WCW Round 3, Match 2: AJ Styles and Christopher Daniels vs. Owen Hart and Yokozuna
- Thread starter Shocky
- Start date
Let's see. Owen and Yokozuna are both dead. Both old school. Guys don't come much bigger than Yokozuna. So that's three "advantages" right there. I'm actually going to have the audacity to say Staniels. I don't know if anyone will be joining me.
Why, you ask? Billy Gunn. In my YouTube escapades, I watched Billy Gunn use his speed and agility to knock both Yokozuna and Owen Hart to the mat and gain considerable control of the match. Billy Gunn. OK, so he's no Great Khali but he's hardly known for his speed and agility, yet he used what he did have to trump both wrestlers on separate occasions. But AJ Styles and Christopher Daniels don't have much of either. Wait, what's that? You say they have spades of both, being considered two of the most agile and quick wrestlers on the planet? Well spank my aunt fantastic.
Even if AJ or Daniels couldn't topple Yokozuna on their own - which I highly doubt because Billy Gunn did it - it's just a quick double team move which actives... THE TURTLE EFFECT! Then Mr. Hart, a good all-rounder but vulnerable to Billy Gunn levels of speed and agility, is all Staniels' - for a time at least.
So there you have it. Billy Gunn.
Edit: Oh, and WCW ring ropes are suited to quick and agile wrestlers. I hate mentioning that but yeahhh...
Why, you ask? Billy Gunn. In my YouTube escapades, I watched Billy Gunn use his speed and agility to knock both Yokozuna and Owen Hart to the mat and gain considerable control of the match. Billy Gunn. OK, so he's no Great Khali but he's hardly known for his speed and agility, yet he used what he did have to trump both wrestlers on separate occasions. But AJ Styles and Christopher Daniels don't have much of either. Wait, what's that? You say they have spades of both, being considered two of the most agile and quick wrestlers on the planet? Well spank my aunt fantastic.
Even if AJ or Daniels couldn't topple Yokozuna on their own - which I highly doubt because Billy Gunn did it - it's just a quick double team move which actives... THE TURTLE EFFECT! Then Mr. Hart, a good all-rounder but vulnerable to Billy Gunn levels of speed and agility, is all Staniels' - for a time at least.
So there you have it. Billy Gunn.
Edit: Oh, and WCW ring ropes are suited to quick and agile wrestlers. I hate mentioning that but yeahhh...
IrishCanadian25
Going on 10 years with WrestleZone
Sorry, Sammy, been busy with work and waging an Internet War. But let me indulge you, because I respect you.
I would have to vote for Yokozuna and Owen Hart, so yes, Sam, we disagree. But I respect the hell out of your desire to keep carrying the TNA flag so proudly.
As the forums expert on Superheavyweights (self-proclaimed, much as Echelon with Women's wrestling), I concede that a Superheavyweight, when brought to the mat, can often be defeated, or at least neutralized, by a strong attack from a ring tactician. But the challenge with getting a man like Yokozuna down is just that - getting him down! For months, Yokozuna was the man who could NOT be knocked off his feat, until Jim Duggan did it (only to get annihilated shortly thereafter). And Duggan was a powerful guy with a hell of a clothesline. Styles and Daniels don't have that kind of power.
Missle drop kicks will be swatted away. Like Peter MacNichol said in Ghostbusters 2 - "You are like the buzzing of flies to him!"
And even if Styles' and Daniels' technical prowess is in top form, they will weat out trying to get Yokozuna off his feat, and they still have a fresh Owen Hart to deal with. Owen was in the prime of his wrestling career at this point, and after Yoko tosses one of them out of the ring and leg drops the other, the Sharpshooter makes it all academic.
Owen and Yokozuna was a classic case of an agile technician and a strong beheamoth coming together. Styles and Daniels are talented, but I don't see them getting past this combination because they just don't have the muscle or the firepower.
I would have to vote for Yokozuna and Owen Hart, so yes, Sam, we disagree. But I respect the hell out of your desire to keep carrying the TNA flag so proudly.
As the forums expert on Superheavyweights (self-proclaimed, much as Echelon with Women's wrestling), I concede that a Superheavyweight, when brought to the mat, can often be defeated, or at least neutralized, by a strong attack from a ring tactician. But the challenge with getting a man like Yokozuna down is just that - getting him down! For months, Yokozuna was the man who could NOT be knocked off his feat, until Jim Duggan did it (only to get annihilated shortly thereafter). And Duggan was a powerful guy with a hell of a clothesline. Styles and Daniels don't have that kind of power.
