Two Heel Stables?

Optimist Prime

Arise Optimist Prime...
So you have two fairly big heel stables now at the same time. Fourtune (Fortune?) and this "They" angle stable.

Fourtune consists of Ric Flair, AJ Styles, Douglas Williams, James Storm, Kazarian, Matt Morgan, and Robert Roode.

"They" consists of Hulk Hogan, Eric Bischoff, Jeff Jarrett, Abyss, and Jeff Hardy.

Granted, Flair, Hogan, and Bischoff don't really wrestle...but that's still 12 people in two separate heel stables.

Historically, two heel stables at the same time aren't very successful as one of the heel stables always leans towards being face. We saw this with The Four Horsemen when the NWO came into town. We saw DX lean towards being face when mocking the Nation of Domination, "New" Hart Foundation, etc.

So how do these two heel stables co-exist successfully? There literally isn't even one face stable right now...so how does this pan out? Kevin Nash is supposedly retiring so his stable with Pope and Sting is going to take a huge hit if that's the case...

What do you guys think? I personally think this is fairly interesting because I have no idea what's going to happen now. Which is fairly intriguing in an era where wrestling has become quite predictable.
 
I think if they let Bischoff and Hardy especially become a true HEEL combination, have them go over RVD with Abyss in the back as an enforcer type....Hogan only in the mix here and there (don't have a clue where Jarrett fits in), and Hardy goes TRUE heel...I could see where they could boil Fortune down to Flair, AJ, Beer Money and Morgan........and let the fans turn Flair face.

Then you could have Flair and Bisch going off on promos with Flair as a face, and set up face AJ Styles vs heel Jeff Hardy PPV down the line.

It also, if they let it play out, could lead to Matt Morgan finally breaking out by being the guy who turns heel on Fortune. Then you could stick Morgan with Bisch after Hardy slides out of the picture.

Hard to see where Anderson, Angle and Joe fit in all this though. And a face Beer Money kind of screws up MCMGs face run.
 
I still think there is a lot of to come with this THEY storyline; I suspect the document Dixie signed will have something to do with signing power back over to JJ or Bischoff - if that is the case then THEY have taken "Fortunes" company and they will fight for it back - making them face.
 
I'm a new poster here but follow this website and the forum discussions here regularly. Been a "wrasslin'" fan for over 25 years now. Seen a lot of things happen. Big Florida NWA, Gordon Solie fan from back in the day. But TNA is just a trainwreck! Storylines that don't make any sense, (the whole "they" thing has been a miserable wreck), the factions, and now the "Jersey Shore" thing are just indications of how bad pro wrestling is today. I followed along online last night watching the updates of the PPV and not even watching it I was really disappointed.

1. What's the situation with Angle now that he's lost? They didn't cover it.

2. No explanation as to why Jarrett has now turned heel siding with Hogan, Bischoff, and Hardy.

3. Hardy, big draw as a face, so of course they turn him heel!

4. Predictable ends to matches like MCMG, and the Williams/Lethal match.

5. Ladies division is horrible. Even IF some consider Tara the most talented, she's the best of a very bad stable of female wrestlers.

6. I'm a big fan of Mickie James but she can't save this one.

Overall I think both WWE and TNA are terrible. Overbooked, over-produced, and the storylines are terrible and too short. Too many PPV's also spoil any hope of prolonged storylines.
 
I'm a new poster here but follow this website and the forum discussions here regularly. Been a "wrasslin'" fan for over 25 years now. Seen a lot of things happen. Big Florida NWA, Gordon Solie fan from back in the day. But TNA is just a trainwreck! Storylines that don't make any sense, (the whole "they" thing has been a miserable wreck), the factions, and now the "Jersey Shore" thing are just indications of how bad pro wrestling is today. I followed along online last night watching the updates of the PPV and not even watching it I was really disappointed.

1. What's the situation with Angle now that he's lost? They didn't cover it.

2. No explanation as to why Jarrett has now turned heel siding with Hogan, Bischoff, and Hardy.

3. Hardy, big draw as a face, so of course they turn him heel!

4. Predictable ends to matches like MCMG, and the Williams/Lethal match.

5. Ladies division is horrible. Even IF some consider Tara the most talented, she's the best of a very bad stable of female wrestlers.

6. I'm a big fan of Mickie James but she can't save this one.

Overall I think both WWE and TNA are terrible. Overbooked, over-produced, and the storylines are terrible and too short. Too many PPV's also spoil any hope of prolonged storylines.

