Triple H or Bret Hart?

[theHeadliner]

The Hitman. Bret helped re-define the business by actually selling the wrestling aspect better than anyone at the time. He had to follow Hogan and that era, and he always had interesting matches. Bret Hart's matches were great stories, and countless are classics now. I can't think of too many classic HHH matches. He bombed with Orton in the ME of WM. Hart had an unbelievable global following and possibly the most popular US wrestler ever internationally, so that lack of draw shouldn't be used. The business as a whole was in bad shape in the USA. Bret was small, but he drew a lot better than Diesel when he was champ. In the 1990s era when business was slow, Bret did a pretty good job and Vince understood with all the scandals and lame angles that Bret did the best with what he had. Diesel used to complain he was the lowest paid champ in WWF history... There was a reason for that. Bret wasn't super horrible on the mic. He was believable, just like his matches and in pro wrestling I think believability is one, or was one of the most important aspects.

 

[Mazzaroti78]

Bret Hart was the bigger draw by far. Internationally no one comes close. In the U.S. it's a lot closer.

This bit of information is so terribly incorrect that I cannot and will not take your opinions seriously. Go read a wrestling observer with the list of top draws of all time. Bret Hart isn't even in the top ten. HHH is so get your facts straight before you drop info like this and you have the nerve to say Bret Hart out drew Hunter and it isn't close!!!! Just stop!

Bret did the one thing Hunter could never do and that was to get guys over. Paul was always too worried about making himself look good. While Bret made Austin look like a million bucks.

HHH before he tore his quad, was known as the most unselfish heel and THE best worker on the planet because he got everyone he wrestled over huge. Hell dude in 2000 he worked a mini program with TAKA MICHINOKU and GOT HIM OVER HUGE! Now after the quad tear he was much more selfish.

Hunter's reign in 2000 means nothing because he was riding the coattails of the Rock and Austin. If a pile of shit was champion in 2000 it would draw money for the WWE. That was a big year for the WWE not because of Hunter but because wrestling was so big.

You obviously did not watch or see this era of wrestling because both Austin and Rock weren't even working in WWE due to injuries and movies shoots. The Rock was there on occasion and Austin didn't come back from his neck surgery until November. Taker was out half the year also. HHH was there all by himself and carried the company. A LOT of people don't like him personally, I am one of those people, I do not like him as a person but the man was on top of the show. Period. Give him his proper credit and stop selling his accomplishments short because you don't like him.

 

[The Dragon Saga]

Bret Hart.

No reason should be needed, but in the interest of discussion I'll break it down.

Drawing power? Bret Hart. When Hulk Hogan left the WWE in the early nineties and Vince McMahon was caught out for the steroid scandal, who was the guy that pulled both Vince and the WWE from the mud? Bret Hart. Triple H has never been that guy in WWE, there has always been someone there to help him or someone there to get him over. He didn't ride anyones cotails, but he didn't do anything himself either, he always had someone like Shawn Michaels, The Rock, Stone Cold or someone there. Bret Hart was WWE's main draw at one point. He was "the" guy, until Shawn Michaels time was right. Triple H hasn't anything on Bret's drawing power.

Ability... Okay, no need to answer that. Someone above me said, Triple H had better matches? What are you, seven? Bret Hart vs. Shawn Michaels in an Ironman match, Bret Hart vs. British Bulldog at SummerSlam, Bret Hart vs. Owen Hart at Wrestlemania 10, Bret Hart vs. Stone Cold Steve Austin in the Submission match... I can go on-and-on. Paul hasn't anything on Bret, except for size as an overall wrestler.

Charisma? Okay, lets define that shall we...

cha·ris·ma/kəˈrizmə/Noun
1. Compelling attractiveness or charm that can inspire devotion in others.
2. A divinely conferred power or talent.

What talent does Triple H have which stands out? Intensity on occasion? The power to be a great heel? Fine, lets give him that. Now, Bret has the fact that he was at one point considered the best wrestler in the world. As a face, everyone loved him, as a heel, everyone hated him. Bret Hart started the America/Canada feud in the WWE and that showed everyone how he can go from being a hero in Canada to one of the most booed in America. The heat he generated was collosal.

Bret has so many more qualities than Triple H. I could go on, but no more detail is needed. Speaks for itself.

 

[Mazzaroti78]

I found one of Meltzer's list's of top WWF/E ALL TIME money draws from 2008. It's old but this should clear up any confusion as to who drew more money.

1. BRUNO SAMMARTINO

2. HULK HOGAN

3. BOB BACKLUND

4. ARGENTINA ROCCA

5. HHH

6. UNDERTAKER

7. STEVE AUSTIN (Undertaker and HHH have passed him in recent years since he finished his career in 2003. Had he not retired at the age of 38 due to injuries, as well as missed what probably would have been his biggest drawing year in 1999 with neck surgery, he would have been No. 2 on this list by now. Nobody ever in company history was a bigger drawing card or merchandise seller then he was at his peak.)

8. THE ROCK

9. PEDRO MORALES

10. SHAWN MICHAELS

11. SUPERSTAR BILLY GRAHAM

12. MIGUEL PEREZ

13. BRET HART

14. BUDDY ROGERS

15. RANDY SAVAGE

16. JOHN CENA

17. KURT ANGLE

18. MICK FOLEY aka CACTUS JACK, DUDE LOVE, MANKIND

19. ANDRE THE GIANT

20. DR. JERRY GRAHAM

(TIE) JOHNNY VALENTINE

22. RODDY PIPER

23. IVAN KOLOFF

24. ULTIMATE WARRIOR

(TIE) RANDY ORTON

(TIE) BATISTA

27. GREG VALENTINE

(TIE) YOKOZUNA

(TIE) SGT. SLAUGHTER

30. GEORGE STEELE

(TIE) CHRIS JERICHO

(TIE) KANE

(TIE) KEVIN NASH aka DIESEL

34. RIC FLAIR

(TIE) BIG SHOW aka PAUL WRIGHT

(TIE) STAN HANSEN

(TIE) GORILLA MONSOON

(TIE) KEN PATERA

39. FRED BLASSIE

(TIE) BOB ORTON SR. aka ROCKY FITZPATRICK

(TIE) BROCK LESNAR

42. EDDIE GRAHAM

(TIE) KILLER KOWALSKI

(TIE) PROFESSOR TORU TANAKA

(TIE) DON MURACO

(TIE) DAVEY BOY SMITH aka BRITISH BULLDOG

(TIE) EDGE

(TIE) CHRIS BENOIT

49. LARRY ZBYSZKO

(TIE) PAUL ORNDORFF

(TIE) IRON SHEIK aka GREAT HOSSEIN ARAB aka COL. MUSTAFA

(TIE) NIKOLAI VOLKOFF aka BEPO MONGOL

(TIE) WALDO VON ERICH

(TIE) BOOKER T aka KING BOOKER

 

[Mazzaroti78]

Lets go even further in depth. This is a list of top draws per year since 1908 from Meltzer and copied from another forum on the subject of top draw in wrestling history.

