Top 3 title changes

[XxXEGfanXxX]

I want you to name your top 3 title changes and why? The title can range from the european to WWE championships.
My top 3 are
3.Chris Jericho Becoming Undisputed-A monumental win for Jericho he deserved it he payed his dues to be the 1st ever Undisputed Champion.
2.Chris Benoit vs Triple H vs HBK-Chris Benoit deserved it the match was Solid but even though Benoit won I found it as a fluke because he only had like 2 or 3 spots.
1.Brock Lesnar vs Eddie Guerrero-The best in my opinion Eddie was in the business 4 20plus years he deserved it and it couldn't of happen in a better promotion.The match was ok Brock tried to keep up with a ring general like eddie but if you watch the match he couldn't keep up. The finish were eddie DDT him on the gold then frog splash was the icing on the cake.

These are the greatest IMO.
What are yours?

 

[Viola Moonlight]

Ah... good question. But why is it in the RAW section? Shouldn't this be in the WWE are?

Oh well, I shall answer anyway.

1) I will have to agree with the Chris Jericho becoming Undisputed Champion. Such a great win & accomplishment for the man who deserved it. With the opponents like The Rock, Steve Austin & Kurt Angle... I did not think for one second to consider Jericho of all people to win.

2) Trish Stratus vs. Mickie James @ WrestleMania 22 for the Women's Title. This match was a do or die for Mickie. Winning that match meant that she would one day become one of the greatest, which she has already achieved with 5 title runs, very close in breaking Trish's record. The storyline for this match kept me on the edge of my seat as well.

3) The Montreal Screwjob. When HBK won the championship from the Hitman via applying the Sharpshooter... though I have only seen the match as apart of combined youtube clips, the decision of the match to give HBK the belt was totally confusing. I find it funny how the show ended with both HBK & Hart pissed off after the match finished at VKM with HHH & others convincing HBK to get out of the arena as quickly as possible.

 

[TroubleInParadise]

No mick foley winning the wwe championship?Dude is wicked nice and I've pretty much never heard anyone say a bad thing about him outside of the ring.Plus it pushed the wwe to top spot during the attitude era.

 

[sports_fan_2007]

3 Undertaker vs Batista- IMO Undertaker was LONG overdue for this title reign even if it wasnt that long. It had some great matches with Batista over the title
2 Edge vs Cena- Well being a huge edge fan this was easy. Even though he didnt really have to anything to get the title as Cena jus finished an Elimination chamber It got his hole heel run goin and also started the Rated R Superstar and got him the nickname the ultimate opurtunist and was the first of his 9 so great accomplishment
1 Jeff hardy vs Edge- This was my favorite because I had believed Jeff was long over due and this showed that WWE does in fact grant 2nd chances. No one thought he would get after his drug problem but he worked his ass off and look where he is now.

 

[supersayian]

Y2J winning the undisputed tittle was by far the biggest ever. he beat three of wwe top talent. he deserved it. but i think Rock or Steve should have had that honor.

2 Mankind winning the Tittle from Rock huge moment in wwe history. biggest in Raw history for sure. great match shocking finish.

3 Austin beating Rock at WM 2001 in Houston. this was big because after he joined the biggest snake in wwe history that he fought with for years to just get the tittle back. his boss Vince. as JR put it he sold his soul to the devil.

my biggest ones for next year will be Morrison winning the Rumble.

2 Taker vs Y2J at WM

3 HHH turning heel.

 

[BernacK6]

1) HBK vs. Bret Hart, WWF Title, Wrestlemania 12. The culmination of the best written, two year story in WWF/E history. HBK's pursuit of his boyhood dream was by far the greatest individual accomplishment, not to mention one of the top 2 best wrestled matches in Wrestlemania history.

2) Razor Ramon vs Diesel, Intercontinental Title, Summerslam 1994. In the newly opened United Center in Chicago, with Bears legend Walter Payton in his corner, Razor Ramon overcame months of HBK interference and tormenting to win back the (at the time) prestigious IC Title. Not only did this mark Razor's 2nd reign as IC Championship, but it signalled the beginning of the end for the HBK-Diesel relationship (which would eventually end at that year's Survivor Series, culminating in their match at Wrestlemania 11 after HBK's classic Royal Rumble win). The pop for Razor was deafening.

