Vince McMahon and HHH: Is it time for a compromise between the 2 philosophy

[Psykohurricane55]

I Was Listen to Jim Cornette Podcast last week and at one point, he brought up that Somebody send him the NXT Numbers that WWE had Release recently, so when i went and check this on WWE corporate website and what i read was real, which surprised me. So i got me wondering, is time for Vince Mcmahon and HHH to have that ''come to Jesus'' meeting and have some sort of compromise on how they see the future of the WWE Product because cleary both version aren't working right now.

Vince Mcmahon version as been outdated for a while now, it don't have to be a scientist to figure this out. While their still turning up a profit and a big one at that, tickets sales for live events and TV tapings are down, merchandise sales is down and the product is suffering because of it. Vince version is pretty much 90% personality, 10% in ring, and you can clearly see that by who is pushing.

On the other hand, you have HHH. The guy behind NXT. Is philosophy, is 90% In ring and 10% personality. He want to pretty much want to be like and indy company. NXT while very popular hasn't made a profit for the company since they started touring in fact, They loss more money in 2017 then in 2016. If the company was is own instead of part of a corporation, it would be label a complete failure and probably would near shutdown. Yet the product is getting better every year and the buzz around the brand is getting bigger. So my take is that while that's the case, the fact that HHH is only going after the smart fans is probably what's hurting the bottom line of the product. Either that or the touring in small building plus having too many guys and girls at the performance center is costing them a lot of money. Either way, the brand isn't a monetary success for WWE either and that would hurt HHH in the long run if Vince decide to have HHH replace him when he's gone from WWE.

So here the point, you need to have a change at how WWE present their product but they need to find a way to make the chance so that it can attract as much fans from different age group and sexes as possible without alienating anybody in the process. So i feel that you need to have a compromise between presenting a product centered around personalities and a product that's pretty much just wrestling oriented. Have a good balance between the 2 instead of all out of each extreme like they are right now. I think we're near a renaissance in popularity in wrestling but if Both guy don't adapt and find a way to present a different product then everybody else out there, but that'S up to them to make it happen.

 

[THTRobtaylor]

I think it has already happened to an extent with the Cruiser division being handed to Trips.

Ultimately it comes down to what Vince's endgame is as the time will ever more quickly approach. People assumed Vince would be handing the company over but there are increasing rumors that he may sell before that...Fox are interested by all accounts and Vince himself I am sure would sell to Disney in a heartbeat if there was a seat on their board on offer.

Things are almost back where they were in 1994 at the moment, the product as a whole isn't working and while there might be a clash of egos or philosophies the reality is that the business is simply going cold again...and without REAL competition the WWE is increasingly going to lose share to other entertainment options... look how much Black Panther made this weekend and how much it will likely make next for example... people taking a family to that movie may not buy the PPV or watch the movie instead.

There could be a renaissance, but it's been driven by a preference for more indy style shows rather than anything the WWE can actually do. If CM Punk DOES decide to wrestle again at the Cody/Bucks show then WWE will be, for the first time in years NOT be the place to be for talent.

NXT as a concept is fine, but as Cornette said, he could have done better had he been given 16m a year to lose. I have a feeling Jarrett's HOF/return could play into this. I could see them cutting NXT down a bit and setting up a second territory based on the GFW name that Jarrett has a modest budget for, say 10m a year. Jarrett has the experience of India and the UK TV markets for example, so it could be a quick way to get the UK TV show on the air...and they signed the new Indian guy for a reason too.

We're not quite at panic stations yet, but WWE HAS to go all out to revamp their product now...as the TV deals are up next year and if they get less than they did last time they have to be a) ready for that and b) able to demonstrate they are worth the same, if not more.

A lot of the discussions backstage now will be geared to that rather than the overall philosophy of the company... unless Vince has flat out said to Shane, Trips and Steph the plan is to sell... in which case there may be some discussions around can the 3 buy the company as Vince himself did. Make no mistake though, Disney come in, Vince sells.