The formula is largely based on matches that drew 10,000 fans (and an extra point if topping 20,000, a third point if topping 30,000, etc).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrestling Observer Newsletter
1908 - Frank Gotch and George Hackenschmidt

1909 - Frank Gotch

1910 - 1. Great Gama and Stanislaus Zbyszko; 3. Frank Gotch; 4. Dr. Ben Roller

1911 - 1. Frank Gotch and George Hackenschmidt

1912 - 1. Frank Gotch

1913 - 1. Stanislaus Zbyszko and George Lurich; 3. Frank Gotch

1914 - Unavailable

1915 - 1. Charley Cutler; 2. Joe Stecher

1916 - 1. Joe Stecher; 2. Ed “Strangler” Lewis

1917 - 1. Joe Stecher; 2. Charley Peters, Jim Londos, John Pesek Ad Santel, Wladek Zbyszko; John Olin, Ed “Strangler” Lewis

1918 - 1. Joe Stecher, Ed “Strangler” Lewis and Wladek Zbyszko

1919 - 1. Ed “Strangler” Lewis; 2. Wladek Zbyszko; 3. Joe Stecher and Jim Londos

1920 - 1. Joe Stecher; 2. Jim Londos; 3. Earl Caddock and Ed “Strangler” Lewis; 5. John Pesek

1921 - 1. Ed “Strangler” Lewis; 2. Earl Caddock; 3. Jim Londos, John Pesek and Stanislaus Zbyszko

1922 - 1. Stanislaus Zbyszko; 2. Earl Caddock and Ed “Strangler” Lewis

1923 - 1. Ed “Strangler” Lewis; 2. Jim Londos; 3. Stanislaus Zbyszko and John Pesek

1924 - 1. Ed “Strangler” Lewis and Jim Londos; 3. Toots Mondt and Stanislaus Zbyszko

1925 - 1. Ed “Strangler” Lewis, Joe Stecher, Wayne Munn and Stanislaus Zbyszko

1926 - 1. Jim Londos; 2. Joe Stecher; 3. Ray Steele, John Pesek, Ed “Strangler” Lewis and Jim Browning

1927 - 1. Jim Londos and John Pesek

1928 - 1. Jim Londos; 2. John Pesek and Ed “Strangler” Lewis; 4. Joe Stecher, Dick Shikat, Gus Sonnenberg, Ray Steele

1929 - 1. Gus Sonnenberg; 2. Ed “Strangler” Lewis; 3. Joe Stecher; 4. Jim Londos; 5. Dick Shikat; 6. Stanley Stasiak and Joe Malciewiez

1930 - 1. Dick Shikat and Jim Londos; 3. Gus Sonnenberg and Everett Marshall; 5. Gino Garibaldi, Abe Coleman and Man Mountain Dean; 8. Stanley Stasiak, Karl Pojello, Ed “Strangler” Lewis, Hans Steinke, Ed Don George, Milo Steinborn an Rudy Dusek

1931 - 1. Jim Londos (dominant year, set all-time record for biggest national drawing card); 2. Ray Steele; 3. Jim McMillen and Gus Sonnenberg; 5. Rudy Dusek and Sandor Szabo; 7. Herb Freeman, Pat O’Shocker, Kola Kwariani, George Calza

1932 - 1. Jim Londos (dominant year); 2. Henri DeGlane; 3. Ed “Strangler” Lewis and Dick Shikat; 5. Jack Washburn

1933 - 1. Jim Londos (dominant year); 2. Henri DeGlane; 3. Jim Browning; 4. Ed Don George; 5. Ray Steele and Gus Sonnenberg; 7. Joe Stecher, Dick Shikat and Ed “Strangler” Lewis

1934 - 1. Jim Londos (dominant year, near record breaker); 2. Man Mountain Dean; 3. Dick Shikat; 4. Ed Don George, Ed “Strangler” Lewis, Jim Browning; 6. Joe Savoldi; 7. Joe Stecher and George Zaharias; 9. Everett Marshall, Henri DeGlane, Orville Brown and Gino Garibaldi

1935 - 1. Danno O’Mahoney (dominant year); 2. Jim Londos and Man Mountain Dean; 4. Vincent Lopez; 5. Ed “Strangler” Lewis; 6. Ed Don George; 7. Orville Brown and Gus Sonnenberg; 9. Chief Little Wolf and Ernie Dusek

1936 - 1. Danno O’Mahoney (dominant year); 2. Yvon Robert; 3. Ed Don George; 4. Everett Marshall, Ali Baba, Rube Wright, Vincent Lopez and Earl McCready

1937 - 1. Jim Londos (dominant year); 2. Everett Marshall; 3. Yvon Robert; 4. Orville Brown

1938 - 1. Jim Londos and Steve Casey; 3. Lou Thesz, Everett Marshall and Bronko Nagurski; 6. Vincent Lopez

1939 - 1. Jim Londos, Vincent Lopez and Dave Levin; 4. Lou Thesz, Everett Marshall, Dean Detton and Mildred Burke

1940 - 1. Jim Londos; 2. Bronko Nagurski and Maurice “French Angel” Tillet; 4. George Zaharias, Lou Thesz, Bill Longson and Ed Don George

1941 - 1. Bill Longson (dominant year); 2. Ed Don George and Wlasislow Talum; 4. Mildred Burke

1942 - 1. Bill Longson (dominant year); 2. Yvon Robert; 3. Maurice “French Angel” Tillet; 4. Lou Thesz and Sandor Szabo

1943 - 1. Bill Longson (dominant year); 2. Bobby Managoff, Swedish Angel and Vic Holbook; 5. Sandor Szabo and Yvon Robert

1944 - 1. Bill Longson (dominant year); 2. Whipper Billy Watson and Sandor Szabo; 4. Swedish Angel and Warren Bockwinkel

1945 - 1. Bill Longson (dominant year); 2. Wlasislow Talum and Bob Wagner

1946 - 1. Bill Longson (dominant year); 2. Buddy Rogers; 3. Yvon Robert and Primo Carnera; 5. Ray Vilmer, Frank Sexton, Wlasislow Talum, Bobby Managoff, Lou Thesz and Jim Londos

1947 - 1. Bill Longson; 2. Frank Sexton; 3. Lou Thesz and Whipper Billy Watson; 5. Gorgeous George; 6. Bob Wagner, Buddy Rogers, Larry Moquin and Bert Assirati

1948 - 1. Gorgeous George; 2. Bill Longson; 3. Enrique Torres; 4. Ernie & Emil Dusek; 6. Babe & Chris Zaharias and Whipper Billy Watson; 8. Maurice “French Angel” Tillet; 9. Sandor Szabo, Frank Sexton, Don Eagle, Manuel Garza, Buddy Rogers, Yvon Robert and Primo Carnera

1949 - 1. Gorgeous George and Whipper Billy Watson; 3. Lou Thesz; 4. Buddy Rogers, Yvon Robert and Don Eagle; 7. Argentina Rocca, Bill Longson and El Santo

1950 - 1. Lou Thesz and Argentina Rocca; 3. Buddy Rogers, Primo Carnera and Gorgeous George; 6. Don Eagle and Yukon Eric; 8. Whipper Billy Watson, Yvon Robert, Nanjo Singh, Bill Longson and Maurice “French Angel” Tillet

1951 - 1. Lou Thesz; 2. Whipper Billy Watson, Buddy Rogers and Great Togo; 5. Bill Longson and Yvon Robert; 7. Argentina Rocca, Yukon Eric, Enrique Llanes and Rikidozan

1952 - 1. Lou Thesz (dominant year); 2. Argentina Rocca and Killer Kowalski; 4. Buddy Rogers Primo Carnera, Verne Gagne and Baron Michele Leone; 8. Bobby Managoff, Pat O’Connor and Mighty Atlas

1953 - 1. Lou Thesz and Blue Demon; 3. El Santo; 4. Killer Kowalski and Verne Gagne; 6. Yvon Robert and Argentina Rocca; 8. Hans Schmidt, Tony Borne, Yukon Eric, Whipper Billy Watson and Al & Tiny Mills

1954 - 1. Argentina Rocca; 2. Verne Gagne, Pat O’Connor and Rikidozan; 5. El Santo; 6. Killer Kowalski, Mike & Ben Sharpe, Masahiko Kimura, Bert Assirati; 10. Whipper Billy Watson, Lou Thesz, Hans Schmidt

1955 - 1. Lou Thesz; 2. Wilbur Snyder; 3. Argentina Rocca and Hans Schmidt; 5. Killer Kowalski, Yukon Eric, Neff Maiava, Buddy Rogers, Emile Czaja and Rikidozan

1956 - 1. Argentina Rocca and Whipper Billy Watson; 3. Lou Thesz; 4. Killer Kowalski, Dr. Jerry Graham and El Santo; 7. Verne Gagne and Wilbur Snyder; 9. Dick the Bruiser, Ivan & Karol Kalmikoff, Reggie (Crusher) & Stan Liswoski; Miguel Perez, Edouard Carpentier, Don Leo Jonathan and Gorgeous George

