not as important to Jericho these days, much like when he was doing a story with Trish in 2004. This was a point where Jericho and Christian were over with the crowd and they did make neither Christian or Lita lower than Jericho or Trish, it was all on equal ground which led to that Battle of the Sexes Match.
I'm not going to repeat myself for a third time about the current divas division, because it is a joke, even Trish Stratus agreed on it, so she's not holding onto that legacy too well.
Trish had to surrender the title twice because of injuries. One was an ankle in 2003 and I think a shoulder in 2004. She also competed with a broken hand. Trish ahd her fair share of injuries, but it was Lita's style that led her to be injured. If nothing else, Lita's legacy is that no divas are high fliers because Lita got hurt too much. Her injuries prevented her from having a legacy.
A fact that I will agree, that Lita didn't get to fill out her Legacy to the maximum because of that 18 month injury. But the fact she still continued after that layoff and still made an impact shows how much of an important person she was to the WWE. Most injury comebacks (excluding Taker/HBK, etc) aren't in welcome arms. People still wanted Lita around and she kept around when they could even went injured. She got a warm reception and was already going for the title straight after 18 months, alot of comebacks don't have that priveledge.
Everything Trish touched turned into gold, everything Lita touched turned to Vickie Guerrero.
Excuse me! But that's abit harsh to say Lita's touch led to Vickie Guerrero, that's complete opposites of the spectum there. Lita's touch was special because she was there when Edge was in three of his biggest feuds that cemented his place in the Main Event stage, Lita didn't actually bring any of that down but added more excitement because she had the heel role played out to perfection. You say Trish's touch turn to gold, kissing Viscera was that?!
So Trish barking like a dog is degrading, but Lita having sex in the middle of the ring is self-sacrifice? It can't go both ways. Besides, that is a step down for Lita, as she came into wrestle, and wound up a sex object. Trish came in a sex object, and left a serious wrestler. Once again, when legacy building, it's good to not take a step down at the end of your career. People keep telling Brett Favre to retire because he's ruining his legacy.
The live sex celeration wasn't a self-sacrifice no, it was pushing her and Edge's heel role to the maximum needed to show Edge was here to stay. Trish's dog barking was degrading, but the live sex celebration wasn't played in a degrading manner, it was like Edge just plucked Lita out of nowhere and forced her to do anything she didn't want to do, she was adding spice to Edge as the Rated R Superstar.
Edge and Matt were always watchable. Trish made Test and Albert watchable her first day with the company. Now that is an accomplishment. Trish maintained Vince's immense contempt from the crowd during a Stone Cold absence. That is far more impressive than anything Lita did.
Because Trish was eye candy, that's why T&A were watching, Test was already watchable prior to that. While Edge and Matt were watchable prior to 2005, the Love Triangle made them watchable as Main Event Players, something that their TLC matches didn't do, but Lita did because of how she played her role in this feud. Essentially, if Lita never slept with Edge, Matt wouldn't have been as over as he was and Edge wouldn't be taken on a Main Event heel!
But, once again, it was Lita taking a step down from being a wrestler. I would argue that that fued was good for Matt, good for Edge, and bad for Lita.
That's the price of scarificing your own career for the sake of a story, but Lita still did it.
But once again, Lita is nothing more than a sacrificial lamb. Your own arguments argue against Lita even having a legacy, much less a bigger legacy than Trish. According to you, Lita's legacy is everyone's stepping stone, while Trish's legacy is being the diva that all current and future diva's strive to be. It seems pretty simple to me to determine who has the bigger legacy.
Only because it's easier to emulate Trish's role in wrestling, if it hadn't been Trish, it would have been someone else. Lita's role was taking women's wrestling to the stage that made it possible for women like Trish, Maryse and Kelly Kelly to be taken seriously as competitors. Lita produced a new breed of diva, Trish was revamped product of Lita's work.
A number of legacies aren't just defined by being fan favourite like Hulk Hogan or ring experts like Bret Hart. A number of wrestlers are remembered for what they did to benefit their company and wrestling as stepping stones. Undertaker has been a stepping stone for getting a number of guys over on numerous occasions outside of his streak and match specialties, Kane would be another and the Big Show.
There is no denying that Lita was impressive in the ring. But if she had left a legacy, there would still be women doing what she does, and there just isn't a single one.
