Was Bobby Heenan overrated?

[pyrusane]

I may take some heat for this, but I personally believe that Bobby Heenan was tremendously overrated, both as a manager and even more so as an announcer. While he generated tremendous heat from the fans, I feel that he hurt his talent more than helping them in his efforts to get himself over.

My best evidence of this occurred at Bash at the Beach 96. You know the event. This was the legendary PPV where Hulk Hogan turned his back on the fans, siding with Hall and Nash to form the NWO. Picture it: Savage is down in the center of the ring, Sting is down outside the ring, Hall and Nash are both down as well. Suddenly, a massive pop as Hogan makes his way out to the ring! Most people are thinking "Now those Outsiders are gonna get it!"

The announcers are excited too. They are so thrilled to see Hogan coming down to save the day. Except for Heenan, who utters the words "But which side is he on?"

Huh?

Ok, sure, the whole build to this point was "Who is the third man?" But no one had even speculated that it might be Hogan, it was one of the biggest shocks in the history of the business. And yet Heenan, in his desire to show how damn smart he was, almost blew the whole thing. Incredibly selfish and unprofessional, in my opinion.

I am interested in your thoughts. If you agree with me, explain why. If you think I'm full of it, explain why. I look forward to (hopefully) some good debates.

 

[Mr. TM]

Well Heenan might have foreshadowed that turn in his comment, but you do get the benefit looking back now to know the end result. Back then, I remember it, I could give a shit what Heenan said, I knew Hogan was there to kick some ass, and the asses he was going to kick was obvious. Heenan didn't make me think it was about to be a massive heel turn.

Heenan overall though was an incredible talent. He got people to hat him as a manager and a announcer, and he did it better than most. Few can touch him as a manager, and less could equal him as a heel announcer.

 

[pyrusane]

Heenan overall though was an incredible talent. He got people to hate him as a manager and a announcer, and he did it better than most. Few can touch him as a manager, and less could equal him as a heel announcer.

And this is exactly what I mean. Heenan got people to hate him, when his job was to get people to hate his talent. It didn't really matter who walked down to the ring with Heenan, they were going to get boos just because he was at ringside.

Here's an idea: let's compare him to another great heel manager, Paul Heyman. You hated Paul because he was loud, brash, and rude. He generated heat for his talent. But he focused the heat on his wrestler. He made you want to see his guy get beat, just to shut him up. With Heenan, at least in my case, I could care less about his wrestler getting beat, I was more interested in seeing the face get his hands on Heenan after the match.

When the highlight of the match is the manager getting beat up afterwords, not the heel actually getting pinned, then the manager is not doing his job, imho.

 

[Mr. TM]

That is a good point. But I will bring up a good recent example. Edge is a great heel, and that is partnered with his manager, Vickie Guerrero. Vickie draws huge amounts of heat, but when it is all said and done, it is a packaged deal. Heenan's heel heat was partnered with the wrestlers he was managed heat. That is why they had the Heenan family.

 

[pyrusane]

I will bring up a good recent example. Edge is a great heel, and that is partnered with his manager, Vickie Guerrero. Vickie draws huge amounts of heat, but when it is all said and done, it is a packaged deal. Heenan's heel heat was partnered with the wrestlers he was managed heat. That is why they had the Heenan family.

You make an excellent point. I had a feeling someone would bring up Vickie Guerrero. There is a difference though. Vickie doesn't have to work to get heat. All she has to do is walk through the curtain and the place goes nuts. But on the other hand, a lot of her heat was initially created by the very fact that she was with Edge. Edge is one of the best heels in the business right now, so he and Vickie are a great match for each other.

In Heenan's case, however, there were times when I felt like he stole heat from his wrestlers. I distinctly remember watching The Ultimate Warrior against Rick Rude in a steel cage. Now, Rick Rude was a great heel, and he had no trouble generating heat all on his own. And yet I spent that whole match hoping to see Warrior get his hands on Heenan, and when he finally did, that was the big payoff to the match.