1957 - 1. Lou Thesz; 2. Argentina Rocca; 3. Gene Kiniski; 4. Killer Kowalski and Edouard Carpentier; 6. Rikidozan; 7. Miguel Perez; 8. Whipper Billy Watson; 9. Hans Schmidt and Bobo Brazil

1958 - 1. Argentina Rocca & Miguel Perez (dominant year); 2. Killer Kowalski; 3. Edouard Carpentier; 4. Dr. Jerry Graham; 5. Fabulous Kangaroos and Eddie Graham; 7. Don Leo Jonathan, Pat O’Connor, The Sheik, Wild Bull Curry, Tony Borne and Black Shadow

1959 - 1. Argentina Rocca & Miguel Perez (dominant year); 2. Dick the Bruiser, Dr. Jerry & Eddie Graham, and Killer Kowalski; 5. Johnny Valentine; 6. Buddy Rogers and Wilbur Snyder; 8. Lord Athol Layton, Hans Schmidt, Angelo Poffo, Yukon Eric, Whipper Billy Watson, Gene Kiniski, Gorgeous George, The Sheik, Edouard Carpentier, Roy & Ray Shire (Ray Stevens)

1960 - 1. Buddy Rogers; 2. Argentina Rocca; 3. Dick the Bruiser, Bearcat Wright and Pat O’Connor; 6. Eddie Graham, Sweet Daddy Siki and Killer Kowalski; 9. Bruno Sammartino; 10. Cowboy Bob Ellis, Gene Kiniski and Yukon Eric

1961 - 1. Buddy Rogers (dominant year, set all-time record for biggest single year draw); 2. Argentina Rocca; 3. Johnny Valentine; 4. Pat O’Connor; 5. Bob Orton; 6. The Fabulous Kangaroos, Dick the Bruiser, Argentina Apollo; 9. Cowboy Bob Ellis, Ray Stevens, Fred Blassie and Rikidozan

1962 - 1. Buddy Rogers (dominant year); 2. Ray Stevens; 3. Johnny Valentine; 4. Bobo Brazil; 5. Cowboy Bob Ellis and Pepper Gomez; 7. Fred Blassie, Rikidozan and The Crusher; 10. Wilbur Snyder, Lou Thesz, Johnny Barend and Killer Kowalski

1963 - 1. Bruno Sammartino; 2. Buddy Rogers (should be noted Rogers’ last match of the year was May 17 due to heart problems, was on the way to a dominant year, and he still ended up finishing a close second) and Lou Thesz; 4. Killer Kowalski and Freddie Blassie; 6. The Destroyer; 7. Bobo Brazil and Hans Mortier; 9. Ray Stevens, Edouard Carpentier, Bearcat Wright and Gorilla Monsoon

1964 - 1. Bruno Sammartino (dominant year); 2. Fritz Von Erich; 3. Lou Thesz; 4. Dick the Bruiser; 5. Freddie Blassie and Gene Kiniski; 7. Ray Stevens, Johnny Valentine, Giant Baba, Waldo Von Erich and Gorilla Monsoon

1965 - 1. Bruno Sammartino (dominant year); 2. Cowboy Bill Watts; 3. Fritz Von Erich, Dick the Bruiser, Bill Miller; 6. Lou Thesz, Johnny Valentine, Kinji Shibuya, Toyonobori, Rene Guajardo, Karloff Lagarde, Ray Mendoza

1966 - 1. Lou Thesz; 2. Gene Kiniski; 3. Bruno Sammartino; 4. Fritz Von Erich; 5. Dick the Bruiser; 6. Giant Baba and Johnny Valentine; 8. Ernie Ladd (an impressive total since Ladd only wrestled during the pro football off-season as he was an AFL star player at this point in time), Dory Funk Jr., The Crusher

1967 - 1. Bruno Sammartino; 2. Gene Kiniski; 3. Giant Baba; 4. Mark Lewin; 5. Gorilla Monsoon; 6. The Crusher, Johnny Valentine, Edouard Carpentier, Verne Gagne, Ray Stevens and Toru Tanaka

1968 - 1. Bruno Sammartino; 2. Lou Thesz; 3. Gene Kiniski, Dara Singh, Bobo Brazil and Dick the Bruiser; 7. The Crusher; 8. Giant Baba, Freddie Blassie, Ray Stevens and Mil Mascaras

1969 - 1. The Sheik (dominant year); 2. Bruno Sammartino and Dory Funk Jr.; 4. Ray Stevens; 5. Mad Dog & Butcher Vachon; 7. Ivan Koloff and Bobo Brazil; 9. Jacques Rougeau Sr., Dick the Bruiser and Gene Kiniski

1970 - 1. The Sheik; 2. Bruno Sammartino; 3. Freddie Blassie; 4. Dory Funk Jr.; 5. The Crusher, Mad Dog Vachon and Pat Patterson; 8. Ray Stevens; 9. Gene Kiniski, Dick the Bruiser, Verne Gagne

1971 - 1. The Sheik; 2. Pedro Morales; 3. Freddie Blassie; 4. John Tolos; 5. Dory Funk Jr.; 6. Mil Mascaras; 7. Tiger Jeet Singh; 8. Tex McKenzie, The Crusher, Black Gordman, Bruno Sammartino, Luke Graham & Tarzan Tyler

1972 - 1. The Sheik; 2. Pedro Morales; 3. Ernie Ladd; 4. Dory Funk Jr., Dick the Bruiser & The Crusher, Bruno Sammartino and Pampero Firpo; 8. John Tolos; 9. Killer Kowalski; 10. Black Gordman, Blackjack Lanza, Mil Mascaras and Ray Stevens

1973 - 1. The Sheik; 2. Pedro Morales; 3. Dick the Bruiser; 4. Ernie Ladd; 5. Bruno Sammartino; 6. The Crusher; 7. Johnny Valentine; 8. Dory Funk Jr. and Superstar Billy Graham; 10. Harley Race and Jack Brisco

1974 - 1. Bruno Sammartino; 2. The Sheik; 3. Jerry Lawler; 4. Jack Brisco; 5. Andre the Giant and Valiant Brothers; 7. Chief Jay Strongbow, Don Leo Jonathan; 9. Killer Kowalski, Dick the Bruiser and Jackie Fargo

1975 - 1. Bruno Sammartino (dominant year); 2. Spyros Arion; 3. Jack Brisco; 4. Mongolian Stomper; 5. Andre the Giant; 6. Jerry Lawler; 7. Ivan Koloff; 8. Dick the Bruiser, The Crusher, Robert Fuller, Perro Aguayo

1976 - 1. Bruno Sammartino (dominant year); 2. Antonio Inoki; 3. Superstar Billy Graham; 4. Terry Funk, Ivan Koloff and Stan Hansen; 7. Andre the Giant; 8. Jerry Lawler; 9. Ric Flair and Nick Bockwinkel

1977 - 1. Superstar Billy Graham; 2. Bruno Sammartino; 3. Harley Race and Jerry Lawler; 5. Ken Patera; 6. Dusty Rhodes; 7. The Sheik and Mil Mascaras; 9. Gene & Ole Anderson and Bill Dundee

1978 - 1. Superstar Billy Graham ; 2. Bob Backlund; 3. Dusty Rhodes; 4. Harley Race; 5. Bruno Sammartino; 6. Ric Flair and Andre the Giant; 8. Canek, Ernie Ladd and Ivan Koloff

1979 - 1. Bob Backlund; 2. Harley Race; 3. Ric Flair; 4. Andre the Giant; 5. Bruno Sammartino, Ricky Steamboat and Pat Patterson; 8. Peter Maivia, Ivan Koloff, Nick Bockwinkel and Dusty Rhodes

1980 - 1. Bob Backlund; 2. Bruno Sammartino; 3. Larry Zbyszko; 4. Harley Race and Ken Patera; 6. Andre the Giant; 7. Hulk Hogan; 8. Antonio Inoki; 9. Ric Flair and Stan Hansen