You said they were mostly featured in Gail Kim or TNA, where Gail Kim isn't the best example because she isn't that great a wrestler, the fact that some people are unique enough to try and be like Lita shows how they value her for, the reason why the Divas division in the WWE fails is because everyone is being a sheep and no-one is being unique. If someone like Maryse or Mickie James continue to get further pushes, I bet they would be more remembered than Trish because it's easy to pinpoint her because of her 7 title reigns, when many people nowadays have agreed that titles mean nothing anymore.
Trish needed Lita no more than Lita needed Trish. I would argue that Lita's fame is based on rub from the Hardy's and rub from Trish.
Trish still wouldn't have got over had she not feuded and teamed up with Lita in 2000/01. Lita had achieved her fame through the Hardys yes, but it was Trish who was established through Lita, not the other way around.
Are you sure Lita bridged the intergender gap better than anyone, like, oh, I don't know, former intercontinental champion Chyna? Lita's legacy is always being second best.
I did say that Chyna was the main bridge because she only competed with men! Lita was the first compete with both. Chyna was then forced to compete in women's wrestling and she left. Lita was second best after Chyna in the gender gap issue, but Lita was taken more seriously because she was more of a woman in people's eyes than Chyna. Not even Chyna in playboy changed that for Chyna.
You can't sacrifice your career and leave a legacy. Only Jesus can do that. She was there to be the foil for Trish. Who left a bigger legacy, Batman or Joker? Of course it's Batman, and Trish always got top billing.
Well because it's Batman's comic! But Joker is dubbed as the greatest villain of all time! But wrestlers have to scarifice their career in order to leave a legacy, people question Sting still going but Ric Flair scarificed his career and what a legacy he left, no matter how reluctant he was to do so.
This was an impassioned argument. But without getting emotional, answer me this....how many Luchagores songs have you heard on the radio? And, how many TV shows has Lita hosted? The answer to both is zero. Trish had greater fame, which is how one leaves a legacy. You get famous, do well at something, and others try to emulate you. Divas today try to emulate Trish, while none of them try to emulate Lita.
Given that most of the non-international American bands get low coverage in Britain, it's going to be zero. Trish has better fame because she wants to stay in the spotlight, Lita wanted to distance herself for her music career. Yet people still talk about Lita, regardless of how unsuccessful or unheard her band is, people still talk about Trish because she wants to stay in the spotlight. Being talked about when you're out of spotlight shows that's a better legacy because they remember you despite having other people still hanging around in the spotlight. Lita isn't cashing in the fame of wrestling to push her singing career and Trish even tries to distance herself from the Divas division at times because it's a joke of a division.
Agreed, but not as much as Trish.
What did Trish do that was more? 7 World Title reigns? She lost it 6 times. Had some on-screen fiasco with Vince McMahon? Something all valet divas do at one point. Lita took part in bigger matches and was remembered for a unqiue ring style, while not many emulate her because she's that unique, Mickie James has the same impact as Trish nowadays because it's that easy to make that form of diva and it was happening before Trish with the likes of the Fabulous Moolah! Trish didn't define women's wrestling, she was the product of being something done before her, but at a time when it was being elevated due to Lita being involved as part of the new wave, making women's wrestling more about the athletic ability than the looks.
Trish had to evolve herself because of what Lita did, had she not, her legacy would be nothing, Lita never had to try and match Trish because she was the one who led to Trish being made. Trish did what was done before her, she was fortunate to be recent with it. Had it been a time where Lita was not out for 18 months, she would have had more title reigns to be valued more than most people give her. But the fact is Lita's legacy still remains regardless of the injuries, love triangles and low profile life she's taken.
Remember the Raw 15th Anniversary? If Trish was so big, then how come she didn't return by herself? Because Lita's legacy was just as big as Trish. Whenever you think of either, you have the other, just because Trish had some successes that she did, had it not been for Lita being there, Trish's legacy would never exist.
FromTheSouth
You don't want it with me.
You've heard our arguments. Let me bring this all into one nice little box. The question posed is which wrestler left the bigger legacy. When people think of the WWE Women's Championship in recent years, they think of Trish Stratus. Trish is the one who got invited to do TV shows. Trish is the one who gets to be in magazines, and gets noticed by the paparazzi. Trish is simply more famous.