Btw, by no means do I mean to imply that Henan wasn't a good manager. I simply think that maybe he wasn't quite as great as we all give him credit for.

 

[MattMoses]

The announcers are excited too. They are so thrilled to see Hogan coming down to save the day. Except for Heenan, who utters the words "But which side is he on?"

Bobby Heenan was a heel announcer. The history between himself and Hogan stems back to the early 80's in the AWA. Heenan absolutely despised Hogan, and he's never been quiet about it. Whether it was feuding with him in the AWA or the WWF, up until Hogan's arrival in WCW, Heenan has made every attempt to show his dislike for the man. Would it make sense for Heenan to scream with joy at the sight of seeing Hogan, his worst enemy in the business?

But no one had even speculated that it might be Hogan, it was one of the biggest shocks in the history of the business.

It was one of the biggest shocks in the business, arguably the biggest shock in the history of the business. Despite Heenan's comments, nobody thought it was going to be Hogan.

And yet Heenan, in his desire to show how damn smart he was, almost blew the whole thing. Incredibly selfish and unprofessional, in my opinion.

I don't see how he almost blew anything. Heenan had always doubted Hogan and this was no excpetion. Hogan had been absent from WCW since the attacks from the Outsiders, which was suspicious in itself. That, combined with the fact that Heenan hated Hogan, it made sense for him to say what he did. Bobby was always a smart man, and what he said didn't affect what ultimately became Hogan's heel turn at all. He played his character well by saying what he said.

 

[richardleaf20]

If anything Bobby Heenan is underrated. I don't think there is anyone else in the history of this business that was a successful manager and successful commentator. Listening to him and Gorilla Monsoon was almost more entertaining than some of the matches they were calling. Heenan was a master of the mic in getting his wrestlers over and putting the heels over on commentary. Bobby Heenan is probably the greatest manager of all time. I'm just saying.

 

[Hulkster4Life]

Hell yeah, Bobby Heenan is def not overated, He made wrestling better by his funny commentating skills (Way funnier then Jerry Lawler when he was a heel announcer) And a great manager, he always managed the greatest heels, and ever since he got sick and stopped, wrestling went downhill and just hearing him and Gorilla Monsoon announce made wrestling so much better and fun to watch, u never know what Heenan would say next.. haha even at wrestlemania 17 i believe it was he was a special commentaor for the gimmick battle royal and he was still the funny old bobby heenan we all knew, the battle royal sucked ass but listening to Heenan just made u have to watch it and made it so much better.. one of his lines from that battle royal was "by the time the iron shiek gets to the ring, it will be WM 28!" LMAO!!! Heenan is the man!!

 

[GameOver]

He was the best WWF Heel Manager of all time period.,.
Heenan was a buffoon on purpose, that was intentional and he loved being made fun of, which in my book puts him up on a pedistal.

He was the ultimate guy you loved to hate cause he was so damn annoying yet funny at the same time, and when he finally went semi face he was off the chart.

Obviously he hade a great love/respect for Gorilla Monsson which was evident when he inducted him into the HOF. They were a great commentary team took the ankst of Gorilla vs Jessie and added comedy to it.

He also wrestled aswell, which is something only a few managers did

Anyone who thinks he is overrated is gonna be unloved.

 

[Ambiguous Turd]

I may take some heat for this, but I personally believe that Bobby Heenan was tremendously overrated, both as a manager and even more so as an announcer. While he generated tremendous heat from the fans, I feel that he hurt his talent more than helping them in his efforts to get himself over.

My best evidence of this occurred at Bash at the Beach 96. You know the event. This was the legendary PPV where Hulk Hogan turned his back on the fans, siding with Hall and Nash to form the NWO. Picture it: Savage is down in the center of the ring, Sting is down outside the ring, Hall and Nash are both down as well. Suddenly, a massive pop as Hogan makes his way out to the ring! Most people are thinking "Now those Outsiders are gonna get it!"

