Was Kane beat too quickly?

[Carpathian Florist]

I saw another thread about what made people wrestling fans and that got me thinking. When I first started to get into wrestling the angles that drew me in were The Hart Foundation and the build up to the debut of Kane.
Although The Hart Foundation was my main focus, that all fizzled out due to events we all know too well so what took over for me was this Michael Myers-like monster who was stalking The Undertaker. I was totally behind Kane 100% and positive he would win against Taker in their first meeting at Wrestlemania XIV.
At the time being a young and relatively new wrestling fan I had no concept of a match being booked a certain way to ensure that the loser still gets over. Although Kane took 3 Tombstones to be pinned and then got up almost immediately after, this didn't matter to me at all, all I saw was Kane losing and for me that killed the character completely. At Unforgiven I felt it was obvious that Kane would lose and ever since then I have never seen Kane as a credible main eventer, not helped by his one night title reign which was basically handed to him by 'Taker.
So my question is, does anyone else feel that Undertaker beating Kane in their first ever match together killed all his momentum? Or was this a natural conclusion to that feud?
Any thoughts of what may have happened had he beaten 'Taker at Wrestlemania?

Personally I would have liked Kane to have been built as an unstoppable monster even after 'Mania, leading to an angle where he would have "retired/killed" Undertaker in the inferno match the month after, then eventually going on to dethrone Austin somewhere in the fall. Then a build could have begun for a rejuvenated Undertaker to return for the big showdown with his brother for the title.

 

[ANKHOR_MAN3]

I personally think that when Kane started speaking that is when his character began it's real downfall. Even though Kane lost at wrestlemania he still had some credibility. He didn't really lose at wrestlemania, because he was still considered unstoppable. Hell it took 3 tombstones to put away as you said. However after wrestlemania Kane was still dismantling stuff and still a dominant monster. When he started speaking I dont know why but, WWE/F decided to make him a face. This was a complete miss; sometimes WWE/F despite the pops need to keep characters the way they are. Kane was born to be a villain; especially with a name like KANE and the story as to how he came into the WWE/F. That is why the undertaker American Badass character didnt work. Because people enjoyed the undertaker as the deadman the wrestler that wasn't a heel or a face. He can come in an chokeslam and tombstone everybody in the ring face or heel and still get a pop. That is the way Kane should be and unstoppable force. When Kane started speaking him being unstoppable was over. He now felt pain and even remourse sometimes. And then to top it all off they gave him a face. They had him reveal his actual face. They should have kept a mask on him and now he looks normal he doesnt even have that scary effect to him anymore. These few things were the downfall to his carrer. Before you know it the name Kane will be nonexsistant and he wont even matter. Undertaker will be a sure hall a famer while people will say Kane who?

 

[Tenta]

It was the natural conclusion to the feud. Look, Kane had six months of getting over in which he destroyed everyone and anyone. The guy took out Mick Foley, Vader, Ahmed Johnson, and just about every other name on the roster not named DX or Steve Austin. Hell, he set the Undertaker on fire, and pretty much jobbed out Vader, still one of the most intimidating creatures in the WWE at the time, in a mere seven minutes. The loss to The Undertaker shouldn't be remembered for the fact that he lost, but because it took him three tombstones to take out the man. I believe that, aside from The Fake Undertaker, absolutely no one else has ever survived more than two tombstones from The Undertaker. And even with the Fake Undertaker, that was merely done for the overkill factor, and to get rid of The Fake Undertaker; The Undertaker needed all three tombstones to actually beat Kane, and even then, Kane almost did kick out of the third tombstone. The Undertaker pulled everything out of his bag of tricks, sans magic and lightning, to beat Kane; one of the most indelible moments in the history of Wrestlemania for me was watching The Undertaker flying through a table, in a desperate attempt to beat Kane. Hell, he was even allowed to get his heat back immediately thereafter by Tombstoning The Undertaker on a steel chair.

Though, you do speak a little bit of truth; Kane was made to lose far too early in his career, but it wasn't to The Undertaker. Kane's first loss to hurt his image was againt Stone Cold Steve Austin.

Tenta, that's stupid. Stone Cold beat everyone at that time period. How can you argue it was bad to lose to Stone Cold?

The actual fact of losing to Stone Cold wasn't bad in and of itself. However, the fact that he lost clean to Austin, and lost one night after he beat him, hurt the credibility of Kane. First of all, there's the fact the Kane lost clean. Kane needed help to beat Austin, but Austin had no problem handling Kane all by himself in the match. Something about that, even to my ten year old mind, didn't register in my head. If Kane was such a bad ass as he was, why did Austin need no help in beating this man? Second, Austin did it the next night on Raw. This can be looked at as a hot shot booking, in which Raw used this against Nitro in order to beat them in the ratings. It didn't matter much in the long run, but Kane's character suffered from the fact that he was made to look like a fluke. If the WWE were smart, they wpuld have held off the battle between Austin and Kane for Summerslam, because Kane was probably the most intimidating character McMahon could ever put in front of him. You had the first case of Stone Cold not being sure if he can beat the man, and perhaps you can have The Undertaker playing the role of the enforcer, keeping Austin away from Kane for two months. After this, I really feel that the Austin/McMahon really began to jump the shark, before it not only jumped, but went into orbit around the shark, with the whole "Higher Power" gimmick.