Missle drop kicks will be swatted away. Like Peter MacNichol said in Ghostbusters 2 - "You are like the buzzing of flies to him!"
And even if Styles' and Daniels' technical prowess is in top form, they will weat out trying to get Yokozuna off his feat, and they still have a fresh Owen Hart to deal with. Owen was in the prime of his wrestling career at this point, and after Yoko tosses one of them out of the ring and leg drops the other, the Sharpshooter makes it all academic.
Owen and Yokozuna was a classic case of an agile technician and a strong beheamoth coming together. Styles and Daniels are talented, but I don't see them getting past this combination because they just don't have the muscle or the firepower.
klunderbunker
Welcome to My (And Not Sly's) House
I loved Styles and Daniels, and I still say this should be the Colossal Connection here, but the luck runs out. Before they were against two power men. Now its power and speed, which as time has shown is the best combination there is. Daniels is great. Owen can go move for move with him for as long as he needs to. Same with Styles. That leaves one of the TNA guys to take out Yoko. I will say it here and now: Yokozuna is the most overrated big man I have ever seen. That being said, he would dominate here. WWE in a decent 9 minute affair.
IrishCanadian25
Going on 10 years with WrestleZone
Wow, people cheated us out of Yokozuna vs Andre the Giant in this match by voting Styles and Daniels over CC. That's a crime that the TNA kids will have to pay for.
Third time. Don't care if three posts appear:
I'm all teary eyed.
I need to be an expert on something. We'll go with TNA tag teams for now. I'll come up with something cooler later.
But this guy did it:
At this point, Billy Gunn wasn't the aged mass of steroid-induced muscle that relied on picking on littler guys. Duggan may have been the first to do it, but Billy Gunn later did it (during the time period given, might I add) using about four moves, pretty much running around Yokozuna and jumping at him. I also put it to you that AJ is deceptively strong - certainly on par with Mr. Gunn at this point in his career.
I'm also informed that Yokozuna was over 700 lbs at this point in his career - billed as about 80 lbs less. Yeah, sounds unstoppable, but damn it, Billy Gunn! He's hardly the fittest of fiddles. I honestly don't think he could keep up with the blistering pace of Staniels.
Billy Gunn used a weak-looking faceplant sort of thing to get him down. I can imagine AJ doing it with his flipping inverted DDT thing. Then there's the high and low combo that's put more people on their ass than I can count - the laws of physics and Yokozuna's huge ass and thin ankles dictate he's not very well balanced. I'd say he may even be easier to get off his feet than Owen, just because of his weird frame. He's all big and round in the middle.
I can make up situations to, y'know. AJ starts out, doing around Yokozuna. 'Zuna gets him down, but Pele! the monsters teetering. Drop kick! 'Zuna's teetering even more, waving his arms desperately in an attempt to stay up. Inverted DDT! He's down. Besides, Staniels are all about teamwork. Once Owen's in, what makes you think he'll be able to apply the Sharpshooter long enough to make either tap? And you make it sound like they'd be helpless. Daniels in particular is no technical slouch. Sure, he may not have been trained in the Hart family dungeon, but neither was Kurt Angle. Technical wrestling is Daniels' bread and butter. Speaking of submissions, Daniels' "Reverse STO followed into a Koji Clutch" is lethal, quick and can come out of nowhere.
I don't think Yokozuna has the health to keep up with the blistering pace laid down or the frame to stay on his feet when he's having bodies coming at him from all angles and to stop himself rolling around helplessly like a medicine ball. Leaving it to Owen to throw off his "can be taken by Billy Gunn" tag to become so technically spectacular that he can turn every AJ Styles springboard attack into, I dunno, a German suplex, and be able to predict what Christopher Daniels is going to do next.
Strength? Giving Yokozuna his own medicine has never been a good strategy. Good thing Staniels have their own medicine which will treat all symptons. The speed and agility of Styles & Daniels is so great that Owen will be lucky to know which way he's going, never mind the rotund Jap. And yes, I dare to put forward the sacrilege that Daniels has more than enough technical ability to take on Owen one-on-one, and that AJ's high-flying antics aren't something which can be as easily grounded as say, Jeff Hardy's "give me a minutesault". He's quick and he bounces off the short, tight WCW ropes like nobody's business. Same with Daniels, come to think of it.