The announcers are excited too. They are so thrilled to see Hogan coming down to save the day. Except for Heenan, who utters the words "But which side is he on?"

Huh?

Ok, sure, the whole build to this point was "Who is the third man?" But no one had even speculated that it might be Hogan, it was one of the biggest shocks in the history of the business. And yet Heenan, in his desire to show how damn smart he was, almost blew the whole thing. Incredibly selfish and unprofessional, in my opinion.

I am interested in your thoughts. If you agree with me, explain why. If you think I'm full of it, explain why. I look forward to (hopefully) some good debates.

While that quote from Heenan is brought up frequently from that PPV as a topic of controversy, I give him a pass on it. It was Heenan's gimmick to despise everything about Hulk Hogan. In character, he despised Hogan in the WWF, and he carried that hatred of him to WCW. They never got along.

Heenan was just being typical Heenan.

If I was a casual fan, it wouldn't have spoiled a damn thing for me. I would have chalked it up to The Brain simply being The Brain.

Now, was Heenan over-rated in general for his entire career? Looking at this objectively .... Absolutely not. The man deserves all the praise he gets.

When you look at what a manager should be or what an announcer SHOULD BE ... you look at this man, who set the standard.

As TM said above, regarding Heenan and Rude ... it was a Package Deal. They were awesome together. Same with Heenan and Perfect. It is true that managers shouldn't overshadow the wrestlers ... but I don't feel Heenan did that with Perfect or Rude. If anything, Heenan drew me further into their feuds, more than anything else.

Now, thanks to mentality like yours, Vince has made "manager" a dirty word in wrestling. I'm going to just tell it like it is. Today's translators, advisors, stylists ... whatever you want to call them ... ABSOLUTELY SUCK compared to the managers of Yesterday. Guys like Tony Atlas and Ranjin Singh add ABSOLUTELY ZERO to the matches. WWE doesn't make you care about them ... so in turn ... I don't care about the wrestlers they are affiliated with.

Back to Heenan, though ... in Vince McMahon's own words on the WWE Managers DVD ... "Bobby was the Best."

 

[JerryvonKramer]

The point that Heenan drew heat for himself and not his wrestler is not really valid because that is the way all managers worked. Being associated with a manager was enough to turn someone heel.

Now a manager has two main practical uses: 1. to further the heelishness of an already over heel (by helping with cheap finishes etc.) and 2. to generate heat for a worker who doesn't have great mic skills -- it gives people a reason to hate them by association.

So for 1. you've got people like Perfect and Rude, who are great on their own and only slightly enhanced by Bobby. And for 2. you've got the likes of Haku and The Barbarian, who were decent enough in the ring but had no mic skills.

What did Jimmy Hart do any differently? Heenan did the same role as any other manager, he just did it better than anyone else.

 

[RVDgurl]

I'm gonna have to disagree with this topic. Personally, I think Heenan was the greatest manager of all time. As far as I can remember, Heenan was the first true comedic heel. He was the grandfather, if you will, of that kind of gimmick. He was innovative. We may be able to look back at his spots now and think that it was corny, but what he was doing was fresh and different at the time. The art of the comedic heel has evolved into a more raunchy style, while Heenan's role of comedic heel was more on the goofy side. Back than it was brilliant. And I can still watch clips of him- whether he is at ringside or behind the announce table- and be blown away by his performance. I still laugh.

 

[pyrusane]

Ok, let me address the intelligent responses.

If anything Bobby Heenan is underrated.

Obviously, this one doesn't qualify as intelligent. Heenan is widely regarded as the greatest manager of all time. You call him underrated. You will therefore be ignored.

And a great manager, he always managed the greatest heels, and ever since he got sick and stopped, wrestling went downhill and just hearing him and Gorilla Monsoon announce made wrestling so much better and fun to watch, u never know what Heenan would say next..