 

[GhettoV1]

I see 50% Shane and 50% Triple-H and Stephanie can work out well.

 

[Papa Pillman]

I don't see how anyone can see NXT as 90% in-ring and 10% personality.

You have big personalities in prominent positons all over NXT, basically as many as you get on the main roster(and hell, the promotion is way more character driven than SmackDown specifically); so I don't see where you got your fantasy breakdown of the show's lack of personality. And as for the wrestling, while a little more fast paced than the main roster, you still have very WWE-centric wrestling with heavily watered down move sets and overly formulaic match layouts. And basically as much time is wasted with non-wrestling segments, recaps, and over-shilling advertisements for other WWE properties that are irrelevant to what you're watching. NXT is at best 5-10% more wrestle-centric than the main roster.

 

[d_henderson1810]

I Was Listen to Jim Cornette Podcast last week and at one point, he brought up that Somebody send him the NXT Numbers that WWE had Release recently, so when i went and check this on WWE corporate website and what i read was real, which surprised me. So i got me wondering, is time for Vince Mcmahon and HHH to have that ''come to Jesus'' meeting and have some sort of compromise on how they see the future of the WWE Product because cleary both version aren't working right now.

Vince Mcmahon version as been outdated for a while now, it don't have to be a scientist to figure this out. While their still turning up a profit and a big one at that, tickets sales for live events and TV tapings are down, merchandise sales is down and the product is suffering because of it. Vince version is pretty much 90% personality, 10% in ring, and you can clearly see that by who is pushing.

On the other hand, you have HHH. The guy behind NXT. Is philosophy, is 90% In ring and 10% personality. He want to pretty much want to be like and indy company. NXT while very popular hasn't made a profit for the company since they started touring in fact, They loss more money in 2017 then in 2016. If the company was is own instead of part of a corporation, it would be label a complete failure and probably would near shutdown. Yet the product is getting better every year and the buzz around the brand is getting bigger. So my take is that while that's the case, the fact that HHH is only going after the smart fans is probably what's hurting the bottom line of the product. Either that or the touring in small building plus having too many guys and girls at the performance center is costing them a lot of money. Either way, the brand isn't a monetary success for WWE either and that would hurt HHH in the long run if Vince decide to have HHH replace him when he's gone from WWE.

So here the point, you need to have a change at how WWE present their product but they need to find a way to make the chance so that it can attract as much fans from different age group and sexes as possible without alienating anybody in the process. So i feel that you need to have a compromise between presenting a product centered around personalities and a product that's pretty much just wrestling oriented. Have a good balance between the 2 instead of all out of each extreme like they are right now. I think we're near a renaissance in popularity in wrestling but if Both guy don't adapt and find a way to present a different product then everybody else out there, but that'S up to them to make it happen.

Firstly, I don't agree with Vince's vision being 90% personality and 10% wrestling, if today's RAW was anything to go by, where we had a 2 hour Gauntlet Match and few in-ring promos.

Also, if Triple H's philosophy is right, then ROH would be competing with WWE, instead of not being mentioned in the conversation when it comes to ratings. TNA would have been more competition against WWE, since one of the few things TNA consistently did right was have wrestlers put on good matches.

The fact is, you may not agree with Vince, but what he offers sells. So he will keep doing it if it keeps selling for him.

You can't just rely on diehards and the smart fans to survive. If so, then ECW wouldn't have gone under. You need casual fans, and people who don't follow wrestling normally, to tune in, and colourful personalities do that.

Having great wrestling matches keeps the smart fans interested, having personalities gets the non-fans to become fans.

Now, you say that they should do both 50-50. Sounds good in theory. The problem is that smart fans mainly care about ringwork, and not story or personality, and the casual fan only cares about the stories and personality, and not so much the ringwork. If more people wanted both things, then you could do this, but people think WWE should only cater to them only, and screw everyone else, so no-one is prepared to compromise and embrace the other half of the equation.