3) Undertaker vs. Sycho Sid, WWF Title, Wrestlemania 13. A personal favorite because I was there. Undertaker became the first man not to win the Royal Rumble and go on to Wrestlemania and win the title (since the stipulation that the Royal Rumble winner would Main Event Wrestlemania was conceived). An all around classic big man match. Both guys worked super hard, and Undertaker was on top of his game in all facets. I was more excited later on in my life to know that I was live for Win #6 of Undertaker's current 17-0 WM Streak.

 

[KillBill]

1. Hogan over Iron Sheik. It started the whole Hulkamania thing, and the rest is history.

2. Bulldog over Hitman at SS '92. Why? Because it may be the only time in history where for one night, the I.C. belt was the biggest title on the planet, and it ME a major PPV in front of 80,000 people, and the pop for Bulldog was insane. Granted it was in WEmbley stadium, but that will never be touched in comparison. EVER. Youtube it if you haven't seen it.

3. Diesel over Bob Backlund. 8 seconds. Diesel may have had the quickest face/push combo in history. He hadn't even become full face, and he got a title shot just a few days after Backlund won it. This was a great move, Diesel carried WWE for the next year, and this was risky, because there weren't many other top face options, they hit lightening in a bottle with that 1.

I know if i thought more about it I'd come up with others, but that was off the top of my head ones that I don't think other people would mention. They were some of my favorites, although the last one may not be considered huge.

 

[People's Elbow]

3) Mick Foley/The Rock Raw 99' Ahh the days when meaningful titles changed hands on RAW. What a surprise it was to see. And that pop when Austin's music hit? Amazing.

2)Austin/HBK Mania XV Kick start of the Austin era. Self explanatory

1) Screwjob.

 

[Hanik]

Some of you guys are showing your age lol (as in your young).
3.Goldberg defeats Hogan (Nitro) the Peak in WCW and why they were the top company at that time
2.HBK defeats Hitman (mania 12) HBK is the new champ and face of the company in the greatest match ever imo
1.Austin defeats Bret (wrestlemania 14) Attitude Era comes full circle

 

[hArdyPUNKmArk]

1. Chris Jericho - Undisputed Champion. As everyone els has said this was a massive moment for Jericho. He beat The Rock and Stone Cold in the same night for fucks sake, awesome moment and totally unexpected.

2. Jeff Hardy - WWE Championship 2008. This was a big moment for myself. He was my childhood hero and to see him finally get the WWE title was awesome and the celebration on RAW was amazing. It's a real pity the actual title reign was pretty horrible.

3. RVD - One Night Stand 2006. When RVD won the title from Cena in front of that crowd.... Fuck, such a crowd reaction. I loved the heat Cena got, total passion from that crowd. Awesome title change, really into that one.

 

[The Roid Rage]

I know that hbk vs hitman at mania 12 was the greatest match of all time but it asnt the most signifigant. The 3 most signifigant title in order of signifigance
3.Goldberg defeats Hogan (Nitro) the Peak in WCW and why they were the top company at that time
2.Austin defeats Bret (wrestlemania 14) Attitude Era comes full circle
1.Hogan defeats Andre the Giant (wrestlemania 3) the brains Vince and the superstar truly establish the precedent of PPVs and what Wrestlemania means

This is probably the most accurate top 3 you will ever get as it pertains to all of wrestling not just WWF/E or favorite matches. Those are arguably the most significant title changes in history. I would have to argue that you could replace the Hogan-Goldberg with Hogan-Warrior though. That was another passing of the torch in a lot of ways and does serve as a very significant title change in history. My favorites however.....

Wrestlemania 19, Brock Lesnar def. Kurt Angle for the WWE Undisputed Championship. This is an easy top 10 Match of all time for me. Even though it was a bit botched, seeing a 6 ft 4 inch 296lb'er to a shooting star press was one of the coolest things I've ever seen. Kurt Angle also showed why he is one of the best to ever wrestle as well, Angle Slamming the much larger and much stronger Lesnar all the while wrestling like a true legend.

Summer Slam 1991, Bret Hart def Mr.Perfect for the Intercontinental Championship. Two of my favorites of all time, and two of the best to ever enter the squared circle. This match had it all at the time. Bret was entering his prime, while Mr. Perfect was arguably at the height of his fame in WWF. This match stole the show, and solidified Bret Hart as a true champion and future World Champion.

