Paul Heyman is no Bobby Heenan

[FlairFan2003]

You're missing a major point... The NWA guys like Lex and Flair in particular but also Rude and Hennig were NOT known in New York and by their fans to a level where they could "get over" themselves. Rude was put straight with Heenan and touted as a major signing but Heenan also helped with the whole presentation of the character, Rude wasn't someone who the WWE fans would buy going straight into Andre's Survivor main event team or beating Warrior for the IC without Bobby...

After that time Heenan was the "big debut" guy, no one knew who Lex Luger was unless they watched the NWA as well or read Apter mags... but when he did just an interview at 8 as a Heenan scoop and his debut a few months later at the Rumble it was instantly big news and the fans bought Luger immediately. Razor got the same rub by being paired with Heenan to team with Ric... think about it, he went from AWA Tag champ to WCW Worldwide fodder to main eventing Survivor Series on his debut teaming with Ric Flair and Flair's debut angle with the belt only actually worked cos of Heenan's putting him over... if Flair had walked in without Heenan, no one would have got it...

Hall wasn't paired with Heenan initially, he was on TV for over a month in vignettes proclaiming his arrival to hype his debut and it had nothing to do with Heenan. He was only paired briefly with Flair in the storyline so he could do a short run of house shows vs Savage while WWE shifted its main event focus to Flair-Warrior. Other than briefly helping Flair at the end of 92 beat up Warrior and do the tag match at S-Series he wasn't linked with Heenan at all, and by that point Heenan was almost never on TV in a managerial role, Curt Henning was.


No true debut has been given to Heyman of any weight... if for example he ends up managing Adrian Neville or KENTA, Devitt or Steen (or all of them) then yeah, you can compare them.

You live in a sheltered world if you don’t think wrestling fans knew who Rude, Luger, or Flair were before they went to WWE. You realize that Flair was #1 or #2 top draw in wrestling 8 out of 10 years in the 1980s ? Rude had been a major star prior to WWE, Luger even bigger. Luger main evented Starrcades and Great American Bash’s, you would have to be living under a rock or maybe be 5 years old at the time not to know who those guys were before their WWE debuts.

Heenan’s character was that he made guys champions, as such as was alternately teamed with both super stars everyone knew (Flair, Andre) and up & comers (Henning, Warlord, Barbarian, etc). There is no doubt you gained by being associated with him. Just like Luger gained immensely by being paired with JJ. Dillon and Flair in 1987.

Flair’s initial Real World’s Champion Angle could have worked with almost anyone in the beginning, the whole premise of the angle was that everyone watching WWE TV knew what that Gold Belt was and who wore it. I agree Heenan was a great choice to carry the belt for a month hyping the debut, but that had more to do with his long time storyline association as Hulk Hogan’s arch nemesis, who even with Andre couldn’t destroy Hulka-Mania. If anyone would bring the Gold Belt and the man who wore it to WWE it made sense to be him because no one historically was linked as wanting to destroy Hogan. However, Flair coming in sold itself, it just as easily could have been Jimmy Hart or almost anyone else carrying the belt for a month on TV, the initial angle was predicated on the fact everyone watching recognized the belt and the champ and would be interested seeing him in WWE.

 

[FlairFan2003]

Can't agree, Heenan could take bumps aswell as doing the great promos etc whereas a Heyman isn't really much of a bump taker and I don't think he tells a story in the ring like Heenan did.

Heyman took plenty of bumps, even wrestling in some matches, back in the day, remember he's been a manager since about 1986, he's been around a very long time.

 

[Bythedockofthebay]

You're missing a major point... The NWA guys like Lex and Flair in particular but also Rude and Hennig were NOT known in New York and by their fans to a level where they could "get over" themselves. Rude was put straight with Heenan and touted as a major signing but Heenan also helped with the whole presentation of the character, Rude wasn't someone who the WWE fans would buy going straight into Andre's Survivor main event team or beating Warrior for the IC without Bobby... that time spent with him elevated him so when he went to WCW he didn't NEED Heyman to get over... he was way over... but his being in the Alliance as the "crown jewel" helped Heyman and the others more than Rude.

Rude wasn't some unknown rookie and even if he was in the 80's he had the look and the verbal skills to get himself over. You ever wonder why the Barbarian and Haku never hit the success level of a Rick Rude or Mr. Perfect? It wasn't because they didn't have the skill. It's because they couldn't get themselves over. I could go on and on but truly Heenan didn't get people over that didn't already have the skill to. Sure Heenan helped and was great, but truthfully Heenan needed that. Sure Heenan got some guys to be hated but truthfully you think the fans wouldn't have hated Rude without him? Please, it was easy to make people hate you in the 80's, go against Hogan, Savage or Warrior and you're a heel and hated. Not difficult.