1981 - 1. Bob Backlund (dominant year); 2. Andre the Giant; 3. Ric Flair and Stan Hansen; 5. Hulk Hogan; 6. Sgt. Slaughter; 7. Killer Khan and Nick Bockwinkel; 9. Jerry Blackwell, Harley Race and Dusty Rhodes

1982 - 1. Bob Backlund (breaks Rogers record for most big gates in one year); 2. Ric Flair; 3. Hulk Hogan; 4. Nick Bockwinkel; 5. Jimmy Snuka; 6. Perro Aguayo, Sgt. Slaughter, Roddy Piper and Superstar Billy Graham; 10. Andre the Giant, Junkyard Dog and Ken Patera

1983 - 1. Ric Flair; 2. Bob Backlund; 3. Harley Race; 4. Don Muraco; 5. Sgt. Slaughter; 6. Hulk Hogan; 7. Andre the Giant; 8. Jimmy Snuka; 9. Ricky Steamboat and John Studd

1984 - 1. Hulk Hogan (set all-time record for most big gates in one year); 2. Ric Flair; 3. Antonio Inoki; 4. Iron Sheik; 5. Kerry Von Erich; 6. Andre the Giant; 7. Paul Orndorff and Road Warriors; 9. Junkyard Dog; 10. Nick Bockwinkel and Canek

1985 - 1 Hulk Hogan (set all-time record for most big gates in one year); 2. Ric Flair; 3. Roddy Piper; 4. Paul Orndorff and Road Warriors; 5. Andre the Giant; 6. John Studd; 7. Bob Orton Jr.; 8. Randy Savage and Antonio Inoki; 10. Kevin & Kerry Von Erich

1986 - 1. Hulk Hogan (set all-time record for most big gates in one year); 2. Ric Flair and Paul Orndorff; 4. Road Warriors; 5. Randy Savage; 6. Dusty Rhodes and Nikita Koloff; 7. Roddy Piper and King Kong Bundy; 9. Midnight Express and Tito Santana

1987 - 1. Hulk Hogan (dominant year); 2. Ric Flair; 3. Randy Savage; 4. Kamala; 5. Road Warriors; 6. Dusty Rhodes and One Man Gang; 8. Andre the Giant and Antonio Inoki; 10. Harley Race and Carlos Colon

1988 - 1. Hulk Hogan; 2. Randy Savage; 3. Ric Flair and Andre the Giant; 5. Ted DiBiase; 6. Lex Luger; 7. Big Bossman; 8. Tully Blanchard; 9. Road Warriors, Dusty Rhodes and Carlos Colon

1989 - 1. Hulk Hogan; 2. Randy Savage; 3. Big Bossman; 4. Ultimate Warrior; 5. Big Van Vader; 6. Akira Maeda; 7. Antonio Inoki; 8. Andre the Giant, Carlos Colon and Rick Rude

1990 - 1. Hulk Hogan; 2. Ultimate Warrior; 3. Stan Hansen; 4. Mr. Perfect; 5. Riki Choshu; 6. Konnan and Rick Rude; 8. Big Van Vader, Perro Aguayo and Earthquake

1991 - 1. Hulk Hogan; 2. Ric Flair; 3. Konnan; 4. Perro Aguayo; 5. Sgt. Slaughter; 6. Ultimate Warrior; 7. Tatsumi Fujinami; 8. Undertaker, Genichiro Tenryu and Canek

1992 - 1. Ric Flair; 2. Konnan; 3. Hulk Hogan and Sid Vicious; 5. Cien Caras; 6. Bret Hart; 7. Randy Savage; 8. Vampiro; 9. Davey Boy Smith; 10. Perro Aguayo

1993 - 1. Konnan; 2. Cien Caras; 3. Perro Aguayo; 4. Genichiro Tenryu; 5. Mascara Ano 2000 and El Hijo del Santo; 7. Keiji Muto; 8. Riki Choshu, Love Machine, Octagon and Tatsumi Fujinami (Bret Hart was No. 1 in the United States)

1994 - 1. Konnan; 2. Bret Hart; 3. Shinya Hashimoto; 4. Nobuhiko Takada and Perro Aguayo; 6. Genichiro Tenryu; 7. Antonio Inoki, Owen Hart and Love Machine; 10. Cien Caras, Keiji Muto and Atsushi Onita

1995 - 1. Shinya Hashimoto; 2. Ric Flair; 3. Antonio Inoki; 4. Konnan and Keiji Muto; 6. Perro Aguayo; 7. Masahiro Chono; 8. Mitsuharu Misawa and Cien Caras; 10. Nobuhiko Takada and Diesel

1996 - 1. Nobuhiko Takada; 2. Shawn Michaels; 3. Shinya Hashimoto; 4. Bret Hart; 5. Keiji Muto; 6. Diesel; 7. Ric Flair, Kenta Kobashi, Toshiaki Kawada, Akira Taue, Vader, Genichiro Tenryu, El Hijo del Santo and Riki Choshu

1997 - 1. Shinya Hashimoto; 2. Undertaker; 3. Shawn Michaels; 4. Bret Hart; 5. Naoya Ogawa; 6. Lex Luger and Keiji Muto; 8. Steve Austin; 9. Hulk Hogan; 10. Riki Choshu, Kevin Nash and Mick Foley

1998 - 1. Steve Austin (set all-time record for most big gates in one year); 2. Undertaker; 3. Kane; 4. Mick Foley; 5. The Rock; 6. Bill Goldberg; 7. Hulk Hogan; 8. HHH; 9. Sting; 10. Randy Savage

1999 - 1. The Rock (set all-time record for most big gates in one year); 2. Steve Austin; 3. HHH; 4. Big Show; 5. Kane; 6. Undertaker; 7. Keiji Muto; 8. Bill Goldberg; 9. Ric Flair; 10. Kevin Nash

2000 - 1. The Rock (set all-time record for most big gates in one year); 2. HHH; 3. Kurt Angle; 4. Kane and Chris Benoit; 6. X-Pac; 7. Undertaker; 8. Road Dogg; 9. Naoya Ogawa; 10. Kensuke Sasaki and Chris Jericho

2001 - 1. Steve Austin; 2. The Rock; 3. Kurt Angle; 4. HHH; 5. Undertaker; 6. Chris Jericho; 7. Kane; 8. Kensuke Sasaki, Chris Benoit and Keiji Muto

2002 -1. The Rock; 2. Bob Sapp; 3. HHH; 4. Hulk Hogan; 5. Chris Jericho; 6. Steve Austin; 7. Kazushi Sakuraba; 8. Brock Lesnar; 9. Yuji Nagata and Mirko Cro Cop

2003 - 1. Brock Lesnar; 2. HHH; 3. Kazushi Sakuraba; 4. Big Show and Kurt Angle; 6. Yuji Nagata, Hulk Hogan, Kenta Kobashi, Masahiro Chono, Bill Goldberg, Shawn Michaels and Wanderlei Silva

2004 - 1. HHH; 2. Chris Benoit; 3. Bob Sapp and Eddie Guerrero; 5. Shawn Michaels; 6. La Parka; 7. Randy Orton, Ric Flair and Kenta Kobashi; 10. Shinsuke Nakamura, Cibernetico and Perro Aguayo Jr.

2005 - 1. Kenta Kobashi; 2. HHH; 3. Mistico and Ultimo Guerrero; 5. Atlantis, John Cena and Batista; 8. Rey Bucanero and Cibernetico; 10. Kurt Angle and El Hijo del Santo

2006 - 1. Mistico; 2. Perro Aguayo Jr. and Dr. Wagner Jr.; 4. Atlantis and Black Warrior; 6. John Cena and Negro Casas; 8. Ultimo Guerrero & Rey Bucanero; 9. La Parka, Konnan and Muerte Cibernetico (Mesias)

2007 - 1. John Cena; 2. Mistico; 3. Batista; 4. Randy Orton and Perro Aguayo Jr; 6. Ultimo Guerrero; 7. Dr. Wagner Jr.; 8. Cibernetico; 9. Hector Garza and Great Khali

2008 - 1. Mistico; 2. HHH; 3. Perro Aguayo Jr.; 4. Ultimo Guerrero and Hector Garza; 6. Cibernetico; 7. Zorro and Shocker; 9. Shawn Michaels and Chris Jericho

Bret Hart appears 4 times(5 if you include '93 when Hart was the top US draw), HHH appears 9 times. Say HHH's prime years were 1998-2003. He still appears on this list consistently 6 straight years and has MAJOR competition in Rock, Austin, Goldberg, Hogan, Lesnar, Kurt Angle, Foley and some UFC fighters like Silva.