Brian, trust me...I share a lot of your similar opinions about the way wrestling is today. But unfrotunately, they have already done so much to the point where everything has pretty much already been done without doing something illegal perhaps. We fans were spoiled rotten having come off the 80's and early 90's boom...and I don't know how old you are but being a kid and having all these cartoon character type wrestlers when you're little...it was extremely entertaining. Then it was almost as though the wrestling world was growing up with me (and others my age) because once I started getting older into my teenage years...the NWO began, we had DX, Goldberg, etc. It was just incredible. So now here we are in our late 20's (me and those same people in similar ages) and you look at all of this mediocrity and of course it doesn't compare...but almost nothing could. It's sad but it's kind of the way it is.

The thing that bothers me the most is that the newer wrestlers that lack the personality and charisma the older ones had...aren't really making much improvements in that area. It seems most wrestlers just focused primarily on their manuevers and moves and literally zero time on their character...which then results in the boredom they give off. I mean you have Rey Mysterio Jr. swinging around with a World Title belt...it's just bad.

However, I think there are a few things they could do...and a part of me wonders if Hogan's whole surgery thing was in fact one large hoax...as well as the Kevin Nash retirement thing, etc. One way to set yourself apart from the rest would be to literally do something this extraordinary I guess. But who knows.

Like I said, there really isn't much more they can do unfortunately...
 
Hmmm it is a interesting question where do they go from here with the setup of 2 heel factions especially when you have people in both factions that hate eachother.

Maybe after the EV 2.0 thing finishes up we will see a fourtune face turn to battle Hardyparty(i made up a name for the hell of it) for the fate TNA, afterall AJ will want to have the WHT again.
 
Brian, trust me...I share a lot of your similar opinions about the way wrestling is today. But unfrotunately, they have already done so much to the point where everything has pretty much already been done without doing something illegal perhaps. We fans were spoiled rotten having come off the 80's and early 90's boom...and I don't know how old you are but being a kid and having all these cartoon character type wrestlers when you're little...it was extremely entertaining. Then it was almost as though the wrestling world was growing up with me (and others my age) because once I started getting older into my teenage years...the NWO began, we had DX, Goldberg, etc. It was just incredible. So now here we are in our late 20's (me and those same people in similar ages) and you look at all of this mediocrity and of course it doesn't compare...but almost nothing could. It's sad but it's kind of the way it is.

The thing that bothers me the most is that the newer wrestlers that lack the personality and charisma the older ones had...aren't really making much improvements in that area. It seems most wrestlers just focused primarily on their manuevers and moves and literally zero time on their character...which then results in the boredom they give off. I mean you have Rey Mysterio Jr. swinging around with a World Title belt...it's just bad.

However, I think there are a few things they could do...and a part of me wonders if Hogan's whole surgery thing was in fact one large hoax...as well as the Kevin Nash retirement thing, etc. One way to set yourself apart from the rest would be to literally do something this extraordinary I guess. But who knows.

Like I said, there really isn't much more they can do unfortunately...


I believe I can point to when for me at least everything changed. IMHO Dusty Rhodes and Ric Flair circa NWA/Gordon Solie were the last great characters and storylines. I mean the apparent animosity and hatred they had as characters for each other was visible. Their promos were gold and Gordon Solie was the consumate commentator/mediator for their war. It was a storyline that didn't play out over weeks or months, but years. Then came The 4 Horsemen and "The American Dream" had an even bigger problem on his hands. But somehow, "we" believed him right? (keeping in mind that this is all fake! LoL) Then came T.A. Magnum as his Robin to "The Dreams" Batman, fighting evil wherever it was. (i.e. The 4 Horsemen.) Then Magnum gets hurt in his wreck, enter Nikita Koloff. Russia and the U.S. teaming up in the 80's? it ain't so! Didn't really work.

Fast forward to Sting and then the NWO. While I believe that was the best-managed storyline of the last 20 years, I also believe it was what eventually brought down WCW. The bloated contracts, bad actors off stage like SixPac and Scott Hall, and the Era of Attitude in WWE were all contributing factors in their demise. But here's also where I believe the booking went off the rails as well. We were led to believe that a "dark" Sting was able to fend off 8-10 guys all by himself while nearly the rest of the face roster were powerless to compete. While it was a huge hit during house shows, as some point as a tv viewer you start to say, "okay, even this isn't believable."

Then came "The Streak" with Goldberg and all common sense was thrown out the window. With all the years of run ins that sometimes caused title changes, brass knuckles, forks, and knives, now we were supposed to believe that this ex-football star was able to come into a new sport for him and dominate unlike any in the history of the business other than Andre the Giant?
Sorry but I wasn't buying it!

