TNA - The Iceberg for Professional Wrestlers

[Brian in Austin]

He didn't retire because he still has matches in him, as evidently shown in his match with Mick Foley on the iMPACT! before Bound for Glory. Vince McMahon wanted him to retire because Ric's retirement and his match with Shawn Michaels would draw, which it did. Wrestlemania 24 needed a big match, and that was it, Ric Flair said the words, "I will never retire!" And he meant it. Before he even signed with TNA he went to Shawn first, and got the go-ahead, stop being a pompous ass. You are not Ric Flair, you know fuck all.



Haha, what is it with you and that one incident? "Oh no, Ric Flair got his clothes ripped off him by Jay Lethal. I guess all his 21 World Championship reigns over 30 years are out the window," Ah, NO! Once again, it was a fucking spot. Something to get the rivalry going you dumbass. Go learn about wrestling before commenting on it. That in no way does anything, not even leaves a scratch on the metaphorically side-mirror that is the Mustang which represents Ric Flair's legacy and or career.



No, that does nothing to his legacy because it doesn't cross over into his wrestling career, you stupid idiot. All that means, is that Ric Flair's legacy as a good motorist, his legacy for longevity in marriages and his legacy of having a great bank account; which by the way, I'd love to your income because during a global recession it would really speak fucking wonders and we'd see how much of a great human being you are, are all tarnished.

But, it has nothing to do with his legacy. Has nothing to do with him being a 16/21 time World Heavyweight Champion. Has nothing to do with him being one of the greatest wrestlers to ever live. Nothing to do with The Four Horsemen, his matches with the Briscoes, Harley Race, Ricky Steamboat, Terry Funk or anyone for that matter.



Is this a golf forum? And anyway, that was a piss poor example. That's all great for them, but their private lives are secluded, in the wrestling industry dirt spreads fast. Tiger Woods was having affairs with various women for three years before he was found out, Kurt Angle gets a DUI and the IWC knows within hours. Different industries, different people.



Hulk Hogan also used to be the face of professional wrestling. But guess what? Since around 1995, he hasn't. His star diminished, and that's how wrestling evolves. Nowadays people like John Cena and Randy Orton are the faces of professional wrestling. Ric Flair has always, and will always have star-power, but he hasn't been the face of professional wrestling or one of them since about 1995. Because in WCW, people shit on him, and then several years later WWE reserected his career.



You not got sound on your TV? That still happens. Ric Flair's music hits and all you hear from the crowd is "Wooooo!!!" Ric Flair says it, and the fans say "Woooooo!!!" Ric Flair uses his Knife Edged Chop and the fans say, "Wooooo!!!" Get your volume fixed.



Well by all means, that's great for you. Stick in the 80's, it's where you obviously belong, because dude coming from this thread alone you seem to have a very delusional and odd view on Ric Flair. So, you know, watch re-runs of old NWA shows and rewatch Starrcade over-and-over, watch Flair for the Gold continously.

And while you're at that, I'll hear and watch the odd time, "The Nature Boy" Ric Flair in TNA, wooooo his ass off week-after-week, and help a company like TNA hopefully regain the positive reputation it once had back in 2007. Because Ric Flair, still seems to have a bit left in him, and I'll watch and enjoy

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

I think you're misunderstanding what I mean when I talk about legacy. In the case of Ric Flair, I'm speaking of his legacy as it's seen not only now as he continues to diminish his star, but after he's retired from the entertainment industry for good. I'll speak to the match with Foley, in which Foley had to carry much of the match because Flair wasn't able to do most of the spots without help. Not that Foley had much left in the tank either. It was a terrible match but one I'm sure Flair wanted on his resume just so he could say he did it. Not to mention the alleged heat between Flair and Foley off screen. (whose to say whether or not that was real or a work.)

But it goes beyond that. If Flair cared at all about his legacy he'd have done a better job of protecting it in the ring. Just because he can go, doesn't mean he should.