Hennig was another who needed a manager, look back at Mania V when he fought Owen/The Blazer... no ring music, no manager, the only part of the package there was the neon tights... The Genius helped cos the Heenan Family was full but when the time was right Curt was moved to Heenan and that is truly where Mr. Perfect became a major player... it's no coincidence his 2 IC titles came under Heenan's tutelage, much as Axel's did under Heyman because they knew each other well from Curt's youth and the AWA more than Heenan's actual skills... but at that time getting into the Heenan Family (or leaving it) was a major deal and if someone with that talent has a personal connection to you, it works... the best duos in wrestling always have had that. Good as Rude was, he was always gonna hit that eventually, he needed the boost at the start...Curt needed Heenan to hit the heights he did and he was never the same or as good without him, both guys are equivalent to Brock who wouldn't have in 02 and today doesn't work without Heyman.

Apparently you never saw Henning in AWA, because dude was a world champion, not to mention had amazing verbal skills and athletic ability. Saying Curt needed Heenan is insulting, and comparing his verbal skills to Brock's is a joke. You can like old school as much as you want but comparing what Heyman did for Brock and what Heenan did for Curt is just ludicrous

After that time Heenan was the "big debut" guy, no one knew who Lex Luger was unless they watched the NWA as well or read Apter mags... but when he did just an interview at 8 as a Heenan scoop and his debut a few months later at the Rumble it was instantly big news and the fans bought Luger immediately. Razor got the same rub by being paired with Heenan to team with Ric... think about it, he went from AWA Tag champ to WCW Worldwide fodder to main eventing Survivor Series on his debut teaming with Ric Flair and Flair's debut angle with the belt only actually worked cos of Heenan's putting him over... if Flair had walked in without Heenan, no one would have got it...

LOLOLOLOLOL Yes no one would have ever known who lex luger was. Without Heenan I mean Lex would've just been a wash in WWF. Wait he was a wash in WWF. No to mention the fact you just claimed Ric Flair without Bobby wouldn't have worked...... Ummm except for everyone who watched ANY wrestling had been clamoring for Flair vs Hogan for almost a decade. Flair had enough skill to walk into WWF and do get over and holding that title that was on his shoulder meant more than Heenan.

Heyman has never been that influential guy effectively onscreen unless he knows you well and as someone said a lot of his heat is on him first, THEN the guy he works with... Heenan got heat for both at the same time and in equal measures... guys were hated cos they were with Heenan but also because they were good enough to be with him... Fans would want to love Rick Rude, Perfect or Andre but couldn't cos of "that damn weasel".

So everyone would've loved Andre after he turned on Hogan? So people would've loved being called sweat hogs if Heenan wasn't around. Henning's perfect angle and downplaying hogan would've have got him cheered? I don't buy it. Heenan was great, but he never had the impact on anyone's career that Heyman had with Brock.

No true debut has been given to Heyman of any weight... if for example he ends up managing Adrian Neville or KENTA, Devitt or Steen (or all of them) then yeah, you can compare them.

Brock Lesnar.

 

[THTRobtaylor]

You are definitely overstating WWE fans of the era and their "knowledge" of outside wrestling. Some may have had access to other promotions but the majority didn't. The majority were kids who never watched the UWF to know who a Ted DiBiase or Jim Duggan were and WWF didn't WANT people to know that Jim Duggan was a vicious heel there... cos their version wasn't going to be. Information was VERY scarce in those days unless you actively looked into things, stuff that is on Wikipedia today was only found through the sheets that you had to pay for or 900 numbers. There was no internet and what infor there was was jealously guarded as part of Kayfabe. The fans Vince wanted for his product were not those who followed other promotions, or if they did he wanted them to tune out of them immediately to his... thus someone like Rude was a WCCW star for sure, but unless you had regular access to that show or had kept up with Texas goings on once Hulkamania started you didn't know him and if you had you would not have perceived him as an instant main eventer as the WWE pushed him. If you were that fan, Vince didn't care about you... he cared about the kids, parents and new fans who didn't... so putting Rude with Heenan was his "shortcut" to making a midcarder from Texas a main eventer.


You make fun but I am seriously doubting you were around... if you were you'd know that they had to introduce the new talents with vignettes etc for a reason... not cos the fans were smart and needed to get used to a new gimmick but cos they had no clue who this or that talent were and why they were coming in...

I did see Hennig in the AWA and he was not as "good" as you make out, if he was then the AWA would not have been in the trouble it was. Just as Martel was a former AWA champion, it didn't translate when you came to the WWF... that Martel was a former roommate of Hogan was more to do with his success or longevity than the AWA title ever was.

Some like Luger had a little more in their locker, but it still needed to be introduced right. He was not a "household name" until the WWE unless you followed wrestling... likewise for Ric Flair.

You say Brock's debut was important and perhaps it's the closest they gave to Heyman... but they didn't "give it to him" because they felt Paul would help him, watch the documentary and Heyman tells you, basically they clicked as friends and they asked Paul to ride with Brock and mentor him and then it went on screen... Brock had the machine behind him no matter what, Heyman was just icing on the cake...