Anyway, you're right in saying Kane was beat too quickly, but you have the wrong match. Kane was beat too quickly against Steve Austin.

 

[Hollywood Naitch]

It is a tough one to call as Kane beating Taker and wrestlemania would have killed the Deadmans streak before it really began, but a win for Kane could have made him HUGE

The guy was terrifying when he debuted with the mask, and full body-suit to cover the burns, he was literally the coolest wrestler I had ever seen at that time. A big win over the Undertaker could have put Kane over as THE dominant monster in the business for the next 10 years, he could have been the champ for a year.

Hell, he SHOULD have been the champ for a year. When he spoke through a voice box, that was cool, but taking the mask off, making him go shirtless and letting him talk has killed the gimmick. Such a missed opportunity

 

[The Mark of Zur-En-Arrh]

I've got to agree with Tenta here. Kane beat Taker down for months on end, then set him on fire inside a casket and then destroyed nearly the entire roster between then and Taker's return. It was logical for Taker to win at Mania, otherwise they may as well have buried the character right after WM14 and just called Kane 'The New Phenom'.

The Austin/Kane title situation was extremely ******ed. In the First Blood Match at KOTR, Kane even went as far as to cover the only exposed part of his flesh which was his left arm. So before then Austin would have had to slice him across the arm to get "more than a trickle of blood" which McMahon kept emphasising as a stipulation.

The match comes about, and Kane's covered head to toe in red clothing, so even if you stabbed him, you'd have to check it was blood and not a great big sweat mark under his costume. So there was no way Austin was likely to win anyway, against a guy who fights like the Undertaker, but is even more powerful and can take even more abuse. As if fighting Taker wasn't difficult enough!!!

Then they have the stupid Foley/Taker run in that cost Austin the match. Ok they didn't want Austin to actually be outclassed by another wrestler, so couldn't lose clean. Fair enough.

The next night, Austin beat Kane in like 5 minutes for the belt. Usual routine of punching, stomping, flipping the bird, lou thesz press, more punches, running elbow, stunner, new champion, and Kane might have got an uppercut in there somewhere as well.

Why did it take The Undertaker all his might and 3 tombstones just to survive against Kane one on one and yet Austin shit all over him, despite Austin struggling to beat Taker several times beforehand?

I don't really think it was necessary for Taker to win the Inferno match either to be honest, but i guess it was safer for Kane to do the stunt than him.

I'm not bothered so much that Kane lost the title after one night, Foley did the same to HHH and no one questioned his ME status ever, but it was the fact that Austin totally squashed Kane, after Glen had spent so many years with ******ed gimmicks, and he finally gets one that's easily marketable (and easily his most succesful gimmick and arguably one of the most succesful gimmicks to be born out of a spin off of another one, ever!), and he spends 6-8 months establishing himself as an impact player, only for Austin to kill every ounce of momentum he'd garnered in that time frame.

You can't blame Austin for that, or Kane, but unfortunately Glen Jacobs became a casualty of shock booking to gain a ratings boost one week.

Just think. He could of had the kind of title run that JBL had. Ok he'd get nowhere near as much heel heat through promos, but Paul Bearer could have helped out in that area well enough.

It got worse some 5 years later when it looked like he was going to hold 3 titles at once, but instead they had him job to HHH yet again, and his momentum died all over again, and after that the mask came off and the rest is history.

And sorry Ankhor_Man3 but i totally disagree, Glen Jacobs will be in the HOF. He's been with WWE just as long as the other guys who've been listed as 'future HOF'ers' and bust his ass as much as all of them, without half the bullshit that some of them gave McMahon during their runs, so he definitely deserves to be inducted. If guys like Rocky Johnson get in just for winning 1 title, no matter how historic, then Kane'll get in. They may not induct him as Kane, but in one form or another, Glen Jacobs will get in.