Now yes, he, and Hogan both still have name recognition and quite often things like that never go away for celebrities. But with that comes all the good AND bad about the name. Barry Bonds. Home run king? Or cheat? Tiger Woods? Best ever or unfaithful to his wife? Mike Tyson. Baddest man on the planet? Or nutjob? Lindsay Lohan. Young actress or coked out addict? So it's not always just about having that name recognition but what comes WITH that name. For Flair, I see him as someone who once epitomized greatness in the ring techically, and 'flair' if you'll forgive, out of the ring with his suits, the look, the mic work, and the way he could carry on a feud outside the ring merely with his words. Now he often babbles nearly incoherently at times kneedrops and elbow drops his coat, sweats like he's coming down off a 3 day bender and just looks bad.

Hogan hobbles his way out to the ring, now getting all tatooed up, talking trash about being in charge, being the man who made wrestling, (ummm forget Flair, Rhodes, Race, Gorgeous George, and dozens of others who paved the way for you?)

The fact is both of them could do a world of good for 'the boys' if they both took backstage roles as mentors as I'm sure both could really provide great insight into the business, both good and bad. But alas, TNA needs superstar names BADLY, and I mean BADLY, to keep their dingy afloat, given the gaping holes it has in it.

In the end, Flair is doing more to damage his legacy now than ever before and that, to me, is sad.

 

[Brian in Austin]

They don’t NEED Flair to get over. And Lethal couldn’t even capitalise on the rub Flair gave him. Once the impressions stopped, no one cared about Lethal. That in no way has anything to do with Flair. Flair done his job, he got the fans to care about Lethal and Lethal couldn’t sustain it without Flair. There’s guys on the roster that are easily talented enough (AJ, Anderson, Morgan, Pope, Wolfe, Beer Money etc) to make a real mark without Flair being involved. But ask anyone of those guys if they would like to wrestle Ric Flair, and I’d be very surprised if even one of them said no.

Again, I just don't understand why there was a need to have his clothes ripped off of him to give Lethal that push. Again, if Lethal had the pop and were able to get over, he wouldn't have needed that angle. Fact is, Flair could do much more good backstage teaching young men the ins and outs of the business and preparing them for the next step(s) in their careers.

 

[deforty]

i understand what you mean but i think you are missing one key element. If i go out and grab 1000 people off of the streets and ask them a few questions poll wise like.
Do you watch wrestling? we would get a lot of no's and yes's.
Do you know who AJ Styles is? they would probably be 90% no's.
Do you know who Hulk Hogan is? I would almost guarantee the majority of them would say yes.
Do you know who Ric Flair is? Same as Hulk Hogan

If you want to grow your business I understand the need for younger stars but on the other hand you need some name recognition like Hogan and Flair who people know.

Who just appeared on American Idol? None other than Hulk Hogan. I know that there is another thread about this, but with his Reality show and bitter divorce and i believe it was for charity and American Idol has like 900 million fans across the world, some of them might say what is Hogan doing these days since his divorce they could see he is on another wrestling show, or I like his shirt can i buy it anywhere they might find out its on ShopTNA.com, who knows, he still has some sort of draw, he is on the RAC commercials and does plenty other things. He is the only professional wrestler to be on the pages of Sports Illustrated, He has Name Value, as long as he is not wrestling or becoming champion all is fine.

TNA does have some problems their is nothing wrong with having them to help bring in fans off of their names alone.

If Nike decided it was time to hire a new CEO are they going to hire some young guy off of the street just to get new blood in their, not they are going to bring in someone who has been around for years and has been successful elsewhere and might be up their in years, that is not to say his success elsewhere will translate there, but you never know. It's the same thing in wrestling, they brought in Bischoff and Hogan because they had success elsewhere, it doesn't mean it will happen overnight or at all but it's worth a shot.

 

[jacdnwarrior]

When I initially heard that TNA had signed Hogan, Bischoff and Flair, I had a real sinking feeling. I hardly watch TNA, but I want the company to succeed and quite frankly I didn't see these signings as step in that direction. It troubles me more that they had a chance to give a shot to Paul Heyman and they lost that opportunity in favour of Hogan and Bischoff and even more so the number of good if not great younger talent they had to pass up just to keep these guys on the payroll. Tna made a number of choices that were good Fortune (although it had too many members) and some not so much, the choice to move to Monday nights was a failure. If they're making money, that's great but they have a huge problem if it's tied to big names whose best days are far behind them instead of the younger roster they have with them now. Flair and Hogan have soldified their places in wrestling history but like all greats, they need to know when to exit the ring and focus their efforts in other areas of the wrestling business. I'm not a fan of seeing Rick Flair wrestling matches till he dies in the ring. He has a right to, but TNA isn't going to see new heights with him or Hogan as active competitors. TNA must recognize that and use Flair and Hogan's other skills to help them with the company backstage and in front of the camera as needed.
If the signing of these three has led to more revenue for TNA, meaning: higher buyrates, merchandise sales, television ratings, please show me where because I'm not sure I've seen any proof they have.