But it gave rise to the notion that booking had become about getting the "superstar" on your roster and booking him in some ridulous storyline for the wow factor. It became less about the character development and more about "the spear", "the stinger with his bat (which he still uses to this day.)" or "the dx chop". Just cheap pops with no long term payoff for the fans.

I'm more like a Chris Jericho wrestling fan in that I like the longer storylines that are played out bit by bit week after week. In fact, I was impressed with TNA and how they were playing out a couple of their storylines, but ultimately I knew it wouldn't be nearly as big a payoff as they promised. And I was right. The "they" storyline is just old WCW in new packaging. Sort of! Add Jeff Hardy (as Jarrett was part of the WCW promotion back in the day.) and you have your new NWO faction of today. With Nash on his way out and Sting pulling his year to year stunt to cash in, and Angle on his last couple of runs, it would be hard to pull those guys into a prolonged storyline like this. On the other hand, Hogan and Bischoff both need the pub and money to fund their offstage projects and personal issues. Either way, TNA loses in the long run as their older talents are all on the verge of retirement.

Ric Flair, Mick Foley, Kevin Nash, Kurt Angle, Jeff Jarrett, Hulk Hogan, Eric Bischoff, Team 3D, Sting, and even Jeff Hardy aren't going to be around this business much longer. What then? Jarrett becomes a backstage booker for the matches, Styles is again your top guy, and the rest are just bit players in keeping Styles world champion or in the picture.

At any rate, this business has fallen so far in the last 15 years that it's not even recognizable from what I grew up watching.
 
Hmmm it is a interesting question where do they go from here with the setup of 2 heel factions especially when you have people in both factions that hate eachother.

Maybe after the EV 2.0 thing finishes up we will see a fourtune face turn to battle Hardyparty(i made up a name for the hell of it) for the fate TNA, afterall AJ will want to have the WHT again.


I just don't see how this turns out good for TNA. Yes, short term they get a pop and probably a bump in the ratings. But longterm? What do they do with this? Hogan can barely walk. (allegedly). Bischoff has played his heel role to death; it's boring and he's gotten worse on the mic over the years, Hardy will not sell merch as a heel (and I get the impression they need the money in TNA!), and Jarrett has been down this road before? Do we really need to see the JJ strut all over again? More guitar shots in our future to keep the strap on JH?

It's a trainwreck waiting to happen. Not to mention, what happens if Hardy gets convicted on his drug charges?
 
I do believe either a face Fortune or a Fortune without Flair that ends up being faces si pretty imminent as of right now and maybe even Sting and Pope joins Fortune? May well work but still...

The Hardy court thingy going on is, as of right now, the only thing that can go wrong IMO. But if Hardy does get convicted on his drug charges I seriously think "They" might steal Anderson or the like and make them their heel WHC. In any case I hope Hardy doesn't get convicted and that maybe TNA is doing this because Hardy is closer to not getting convicted than he is to actually be behind bars... ¬.¬. *They might also throw Matt Hardy into it aswell and keep Jeff relevant if he can't be at iMPACT tapings but still...*...

I dunno =S
 
I do believe either a face Fortune or a Fortune without Flair that ends up being faces si pretty imminent as of right now and maybe even Sting and Pope joins Fortune? May well work but still...

The Hardy court thingy going on is, as of right now, the only thing that can go wrong IMO. But if Hardy does get convicted on his drug charges I seriously think "They" might steal Anderson or the like and make them their heel WHC. In any case I hope Hardy doesn't get convicted and that maybe TNA is doing this because Hardy is closer to not getting convicted than he is to actually be behind bars... ¬.¬. *They might also throw Matt Hardy into it aswell and keep Jeff relevant if he can't be at iMPACT tapings but still...*...

I dunno =S


Here's the thing that doesn't make any sense. Anderson was already set up as a semi-heel anyway. Why not complete the picture last night? Have him blast Angle and Hardy and maintain the merch sales for those 2 as faces. Anderson already has that Steve Austin type anti-hero thing working for him. Why ruin it by making him a milktoast face/heel guy who is conflicted? For the wrestling business it doesn't make any sense at all! They could even have had KA go heel then break away from the faction telling them he didn't need them to be world champ. Then you have the anti-hero KA fighting off NWO V2 with The Bisch, HH, and Abyss, instead of an on again, off again, Jeff Hardy as the unexpected heel. Where do they go from here? JJ guitar-shotting anyone who comes close to beating JH, which will be just about everyone they book him against?!