 

[d_henderson1810]

I think it has already happened to an extent with the Cruiser division being handed to Trips.

Ultimately it comes down to what Vince's endgame is as the time will ever more quickly approach. People assumed Vince would be handing the company over but there are increasing rumors that he may sell before that...Fox are interested by all accounts and Vince himself I am sure would sell to Disney in a heartbeat if there was a seat on their board on offer.

Things are almost back where they were in 1994 at the moment, the product as a whole isn't working and while there might be a clash of egos or philosophies the reality is that the business is simply going cold again...and without REAL competition the WWE is increasingly going to lose share to other entertainment options... look how much Black Panther made this weekend and how much it will likely make next for example... people taking a family to that movie may not buy the PPV or watch the movie instead.

There could be a renaissance, but it's been driven by a preference for more indy style shows rather than anything the WWE can actually do. If CM Punk DOES decide to wrestle again at the Cody/Bucks show then WWE will be, for the first time in years NOT be the place to be for talent.

NXT as a concept is fine, but as Cornette said, he could have done better had he been given 16m a year to lose. I have a feeling Jarrett's HOF/return could play into this. I could see them cutting NXT down a bit and setting up a second territory based on the GFW name that Jarrett has a modest budget for, say 10m a year. Jarrett has the experience of India and the UK TV markets for example, so it could be a quick way to get the UK TV show on the air...and they signed the new Indian guy for a reason too.

We're not quite at panic stations yet, but WWE HAS to go all out to revamp their product now...as the TV deals are up next year and if they get less than they did last time they have to be a) ready for that and b) able to demonstrate they are worth the same, if not more.

A lot of the discussions backstage now will be geared to that rather than the overall philosophy of the company... unless Vince has flat out said to Shane, Trips and Steph the plan is to sell... in which case there may be some discussions around can the 3 buy the company as Vince himself did. Make no mistake though, Disney come in, Vince sells.

Oh no, Henny Penny is back again, telling us that the sky is falling in.

I have heard, year after year, indy smarks predict the demise of WWE, and every year, proceed to wipe more egg off their face when it doesn't happen.

"Things are back to 1994"... Really? (as the Miz would say). The early 90's were worse than that, with corny gimmicks, Vince facing jail for drug distribution, and Billionaire Ted skits.

I see instead a lot of new fresh faces in the last few years, which has freshened the roster, and got people interested. NXT is drawing some fans in, and then they continue to follow their favourites when they go up to RAW or SD Live! Disney or Fox wouldn't even be considering buying WWE if it were as bad as you say. So apologize for your stupid comment!

Who says that their business is going cold? They are making money from many revenue streams. Also, how would they have signed someone like Ronda Rousey, if they were going broke? I doubt Rousey would be showing up unless there was a bit of coin involved. This will give mainstream media, and much more "outside" attention to WWE.

How do you know "Black Panther" made more money than WWE this week? Besides, that will only last for a week or two, when all the Marvel nerds have had their fill, then BP will drop down the list, until the next Marvel movie comes along. But WWE still goes strong, year after year. So you are saying that families might take their child to a $20 movie rather than subscribe to WWE Network and pay $9.99 a month, and get a PPV (or sometimes two a month) at that low price?

So, Punk, Cody Rhodes and the Bucks are the most talented guys in the U.S., are they? They must be, according to you, because not one person on WWE's roster holds a candle to them, IYO. Punk is in his 40's, and the Bucks couldn't get into WWE. Cody I will give you. But there are plenty of guys and girls just as talented as those four.

Jim Cornette? You listen to what he has to say. He is a four-eyed idiot who got sacked from every wrestling company he was in, and is now bitter, so all he ever does is criticize. If you care to notice, the targets of his criticism are always companies he once worked for, and got sacked from, and never ones who he never got sacked from, so I doubt you can take much stock from a guy with an obvious agenda and ax to grind. I dismiss anything Cornette says these days as coming from a bitter troll who is lashing out because everyone else doesn't think he is as talented and brilliant as he does.