I'm all teary eyed.
I need to be an expert on something. We'll go with TNA tag teams for now. I'll come up with something cooler later.
But this guy did it:
At this point, Billy Gunn wasn't the aged mass of steroid-induced muscle that relied on picking on littler guys. Duggan may have been the first to do it, but Billy Gunn later did it (during the time period given, might I add) using about four moves, pretty much running around Yokozuna and jumping at him. I also put it to you that AJ is deceptively strong - certainly on par with Mr. Gunn at this point in his career.
I'm also informed that Yokozuna was over 700 lbs at this point in his career - billed as about 80 lbs less. Yeah, sounds unstoppable, but damn it, Billy Gunn! He's hardly the fittest of fiddles. I honestly don't think he could keep up with the blistering pace of Staniels.
Billy Gunn used a weak-looking faceplant sort of thing to get him down. I can imagine AJ doing it with his flipping inverted DDT thing. Then there's the high and low combo that's put more people on their ass than I can count - the laws of physics and Yokozuna's huge ass and thin ankles dictate he's not very well balanced. I'd say he may even be easier to get off his feet than Owen, just because of his weird frame. He's all big and round in the middle.
I can make up situations to, y'know. AJ starts out, doing around Yokozuna. 'Zuna gets him down, but Pele! the monsters teetering. Drop kick! 'Zuna's teetering even more, waving his arms desperately in an attempt to stay up. Inverted DDT! He's down. Besides, Staniels are all about teamwork. Once Owen's in, what makes you think he'll be able to apply the Sharpshooter long enough to make either tap? And you make it sound like they'd be helpless. Daniels in particular is no technical slouch. Sure, he may not have been trained in the Hart family dungeon, but neither was Kurt Angle. Technical wrestling is Daniels' bread and butter. Speaking of submissions, Daniels' "Reverse STO followed into a Koji Clutch" is lethal, quick and can come out of nowhere.
I don't think Yokozuna has the health to keep up with the blistering pace laid down or the frame to stay on his feet when he's having bodies coming at him from all angles and to stop himself rolling around helplessly like a medicine ball. Leaving it to Owen to throw off his "can be taken by Billy Gunn" tag to become so technically spectacular that he can turn every AJ Styles springboard attack into, I dunno, a German suplex, and be able to predict what Christopher Daniels is going to do next.
Strength? Giving Yokozuna his own medicine has never been a good strategy. Good thing Staniels have their own medicine which will treat all symptons. The speed and agility of Styles & Daniels is so great that Owen will be lucky to know which way he's going, never mind the rotund Jap. And yes, I dare to put forward the sacrilege that Daniels has more than enough technical ability to take on Owen one-on-one, and that AJ's high-flying antics aren't something which can be as easily grounded as say, Jeff Hardy's "give me a minutesault". He's quick and he bounces off the short, tight WCW ropes like nobody's business. Same with Daniels, come to think of it.
To summarise:
One last thing: don't think you're alone with voting new school. Last year, Staniels toppled the fucking Minnesota Wrecking Crew in the quarter finals. Granted, they were then toppled by Harlem Heat in the semis.
- Strength? Pah!
- Speed and agility, that's what knocks Yokozuna on his ass - Owen doesn't fair particularly well either
- Staniels' have superior teamwork too, ensuring they won't ever get stranded
- Billy Gunn used his limited speed and agility to get the advantage against Owenzuna
- Christopher Daniels is severely underrated as a ring technician
- Just because they're both old, both dead and one half SHW (oh, and not TNA) doesn't mean you have to vote for them
- I think that's it
- Sam's supporters need to be more vocal
One last thing: don't think you're alone with voting new school. Last year, Staniels toppled the fucking Minnesota Wrecking Crew in the quarter finals. Granted, they were then toppled by Harlem Heat in the semis.
Going with Yoko and Owen. Besides the obvious fact that Yokozuna would destroy either of Staniels members in a heartbeat, lets go with the "weak" link, with Owen Hart. Owen Hart is a better wrestler then either Daniels or Styles. Owen Hart could handle either of them with no problem in my opinion. All of that high flying, Owen can match that, and mat wrestle, and tear you apart with a nasty submission. Plus Owen is viscous, Ask Shawn Michaels head and Steve Austins neck on how viscous he is.