I watched the JJ video interview on this site after last night and it's clear to me that 1. he doesn't want Nash around anymore, 2. thinks he knows better than most about this business and takes it VERY personally when someone doesn't refer to him as the founder of TNA or of having been there from the start. These massive egos are the reason pro wresting stinks these days. No team players, and lots of "me" guys.
 
Here's the thing that doesn't make any sense. Anderson was already set up as a semi-heel anyway. Why not complete the picture last night? Have him blast Angle and Hardy and maintain the merch sales for those 2 as faces. Anderson already has that Steve Austin type anti-hero thing working for him. Why ruin it by making him a milktoast face/heel guy who is conflicted? For the wrestling business it doesn't make any sense at all! They could even have had KA go heel then break away from the faction telling them he didn't need them to be world champ. Then you have the anti-hero KA fighting off NWO V2 with The Bisch, HH, and Abyss, instead of an on again, off again, Jeff Hardy as the unexpected heel. Where do they go from here? JJ guitar-shotting anyone who comes close to beating JH, which will be just about everyone they book him against?!

I watched the JJ video interview on this site after last night and it's clear to me that 1. he doesn't want Nash around anymore, 2. thinks he knows better than most about this business and takes it VERY personally when someone doesn't refer to him as the founder of TNA or of having been there from the start. These massive egos are the reason pro wresting stinks these days. No team players, and lots of "me" guys.

You can also have Mr. Anderson chase and help stop that group. Much like Austin was chasing Michaels and DX. Austin was a tweener and so was DX and it worked. Here is the thing. All we know right now is who "They" are. We don't know why and we don't know where it goes. All the questions everyone has could be answered in the coming weeks. BFG wraps up a season and new things start. This is the beginning of a new story line. There is no way anyone can honestly sit here and be mad because they are not getting any answers since "They" formed at the end of a PPV.

Why are you judging a JJ interview when he just turned heel. Wouldn't it be foolish of him not to come off as a prick. Also why would he say he wants Nash back when he was just feuding with him. Jeff Jarrett is a real nice guy and I have seen a million interviews with him and have met him and not once has he come off like he did in the AOL interview. It is just story.
 
First time poster fellas, so I apopolgize in advance for any screwups...

The only way the JJ thing makes any sense is if he has the power now with Bischoff...Bischoff acts as heel booker/GM type and JJ gets the title of President of TNA or something along those lines...

That smirk that Hogan gave me last night made me throw up in my mouth...I am so glad I didn't pay for that garbage last night.

Mr Anderson is going to be the "Stone Cold" of TNA now...The anti-establishment guy with glack trunks and the profane t-shirts...

And to the person who posted the Forture face turn with AJ vs Hardy...I like it but TNA never keeps the strap on anyone long enough for that to happen.

I see Sting somehow getting a shot down the line vs Hardy, they look the same with the facepaint anyways...

Joe is useless, and only us in the IWC like hime....the people TNA is trying to market themselves to doesn't care about him.

Angle looks like a pill addict...oh wait....
 
Jasper:

I agree with you for the most part. The whole Hogan, Bischoff turn is so last decade. Old storyline being redone. I wonder; will Sting go "red and black" wolfpack now? Nash says tonight is his last taping so he's allegedly done. But then, they never are, are they? Except for the showstopper! BTW; is his 90 days up already? LoL Anyway, more convoluted storylines. JJ will say that DC has ruined HIS company running it into the ground and "they" are here to take it back and to give it to those who "truly" deserve a push. Namely, the young guys in the back. The whole "spoiled" old guys routine will resurface along with the Sting lack of respect for the veterans issue again. Joe "might" join team wolfpack then again might be between both sides, yet again. (what a waste of talent).

At any rate, this is old stuff, isn't creative, and is yet another example of power run amuck in TNA.
 
Jasper:

I agree with you for the most part. The whole Hogan, Bischoff turn is so last decade. Old storyline being redone. I wonder; will Sting go "red and black" wolfpack now? Nash says tonight is his last taping so he's allegedly done. But then, they never are, are they? Except for the showstopper! BTW; is his 90 days up already? LoL Anyway, more convoluted storylines. JJ will say that DC has ruined HIS company running it into the ground and "they" are here to take it back and to give it to those who "truly" deserve a push. Namely, the young guys in the back. The whole "spoiled" old guys routine will resurface along with the Sting lack of respect for the veterans issue again. Joe "might" join team wolfpack then again might be between both sides, yet again. (what a waste of talent).