 

[Bythedockofthebay]

You are definitely overstating WWE fans of the era and their "knowledge" of outside wrestling. Some may have had access to other promotions but the majority didn't. The majority were kids who never watched the UWF to know who a Ted DiBiase or Jim Duggan were and WWF didn't WANT people to know that Jim Duggan was a vicious heel there... cos their version wasn't going to be. Information was VERY scarce in those days unless you actively looked into things, stuff that is on Wikipedia today was only found through the sheets that you had to pay for or 900 numbers. There was no internet and what infor there was was jealously guarded as part of Kayfabe. The fans Vince wanted for his product were not those who followed other promotions, or if they did he wanted them to tune out of them immediately to his... thus someone like Rude was a WCCW star for sure, but unless you had regular access to that show or had kept up with Texas goings on once Hulkamania started you didn't know him and if you had you would not have perceived him as an instant main eventer as the WWE pushed him. If you were that fan, Vince didn't care about you... he cared about the kids, parents and new fans who didn't... so putting Rude with Heenan was his "shortcut" to making a midcarder from Texas a main eventer.

I never said Rude was known, I'm saying he was a natural star. And he was a big time impact.

You make fun but I am seriously doubting you were around... if you were you'd know that they had to introduce the new talents with vignettes etc for a reason... not cos the fans were smart and needed to get used to a new gimmick but cos they had no clue who this or that talent were and why they were coming in...

No I'm making fun of the fact that you're saying WCW a nationally sydicated program at the time wasn't seen. Lex Luger didn't go to WWF until 1993, after he'd been a headliner at Starcade and other pay per views which were clearly national. I do understand what you're saying but it doesn't make sense. Luger was on national TV in WCW, he was known, he was a world champion. It wasn't regional at this point. Most regions had or were dying out at that point. WCW and WWF were both national at that point so saying Luger wasn't known is idiotic and just flat out wrong. He was a former world champion in a national televised company. I doubt many people were going, OMG who is this guy!He debuted at the ROYAL Rumble. He was a big deal and people knew exactly who he was.

I did see Hennig in the AWA and he was not as "good" as you make out, if he was then the AWA would not have been in the trouble it was. Just as Martel was a former AWA champion, it didn't translate when you came to the WWF... that Martel was a former roommate of Hogan was more to do with his success or longevity than the AWA title ever was.

So one guy saves a company? Doesn't matter how good one man is, without a great supporting cast (which at that time AWA didn't have a great one) It wouldn't matter how good Henning was. It wasn't going to happen.

Some like Luger had a little more in their locker, but it still need d to be introduced right. He was not a "household name" until the WWE unless you followed wrestling... likewise for Ric Flair.

So Luger who had toured the world, been world champion of a national company that was broadcast as such wasn't known? K I call bullshit. People especially wrestling fans knew who luger was. And as far as Flair is concerned I'm not even going there. If you think Flair wasn't already a HOFer, a guy who was known all over the world, then I can't even have this argument.

You say Brock's debut was important and perhaps it's the closest they gave to Heyman... but they didn't "give it to him" because they felt Paul would help him, watch the documentary and Heyman tells you, basically they clicked as friends and they asked Paul to ride with Brock and mentor him and then it went on screen... Brock had the machine behind him no matter what, Heyman was just icing on the cake...

Umm but he was given to him, and not to mention Brock had more on him then anyone but flair. Within months of debuting Brock was the world champion. Dominate and undefeated. And the machine being behind Brock only intensifies Heyman's effect on Brock's career. Because if Brock flopped like Luger and others had under Heenan Heyman's not look at like he is now. Saying that Steen, Devitt, or KENTA will have a bigger debut then him is beyond insane. Comparing Steen to Luger, or Kenta to Flair is a joke which is essentially what you are doing. And with the whole Heenan got people over just by being with them, you're not taking into consideration the times. CM Punk and Paul Heyman would've been universally cursed out for his comments about Paul Bearer and mocking his death during Heenan's time. But people still cheered him in his WM match against Taker. It's harder to get over as a heel now a days and that's a fact. Guys like Austin who became the biggest face in WWE history (albeit for a short time) would've been universally hated by fans in the 80's. You're just not making sense to me. You're talking about big time debut's and say Neville and Steen would be a big deal while undermining Ric Flair and Lex Luger (who were on Cable TV weekly) and advertised weekly on Turner Broadcasting, then saying Brock's debut wasn't a big deal while admitting the machine was behind him. It doesn't make sense. It sounds foolish to me. You think the machine wasn't behind Luger? You think they weren't behind Andre, or Flair? Come on, I get you love classic wrestling and Heenan but you clearly have revisionist history on your side because that's the only way most of this makes sense. Brock is a bigger deal than Luger, and the only reason he isn't a bigger deal than flair is because of Flairs NWA and WCW days which apparently don't count in your mind because no one knew who Ric Flair was without the WWF. Sorry not buying it.