People argue that HHH was on the same team with Rock and Austin how could he not draw? Well, answer me how Bret Hart went to the number one company in wrestling in 1997 and yet is no where on this list in 1998? Bret Harts career wasn't destroyed at Survivor Series, it was killed in WCW. Randy Savage was a political enemy of Hogan in WCW and still managed to draw money in WCW.

Now I will say for all you Sting fans out there to please find him for more because I don't see him. How can he be great and be on this list one time? X-pac and Roaddog made it one time. WOW

 

[Marky-Marc]

Lets go even further in depth. This is a list of top draws per year since 1908 from Meltzer and copied from another forum on the subject of top draw in wrestling history.




Bret Hart appears 4 times(5 if you include '93 when Hart was the top US draw), HHH appears 9 times. Say HHH's prime years were 1998-2003. He still appears on this list consistently 6 straight years and has MAJOR competition in Rock, Austin, Goldberg, Hogan, Lesnar, Kurt Angle, Foley and some UFC fighters like Silva.

People argue that HHH was on the same team with Rock and Austin how could he not draw? Well, answer me how Bret Hart went to the number one company in wrestling in 1997 and yet is no where on this list in 1998? Bret Harts career wasn't destroyed at Survivor Series, it was killed in WCW. Randy Savage was a political enemy of Hogan in WCW and still managed to draw money in WCW.

Now I will say for all you Sting fans out there to please find him for more because I don't see him. How can he be great and be on this list one time? X-pac and Roaddog made it one time. WOW

You may be a bigger moron than Meltzer, the guy who nobody respects at all. Nobody cares about your stupid lists. Get over yourself.

The answer is Bret Hart.

Technically everything speaks for itself. So many of his classic matches rank up there at the tops in history, not the best of the Attitude Era. Somebody above me mentioned this, HE FOLLOWED HULK HOGAN! Not to mention the fact that he broke the mold for modern day wrestling as someone who was smaller than your typical face of the company.

He carried matches on his own. He made EVERYONE he ever faced look great. He had a great match with John Pierre Lefiete in 1995! If you don;t know who that is look him up, he's never done anything yet from this one match you would think he was Vader or something.

Bret Hart was definitely the better draw. He was the face of a company that had to deal with the biggest star of all time leaving for the competition. He was the underdog and it worked. Why do you think WCW took over the rating was in 1997? Because Bret was no longer the top guy and it was given to HBK who has shown durign all of his championship runs that he is much more interesting chasing the title than holding it.

HHH was always third to Rock and Austin and there's a reason why he was never #1 and it's because he was boring.

I'm not hating on HHH, he's definitely great but this is no comparison.

Bret put over everybody whereas under the reign of Helmsley he eliminated the Intercontinental Title because he didn't want anybody else to be showcased except for him. He buried everybody he faced and from 2003-2005 (once Rock and Austin were both gone) we witnessed some of the worst main event wrestling in decades and guess who headlined alllllll of those PPVs?

Bret Hart is top-5 superstars of all time and HHH I don't think cracks top 10.

 

[Mantaur Rodeo Clown]

You may be a bigger moron than Meltzer, the guy who nobody respects at all. Nobody cares about your stupid lists. Get over yourself

Great advice.

The answer is Bret Hart.

If this is the answer, you sure as shit reason it poorly.

Technically everything speaks for itself. So many of his classic matches rank up there at the tops in history, not the best of the Attitude Era. Somebody above me mentioned this, HE FOLLOWED HULK HOGAN! Not to mention the fact that he broke the mold for modern day wrestling as someone who was smaller than your typical face of the company.

He followed Hulk Hogan? What does that mean? Brutus Beefcake followed Hogan probably every night into his hotel room, but I hardly put him in the greatest of all time. Yes he had great matches. But there's a problem with that, which I'll address...

He carried matches on his own. He made EVERYONE he ever faced look great. He had a great match with John Pierre Lefiete in 1995! If you don;t know who that is look him up, he's never done anything yet from this one match you would think he was Vader or something.

He had the same match/ Yes he had a great match with John Pierre Laffitte, but it was the exact same match he'd been having with everyone else in 1995. He had a successful formula and stuck to it, which is why he remains terrible overrated. Everyone talks up his match with Mr. Perfect at 1991 Summerslam. It was a great match. So great in fact, that he decided to have it like, 4 more times with Hennig, because they just figured that it works. So they went on to do the same spots at King of the Ring and in WCW. It was just his thing.

Bret Hart was definitely the better draw. He was the face of a company that had to deal with the biggest star of all time leaving for the competition. He was the underdog and it worked.

You realise that the WWF was almost bankrupt in 1995/1996 right? ok cool. So it probably didn't 'work'

Why do you think WCW took over the rating was in 1997? Because Bret was no longer the top guy and it was given to HBK who has shown durign all of his championship runs that he is much more interesting chasing the title than holding it.

Yeah, there so much wrong with this statement I don't even know where to begin. Oh...lets start here. Bret Hart had nothing to do with WCW dominating the ratings. That was due to a thing called the nWo. And they were dominating even when Bret was doing his darndest in the WWF to stay afloat.

HHH was always third to Rock and Austin and there's a reason why he was never #1 and it's because he was boring.

They made him champion. So...technically he was #1. Maybe not outpopping Austin, but no one else ever has besides Hogan.

Bret put over everybody whereas under the reign of Helmsley he eliminated the Intercontinental Title because he didn't want anybody else to be showcased except for him. He buried everybody he faced and from 2003-2005 (once Rock and Austin were both gone) we witnessed some of the worst main event wrestling in decades and guess who headlined alllllll of those PPVs?

You know what my favourite George Harrison song is? Wah Wah.

Crying about the booking has nothing to do with each superstars relative placement in the pantheon of all time greats.

Bret Hart is top-5 superstars of all time and HHH I don't think cracks top 10.

Probably true. But you're terrible at this.

 

[Marky-Marc]

Great advice.



If this is the answer, you sure as shit reason it poorly.



He followed Hulk Hogan? What does that mean? Brutus Beefcake followed Hogan probably every night into his hotel room, but I hardly put him in the greatest of all time. Yes he had great matches. But there's a problem with that, which I'll address...



He had the same match/ Yes he had a great match with John Pierre Laffitte, but it was the exact same match he'd been having with everyone else in 1995. He had a successful formula and stuck to it, which is why he remains terrible overrated. Everyone talks up his match with Mr. Perfect at 1991 Summerslam. It was a great match. So great in fact, that he decided to have it like, 4 more times with Hennig, because they just figured that it works. So they went on to do the same spots at King of the Ring and in WCW. It was just his thing.



You realise that the WWF was almost bankrupt in 1995/1996 right? ok cool. So it probably didn't 'work'



Yeah, there so much wrong with this statement I don't even know where to begin. Oh...lets start here. Bret Hart had nothing to do with WCW dominating the ratings. That was due to a thing called the nWo. And they were dominating even when Bret was doing his darndest in the WWF to stay afloat.



They made him champion. So...technically he was #1. Maybe not outpopping Austin, but no one else ever has besides Hogan.



You know what my favourite George Harrison song is? Wah Wah.

Crying about the booking has nothing to do with each superstars relative placement in the pantheon of all time greats.



Probably true. But you're terrible at this.

So you just felt the need to bash my post, before ultimately agreeing with it? I guess the porn sites are downloading slowly for you today.