Wrestlemania X, Razor Ramon def Shawn Michaels for the Intercontinental Championship. Need I say more. This is one of the most historic matches in wrestling history. As you all know it set the bar for what all the future superstars would try to recreate including these two men once again at Summer Slam the next year. I had never seen two people put their bodies on the line like this before, and it had one of most climactic endings I had ever seen.

It is my firm belief that most of the best matches in history were fought for the Intercontinental Championship, most notably the classic version of this title. There was a time for those of you who weren't around or don't know, when the Intercontinental Championship was more revered than the WWF World Championship. At one time, Intercontinental Championship matches sometimes headlined big pay per views, and the Intercontinental Champion was considered better than the WWF World Champion at times. The classic version of this title was one of the most beautiful belts to ever grace the ring, and one of the most fought over titles in history. It really used to mean something, and was more than a prop, it was an honor.

 

[sports_fan_2007]

Yeah my friend has the history of the IC belt dvd and Ive gone through it and back in the day before the combined it with the european belt i believe it was you could not get into the world title pic without having held this belt and the matched were amazing. So for the second time tonight Rage im going to agree with you and say that the matches for this title were some of the best in history...hell just look at the history of the belt...it says everything

 

[cenasucks52]

I think only a few people really got the meaning of this...not just your favorite changes but I think it means the BIGGEST title changes in history so I have my opinion of the 3 biggest changes in history starting from 3

#3: Kurt Angle winning WCW Title...how surreal was this...the WCW Title(imo at this time was lower than IC title) but the WCW World Title won by a WWF guy on a WWF event

#2: Steve Austin winning WWF Title from Shawn Michaels...start of the real attitude era

#1: Hulk Hogan winning WWF Title from Iron Sheik...this sent wrestling mainstream

 

[FromTheSouth]

3. Wrestlemania V - Hulk Hogan over Randy Savage. This was the peak of 80's wrestling. The match was two years in the making, and involved Andre the Giant, Bobby Heenan, Ted DiBiase, and Miss Elizabeth in strong supporting roles. The Mega Powers split on SNME was one of the most shocking moments ever in wrestling. All of the cross promotion with MTV, cartoon series, Mr. T, and all of pop culture led to this very match. And, for once, the payoff was memorable.

2. Wrestlemania VI - Ultimate Warrior beat Hulk Hogan in the best match either of them could ever hope to have. This was the first passing of the torch. Forget about Warrior's reign, think only about the moment. Those of you who witnessed it live had strong feelings one way or the other, but I was in elementary school, and I will tell you right now, that the buzz moving toward the event was pro-Warrior, and it was all we talked about the next day.

1. Austin over Michaels - Whereas Hogan over Savage and Warrior over Hogan exhibited pay off in it's greatest forms, this title change changed the business. It gave birth to the biggest star of the new era. It was an amazing match, with a great swerve. The use of Mike Tyson got just enough national coverage to catapult the WWE in the ratings and the public consciousness. Stone Cole made wrestling cool again. This match, whether you know it or not, is the reason most of our members are on this forum.

 

[mister_b1LL]

1. Jericho def. The Rock+Stone Cold for the Undisputed Championship. To beat one of them is one thing. To beat both of them is another. To have a guy like Jericho beat the both of them in the same night to become the first ever Undisputed Champion when most thought Austin or The Rock would do it is a whole 'nother thing.

2. Eddie Guerrero def. Brock Lesnar for the WWE Championship. I grew up watching and idolizing Eddie from the start. To finally see him get the brass ring was a very emotinal moment for me.

3. Undertaker def. Batista for the World Heavyweight Championship. Like sports_fan_2007 said, Undertaker was long overdue for a title and to see him win it after about 5 some odd years made me happy. It would be nice if his reign lasted longer.

Honorable Mentions: Triple H def. Chris Jericho for the Undisputed Title following surgery. To come back from a possible career-ending injury and win the Undisputed Championship is an amazing feat. Out of Triple H's 14 some odd title reigns, this is the one I feel he deserved the most.

 

[The Instant Classic]

i will give you the number 1 title change in the history of the business IMO.




IN THE FUTURE WWE-------
"Captain Charisma" Christian pins whoever is champion for his first REAL world title reign. he deserves it probly more than anyone on the roster. in 2009-2010 the cap'n will make it happen!