If Cornette thinks he can do so much better, then he should start a wrestling company, and run it his own way. At least Jarrett and Vince have done that. They started their own company, and so make the decisions. Cornette is such a coward that he sits on podcasts and goes online and bags things and acts like he could do better, but never proves it by running his own wrestling company. If he started a wrestling company, and made it successful doing what he thinks is right, then I might give him the time of day, and admit that he knows what he is talking about.

The fact is, YOU don't like WWE at the moment, and arrogantly assume that every single person on earth thinks the same way. Well, the fact is that WWE will go on long after you are gone, and when you look back to leave, you won't see millions of people leaving as well. So, unless you can provide facts and figures on the dire state of WWE's finances, then I won't take into account what you say. Next time, when you write a post like that, add "in my opinion" so that we can take it with the grain of salt it warrants.

So, I predict that, in five, ten, fifty years time, WWE will still be around, and making money. I also predict that you will still be lurking around these boards, giving your ill-informed opinions, since I have you pegged as one of those who bags WWE, but still watches it every week (otherwise, how can you comment on something you haven't watched recently). I know it is sport to pretend that you hate WWE to fit in with the other trolls on this site, but I ain't buying it. So I lay down a challenge to you. Let's see you quit WWE cold turkey, and that means not posting about them on here anymore either (since you can't bag what you don't watch). You and your hero Jim Cornette need to put up, or shut up!

 

[Navi]

I see instead a lot of new fresh faces in the last few years, which has freshened the roster, and got people interested. NXT is drawing some fans in, and then they continue to follow their favourites when they go up to RAW or SD Live! Disney or Fox wouldn't even be considering buying WWE if it were as bad as you say.

While it's true there are a lot of fresh faces, they unfortunately all don't make it when they hit the main roster. Just look at Bayley, Adam Rose and the Ascension for example. All of them were hits in NXT, but for various reasons they haven't done well on RAW and SD Live. Just because they are over in NXT, where everyone is over, doesn't mean they will be a hit when they move up.

Who says that their business is going cold? They are making money from many revenue streams. Also, how would they have signed someone like Ronda Rousey, if they were going broke? I doubt Rousey would be showing up unless there was a bit of coin involved. This will give mainstream media, and much more "outside" attention to WWE.

TV ratings are at the lowest point in years, ticket sales for live shows are slumping. I have no idea out wweshop.com because I don't buy from there, but overall the business isn't making as much money as they were before. Maybe the addition of Rousey will help but it depends on her role and how much they are paying her. It remains to be seen.

How do you know "Black Panther" made more money than WWE this week? Besides, that will only last for a week or two, when all the Marvel nerds have had their fill, then BP will drop down the list, until the next Marvel movie comes along. But WWE still goes strong, year after year. So you are saying that families might take their child to a $20 movie rather than subscribe to WWE Network and pay $9.99 a month, and get a PPV (or sometimes two a month) at that low price?

In four days Black Panther grossed over $349 million worldwide, so I would say they made more than the WWE in the same length of time. Sure as soon as Marvel fans have had their fill that will drop off, but that will take a few weeks.

So, I predict that, in five, ten, fifty years time, WWE will still be around, and making money.

Sure they will, but they could be a lot better than they are. I think that's all anyone is saying.

 

[THTRobtaylor]

Oh no, Henny Penny is back again, telling us that the sky is falling in.

I have heard, year after year, indy smarks predict the demise of WWE, and every year, proceed to wipe more egg off their face when it doesn't happen.

"Things are back to 1994"... Really? (as the Miz would say). The early 90's were worse than that, with corny gimmicks, Vince facing jail for drug distribution, and Billionaire Ted skits.

I see instead a lot of new fresh faces in the last few years, which has freshened the roster, and got people interested. NXT is drawing some fans in, and then they continue to follow their favourites when they go up to RAW or SD Live! Disney or Fox wouldn't even be considering buying WWE if it were as bad as you say. So apologize for your stupid comment!