Furthermore, all of today's female wrestlers are the model type, not high fliers. Who do you see in TNA or WWE getting TV time doing flips? Even the supposedly superior TNA women's division is a bunch of Trish's. If you ask me, TNA's women's division may be a better example of Trish's legacy. The seductive power of Velvet Sky, the smile on Taylor Wilde, the enthusiasm of Kelly Kelly, these are Trish's legacy. Gail Kim is a Lita disciple, but where is she now? She is the throw in on a tag match. Her career mimics Lita's. She came in a house afire, but faded with barely a flame.
Speaking of career progression, look at where Trish was at the beginning compared to the end. She managed a second rate tag team when she came in, and left the greatest and most prolific champion the division has ever seen. Lita came in as a reformer, a revolutionary competitor. But instead of keeping the limelight, her presence became less and less important, until she was reduced to live sex celebrations. Trish grew out of those stunts, and Lita fell into them.
The girls work so much harder today as a result of Trish. Diva search winners and models come into dance and look good. Knowing their time is limited, they learn to become more useful to the company. Did Sable improve? No, and once she wasn't the hottest thing around anymore, she was out the door, and a new generation of girls came in. This group was led by Trish. They strove to get better in the ring. Eve Torres and Kelly Kelly's improvement is a testament to Trish Stratus. These girls understand they have to expand their own roles in the company.
Lita was a great performer, an asset to the company. The problem is that her greatest moments were making Trish look good. Hogan and Savage both left great legacies in the business, and Hogan needed Savage to reach his peak. This is all true, but who left the greater legacy. Ali and Frazier, Magic and Larry, Arnold and Jack, all of these rivalries were intense, and one man always made the other better, but one man also left his footprint just a little deeper in the sand, and in the case of Trish and Lita, without question, it was Trish Stratus.
Furthermore, all of today's female wrestlers are the model type, not high fliers. Who do you see in TNA or WWE getting TV time doing flips? Even the supposedly superior TNA women's division is a bunch of Trish's. If you ask me, TNA's women's division may be a better example of Trish's legacy. The seductive power of Velvet Sky, the smile on Taylor Wilde, the enthusiasm of Kelly Kelly, these are Trish's legacy. Gail Kim is a Lita disciple, but where is she now? She is the throw in on a tag match. Her career mimics Lita's. She came in a house afire, but faded with barely a flame.
Speaking of career progression, look at where Trish was at the beginning compared to the end. She managed a second rate tag team when she came in, and left the greatest and most prolific champion the division has ever seen. Lita came in as a reformer, a revolutionary competitor. But instead of keeping the limelight, her presence became less and less important, until she was reduced to live sex celebrations. Trish grew out of those stunts, and Lita fell into them.
The girls work so much harder today as a result of Trish. Diva search winners and models come into dance and look good. Knowing their time is limited, they learn to become more useful to the company. Did Sable improve? No, and once she wasn't the hottest thing around anymore, she was out the door, and a new generation of girls came in. This group was led by Trish. They strove to get better in the ring. Eve Torres and Kelly Kelly's improvement is a testament to Trish Stratus. These girls understand they have to expand their own roles in the company.
Lita was a great performer, an asset to the company. The problem is that her greatest moments were making Trish look good. Hogan and Savage both left great legacies in the business, and Hogan needed Savage to reach his peak. This is all true, but who left the greater legacy. Ali and Frazier, Magic and Larry, Arnold and Jack, all of these rivalries were intense, and one man always made the other better, but one man also left his footprint just a little deeper in the sand, and in the case of Trish and Lita, without question, it was Trish Stratus.
To sum up on why Lita's legacy is better than Trish Stratus. While fame takes the notice of people like Trish, Hogan, Austin, etc. It's because they are the first thought of due to them being pushed forward to us on a constant and even remain in the spotlight today because in some cases they don't want to leave. But when we think deeper on wrestling, we remember the true gems of wrestling, Randy Savage, Mick Foley and even Lita. These were people that made wrestling popular because they were not the ones seduced by the spotlight of post wrestling fame. Randy Savage does things quietly but with attention, Mick Foley still gives to the world and Lita does a band.
Women in wrestling like Trish Stratus and the divas of today would not have been given the chance they have done had it not been for the likes of Lita taking the big steps to make this all possible. Lita's attributes gave Trish Stratus her title chance and yet when Lita gets injured for 18 months, she is still a treasured piece of the women's division. While her career made have been tarnished at the end because of the Love Triangle, her selfish actions led to a selfless contribution to giving superstars like Edge his Rated R factor and giving women's wrestling a new spice of life that it had never seen before.