 

[It's...Baylariat!]

Top 3 Title Changes

1) Stone Cold beating Shawn Michaels at WM

Like what was said before, not many title changes impact the entire wrestling landscape. This one did. It was Austin's launch into the ICON status which he has today. Without this match, you don't hear, "What?" in arenas today, you don't mark out when you hear glass break, and Shawn Michaels...well, he'd still be where he is today.

2) Ric Flair beating Harley Race at Starrcade '83

Many are too young to remember this, and so am I, but without this match, Ric Flair ceases to exist. Plain and simple. He was great before this, but he became a legend in this match. Pure physical wrestling inside a cage that was a legit weapon with spurs on the top of it.

3) Undertaker beating Hulk Hogan for the WWF World Title

Undertaker became a big time player after this match. Hulkamania was phased out and the Deadman became someone to be feared for years to come. This match made two things happen.

1) It made Taker a superstar
2) It proved that Hulkamania was indeed phasing out in its original form.

 

[The Holy One]

1. Wrestlemania XX - Chris Benoit defeated Triple H and Shawn Michaels for the World Heavyweight title. One of my favorite wrestlers to watch when I was a kid. I remembered being sad when he won the WCW title at Soulded Out 2000, and then they stripped him of it the next day b/c he went to the WWE. I was screaming my head off when HHH tapped out to the Crossface. Then when he Eddie hugged in the ring, that'll be a night I will never forget.

2. Summerslam 2004 - Randy Orton defeated Chris Benoit for the World Heavyweight Title. I didn't know whether to be pissed that Benoit loss or to be shocked that Orton won to become the youngest world champion ever. I think this was the moment and the weeks that follow that turned me into an Orton fan.

3. Wrestlemania X-7 - Stone Cold Steve Austin defeated The Rock for the WWE Heavyweight Title. I just couldn't believe that Austin had joined sides with McMahon. I was going for the Rock in this match, but I wouldn't have mind that much if Austin won since I liked him too. Though when he screwed the Rock by hitting him with that chair, I was extremely pissed. I think Austin was my most hated wrestler for that year.

3. I just couldn't live with myself if I didn't put this one on so it's tied with Austin/Rock.
Wrestlemania IV - Randy Savage defeated The Million Dollar Man Ted Dibiase for the WWE Heavyweight Title. This is one of the few matches that I remember from my early childhood as a wrestling fan. It was everything a title match needed it drama, excitement, etc. When Hulk Hogan came out to help Savage, I just lost it, and when Savage won boy was there a party at my house. Me, my dad, and brother were screaming to see Savage finally win especially my brother b/c Savage was his favorite wrestler at the time, and mine's was Hogan. We would argue all the time one year later when they faced each other at WM V. He was speechless when Hogan won and I was just lmao at him.

 

[klunderbunker]

WOW. Seriously, are you all 12? I could likely do one of these for every year before 1997, so let's see what a real list should look like.

3. Let's kick it off with the Original Screwjob, as Wendi Richter loses to Spider Lady, who is revealed to be Fabulous Moolah. Richter was a HUGE deal in the company at the time, even headlining a few house shows. A women's title match headlined house shows. yes you read that right. ANyway, she was booked in a title match against a masked woman. The masked woman turned it into a shoot and took the belt, only to reveal herself to be Moolah, who wasn't supposed to be the opponent. Richter left the company immediately, never to be seen again.

2. Savage over Flair - Mania 8. This was a big deal for the WWF as it showed that the company could have a big title change and a great show without Hogan being involved in the title. Savage and Flair tore the roof off the place, or at least they would if there was a roof and not a dome. it was a freaking war with so much emotion in it, giving Savage his second title reign.

1. Hogan over Sheik. How can this not be the most important title change of all time? At Madison Square Garden, an almost newcomer beats the reigning world heavyweight champion and holds the belt for four long years. As Gorilla put it, Hulkamania is here. Does anything else need to be said at all?

 

[Christian Battlez]

3.) The Rock def. Mankind at Survivor Series Deadly Games to become the Corporate Champion: This was the Rocks first title win and the start of the Peoples Champion becoming the corporate champion. This match started one of the best feuds ever in Foley/Rock. It had a great swerve and it made Rock a star.