Then there's Yoko. Yoko isn't like past his prime Andre, Yoko is extremely agile and quick for a huge man. At this point, like Irish said, anything that Staniels could do would be swatted away by the big Samoan. Simply put, Yoko and Owen should win this one in a walk.
Then there's Yoko. Yoko isn't like past his prime Andre, Yoko is extremely agile and quick for a huge man. At this point, like Irish said, anything that Staniels could do would be swatted away by the big Samoan. Simply put, Yoko and Owen should win this one in a walk.
I've been waiting for you. Oh, how I've waited...
As I expected.
They had quite a bit of trouble with the Smoking Gunns.
I'd actually go with Yoko as the weak link. By all means, continue.
I won't go with the easy option that Owen is overrated because he's dead. No, I'm going the route that Daniels is a vastly underrated technician as stated. One more agile and speedy than Owen, with an equally deadly and much more surprising submission move. It's also immensely difficult to fight something which is pinging off the ropes at the rate of AJ Styles. Let's say, oh, somebody like... Kurt Angle is a better wrestler that Owen Hart. Kurt Angle is arguably a decent enough technical wrestler. Didn't stop AJ from besting him on multiple occasions.
You got me there. Kurt didn't have a nasty submission like, say, an Ankle Lock. And he was never, ever vicious. I hate to use these examples and comparisons. I come off as pompous and arrogant. I honestly think it works though.
That statement is overused. I think it's used so much, we should replace it with "extremely slow and clumsy for a big man". Such is the amount of big men that are agile and quick. Like I said, if Billy Gunn can bamboozle him by running circles round him, so can these two.
I also countered that point with Irish. With Billy Gunn.
As I expected.
They had quite a bit of trouble with the Smoking Gunns.
I'd actually go with Yoko as the weak link. By all means, continue.
I won't go with the easy option that Owen is overrated because he's dead. No, I'm going the route that Daniels is a vastly underrated technician as stated. One more agile and speedy than Owen, with an equally deadly and much more surprising submission move. It's also immensely difficult to fight something which is pinging off the ropes at the rate of AJ Styles. Let's say, oh, somebody like... Kurt Angle is a better wrestler that Owen Hart. Kurt Angle is arguably a decent enough technical wrestler. Didn't stop AJ from besting him on multiple occasions.
You got me there. Kurt didn't have a nasty submission like, say, an Ankle Lock. And he was never, ever vicious. I hate to use these examples and comparisons. I come off as pompous and arrogant. I honestly think it works though.
That statement is overused. I think it's used so much, we should replace it with "extremely slow and clumsy for a big man". Such is the amount of big men that are agile and quick. Like I said, if Billy Gunn can bamboozle him by running circles round him, so can these two.
I also countered that point with Irish. With Billy Gunn.
Fair enough with the Styles comparison over someone like Kurt Angle. Sure, Kurt was better technically, but Styles did fairly well against him. Look at Owen Hart though, he matched up against someone that I would daresay was better then angle in his brother Bret, and feuded and defeated him during 1994. Owen Hart does quite well in teh ring. Owen was in a nice high caliber feud with Shawn Michaels, when Shawn Michaels was still a high flyer, and Owen ended up KO'ing HBK in the middle of the ring with an Enzuigiri. (Essentially discounting Daniels at this point, I've watched enough of this guy to have an opinion that I think he's really not this good). I'm boiling this down without Yoko and Daniels, and I still think Owen trumps Daniels. Styles and Daniels though couldn't match up with Samoa Joe and his size, what would someone the size of Yoko be able to do?
Styles and Daniels actually owned Joe pretty thoroughly when they worked together. The reason they didn't always beat him is because they both wanted to pin him/grab the X title and ended up taking each other out in the process.
And like I said, I'd say this comes down to speed and agility over strength. Joe is definitely more agile and quick than Yoko was. Yoko was rumoured to be 80 lbs heavier than what he was billed at (around 620 lbs) at the point in his career. Far from immovable though, as the Gunns proved. His weight was massively focused in his medicine ball-like tummy, meaning that - due to, y'know, the laws of physics - he was much easier to knock down than someone whose weight is more evenly distributed. And yeah, he was agile and quick for his size. But Daniels and AJ are quick for their size - i.e. blisteringly quick/much quicker.
And I still dispute that Daniels is more than a mere high flyer. Yes, he's a highly accomplished high flyer. However, I'd give him the accolade of being Dean Malenko-esque with his technical style; varied and strategic. And his Koji Clutch (where you wrap your leg round your opponent's throat... and I believe there's an arm bar involved) is lethal.