Who says that their business is going cold? They are making money from many revenue streams. Also, how would they have signed someone like Ronda Rousey, if they were going broke? I doubt Rousey would be showing up unless there was a bit of coin involved. This will give mainstream media, and much more "outside" attention to WWE.

How do you know "Black Panther" made more money than WWE this week? Besides, that will only last for a week or two, when all the Marvel nerds have had their fill, then BP will drop down the list, until the next Marvel movie comes along. But WWE still goes strong, year after year. So you are saying that families might take their child to a $20 movie rather than subscribe to WWE Network and pay $9.99 a month, and get a PPV (or sometimes two a month) at that low price?

So, Punk, Cody Rhodes and the Bucks are the most talented guys in the U.S., are they? They must be, according to you, because not one person on WWE's roster holds a candle to them, IYO. Punk is in his 40's, and the Bucks couldn't get into WWE. Cody I will give you. But there are plenty of guys and girls just as talented as those four.

Jim Cornette? You listen to what he has to say. He is a four-eyed idiot who got sacked from every wrestling company he was in, and is now bitter, so all he ever does is criticize. If you care to notice, the targets of his criticism are always companies he once worked for, and got sacked from, and never ones who he never got sacked from, so I doubt you can take much stock from a guy with an obvious agenda and ax to grind. I dismiss anything Cornette says these days as coming from a bitter troll who is lashing out because everyone else doesn't think he is as talented and brilliant as he does.

If Cornette thinks he can do so much better, then he should start a wrestling company, and run it his own way. At least Jarrett and Vince have done that. They started their own company, and so make the decisions. Cornette is such a coward that he sits on podcasts and goes online and bags things and acts like he could do better, but never proves it by running his own wrestling company. If he started a wrestling company, and made it successful doing what he thinks is right, then I might give him the time of day, and admit that he knows what he is talking about.

The fact is, YOU don't like WWE at the moment, and arrogantly assume that every single person on earth thinks the same way. Well, the fact is that WWE will go on long after you are gone, and when you look back to leave, you won't see millions of people leaving as well. So, unless you can provide facts and figures on the dire state of WWE's finances, then I won't take into account what you say. Next time, when you write a post like that, add "in my opinion" so that we can take it with the grain of salt it warrants.

So, I predict that, in five, ten, fifty years time, WWE will still be around, and making money. I also predict that you will still be lurking around these boards, giving your ill-informed opinions, since I have you pegged as one of those who bags WWE, but still watches it every week (otherwise, how can you comment on something you haven't watched recently). I know it is sport to pretend that you hate WWE to fit in with the other trolls on this site, but I ain't buying it. So I lay down a challenge to you. Let's see you quit WWE cold turkey, and that means not posting about them on here anymore either (since you can't bag what you don't watch). You and your hero Jim Cornette need to put up, or shut up!

Someone got out of the angry side of the bed...

The business IS going cold for WWE, ratings are down, there is legit concern over live attendances, particularly for Smackdown and the mainstream opportunities are fewer than they've been for a long time. Ronda coming in won't fix that...if they can get Gronk on a longer term basis, maybe...

More importantly, there is the TV deal issue looming... remember WWE FAILED to get the massive number they promised investors last time and settled for what in effect was a poor figure on what was anticiptated and mentioned in conference calls etc. They'd expected their rights to go like Soccer rights and it didn't happen.

That in itself was a sign of a cooling business, and it is indeed cyclical... There is however a rise in the popularity of Indie promoting and in NJPW's business... so it's a WWE problem rather than a wrestling problem.

There IS more competition than ever... as Navi pointed out, Black Panther has made more in 4 days than WWE does in a quarter. You point to drop off, but Marvel/Disney will be doing it again in 8 weeks as Infinity War hits and then again later with Ant-Man 2.