At any rate, this is old stuff, isn't creative, and is yet another example of power run amuck in TNA.

Why are you for the Mr. Anderson - Stone Cold anti-hero gimmick which is also last decade but the Hogan/Bischoff heel turn is too much?

Basically, you're saying that you're all for repeating angles and gimmicks...just as long as new guys are repeating them...and not the actual original people who literally had a similar heel turn in the past themselves?
 
You can also have Mr. Anderson chase and help stop that group. Much like Austin was chasing Michaels and DX. Austin was a tweener and so was DX and it worked. Here is the thing. All we know right now is who "They" are. We don't know why and we don't know where it goes. All the questions everyone has could be answered in the coming weeks. BFG wraps up a season and new things start. This is the beginning of a new story line. There is no way anyone can honestly sit here and be mad because they are not getting any answers since "They" formed at the end of a PPV.

Why are you judging a JJ interview when he just turned heel. Wouldn't it be foolish of him not to come off as a prick. Also why would he say he wants Nash back when he was just feuding with him. Jeff Jarrett is a real nice guy and I have seen a million interviews with him and have met him and not once has he come off like he did in the AOL interview. It is just story.


If it's a work, then I apologize. But I didn't really take it that way. He didn't appear to be "in character" for the interview but rather doing an honest interview about how the PPV came off.

As to answers, I understand that these things play out over time and I like that. But usually what you get up front is an explanation of "why." True enough it will be saved for the taping tonight which will air Thursday. My problem with it is that these are old storylines being redone by the same people who did them 10-15 years ago. It's just old. It's not enough to make TNA a viable product, especially when you consider the age of most of the guys they have involved in it. Bischoff, Hogan, JJ, Jeff Hardy, Kurt Angle, Anderson, Nash, Sting, and Abyss, aren't spring chickens anymore.

This won't be a longterm storyline as I'm not sure they can pull it off physically for most of these guys. Sting doesn't like working a full schedule, Nash is allegedly retiring as is Angle (if they stick to the storyline) yes I know he just signed a one year extension but he's also got outside interests, Hardy may be out before the end of the year with his offstage issues along with his outside business interests, Matt Hardy at best wouldn't be available until at least Jan. of 2011. Abyss is just destroying his body a la Mick Foley, he's out of shape, and is the Kane/Undertaker of TNA. Their best athlete, A.J. Styles is buried in some pointless feud with a faction that should have retired 10 years ago, ECW 2.0, and the storylines are all jumbled. I just don't see any clarity in any of this.
 
Why are you for the Mr. Anderson - Stone Cold anti-hero gimmick which is also last decade but the Hogan/Bischoff heel turn is too much?

Basically, you're saying that you're all for repeating angles and gimmicks...just as long as new guys are repeating them...and not the actual original people who literally had a similar heel turn in the past themselves?

You bring up a good point and in retrospect, I should probably have clarified myself. I'm not saying that Anderson doing the Stone Cold thing is a good thing, I'm saying that the anti-hero thing seems to work even today. On the other hand, I'm not sure that NWO 2.0 or ECW 2.0 works in the same way. In fact, I would argue that the old-school style storylines that are drawn out over months instead of weeks would also work better than what we have today. Look at the HBK/JBL thing or better the HBK/Jericho storylines. HBK/Jericho was great because it incorporated some real life stuff with HBK's wife. Then with Jericho trying to "maim" HBK with the Jeritron shot to the face. It worked because they gave us drips and drabs at a time. They took their time telling the story. and it worked. It certainly helped that they had perhaps two of the best workers in the history of the business telling it, but it worked.

Character development is sorely lacking in TNA these days. We get regurgitated characters with no development seemingly thrown into storylines haphazardly.
 
am I the only ones that thinks THEY arent gonna be heels, hear me out Hardy and Bishoff will be hated cleary, JJ isnt around much so after this IMPACT! I dont think we will have to worry about him and Hogan and ABYSS, I dont think will "actually" be with Hardy and Bishoff, I think Hogan and Abyss will go back to that mentoring phase which is the only reason why Hogan being apart of THEY even made sense to me. I think they will be a rift between Hogan/Abyss and BIshoff/Hardy making Hogan and AByss beloved again and if Fortune are fighting for the GOOD of TNA like another poster said that would be cool, if not I still think fortune will be on the FENCE as heels/faces from week to week.
 