And like I said, I'd say this comes down to speed and agility over strength. Joe is definitely more agile and quick than Yoko was. Yoko was rumoured to be 80 lbs heavier than what he was billed at (around 620 lbs) at the point in his career. Far from immovable though, as the Gunns proved. His weight was massively focused in his medicine ball-like tummy, meaning that - due to, y'know, the laws of physics - he was much easier to knock down than someone whose weight is more evenly distributed. And yeah, he was agile and quick for his size. But Daniels and AJ are quick for their size - i.e. blisteringly quick/much quicker.
And I still dispute that Daniels is more than a mere high flyer. Yes, he's a highly accomplished high flyer. However, I'd give him the accolade of being Dean Malenko-esque with his technical style; varied and strategic. And his Koji Clutch (where you wrap your leg round your opponent's throat... and I believe there's an arm bar involved) is lethal.
Yoko is far from unmovable, I understand that, but the Smoking Gunns had more power then Styles and Daniels do. When making that comparison, you're forgetting that Billy Gunn goes a solid 6'3, 260 lbs or so, likewise with Bart. Those two were pure power houses compared to Styles and Daniels. Styles and Daniels would be able to gain enough momentum to knock the big man down, but taht's without Owen being invovled. With Owen involved they won't be able to both get to the top and hit the high risk move.
There's two of them too Shocky. And I hate to completely run this example completely dry, but Owen wasn't doing much when Billy was taking Yoko down. Sure, Billy is bigger and heavier than AJ or Daniels. However, at this point I think it's very generous to describe him as a powerhouse; even if it is in comparison to the two cruiserweights. And what move did Billy topple Yoko with? A faceplant. Staniels have far more lethal moves in their arsenal, many of which I've mentioned. It's certainly not anywhere near an impossibility that Staniels can topple the big man. In fact, toppling him would probably be the top of their agenda - it always is in these situations.
And bringing in the two man factor: Staniels are a far more seamless unit than Owenzuna. It's more likely that one of them will end up out of the action while the TNA twosome gives the other a kicking. AMW are one of the trickiest teams of all time - I'd say it's the main reason they rose to such prominence that you would grant them automatic access into the tourney. So were, sorry, are LAX. Didn't stop Staniels isolating one of them while the other picked up his teeth.
And bringing in the two man factor: Staniels are a far more seamless unit than Owenzuna. It's more likely that one of them will end up out of the action while the TNA twosome gives the other a kicking. AMW are one of the trickiest teams of all time - I'd say it's the main reason they rose to such prominence that you would grant them automatic access into the tourney. So were, sorry, are LAX. Didn't stop Staniels isolating one of them while the other picked up his teeth.
I was on the fence with this one. I thought Yoko was bad when he was actually in shape, and during his time at 700lb he was utterly appalling (and I'm talking big daddy V levels).
At the same time; Owen was rather good, and I never found The Fallen Angel to be anything special. He had good matches with Styles, but everyone has good matches with Styles. Beyond that one X division title feud he never displayed much ability that really impressed me.
AJ of course is phenomenal, so overall it ends up looking pretty balanced.
I'll be voting for AJ and Daniels, party because Sam seems to be winning and not getting any result from doing so, and partly because I judge teamwork to be a very important factor in tag team wrestling; and now mater how good Owen was, there's no way he can maintain cohesiveness with a man who could barely enter the ring. Seriously; Styles or Daniels just have to dropkick him off of the apron and they have all the time in the world to double team Owen. Zuma wont be jumping into the ring to break up any pin falls or submissions.
At the same time; Owen was rather good, and I never found The Fallen Angel to be anything special. He had good matches with Styles, but everyone has good matches with Styles. Beyond that one X division title feud he never displayed much ability that really impressed me.
AJ of course is phenomenal, so overall it ends up looking pretty balanced.
I'll be voting for AJ and Daniels, party because Sam seems to be winning and not getting any result from doing so, and partly because I judge teamwork to be a very important factor in tag team wrestling; and now mater how good Owen was, there's no way he can maintain cohesiveness with a man who could barely enter the ring. Seriously; Styles or Daniels just have to dropkick him off of the apron and they have all the time in the world to double team Owen. Zuma wont be jumping into the ring to break up any pin falls or submissions.
Similar threads
- Poll
- Poll
- Poll
- Poll