And your reasons to support this? Actually, let me address this point, along with...

The point that Heenan drew heat for himself and not his wrestler is not really valid because that is the way all managers worked. Being associated with a manager was enough to turn someone heel.

Now a manager has two main practical uses: 1. to further the heelishness of an already over heel (by helping with cheap finishes etc.) and 2. to generate heat for a worker who doesn't have great mic skills -- it gives people a reason to hate them by association.

So for 1. you've got people like Perfect and Rude, who are great on their own and only slightly enhanced by Bobby. And for 2. you've got the likes of Haku and The Barbarian, who were decent enough in the ring but had no mic skills.

EXACTLY!!! Perfect and Rude had absolutely no need for him, yet there he was, stealing their heat. I don't believe he added to them in any way. Just an opinion, yours may vary.

And lets be honest...why in the blue hell did Ric Flair of all people need Heenan??? Answer: he didn't. Heenan inserted himself into the Flair debut because he was a spotlight ****e, plain and simple. As a manager, he wanted all the heat for himself.

Again, I don't dislike Heenan, I just don't hold him in as high esteem as everyone else.

 

[JerryvonKramer]

It's not all just about heat though. I agree with you that both Rude and Perfect would have been just as over without Heenan, both proved that in their subsequent careers.

But it's all about cultivating a certain image. Best example I can think of is Virgil. Now, clearly, DiBiase was miles better in the ring and on the mic than Virgil. He was a glorified extra. But the image of that character having a bodybuard to watch his back just fitted in with his persona. Would DiBiase have generated less heat without Virgil? I doubt it, but Virgil certainly helped his gimmick.

Same with Rude, Perfect, and Flair being managed by The Brain. It made suited each of their images to have "the smartest man in wrestling" taking care of business for them. Out of the three, I'd say Rude probably needed him the least -- his image didn't gain all that much by having Heenan in his corner. But Perfect got "the Perfect manager", and it suits Flair's character down to the ground to have someone like Heenan in his employ. Remember he had Perfect as an "executive consultant" too. Flair's always been about being a fly, almost corporate kinda guy who wants to take over things -- and that sort of person would have Perfect and Heenan watching their backs.

So, managers are not only devices for heat. The whole thing comes as a package. It can be seen most viably in wrestler-manager partnerships in which the manager doesn't really do any mic work, where it's all about image: Yokozuna and Mr. Fuji, or Kamala and Kim Chee, or Macho Man and Miss Elizabeth (she was there mainly to make him look "Macho").

I think you might be thinking too much in a "new school" sort of way, where it literally is all about heat rather than cultivating a certain character or gimmick and telling a story. Remember that, whether it's inside or outside of the ring, wrestling is about telling stories first and foremost, heat is only one aspect of that.

 

[Ambiguous Turd]

EXACTLY!!! Perfect and Rude had absolutely no need for him, yet there he was, stealing their heat. I don't believe he added to them in any way. Just an opinion, yours may vary.

And lets be honest...why in the blue hell did Ric Flair of all people need Heenan??? Answer: he didn't. Heenan inserted himself into the Flair debut because he was a spotlight ****e, plain and simple. As a manager, he wanted all the heat for himself.

Again, I don't dislike Heenan, I just don't hold him in as high esteem as everyone else.

Again, though ... I think why you are getting a lot of resistance from the rest of us is because you seem to have bought into Vince's new philosophy of when to use managers, which the rest of us don't care for.

Managers were a big part of the show in the 80's and early 90's. I obviously don't have to tell you that almost ALL the heels had managers back in the day.

Now, did all those heels NEED managers? No, of course, not. But like has been pointed out, they are part of the overall show.

Get out of the mentality that Managers ARE ONLY NEEDED when someone doesn't have good mic skills or has problems getting over. Get INTO THE MENTALITY that managers are part of the enjoyment of the overall product.