Yes he followed Hogan. As in Hogan was the top guy, then it was Bret. Does that make sense to you?

Go watch some old Hart matches. He could adapt to anybody's style whether it was Michaels, Hennig, Diesel, Taker, Vader, Austin, whomever. He didn't have the same matches unless you're referring to the typical face gets beaten down, face makes comeback, face wins. If that's what you mean, I agree.

WCW took over for 2 reasons: The NWO, and poor WWE programming. Just like when WWE started to win again it was for 2 reasons: Stone Cold Steve Austin, and poor WCW programming. WCW never won again after Goldberg beat Hogan for the title because after that it wasn't interesting. Just like viewers didn't find it interesting as soon as "The boyhood dream had come true"

Being champion doesn't make you the face of the company. Was Sheamus the face of the company? Was Benoit? Was David Arquette?

I'm not crying about booking it's pure facts. HHH held down every superstar that was getting a pop during that time. They eliminated the mid-card title for him. Hell he put over Benoit at Mania but then Benoit never sniffed a main even unless HHH was in it with him before he dropped it to one of HHH's buddies.

You really are a clown.

 

[byrnside]

My choice is Triple H and let me tell you why. Don't get it twisted, I am a huge fan of Bret. In fact, both of these guys could easily fill 2 of my top 3 spots, but personally, Triple H is my favorite of all time.

Mantaur Rodeo Clown had it right with one simple fact, Bret wrestles the same match. Let's look at his match against Piper from 'Mania VIII, arguably probably one of my favorite matches. How did it end? With Hart seemingly falling victim to the Sleeper Hold until he kicked off the turnbuckle and pinned Piper's shoulders.. Now let's look at Survivor Series 1996 against Stone Cold.. Once again Hart was seemingly falling victim to the Million Dollar Dream and once again Hart kicked off the turnbuckle and pinned Austin's shoulders to the mat. How about his match from Summerslam 1991 against Mr. Perfect? I guarantee if you watch that match and their rematch at King of the Ring '93 you'll see a lot of similiarities. The same can be said for his matches with Davey Boy Smith. It doesn't mean that I think any of these matches suffered because for it, especially because so many of them happened so far apart. For my money though, I'd much rather see something original. I think that also has to due largely in part of the time Bret came up, when TV was just really getting started. Back in the day you only saw probably one match of a guy's program so they used a lot of the same things over and over until it was done.

Like I said, I'm not trying to knock Bret Hart because he is one of my favorites and without a doubt one of the best wrestlers from the nineties, but I just think Triple H is better.

Triple H has had several matches with every top guy from '97 onward and as far as I can tell every single match was more original than the last. Not to mention Triple H's innovations and contributions to the wrestling business. Triple H is good like Ric Flair was good in the sense that he can make anybody look like a million bucks. Look at his matches with HBK, Austin, The Rock, The Undertaker, etc. Every single one of these guys has a different style and Triple H can adapt accordingly to every single one. Arguably Hart could do that too but only to an extent it would seem. There hasn't been a better heel than Triple H that I can remember since... probably Hollywood Hogan or The Rock [but I always loved cheering for The Rock, face or not.]

 

[theBusiness]

Technically everything speaks for itself. So many of his classic matches rank up there at the tops in history, not the best of the Attitude Era.

No one is denying that Bret had classic matches. That's not the only measuring stick to use.

Somebody above me mentioned this, HE FOLLOWED HULK HOGAN! Not to mention the fact that he broke the mold for modern day wrestling as someone who was smaller than your typical face of the company.

Lol who cares if he followed Hogan? What does that matter? And he broke the mold? Hogan was the first real face of the company. You act as if there had been multiple faces that were all jacked up. No, only one came before Bret.

He carried matches on his own. He made EVERYONE he ever faced look great. He had a great match with John Pierre Lefiete in 1995! If you don;t know who that is look him up, he's never done anything yet from this one match you would think he was Vader or something.

Rick Rude made Ultimate Warrior look good in plenty of matches. Does that mean he ranks higher than HHH?

He was the face of a company that had to deal with the biggest star of all time leaving for the competition. He was the underdog and it worked. Why do you think WCW took over the rating was in 1997? Because Bret was no longer the top guy

HOW DID IT WORK!? 93-95 are heavily considered the worst years in WWE in the past 30 years. And are you really attributing WCW takeover in ratings to Bret no longer being the top guy? First of all, the nWo and innovativity are the main reasons they took over. Second of all, when Bret was at the top in 93-94, Nitro DIDN'T EVEN EXIST, so how in the hell would we be able to compare?

HHH was always third to Rock and Austin and there's a reason why he was never #1

Um, maybe because he was heel. And Rock was always second to Austin, does that mean we should degrade him?

Bret put over everybody whereas under the reign of Helmsley he eliminated the Intercontinental Title because he didn't want anybody else to be showcased except for him.

It's so bullshit how people claim Triple H never puts people over. Just to give TWO examples, he put over Cena and Batista (the two future faces of the company) on the biggest stage for two consecutive years.

Bret Hart is top-5 superstars of all time and HHH I don't think cracks top 10.

Although I don't agree with Bret being top 5, I do agree that it can be argued. It's not a moronic statement. But if you honestly don't think HHH is top 10, then THAT is a moronic statement.

 

[ajwebber1985]

i don't think it's moronic at all to think that HHH isn't in the top 10. Here is my top 10 besides from Bret Hart i'm curious to hear who anyone thinks HHH should replace? I'm not saying he isn't top 10 to some people im just saying he isn't to everyone and honestly I think you can make the case he shouldn't be in the top 10.

1. Hulk Hogan
2. Ric Flair
3. Bret Hart
4. Steve Austin
5. Shawn Michaels
6. Bruno Sammartino
7. Lou Thez
8. Bob Backlund
9. Randy Savage
10. The Rock

 

[Mantaur Rodeo Clown]

So you just felt the need to bash my post, before ultimately agreeing with it? I guess the porn sites are downloading slowly for you today.

Dude I know! Tugjobs.com is going slow as all hell.

Yes he followed Hogan. As in Hogan was the top guy, then it was Bret. Does that make sense to you?

Yes. Well they had to choose someone didn't they? They couldn't just NOT have a champion. So Bret got the strap. To say he matched Hogan in terms of success though is completely ridiculous. He didn't even come close. He was just a placeholder until the next big thing could be found.

Go watch some old Hart matches. He could adapt to anybody's style whether it was Michaels, Hennig, Diesel, Taker, Vader, Austin, whomever. He didn't have the same matches unless you're referring to the typical face gets beaten down, face makes comeback, face wins. If that's what you mean, I agree.

Have you been watching the same matches I have? Because if you were, you would see the same repetitive, 5 move formula. And there's nothing wrong with that mind you, because it was a really good formula. He certainly got a lot out of it. He had his variations for the big guys, and his variations for the smaller guys, but it was the same thing.

WCW took over for 2 reasons: The NWO, and poor WWE programming. Just like when WWE started to win again it was for 2 reasons: Stone Cold Steve Austin, and poor WCW programming. WCW never won again after Goldberg beat Hogan for the title because after that it wasn't interesting. Just like viewers didn't find it interesting as soon as "The boyhood dream had come true"

Right. And you fully realise that you didn't mention Bret Hart once in the paragraph? Alright cool. Because Hart and his departure had nothing to do with WCW's success at all. Well...except in that section where you mentioned poor WWE programming. Because he was certainly on the screen when that was happening.

I'm not crying about booking it's pure facts. HHH held down every superstar that was getting a pop during that time. They eliminated the mid-card title for him. Hell he put over Benoit at Mania but then Benoit never sniffed a main even unless HHH was in it with him before he dropped it to one of HHH's buddies.

What does this have to do with his talent either on the microphone, his ability to draw or his in ring abilities? Nothing. It is irrelevant in this discussion, and is merely a reason that you have the shits with Paul Levesque the person.

You really are a clown.

I have no idea what your name is, so I can't make a joke.