Families that used to pay to take the kids to WWE now have more choice where they spend that dollar. Marvel heroes among others are bigger draws to kids than John Cena and Roman Reigns... it is a big issue WWE is facing in making their show "must see" and more important "must spend on". Even the time commitment now is onerous. To watch the traditional output you're looking at at least 5 hours a week and now seemingly 4 hour PPV's monthly. That's a lot of time to devote to a product when you're not 100% behind it as many fans are.

Do I hate WWE? No... I get they're in a transitional phase and am pointing out that the last major one was in 1994 but that for the first time there are real signs the goal isn't for the McMahon dynasty to continue forever. Signs point to them streamlining the product for a sale... Reality is if business does fall off the cliff, there is no Monday Night Wars to save them this time, investors would bail and the company would go under. Vince is to an extent reaping what he sowed in 2001 by not keeping WCW separate and viable, and even he seems to realise that the IP of the WWE and the idea is more valuable at the minute than the revenue its shows seem to be bringing in.

The swing IS to Indie wrestling, like it or not... that Cody and the Bucks can even be putting on a show and get buzz is major, that Punk is teasing appearing is massive. In the past when a wrestler turned promoter they were generally seen as small-time outfits, even shows like House of Hardcore etc. You deride Cornette, but he was successful for a time with SMW right when WWE was "in the shit" last time... many of their "legends" today came from there, incluing Jericho and Kane. He was part of the booking team when WCW were kicking their ass and things began to turn and was a major part of OVW which again saw talents who the company now rely on come through his tutelage. He talks shit sometimes, but the guy knows the business far more than you do!

Imagine if Disney DO buy WWE.. do you think they'll disappear? hell no... there will be Cena and the like everywhere, cartoons, you name it... but it will be kid friendly for life and that will turn off many long term fans permanently and I bet you'll be one of them!

 

[Jack-Hammer]

When it comes to us analyzing the business, corporate aspect of WWE, a lot of us really don't have the first clue what we're talking about.

Revenue for 2017 increased 10% to $801.0 million, the highest in the Company’s history and up from $729.2 million in 2016.

Operating income increased 36% to $75.6 million. Adjusted OIBDA increased 40% to $111.9 million, which was within the range of Company guidance and represented all-time record performance.

Supporting the global reach of WWE content, completed multi-year distribution agreements in France, Japan, South Korea, Australia, Philippines and sub-Saharan Africa among other countries and regions.

Digital engagement continued to grow with video views up 32% to 20 billion and social media engagements up 4% to approximately 1.2 billion from the prior year.

WWE’s YouTube channel remained the #1 most viewed Sports Channel and the 2nd most viewed channel on YouTube with 20 billion lifetime views. (as of January 31, 2018)

Demonstrated the #1 selling action figure property in the U.S. ahead of Star Wars and Marvel Avengers.

Forbes named*WrestleMania*as one of the world’s top 10 most valuable sports event brands for the fourth year in a row, alongside the Super Bowl, Olympics, FIFA World Cup and NCAA Men’s Final Four.

I haven't read exactly on how much profits were, but they didn't lose money and profits are reinvested in the company. So, when you get right down to the numbers, it's really, really hard to see how WWE is in any sort of trouble whatsoever.

It's true that the days in which they drew 5 or 6 million viewers in the US are gone but, then again, numbers for pretty much every show on television are down. Even juggernauts like Game of Thrones, the Walking Dead and Monday Night Football no longer garner the sort of numbers they did only a short time ago. Of course, the decline of viewership can't all be blamed on the viewing format changes that've been going on the past few years but the possibility remains that there may be nothing WWE can do to restore those record levels of viewership. IF there is, however, then MAYBE a way to do it, at least to some degree, would be more along the lines of Triple H's approach, which is to portray WWE as more of a "sports" program where the wrestlers are in "competition" with each other becaus3 it's not happening with WWE being marketed as "sports entertainment" or as some sort of "male soap opera."