You bring up a good point and in retrospect, I should probably have clarified myself. I'm not saying that Anderson doing the Stone Cold thing is a good thing, I'm saying that the anti-hero thing seems to work even today. On the other hand, I'm not sure that NWO 2.0 or ECW 2.0 works in the same way. In fact, I would argue that the old-school style storylines that are drawn out over months instead of weeks would also work better than what we have today. Look at the HBK/JBL thing or better the HBK/Jericho storylines. HBK/Jericho was great because it incorporated some real life stuff with HBK's wife. Then with Jericho trying to "maim" HBK with the Jeritron shot to the face. It worked because they gave us drips and drabs at a time. They took their time telling the story. and it worked. It certainly helped that they had perhaps two of the best workers in the history of the business telling it, but it worked.

Character development is sorely lacking in TNA these days. We get regurgitated characters with no development seemingly thrown into storylines haphazardly.

I agree with you...but this falls into what I've been saying forever - that the newer wrestlers lack personality...so those long build ups and promos can't exactly be duplicated let alone improved. And I wouldn't single out TNA as being guilty of this. WWE has some pretty miserable storylines and wrestlers themselves...and they have infinitely more amounts of resources to improve where TNA doesn't. And they're still not that much better or different...if at all.

And the problem doesn't really lie with the NWO storyline...as the NEXUS storyline is pretty much the NWO storyline but in the exact opposite format. Instead of a group of veterans rebelling and taking over...it's a group of rookies who nobody really knows...that are joining together to take control. The problem with TNA is sometimes the fans. If the NWO storyline is used in the WWE like with NEXUS...everybody loves it and it's great. But similar to what you just said...if the NWO storyline is used in TNA...because some of the original NWO guys are still there...they automatically look at it as a repeat "oh here we go again" type thing...just because of the people that are there. I just don't get it. So the pioneers can't ever use anything even similar...they can't even turn heel again without people getting angry...all because they pioneered one of the greatest wrestling angles of all time? BUT in the same breath...anybody who DIDN'T pioneer the angle...can rip it off and everybody will think it's great and unique.

[head spins]

Note: I wasn't saying that you were specifically doing this...but it's basically what a lot of people do.
 
It's the man fighting the odds that is entertaining. Attitude did it best with austin but cena against nexus is another example, hence the big draw just like sting against the NWO. the entertainment lies in people trying to fight against the status quo.

I know what you mean about character development. I think in TNA you can get away without doing it whereas in WWE you can't. You couldn't have del rio come out and just wrestler a match unless you were just tryin gout his in ring ability against a live audience, you have to promote somebody so someone feels like they know them. For a heel it's about coming to loathe their arrogance and for a face it's about coming to love their sense of fair-play and justice and rebellion, important one. In TNA, we really don't know a single thing about MCMG apart from that they are great wrestlers and are mildly funny but they never carry that to the ring with them... just like amazing red, people will pay to watch him perform but not talk because people aren't interested in who he is.....becasue there was no character development. Addmittedly there have been successes like jay lethal, desmond wolfe, mr anderson and some others but there have also been epic failures like samoa joe and kurt angle completely losing all sense of personality but TNA are often happy enough just to have people who can wrestle, they don't always try to do any more with them, they almost expect that to be enough. And it isn't.

Now because I have no idea what the thread was I think I'm gonna stop but erm yeah, I stand by whatever it was I said
 
I agree with you...but this falls into what I've been saying forever - that the newer wrestlers lack personality...so those long build ups and promos can't exactly be duplicated let alone improved. And I wouldn't single out TNA as being guilty of this. WWE has some pretty miserable storylines and wrestlers themselves...and they have infinitely more amounts of resources to improve where TNA doesn't. And they're still not that much better or different...if at all.

And the problem doesn't really lie with the NWO storyline...as the NEXUS storyline is pretty much the NWO storyline but in the exact opposite format. Instead of a group of veterans rebelling and taking over...it's a group of rookies who nobody really knows...that are joining together to take control. The problem with TNA is sometimes the fans. If the NWO storyline is used in the WWE like with NEXUS...everybody loves it and it's great. But similar to what you just said...if the NWO storyline is used in TNA...because some of the original NWO guys are still there...they automatically look at it as a repeat "oh here we go again" type thing...just because of the people that are there. I just don't get it. So the pioneers can't ever use anything even similar...they can't even turn heel again without people getting angry...all because they pioneered one of the greatest wrestling angles of all time? BUT in the same breath...anybody who DIDN'T pioneer the angle...can rip it off and everybody will think it's great and unique.

[head spins]

Note: I wasn't saying that you were specifically doing this...but it's basically what a lot of people do.