 

[iwinulose]

i have great respect for both bret and triple hhh, bret had a longer career, was an amazing performer, and made a long lasting impact on the wwe universe. he had many great matches, many great feuds, and definately got alot of interest into the wrestling buisness.

triple hhh is an amazing performer, very brutal, raw strength, had many great feuds, wrestled many great matches, went toe to toe with some of the best, always went out there and put on one hell of a great show (dont get me wrong, bret did this as well).

as for my choice, i would have to say triple hhh. a tough call cause the 2 are almost on par with each other, but im gonna stick to my guns and say that triple hhh wins this one.

 

[Big Nick Dudley]

I won't compare drawing power, because it's a wash. Neither guy is a draw on the level of Hogan, Austin, Rock, etc. So, that really doesn't mean anything here.

Personally, I think Bret could work circles around HHH. I have always enjoyed Hunter, but nowhere near how much I cared for Bret Hart. I think HHH is the better talker, but I'd watch a Bret Hart match, with any opponent, any day of the week over anything involving HHH.

I think HHH is in the same conversation with Bret Hart when it comes to where they rank all time. I think Hogan, Austin and Flair have the top three locked up, with Andre right behind them. After that, several guys fall in line. I would place Bret above HHH, but not by a mile. Bret is probably in the Top 5, and I think HHH is in, or close to, the Top 10.

 

[bigbootydaddyV]

I am sick of hearing the whole Bret had the same matches crap, if Bret has had the same matches then you bet your ass EVERYONE else has as well... it's just the way it is, no one is going to wrestle hundreds of matches and have each one be unique, particularly when these guys gotta get a rhythm down to remember it all and make it look good. Hell, during HHH Taker, the first half was damn near a repeat of Shawn Taker, with the same kick outs and reactions. Bret did his flip out of the sleeper move twice and now he has repetitive matches? really? Nevermind the fact that bret pulled those moves off during a time when you'd only see a match end with a finisher, he was the only one to give a different ending. And him and perfect had a similar match at KOTR as they did at summerslam... try wrestling 3 different matches in one night and not trying to make it a little easier on yourself. Bret has had matches with giants, high flyers, technicians, and bumbling bafoons and he made each and every one of them look good in the ring. HHH-Goldberg and HHH-Steiner were probably 2 of the worst matches of all time despite the hype for them. HHH was always only as good as his opponents yet bret made brought every one of his opponents to his level, the same way shawn did. While I wouldn't have backlund in the top 10 and i'd maybe swap him out with taker or sting, I'd still say HHH doesn't crack the top 10. Bret was a top 5 superstar, worst case, top 10, never out of that conversation. He was in the WWE at a time when wrestling in general was at it's lowest (since Hogan left) and he still managed to keep it going, and more importantly, he helped position 2 of the 3 future guys to take it to the next level (shawn and austin but not rock). HHH was a good role player in the wwe, but never a good leader, he didn't have anything near the international appeal that Bret had. If it weren't for Rock and Austin WWE would never have came back to beat wcw, hhh was hardly a reason for that. There are a lot of things i don't like about hhh but overall i respect him for the passion he has, but he is hardly on that upper echelon that bret, shawn, hogan, austin, rock, etc. are on.

 

[Marky-Marc]

Dude I know! Tugjobs.com is going slow as all hell.



Yes. Well they had to choose someone didn't they? They couldn't just NOT have a champion. So Bret got the strap. To say he matched Hogan in terms of success though is completely ridiculous. He didn't even come close. He was just a placeholder until the next big thing could be found.



Have you been watching the same matches I have? Because if you were, you would see the same repetitive, 5 move formula. And there's nothing wrong with that mind you, because it was a really good formula. He certainly got a lot out of it. He had his variations for the big guys, and his variations for the smaller guys, but it was the same thing.



Right. And you fully realise that you didn't mention Bret Hart once in the paragraph? Alright cool. Because Hart and his departure had nothing to do with WCW's success at all. Well...except in that section where you mentioned poor WWE programming. Because he was certainly on the screen when that was happening.



What does this have to do with his talent either on the microphone, his ability to draw or his in ring abilities? Nothing. It is irrelevant in this discussion, and is merely a reason that you have the shits with Paul Levesque the person.



I have no idea what your name is, so I can't make a joke.

Nowhere did I say he had the success that Hogan did, he didn't. My point was that in 1993 somebody had the big task of trying to fill Hogan's shoes (boots?) and if they picked the wrong person, like Crush as some rumors may lead to believe, then it could've fallen very flat very fast but Bret took the company and ran with it becoming the new top guy.

The same 5-move formula is used by every superstar who has success at the end of their matches. I guess you just fast forward to the end though? You just said it yourself, he had variations with big men and variations with guys his own size, soooo how is that the same? Watch his match with Diesel at Survivor Series 95, then his match with Owen at Mania 10 and his match with Perfect at SummerSlam 91. No similiarities and all very good. Where as HHH just hits his 5-move formula (which I agree is fine to do) then pulls out a sledgehammer. Most of HHHs great matches are of the hardcore style or in the Cell or whatever and really, those matches aren't incredibly difficult to make successful.

I was speaking in a general sense for you to understand but I guess you're too cool being sarcastic to have an intelligent comeback. Bret was on screen during WWE programming, very good, but he wasn;t the reason for the poor programming, it was the same period of time where they removed him as top dog and gave it to HBK.

Your last point makes me shake my head. We were discussing how HHH doesn't put people over in his matches and you're wondering what it has to do with mic work and in-ring abilities? I can't help you, but I'm sure tugjobs can.

 

[Marky-Marc]

No one is denying that Bret had classic matches. That's not the only measuring stick to use.



Lol who cares if he followed Hogan? What does that matter? And he broke the mold? Hogan was the first real face of the company. You act as if there had been multiple faces that were all jacked up. No, only one came before Bret.



Rick Rude made Ultimate Warrior look good in plenty of matches. Does that mean he ranks higher than HHH?



HOW DID IT WORK!? 93-95 are heavily considered the worst years in WWE in the past 30 years. And are you really attributing WCW takeover in ratings to Bret no longer being the top guy? First of all, the nWo and innovativity are the main reasons they took over. Second of all, when Bret was at the top in 93-94, Nitro DIDN'T EVEN EXIST, so how in the hell would we be able to compare?



Um, maybe because he was heel. And Rock was always second to Austin, does that mean we should degrade him?



It's so bullshit how people claim Triple H never puts people over. Just to give TWO examples, he put over Cena and Batista (the two future faces of the company) on the biggest stage for two consecutive years.



Although I don't agree with Bret being top 5, I do agree that it can be argued. It's not a moronic statement. But if you honestly don't think HHH is top 10, then THAT is a moronic statement.

You have managed to show your level of intelligence after one sentence. You're right. Great matches are not the only measuring stick for greatness. However, I went on to make an entire post giving my other reasons why Bret is better than HHH, and you responded to them. I could see this isn't going to be easy for you.

Yes he broke the mold. Most champions were of the big muscular variety like Hogan, Sammartino, Billy Graham, but I guess when you only know wrestling from the Attitude Era on you wouldn't get that.

In terms of putting people over, yeah, I'd rank Rud higher than HHH. You're taking every little piece of my post and making it seem like that one example is the only example I'm giving for my logic. Are you reading everything or just commenting one at a time?

No I'm not saying that Bret being lower on the card is why WCW took over but WCW definitely gained a good amount of WWE-watchers while Shawn was on top.

Just because he lost a match, doesn't mean he put guys over. He put Cena over yes but that was when it was clear Cena was the top guy now and would be for a long time. He won at Mania 22 after holding the title for a year minus 3 weeks where Edge had it.
And as far as Batista goes. There are certainly ways of making yourself look better than your opponent while losing a match. 1. Their match was horribly boring and the ending was so anti-climactic. 2. HHH has this huge entrance where all of the attention is on him and then Batista just casually walks down the aisle as if he were the referee or something. 3. Batista falls into the small category of HHHs buddies that he doesn't mind putting over once in a while; HBK, Orton, Batista, Sheamus....that's it.