2.) Steve Austin def. Shawn Michaels: The start of the Attitude Era. I struggled over whether this deserved to be number one or not but it takes a back seat to one change.

1.) Hulk Hogan def. Iron Sheik to win his first WWF championship: The beginning of Hulkamania. Hogan/Andre, Hogan/Warrior none of these things happen without Hogan beating Sheik here.

 

[SavageTaker]

3.) Ric Flair defeating Harley Race in 1983:This match is the first ever main-event of the Starrcade pay per view. That’s something very big, in case some of you don’t know; Starrcade was the NWA’s biggest pay per view, it was the NWA’s Wrestlemania. This match was the match in which Harley Race passed on the torch to Ric Flair. Flair was the man that was chosen to lead the NWA and without this match happening, we might not remember Flair for his work in the NWA.

2.)Hulk Hogan defeating The Iron Sheik: This was a very important match for Vince and the WWF. Why was it such an important match for them? Because this match is the match that forced Hulkamania to be born. If this match didn’t happen Hulk Hogan may not have been as big as he was. The Iron Sheik was holding the WWF title at the time and he played the Anti-American heel that everyone wanted to see defeated for the title. No one wanted to see him hold the title and so came in Hogan and defeated Sheik. He was instantly popular and over because he defeated the guy everyone hated. Hulkamania was born because of this match and as they say, the rest is history.

1.)Frank Gotch defeating Georg Hackenschmidt in 1908:This is one of the most important matches in the history of pro-wrestling. Without this match happening, there probably wouldn’t be a WWE or TNA today. There wouldn’t have been a WCW, NWA, AWA, or any other wrestling promotion. Gotch won this match and became the first ever unified champion. Like I said, without this title match happening then we probably wouldn’t be seeing any of those companies I listed and many more. Meaning, there would be no Hogan, Flair, Savage, Sammartino, Thesz, and the list goes on and on. This was a truly historical and probably the most important title match in the history of professional wrestling.

 

[The Mizard of Oz]

The top title change ever would have to be Austin going over Michaels at WrestleMania XIV. It officially ushered in the Attitude Era, which saved the WWF. Two weeks later, they would finally beat WCW in the ratings for the first time in a year and a half.

My two favorite title changes that I can recall are Mick Foley over the Rock and RVD over John Cena. Talk about a long time coming in both instances. Foley had been killing himself for over ten years and deserved to be honored as one of the best in the business. It should also be noted that his title victory proved to be the death knell for WCW.

As for RVD, he should have become the champion in 2002. From the moment he stepped foot in the WWF, he was ******edly over.

 

[TheOneBigWill]

3. W.C.W Heavyweight Championship: "Hollywood" Hulk Hogan (c) v. Bill Goldberg:​

I can't truthfully stand either guy, but this Championship match was the one saving grace W.C.W had toward the end. Goldberg's victory, was in all honesty the first of it's kind against a guy like Hulk Hogan.

While people can throw out the Ultimate Warrior's name in this opinion, the fact is - Goldberg was still more or less a raw, green rookie when he flat-out dominated and pretty much squashed Hulk Hogan. Even in the Mania VI match, against Warrior, Hogan almost kicked out at the end of that match and to some it looked like he did kick out, right at the final count of 3.

This match, however, was on Free-TV, in the home (Atlanta, GA) of the Company, in front of a soldout crowd. It was a revolutionary step for the Company, in trying to stay above water. (so to speak) And had Goldberg not been complete shit, this would've been a great move. Even with my feelings on Goldberg put aside, this was a great move by W.C.W because Goldberg was at the top of his game, and arguably one of the biggest names in the Business - even over the likes of The Rock and Steve Austin.

2. W.W.F Championship: Ric Flair (c) v. Bret Hart:​

The only reason this isn't my Top favorite, is because the initial run Bret Hart had, going off the Champions that were crowned to follow, was a failure and a setback. Of course, by that I'm referring to Wrestlemania IX, and the fact that Hart was given the ball and the leadership role of the New Generation, only for Hogan to once again come in, steal the spotlight and the ball back for a few months, and completely overlap everything Hart had accomplished in the several months he'd reigned as Champion.