I see your point and agree with you but I also don't care for the whole Nexus angle. I admit it was good that first night as it was unexpected and out of left field for WWE. And perhaps they had intel on all of the faction storylines that TNA was going to go with and wanted to be first to market on it. Wouldn't surprise me. And yes, I agree there are some miserable characters in WWE. Too many to name in fact. But WWE is like any big business. In order to continue to stay on top, you have to keep growing. Which for them means growing their roster. Which means adding shows. (no matter how bad they are.) Back in the days of The Rock, Smackdown made perfect sense. Problem was, he was a RAW guy not a Smackdown guy. So they loaded it with the 2nd tier guys, gave them a belt to fight over, and asked them to get whatever # the WWE set as an expectation for ratings. But The Rock's character, like several of his time, were larger than life characters. Over the top guys who had the charisma to carry that character into nearly any kind of storyline. Same with Austin, HHH, Undertaker, Kane, et al. Then gone were Rock and Austin. Now comes word that HHH doesn't really want to come back. (I hear Steph's handiwork in that one unless it's a work to make people believe HHH is scared of Sheamus to work a Wrestlemania angle. The whole Nexus thing is built on quicksand in that they have guys with no big stage experience being asked to carry a storyline similar to that of The NWO, only with more guys than NWO started with, and with no mic time or face time. And it shows. They mumble and stumble their way thru promos and matches. A couple of whom are just horrible. "A list" and Tarver to be specific. Gabriel is servicable but beach bum is a lost cause and Barrett may be a good heel over time but jury is still out. Keep in mind it's the machine pushing this and not the characters. With The NWO it was the characters that pushed it not the bookers or production staff. I suspect if one were to ask Nash was probably riffing a lot back in the day whereas today he seems content to let Sting do all the talking. Xpac was a wastoid then and now. Hall was "the meat". Just a jock musclehead legbreaker for the faction.

Point is. The nexus thing is temporary and when it's over, it's over. With TNA they'll ride this thing far past it's usefulness.
 
Oh right heel stables. Yeah I'd conjoin the general concensus which is before the next PPV fortune needs to become face,but they would in fact dominate the hardybunch easily if you look at the content of wrestlers. So somehow other wrestlers have to join up to 'them' at the end of impact. Have a main event of the two factions facing off and then have some other group join 'them'. Pope and sting would make no sense and EV 2.0 would make no sense and nobdy wants to see them anymore so. It would be viable if maybewrestlers started to compile on either side. Kindof like a WCW/NWO thing except make both separate individual factions comprised of the whole roster like a raw/smackdown from the early days and have key players turn and keep it interesting like a WWF/invasion thing but this time done better by making it one side wants to destroy the other because they hate bischoff/hogan regime and what the company has become and the other wants to rule TNA and mould it into their own vision. Could be the big thing of the immediate future and I could see this writing team doing that because they like exactly that. Ideas, ideas it's always worth spurting them out. Not like I'm gonna influence the future of a company, ut some ideas are really good and worth listening to, not sayin this is one of them.
 
And the problem doesn't really lie with the NWO storyline...as the NEXUS storyline is pretty much the NWO storyline but in the exact opposite format. Instead of a group of veterans rebelling and taking over...it's a group of rookies who nobody really knows...that are joining together to take control. The problem with TNA is sometimes the fans. If the NWO storyline is used in the WWE like with NEXUS...everybody loves it and it's great. But similar to what you just said...if the NWO storyline is used in TNA...because some of the original NWO guys are still there...they automatically look at it as a repeat "oh here we go again" type thing...just because of the people that are there. I just don't get it. So the pioneers can't ever use anything even similar...they can't even turn heel again without people getting angry...all because they pioneered one of the greatest wrestling angles of all time? BUT in the same breath...anybody who DIDN'T pioneer the angle...can rip it off and everybody will think it's great and unique.

I don't agree that Nexus is the same as NWO because that pretty much whittles down both angles to little more than "a bunch of dudes attack a bunch of other dudes" in which case one could say that basically NWO was the same as The Dangerous Alliance was the same as The Four Horsemen. In that respect, pretty much every stable is the same.

The NWO was unique and revolutionary specifically because of the people who were originally involved. Hulk Hogan had never been a heel since his meteoric rise to stardom, and the other two were very popular members of the competition who had jumped ship amidst a little bit of controversy.

Nexus is unique in that you're taking a bunch of rookies, some with a lot of potential and some with virtually none, and positioning them as a force to be reckoned with. In the end, sure they're just like any other heel stable but it's the little details that make each stable unique.