They are there (or should I say, they were once there to):

1) Add an element of drama to the matches, by various methods of interference, drawing heat from the Audience and pulling them into the match.

2) Provide enjoyment to the crowd, when the Face has the opportunity to deliver some shots to the Manager.

3) Yes, occasionally help wrestlers who had difficulty getting over to make fans care about them.

4) Wrestlers that were already over (Randy Savage, Ted Dibiase, Mr. Perfect, Ric Flair, Rick Rude) ... the manager enhanced the promos and performances even more.

Don't look at a Heel having a manager as a bad thing. It was a great thing.

Managers were colorful personalities back in the day. To be honest, they were one of the things that actually pulled me into wrestling, to begin with. Seeing colorful personalities like Bobby Heenan, Jimmy Hart, Slick, Jim Cornette, Paul Heyman, Sensational Sherri, Mr. Fuji, Paul Bearer.

People cared about them and they cared about the wrestlers they managed.

Today, we have Ranjin Singh and Tony Atlas. People could care less about them, because they have zero personality. Plus, WWE doesn't focus on them whatsoever. So, if one of their purposes is to help their wrestler get over ... but fans don't care about them, how is that helping the wrestler, at all, in the long run?

Managers are part of a package deal. Together, with the wrestlers they manage, they make the whole gimmick entertaining and enjoyable, by way of the purposes listed above.

 

[pyrusane]

So first off, my apologies to MattMoses and Lord Sidious. When I didn't include your posts in my response this morning, I didn't mean to imply that they were not intelligent responses, I was simply pressed for time.

Two points I want to address here. The first is from MattMoses, regarding BatB 96. I understand that Heenan has long been the anti-Hogan. The feud between these two was a big part of my childhood, so I understand him not exactly being thrilled to see Hulk coming out. But the particular comment of "But which side is he on?" just seems so out of context, even for him.

Now, on to the "manager mentality" I am accused of having. I fully understand the role that managers played in the 80s. Jimmy Hart played it well, Fuji played it well. Slick, Sherri, Elizabeth...all great at what they did. Hell, I'm not even denying that Heenan was great too. But I still think that he worked so hard to get himself over that at times it detracted from his talent.

I'm not trying to convince anybody. You can disagree with me all you want, and it won't hurt my feelings. I just put this out there to get others opinions on the topic. It seems that most people disagree.

 

[WrestlingHistorian]

Bobby Heenan was one of the best managers this sport has ever seen and one hell of a color commentary man, he really was an amazing piece of talent and it makes me sad when I see him these days and the way he looks and talks. Heenan will always be remembered because of his classic heel ways and his personality which is one of the best the sport has ever seen.

 

[Mr. First Name Basis]

The work Heenan did with Monsoon was brilliant. I could watch those two guys work all day, never mind the wrestling. I miss Monsoon. He would have been a great heel in this day and age.

He also lived about 10 mins from where I grew up in South Jersey. I remember when his son died on the NJ turnpike. Very tragic.

Heenan was the best!

 

[gers09]

Bobby the brain heenan is by far the greatest manger ever imo

he drew heat for his guys because people hated him that is a talent how many mangers could do that and one of few mangers who have only been a heel this is a guy who got booed by just looking over his shoulder everyone wanted him to get beat up i will never forget after hogan beat king kong bundy and hulk got heenan in the ring and in the cage

but at the end of the day he was a guy who we all loved to hate and in a way hated to love and in the last few years he has been very unlucky for health reasons i am glad he is doin well and altho. i didnt like him if i was a wrestler and was to have a manger no question it woulld be the great BOBBY THE BRAIN HEENAN

 

[Milkyway!]

During the time at which Hulk Hogan entered the arena for this ppv to open up some cans of whoop ass, no one was even paying attention to what the brain was saying. It was a sublimal effect if anything, I don't recall this arguement being brought up once, until like 2-3 years ago myself. It wasn't even noticed until then. Its silly to think that one quote, defines Bobby Heenans career, and makes him overrated.