 

[ANKHOR_MAN3]

Tenta you are right they started making Kane soft. I wish they would have teamed Kane and Undertaker back then when they were both Evil characters. This would have made for complete and utter annihilation. Let's face it before the cheap win Kane was destroying anything. Hell his debut he ripped the door off the cage. Who was doing that back then. I am in complete shock how quickly Kane fell to mediocrity. Then they began to make a mockery. I also forgot to add in DX 2000 when they added Kane into the mix. That also completely destroyed the character. I mean Kane DX for what, there was absoultely no point. That was part of the begining of his downfall. I mean Kane was looked at as an erie figure that no one could figure out. When his actions began to become predictable he lost steam. He was suppose to mirror the undertake except be stronger and know the undertakers weaknesses. He could have very easily took apart every superstar, in fact they could have used him simply by, having paul bearer find out different things about the superstar he was facing so Kane could pin point those weaknesses. That is how Kane should have been used, but like all great characters who are dominant and dont speak once they begin speaking they are destroyed. Look at wrestelers like Kozlov, Khali, Umaga theres no more imagination. You know make these Monsters Human. <<<<Kanes Abrupt Stop to success

Mark I hear what your saying you pose a good point. Kane will probably get in but I believe the character has gone through too much abuse. What they need to do is take Kane off of TV for a while or have undertaker come out of the vegitative state and burn kane or something and then just take him off tv for a couple months maybe a little longer. This would create a lot of suspense and then have him come back with a mask or at least burn marks that dont heal. Make him a formiddable opponent something as to where he gets credibility. I'm tired of seeing him get a huge push just for something to completely stop his success. They need to do some serious REPACKAGING. I wasn't saying he was going to get into the hall of fame I was saying in comparison to others who get into the hall of fame he would be looked at as Kane who because, especially younger viewers, alot of people don't know Kane as being dominant or even his history they just know him as the jobber who loses so easily and sometimes has a mean streak for it to be changed the next week into a less abrasive monster. Kane should be doing similar things to that of the NEXUS right now. Which is destroying everything in his path like, even his angle right now is rather soft. Kane was never a question asker first and giving breaks. He would just beat the shit out of you. So the fact that he his an investigator now is beyond me. He should just be tearing people apart and for some reason I have feeling that if this storyline gets the feel of his recent storylines then it could be over very soon to the BIG RED MONSTER! I hope I am proved wrong and they bring that true DOMINENCE BACK. First REPACKAGE Kane, I know it's PG but still they can have a character that people are afraid of. Hell when they did the PG theme with Hogan they still had Undertaker and Papa Shango who scared the hell out of kids so do something like that give the Evil back to the WWE

 

[Carpathian Florist]

Well I will admit that now, looking back on things with a bit more experience, perhaps the loss to Stone Cold was the match where he was beat too quickly. At the time though his loss to Undertaker affected my view of him a lot. Does anyone know who came up with the Kane character? I gathered the initial idea was actually Jim Cornette's, but I have no concrete proof of this. I do recall him mentioning in an interview that he argued with Russo a lot over the character though, is it possible that once control of Kane was taken away from Cornette that the decline began?

 

[greg_74]

I think Kane was a credible main eventer all the way up through his partnering and later battling Taker for the title in late 98 after they took it from Stone Cold. After that is when he lost his main event feel, although I've always felt if they ever wanted or needed Kane to hold the title over on SmackDown that he could do it. I agree with him actually talking and then of course losing the mask hurt his character A LOT! We can only hope that something might happen to get the mask back on him, but I really doubt it because someone "burning" him again wouldn't be that PG.

 

[ANKHOR_MAN3]

greg_74 the burning doesnt have to take place on a ppv or raw or SD it could happen in the same fashion as Takers vegitative state. Anything could happen off camera. Take Kane off tv for a while and then he could easily be burnt by the undertaker for puting him in a vegitative state. This would not only create heat for Kane but as well as return him to his once dominance

 

[crimson_mask]

The problem with monster heels is that they have limited mileage. No matter how dominating they might have been, no matter how many big-name opponents they go over, at some point they have to lose. It's the same pattern again and again - the monster has a period where they're seemingly unstoppable, they challenge a top guy and eventually get beaten, resulting in them going lower down the card and less and less relevant as time goes on. It happened with Yokozuna, Umaga, Khali, and countless others. The same thing happened with Kane. While he looked strong throughout his initial feud with Taker, it was the losses at Wrestlemania and Unforgiven that were the first chinks in the armour. As mentioned, the Austin feud was the one that truly ended Kane's run as a dominant monster.

It's often argued that Kane deserves far more than he's achieved in the WWE. Frankly, I think Kane's lucky to have stayed around for so long. Admittedly, he's been involved in some pure shit during his career (his alignment with DX, Katie Vick, the May 19th thing) but the character's shelf life has been pretty remarkable and I think Kane fans should be grateful he didn't go the way of so many other monsters of wrestling.

 

[Carpathian Florist]

I don't think losing the mask would have been such a huge thing if they'd kept his long hair and beard when he removed it, I don't know if the shaved look was a cosmetic choice by Glen himself or whether that was requested of him by WWE.... or maybe his hair was just receding and it had to be that way, but I think the character would have had a bit more life if they'd kept him with a similar look to Undertaker once the mask was off