I think the problem some people are having is that this new "They" angle is forming kind of along the same lines as NWO did. It's not exactly the same, of course, regardless of what people want to say about Hogan and Bischoff being involved, but it seems a little too similar with the heel turn of one of the more popular faces in the company (who also happens to be a turncoat from the competition).

On that note, I felt the same way about Evolution and The Four Horsemen (I won't even bother addressing Fourtune). Evolution seemed way too much like an attempt to mimic The Horsemen, and I wasn't particularly a fan of the group. It probably didn't help that I've never really liked Triple H, but I digress.
 
Brian, trust me...I share a lot of your similar opinions about the way wrestling is today. But unfrotunately, they have already done so much to the point where everything has pretty much already been done without doing something illegal perhaps. We fans were spoiled rotten having come off the 80's and early 90's boom...and I don't know how old you are but being a kid and having all these cartoon character type wrestlers when you're little...it was extremely entertaining. Then it was almost as though the wrestling world was growing up with me (and others my age) because once I started getting older into my teenage years...the NWO began, we had DX, Goldberg, etc. It was just incredible. So now here we are in our late 20's (me and those same people in similar ages) and you look at all of this mediocrity and of course it doesn't compare...but almost nothing could. It's sad but it's kind of the way it is.

The thing that bothers me the most is that the newer wrestlers that lack the personality and charisma the older ones had...aren't really making much improvements in that area. It seems most wrestlers just focused primarily on their manuevers and moves and literally zero time on their character...which then results in the boredom they give off. I mean you have Rey Mysterio Jr. swinging around with a World Title belt...it's just bad.

However, I think there are a few things they could do...and a part of me wonders if Hogan's whole surgery thing was in fact one large hoax...as well as the Kevin Nash retirement thing, etc. One way to set yourself apart from the rest would be to literally do something this extraordinary I guess. But who knows.

Like I said, there really isn't much more they can do unfortunately...



Preach On... I couldn't have said it any better
 
Oh right heel stables. Yeah I'd conjoin the general concensus which is before the next PPV fortune needs to become face,but they would in fact dominate the hardybunch easily if you look at the content of wrestlers. So somehow other wrestlers have to join up to 'them' at the end of impact. Have a main event of the two factions facing off and then have some other group join 'them'. Pope and sting would make no sense and EV 2.0 would make no sense and nobdy wants to see them anymore so. It would be viable if maybewrestlers started to compile on either side. Kindof like a WCW/NWO thing except make both separate individual factions comprised of the whole roster like a raw/smackdown from the early days and have key players turn and keep it interesting like a WWF/invasion thing but this time done better by making it one side wants to destroy the other because they hate bischoff/hogan regime and what the company has become and the other wants to rule TNA and mould it into their own vision. Could be the big thing of the immediate future and I could see this writing team doing that because they like exactly that. Ideas, ideas it's always worth spurting them out. Not like I'm gonna influence the future of a company, ut some ideas are really good and worth listening to, not sayin this is one of them.
Well considering how close Dreamer was to Hogan after the ev 2.0 debut even to the point of loyally following every order Hogan gave, there is a chance that ECW guys will join this stable and things will end up looking like they should I.E ECW guys will be heel and the up incomers/TNA originals in fourtune will be face and yes flair can do face just as good as he does heel so no worries there.
 
The whole TNA landscape right now is a clusterfuck. On one hand, you have Hogan/Bischoff/Jarrett/Abyss/Hardy as "They" who will most definitely feud with Angle/RVD/Anderson/Pope/Sting/Joe/Nash(?).

Then you have Fortune and EV2, who will most likely stop feuding since Lethal Lockdown is essentially the new HIAC, with it being a feud capper and what not. Honestly it would make more sense to keep Fortune the heels, with them running loose in TNA and being against Dixie Carter. Why the fuck would EV2 be the heels? They've been kissing Dixie's ass since they came into TNA, and she's the reason why EV2 is in TNA. Though, I guess you can't rule out anything with Russo booking things.

Regardless who Fortune/EV2 side with, what you end up with is an even bigger clusterfuck than we have now. If Fortune/EV2 join this thing, this is what it could look like:

Foley/Rhino/Richards/Dreamer/Sabu/Raven/Angle/Anderson/Pope/Joe/Nash(?)/Sting/RVD vs Hogan/Bischoff/Hardy/Abyss/Jarrett/Flair/AJ/Morgan/Beer Money/Kaz/Williams

Um, yeah.
 

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