Somebody above me stole my thunder and made a list of top 10 superstars and clearly HHH doesn't fit in to it. Hogan, Flair, Austin, HBK, Rock, Taker are all people that HHH has fueded with that he ranks behind all time.

 

[The Crock]

Bret Hart. Triple H is good, he's damn good, but he's no Bret Hart. The Hitman was THE MAN in the WWF for quite a few years. When was Triple H the man? Never. He never had the torch passed to him. He's always been near the top, but he's never been at the very top. For a large part of his career, he played second fiddle. He was second to Shawn Michaels, then he couldn't touch Rock or Austin in terms of success, then he had his moment at the top, which is widely considered one of the worst times in WWE history. To me, that all spells that HHH never should be the top guy. He's much more successful when there's a Cena, a Rock, an Austin, a Michaels above him.

Bret Hart is undoubtedly better. Like I said, HHH is good, but he's just no Bret Hart.

 

[ajwebber1985]

just a thought i wonder if this debate really is generational. I mean i assume if you are 25 and older you probably think Bret is the better wrestler and if you're younger you probably are going to say HHH. For those of us over 25 we seen Bret week in and week out in the late 80's and early 90's where those of you who are younger than 25 only really have seen Bret on TV in the Monday Night War Era of 97-2001. Admittedly, so as a huge Bret fan i can honestly say his career took a sharp turn down after the Survivor Series of 1997. Read his book, watch the DVD he had and he himself will admit that WCW had no clue what to do with Bret. Vince McMahon himself said that WCW missed a golden opportunity to make Bret the franchise. For those of us who grew up on Superstars, Wrestling Challenge, and Prime Time Bret was one of the main wrestlers featured on that show even before he hit the big time. Bret was featured more times on WWF Superstars than was Hulk Hogan during an era when Hogan dominated, so I believe a lot of us admittedly, so have a bias towards him just as the younger folks may not realize how great Bret really was. ....just for the record i'm 25.

 

[Mazzaroti78]

You may be a bigger moron than Meltzer, the guy who nobody respects at all. Nobody cares about your stupid lists. Get over yourself.

The answer is Bret Hart.

Technically everything speaks for itself. So many of his classic matches rank up there at the tops in history, not the best of the Attitude Era. Somebody above me mentioned this, HE FOLLOWED HULK HOGAN! Not to mention the fact that he broke the mold for modern day wrestling as someone who was smaller than your typical face of the company.

He carried matches on his own. He made EVERYONE he ever faced look great. He had a great match with John Pierre Lefiete in 1995! If you don;t know who that is look him up, he's never done anything yet from this one match you would think he was Vader or something.

Bret Hart was definitely the better draw. He was the face of a company that had to deal with the biggest star of all time leaving for the competition. He was the underdog and it worked. Why do you think WCW took over the rating was in 1997? Because Bret was no longer the top guy and it was given to HBK who has shown durign all of his championship runs that he is much more interesting chasing the title than holding it.

HHH was always third to Rock and Austin and there's a reason why he was never #1 and it's because he was boring.

I'm not hating on HHH, he's definitely great but this is no comparison.

Bret put over everybody whereas under the reign of Helmsley he eliminated the Intercontinental Title because he didn't want anybody else to be showcased except for him. He buried everybody he faced and from 2003-2005 (once Rock and Austin were both gone) we witnessed some of the worst main event wrestling in decades and guess who headlined alllllll of those PPVs?

Bret Hart is top-5 superstars of all time and HHH I don't think cracks top 10.

So apparently when I get evidence to support an argument from perhaps the biggest Bret Hart mark in the world(Meltzer) and the individual that IDK every news outlet in the world runs to when something happens in wrestling but in your world no one listens to him and he's a moron too.

Do me a favor, find some evidence that supports your argument besides your eyes because you never saw a single gate receipt from any house show Bret Hart main evented.

Marky-Marc while you are a great fan and your opinions are welcome, you are also a symbol of what a MARK is. Someone who believes what they saw regardless of the evidence otherwise. If Jesus came and told you Bret Hart didn't draw more than HHH you'd probably tell him to go screw himself. The truth is there for others to read for themselves no matter if you want to believe it or not.

HHH is number 5 in WWE history, Bret Hart is number 13. Find me a credible source to refute that then we can have a real intelligent debate.

Like I said before and provided ample evidence to; Bret Hart is the better wrestler BUT HHH is the better money DRAW. I don't understand what is so hard about accepting that as fact because it is a FACT no matter how many people you call moron or any other name, Bret Hart will still be 13th and HHH will still be 5th!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Marky-Marc]

So apparently when I get evidence to support an argument from perhaps the biggest Bret Hart mark in the world(Meltzer) and the individual that IDK every news outlet in the world runs to when something happens in wrestling but in your world no one listens to him and he's a moron too.

Do me a favor, find some evidence that supports your argument besides your eyes because you never saw a single gate receipt from any house show Bret Hart main evented.

Marky-Marc while you are a great fan and your opinions are welcome, you are also a symbol of what a MARK is. Someone who believes what they saw regardless of the evidence otherwise. If Jesus came and told you Bret Hart didn't draw more than HHH you'd probably tell him to go screw himself. The truth is there for others to read for themselves no matter if you want to believe it or not.

HHH is number 5 in WWE history, Bret Hart is number 13. Find me a credible source to refute that then we can have a real intelligent debate.

Like I said before and provided ample evidence to; Bret Hart is the better wrestler BUT HHH is the better money DRAW. I don't understand what is so hard about accepting that as fact because it is a FACT no matter how many people you call moron or any other name, Bret Hart will still be 13th and HHH will still be 5th!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't care how big of a mark Meltzer is, he's been known to be a liar and incredibly baised therefore his opinions are always taken with a grain of salt. And people run to him for info for their DIRT SHEET sites because he provides info and it makes people like you and I click on it and it just generates traffic to the website.

For some reason you're obsessed with HHH being a bigger draw but that still doesn't make him better overall. It's just one aspect and I think Hart prevails in all the other ones. Wrestling was never more popular than during the Attitude Era so the figures are skewed anyway.

But you're right I've never seen a receipt from a gate but if Meltzer told you that YOU could be a big draw in the business you'd probably post that and believe it too.

 

[oogieboogie]

Bret Hart bar none when it comes to actual wrestling!

HHH when it comes to mic skills.


Oh to those posting those top draw stats. The only way i guess you can really compare is via merchandise sales. Though you would need to take inflation into account. The stats about drawing with high attendances, i never really understood. So for example if Bret was at an event with 30,000 people and you have Hogan, Warrior and Savage there, that doesn't mean he is a bigger draw. How many of those 30,000 have come to see Bret??? The same goes for HHH at an event with Austin, Rock and UT.

I guess it is also harder to be a top draw in certain points in history then others. Around the time Bret was champion in the early 90's, i don't think WWF was booming. So i believe only certain wrestlers would have been a top draw (Hogan and Warrior?). Whereas when people say HHH was a top draw around 2000, wrestling was booming. The attitude era was in full effect (thanks largely to Austin and Rock). I would say HHH was in the right place at the right time. How would Bret and HHH faired, if they switched around the years???

 

[AttitudeAJM]

You can't compare Triple H and Bret Hart when it comes to drawing because Triple H never had to draw by himself.

Bret Hart, Randy Savage, Ultimate Warrior, and British Bulldog helped to draw 80,000 people to Wembley Stadium in the UK. Triple H, Steve Austin, and The Rock helped to draw 67,000 in Texas. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that both were in two separate eras of wrestling that had completely different circumstances.

 

[Calderownz]

I wouldn't argue with anyone, regardless of whom they chose. However, I'd go with Bret Hart.

When I think of Bret's matches, I get goosebumps. I just love the way he perfected his craft. When I think of Three H's matches, I just think of why they happened and what lead into them. Both intrigue me, but to me, the matches stand the test of time, not the story lines. For me -- most of the time -- anyway.

Still, one was the better in-ring performer and the other had more of the other intangibles. Both are greats, obviously.