Anyone associated with The Brain was instantly over as a heel. Its just like if Ted Dibiase Sr came and started managing Ted Dibiase Jr on RAW next week. Sr would be garnaring tons of publicity, and in the process this would rub off onto his son, and he would be instantly over himself. Sometimes a rub, is better than a manager themselves.

Shawn Michaels, during the start of his career with the association of Sensational Sherri, Shawn Michaels got over as a huge heel, going by "The Heartbreak Kid." Which if you've seen RAW in the past few years, still stands as Shawns gimmick today. I'm willing to bet had Shawn Michaels never had associated with Sherri, his career would be in a complete 180 degree angle.

With the association of someone or something that is allready hugely over, an up and coming wrestler, or a wrestler thats just having trouble breaking through the glass ceiling, can come through the ranks twice as fast. I could keep going and going on examples of why a hugely over manager, got a youngster over in their career, and gave them their big break so to speak.

 

[supersayian]

this guy was one of the greatest heel managers ever in wrestling. he is top 3 for sure. look at all the people he worked with that speaks for itself. Yeah i would say he did try to hard to get his character over but he did it well. he wanted to be in the spotlight with the wrestlers and he did that. for that i tip my hat to the man. that is unheard of to draw so much heat. No he did not need to draw from other wrestlers he could do that on his own. he was for sure the best color commentator of all time. him and Monsoon never get old. as much as i respect JR and King for there work they are nothing compared to what these two were. if many of us have not seen much or heard of the man called the Brain there is a DVD out for greatest managers of all time. he is on there and explained in great detail. He is very much respected by me and other fans as he should be. he had the biggest wrestling family of guys in history none bigger.

 

[mr.davidson]

Bobby was a great manager


on t.v he had a great persona and in the ring he could wrestle... and though u may think he tried to take the heat for himself... if he did do that It was well deserved....

Iam sure he did do more for his wrestlers then just steal their heat ... I mean look at ANDRE the Gaint... In his later years alot of wrestlers have stated in shoot interviews he was always in a pissy mood and iam sure bobby took alot of that heat and dealt with the gaint off screen to keep him in a good mood...

SO i mean off screen iam sure he help the boys out alot to.... he had a good eye for the bussiness and all of his wrestlers probably benifited off that...

If you watch the WWE DVD on the Warrior Bobby has really good stories about him and the Warrior and the Warrior and Andre.... I believe after watching that DVD that Bobby has a real respect for the bussiness and even for Hulk Hogan.....

Really anything he may have stolen from his staff was probably given back to them 10 fold....


in the End he is a great manager and a great talent that has left his mark in the wrestling world

 

[gers09]

this thread is proof that bobby heenan was great when was the last time we saw him on tv in 2004 when was the last time we saw him in full character as the brain at wm X7 thats how gd he was we still talk about him we still remmber him and i have said it b4 we love him BOBBY THE BRAIN HEENAN WILL NEVER EVER BE FORGOTEN BY ANY ONE WHO HAS EVER SAW HIM

 

[JenovasWitness]

In all honesty, I don't think Bobby Heenan could help stealing heat from people. He was just that damn good at what he did. When it came to ad libbing lines during commentary, wrestling in a weasel suit or referring to people as humanoids, everything that the Brain did was entertaining.

And that's just Heenan's M.O. I think everything he did, he had the mindset that he was going to entertain people, whether it be by his humorous comments or by making a buffoon of himself.

 

[pyrusane]

I can't believe people have started posting in this thread again. I figured it was dead three months ago.

It appears that everyone is pretty unanimous in saying Heenan deserved all of the praise he got. I still don't entirely agree, but I won't try to change anyone's mind. The only reason I made this thread was to create discussion, and at least I accomplished that.