None the less, this match is 2nd on my all-time list, because it was an attempt at passing the so-called torch. Bret Hart was clearly a great future prospect to be the leader for several years to come, and it was the right move to make. Unfortunately, Hogan still resided within the Company and made everything a failure in the end, but before that.. I believe this was a great step from the titan-looking monsters like Warrior, Hogan & Savage.. to the next Generation of Hart, Michaels, and others to come.

1. W.C.W Champion - David Arquette?​

While I could've went with any number of matches. Hogan/Warrior and Mania VI, Flair/Sting for the NWA/WCW title, Jericho's Undisputed reign, or even Hogan/The Iron Sheik.. I went with David Arquette's victory and Championship win, as being the #1 title change in Wrestling history.

Why? Simple.. because it was this event that showed the world just how stupid, just how fake, and just how meaningless.. the Heavyweight Championship of the World, really is/was. To give your top prize, your Holy Grail, to a movie star (and a bad one, at that) was a slap in the face of everyone who poured their blood, sweat and tears into the ring. It was a move made, to make extra money through the cameras. But it was a move made, than also showed the world why Professional Wrestling is the laughing stock of the Professional Sports realm.

Superbowls aren't handed out to Celebs. World Series Championships and NBA Championships aren't given to Famous People. Those are legit Championships that are all earned, through hardwork and actual determination.

Whereas the World Heavyweight Championship of Professional Wrestling was ****ed out to a B-Grade actor, who's famous only because of the Woman he tries to satisfy nightly. This isn't my favorite title change. And its definitely not the best. But it damn sure is, the most significant.

 

[GJM316]

The three I have picked have all been mentioned before and with good reason. They are -

1) Survivor Series 1997 - Bret Hart v Shawn Michaels (WWF Championship)

Why - this match is possibly the most famous incident in professional wrestling history. The Montreal Screwjob changed the landscape of the industry and gave birth to the 'Mr. McMahon' character.

2) Vengeance 2001 - Chris Jericho v Stone Cold / Chris Jericho v The Rock (WCW and WWF Championships creating the Undisputed Championship)

Why - this match is historic simply for the unification of the 2 biggest championships in professional wrestling at the time. Chris Jericho was the perfect candidate to be given the reigns as it showed that the WWF were changing it's opinion on 'smaller workers' (this led to championship runs for Benoit and Guerrero for example) and did not require putting it on either of their marquee names in Rock and Stone Cold to draw ratings. Chris Jericho has since become, arguably, the best in the business today.

3) Raw 1999 - Mankind v The Rock (WWF Championship)

Why - this moment is widely regarded as the point where the ratings war started to turn back to the WWF's favour. It was a time when Raw was pre-taped and Nitro was live. WCW commented this title change on air with the comment 'that'll put bums in seats' sarcastically. This actually indeed came true and fans to switch over to watch the rival product which was a breath of fresh air compared to the random booking and storylines coming out of WCW.

Those are my three choices. Personally I believe they are all title changes that changed the industry as we know it, which is why all deserve to be listed. Notable exclusions are -

Summerslam 1992 - Bret Hart v Davey Boy Smith (IC Championship - set the standard for technical wrestling)
Wrestlemania X - Shawn Michaels v Razor Ramon (IC Championship - set the standard for ladder matches)
King of the Ring 1996 - Jake 'the Snake' Roberts v Stone Cold Steve Austin (Birth of the Austin Era - not a title change but back then King of the Ring was regarded as highly)

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

3. Hulk Hogan vs. Undertaker (Survivor Series 1991)- The Undertaker was a dark force just a year into the WWE and he was already given the chance to win the title. During his entrance, you can see that the kids were scared of him and were pulling heavily for Hogan. Undertaker and Bearer claimed that Hulkamania would die and for that night it actually did.

2. Bruno Sammartino vs. Ivan Koloff (January 18, 1971, Madison Square Garden)- This was the end of a eight year long reign by Sammartino. He battled greats like Killer Kowalski, Giant Baba, The Iron Sheik, George Steele, etc. When Koloff pinned him, the crowd went silent and Bruno thought his hearing was damaged. The referee didn't even hand the belt to Koloff and Sammartino stayed inside the ring to keep the attention on him. The crowd was crying and I never seen a title change in which the crowd showed that much passion until....

1. Hulk Hogan vs. Iron Sheik (January 1984)- What else needs to be said that hasn't already been said. This was the beginning of a whole new era. The beginning of Hulkamania which can still be seen in arenas a quarter of a century later.