It's easy to assume everyone is a spout of Trish Stratus because she's the first thought of name, but yet how many times do we compare current crop of superstars like John Cena to The Rock and Steve Austin, when the claim is far from being either like one another? Women's wrestling is nothing like it was because it has become a joke, it's easy to assume they're like Trish Stratus because WWE and TNA don't truly give the women's division the time nor the effort to provide them at their best, which makes them unwatchable, if that's the result of Trish Stratus' legacy, then she is right to distance herself from it. Lita is a unqiue one of a kind type wrestler, and they're the ones that get remembered more after the hype of glits and glamour of the first wave of "fan favs".
It's easy to assume that Lita fell back to where Trish began, but simply put, Lita did fall on similiar terms as Trish but was in a better position. Where Trish was managing a second rate team, Lita was managing a main event superstar, furthermore a heel, which justifies being "reduced" to live sex celebrations, she was simply doing her job. Had Lita not been out for 18 months, she would have been the one having more world title reigns, but yet even after that long layoff, she was pushed to the title and the fans were still behind her.
Women's wrestling hasn't progressed since the departure of both Trish and Lita, in fact it's fallen back because they believe following a code that anyone can do, but it's become lacklustre and less exciting because only so few who follow Lita's code have been given the true chance. Trish Status didn't lead the new generation, this honour was set up by Lita because had Lita not been there, Trish would have never lasted as long as Sable or Torrie Wilson.
While WWE and TNA have accepted that the women's division needs more athletism than being beauty over brains, it's still not a product that gains interest. Diva matches are now toilet breaks because nothing excites them, something that Lita provided with her matches, where her career winded down, it was because she allowed it, yet where people remember Trish because she's still around in the spotlight, people still remember Lita with a high honour despite being out of the spotlight, that shows that a legacy is not defined because they're still in the spotlight. We still spoke about Ricky Steamboat when he was out of the spotlight, we still speak about Lita. In short, Lita's legacy is a greater one because of what she left still lies waiting to be unleashed again, when the moment it comes, women's wrestling will become more interesting again, where through following Trish, has failed.
Lita's legacy made women's wrestling something to enjoy, that in itself is a better legacy than what has been left now, through copying Trish.
Women in wrestling like Trish Stratus and the divas of today would not have been given the chance they have done had it not been for the likes of Lita taking the big steps to make this all possible. Lita's attributes gave Trish Stratus her title chance and yet when Lita gets injured for 18 months, she is still a treasured piece of the women's division. While her career made have been tarnished at the end because of the Love Triangle, her selfish actions led to a selfless contribution to giving superstars like Edge his Rated R factor and giving women's wrestling a new spice of life that it had never seen before.
It's easy to assume everyone is a spout of Trish Stratus because she's the first thought of name, but yet how many times do we compare current crop of superstars like John Cena to The Rock and Steve Austin, when the claim is far from being either like one another? Women's wrestling is nothing like it was because it has become a joke, it's easy to assume they're like Trish Stratus because WWE and TNA don't truly give the women's division the time nor the effort to provide them at their best, which makes them unwatchable, if that's the result of Trish Stratus' legacy, then she is right to distance herself from it. Lita is a unqiue one of a kind type wrestler, and they're the ones that get remembered more after the hype of glits and glamour of the first wave of "fan favs".
It's easy to assume that Lita fell back to where Trish began, but simply put, Lita did fall on similiar terms as Trish but was in a better position. Where Trish was managing a second rate team, Lita was managing a main event superstar, furthermore a heel, which justifies being "reduced" to live sex celebrations, she was simply doing her job. Had Lita not been out for 18 months, she would have been the one having more world title reigns, but yet even after that long layoff, she was pushed to the title and the fans were still behind her.
Women's wrestling hasn't progressed since the departure of both Trish and Lita, in fact it's fallen back because they believe following a code that anyone can do, but it's become lacklustre and less exciting because only so few who follow Lita's code have been given the true chance. Trish Status didn't lead the new generation, this honour was set up by Lita because had Lita not been there, Trish would have never lasted as long as Sable or Torrie Wilson.
While WWE and TNA have accepted that the women's division needs more athletism than being beauty over brains, it's still not a product that gains interest. Diva matches are now toilet breaks because nothing excites them, something that Lita provided with her matches, where her career winded down, it was because she allowed it, yet where people remember Trish because she's still around in the spotlight, people still remember Lita with a high honour despite being out of the spotlight, that shows that a legacy is not defined because they're still in the spotlight. We still spoke about Ricky Steamboat when he was out of the spotlight, we still speak about Lita. In short, Lita's legacy is a greater one because of what she left still lies waiting to be unleashed again, when the moment it comes, women's wrestling will become more interesting again, where through following Trish, has failed.
Lita's legacy made women's wrestling something to enjoy, that in itself is a better legacy than what has been left now, through copying Trish.
Cena's Little Helper
Mid-Card Championship Winner
Clarity Of Argument: Phoenix, you presented a great argument here for why Lita's legacy should be considered greater than Stratus', but, less is more. Try to present a more concise argument in future debates. I would suggest you take a look at how fromthesouth presented his argument in this debate.
Point: fromthesouth
Punctuality: I didn't see any problems with punctuality. I will split the point between you two.
Point: Phoenix and fromthesouth
Informative: Both arguments were very informative. It was clear to me that both of you did your research. I will split the point between you two.
Point: Phoenix and fromthesouth
Emotionality: I believe that both of you believed in what you were saying. I will split the point between you two.
Point: Phoenix and fromthesouth
Persuasion: fromthesouth, the one problem with your argument was overstatement. Trish Stratus was a decent wrestler; what was so impressive about her was how much she had improved over the course of her wrestling career, but, by the end of her career, I don't think many people would agree that she was an outstanding wrestler. Also, when using such terminology as ring psychology and storytelling, make sure to provide definitions, as both of these terms have been interpreted and used in many different ways. Despite your lack of brevity, Phoenix, you presented a very persuasive argument. Moreover, I liked that fact that your argument focused almost solely on Lita; by not denigrating Stratus' contributions to WWE and emphasizing Lita's assets as a wrestler, you ultimately won me over.
Point: Phoenix
tdigle's Score
fromthesouth: 2.5
Phoenix: 2.5
Point: fromthesouth
Punctuality: I didn't see any problems with punctuality. I will split the point between you two.
Point: Phoenix and fromthesouth
Informative: Both arguments were very informative. It was clear to me that both of you did your research. I will split the point between you two.
Point: Phoenix and fromthesouth
Emotionality: I believe that both of you believed in what you were saying. I will split the point between you two.
Point: Phoenix and fromthesouth
Persuasion: fromthesouth, the one problem with your argument was overstatement. Trish Stratus was a decent wrestler; what was so impressive about her was how much she had improved over the course of her wrestling career, but, by the end of her career, I don't think many people would agree that she was an outstanding wrestler. Also, when using such terminology as ring psychology and storytelling, make sure to provide definitions, as both of these terms have been interpreted and used in many different ways. Despite your lack of brevity, Phoenix, you presented a very persuasive argument. Moreover, I liked that fact that your argument focused almost solely on Lita; by not denigrating Stratus' contributions to WWE and emphasizing Lita's assets as a wrestler, you ultimately won me over.
Point: Phoenix
tdigle's Score
fromthesouth: 2.5
Phoenix: 2.5
Clarity of debate- 1 point
Phoenix, I don't ever agree with Tdigle. Ever. But... wait, no we agreed once, I am sure of it. Anyways, to get to the point at hand. You had a great argument Phoenix, but I really think that you need to cut the garbage, and give the world what you mean. Fromthesouth did a great job at that, and thus gets the point.
Punctuality- 1 point
Well Mr. Virginia, what I would do is look at the last person who debated, and give them a point, such as Mr. Phoenix here.
Informative- 1 point
This is the last point I am giving, and it is usually the most objective. I have to look at what the debate actually was, Lita's legacy versus Trish's legacy and give the point to who provided the information. Phoenix, you get this point, but both of you did your research.
Emotionality- 1 point
I have to give Phoenix the point here. He inspired me and used some great lines. The one about the true gems was brilliant.
Persuasion- 1 point
But it was FTS who persuaded me the best. He defiantly deserves this point for his debate. If Persuasion and Clarity won debates, FTS would have won.
TM rates this 3 points Phoenix to 2 points FTS.
Phoenix, I don't ever agree with Tdigle. Ever. But... wait, no we agreed once, I am sure of it. Anyways, to get to the point at hand. You had a great argument Phoenix, but I really think that you need to cut the garbage, and give the world what you mean. Fromthesouth did a great job at that, and thus gets the point.
Punctuality- 1 point
Well Mr. Virginia, what I would do is look at the last person who debated, and give them a point, such as Mr. Phoenix here.
Informative- 1 point
This is the last point I am giving, and it is usually the most objective. I have to look at what the debate actually was, Lita's legacy versus Trish's legacy and give the point to who provided the information. Phoenix, you get this point, but both of you did your research.
Emotionality- 1 point
I have to give Phoenix the point here. He inspired me and used some great lines. The one about the true gems was brilliant.
Persuasion- 1 point
But it was FTS who persuaded me the best. He defiantly deserves this point for his debate. If Persuasion and Clarity won debates, FTS would have won.
TM rates this 3 points Phoenix to 2 points FTS.
Clarity-FTS
I agree with that Diglett said. While both of you presented a great amount of information and background, I felt FTS was able to this just as much as Phoenix, but with less wording. Making it more clear to read.
Punctuality
Both were on time so i will hand a point to no one.
Informative-Phoenix.
I felt both of you gave a great amount of information, but I felt Phoenix really went back from the start and end to Lita's career with a great amount of detail. Both of you did your research like TM said, but i also give it to Phoenix. If I could, I would split the point here and give it to you both.
Emotionality-Phoenix
Before I went through Phoenix's argument, I always felt Trish will leave behind the bigger legacy, but Phoenix made me really look at Lita in a new way with the way he argued her innovativeness.
Persuasion-Phoenix
When I saw the title for this argument I believed fully that Trish would leave the bigger legacy behind, but Phoenix has made me second guess this now, and now I'm actually at conflict who will. So I give the point to Phoenix for changing my way of thinking.
I agree with that Diglett said. While both of you presented a great amount of information and background, I felt FTS was able to this just as much as Phoenix, but with less wording. Making it more clear to read.
Punctuality
Both were on time so i will hand a point to no one.
Informative-Phoenix.
I felt both of you gave a great amount of information, but I felt Phoenix really went back from the start and end to Lita's career with a great amount of detail. Both of you did your research like TM said, but i also give it to Phoenix. If I could, I would split the point here and give it to you both.
Emotionality-Phoenix
Before I went through Phoenix's argument, I always felt Trish will leave behind the bigger legacy, but Phoenix made me really look at Lita in a new way with the way he argued her innovativeness.
Persuasion-Phoenix
When I saw the title for this argument I believed fully that Trish would leave the bigger legacy behind, but Phoenix has made me second guess this now, and now I'm actually at conflict who will. So I give the point to Phoenix for changing my way of thinking.
Luther_Hull
Cunt.
Clarity: FTS's was more "readable" if that makes sense. Although it was VERY close, along with this whole debate.
Punctuality: No problems here, share the point.
Informative: Both were informative, but Phoenix has the edge on this one.
Emotionality: Both arguments where two of the more passionate, but I feel that Phoenix was "in the zone" a bit more with his argument.
Persuasion: After reading the whole thing again, I found myself agreeing with Phoenix on the matter at hand. He gets the point.
FTS 1.5, Phoenix 3.5
Punctuality: No problems here, share the point.
Informative: Both were informative, but Phoenix has the edge on this one.
Emotionality: Both arguments where two of the more passionate, but I feel that Phoenix was "in the zone" a bit more with his argument.
Persuasion: After reading the whole thing again, I found myself agreeing with Phoenix on the matter at hand. He gets the point.
FTS 1.5, Phoenix 3.5
Clarity:They were both very easy to read but I liked what FTS did with it all. He was able to separate them into smaller paragraphs, which made everything clearer.
Point. FTS
Punctuality: Didn't really find a problem. Both share the point.
Point: Phoenix and FTS
Informative: Both were very informative. but I give the edge to Phoenix.
Point:Phoenix
Emotionality: Both debaters were very passionate. They will share the point.
Point: Phoenix and FTS
Persuasion: After reading the debate I found myself second guessing my opinion on the matter. Phoenix was very persuasive during the whole debate.
Point: Phoenix
FTS - 2 points
Phoenix - 3 points
Point. FTS
Punctuality: Didn't really find a problem. Both share the point.
Point: Phoenix and FTS
Informative: Both were very informative. but I give the edge to Phoenix.
Point:Phoenix
Emotionality: Both debaters were very passionate. They will share the point.
Point: Phoenix and FTS
Persuasion: After reading the debate I found myself second guessing my opinion on the matter. Phoenix was very persuasive during the whole debate.
Point: Phoenix
FTS - 2 points
Phoenix - 3 points
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