As far as Hardy is concerned, he was a problem in WWE, and TNA decided to pick him up, so TNA knew what they were getting with him. If they want to work with him, they need to intervene and hold him accountable. He needs rehab and now. He's a great talent but until he gets his issues under control, he will be a liability to TNA and another sad additon to the wrestlers we lost list. Angle is imo, one of, if not the greatest performer in the ring today. He is a welcome addition to any promotion and if he were released tomorrow, he would be the hottest commodity that any promotion would want. That being said, his DUIs must be taken seriously. I have no problem with TNA taking these guys, ( I know it would have been stupid if they passed up on them) they can perform, but their personal demons will lead to a lot of heartache if they aren't stopped from destroying themselves.

 

[He's Phenomenal]

When I initially heard that TNA had signed Hogan, Bischoff and Flair, I had a real sinking feeling. I hardly watch TNA, but I want the company to succeed and quite frankly I didn't see these signings as step in that direction. It troubles me more that they had a chance to give a shot to Paul Heyman and they lost that opportunity in favour of Hogan and Bischoff and even more so the number of good if not great younger talent they had to pass up just to keep these guys on the payroll.

I would suggest 99% of wrestling companies trying to get to that next level would hire Hulk Hogan and Ric Flair over Paul Heyman. Hogan and Flair are the two biggest icons the wrestling business has ever produced. Heyman is known to a certain era of wrestling fans. I loved ECW as much as anyone (RVD's the greatest of all time for me), but I really don't buy into the idea that Paul Heyman can do more for a wrestling company than Hulk Hogan and Ric Flair. If you don't enjoy TNA, then hindsight is a wonderful thing. But if TNA were given an original choice of Hogan/Flair/Bischoff or Heyman? They made the choice most would make IMO.

 

[Brian in Austin]

What's this? Shane Douglas has how said that Ric Flair has tarnished his legacy? Say it ain't so?!!!

Yeah, I know I know. Douglas doesn't know what he's talking about. He's only got what 20+ years of experience in the business. What would he know?


LoL


I stand fully vindicated in my opinion.

 

[AntiChristDeicide]

What's this? Shane Douglas has how said that Ric Flair has tarnished his legacy? Say it ain't so?!!!

Yeah, I know I know. Douglas doesn't know what he's talking about. He's only got what 20+ years of experience in the business. What would he know?


LoL


I stand fully vindicated in my opinion.

Yes Shane Douglas knows what he is saying, but you have to keep in mind two things. 1 Shane Douglas and Flair aren't the best of friends in the wrestling buisness, remember his Triple-Threat faction was meant to be an insult to Flair's 4 horsemen faction. 2 where is Shane Douglas these days? Hum wait for it..... wait for it...... yeah thats right he is nowhere, while Flair is in TNA at the moment. So would it be possible that Douglas is jealous of Flair? I say yes.

 

[Brian in Austin]

Yes Shane Douglas knows what he is saying, but you have to keep in mind two things. 1 Shane Douglas and Flair aren't the best of friends in the wrestling buisness, remember his Triple-Threat faction was meant to be an insult to Flair's 4 horsemen faction. 2 where is Shane Douglas these days? Hum wait for it..... wait for it...... yeah thats right he is nowhere, while Flair is in TNA at the moment. So would it be possible that Douglas is jealous of Flair? I say yes.

Unless you've heard it straight from Douglas, it's just your opinion. The fact is, each time Flair steps in the ring and blades himself, gets his clothes ripped off, or otherwise embarrasses himself, he's damaging his legacy.

 

[AntiChristDeicide]

Unless you've heard it straight from Douglas, it's just your opinion. The fact is, each time Flair steps in the ring and blades himself, gets his clothes ripped off, or otherwise embarrasses himself, he's damaging his legacy.

Yeah its only my opinion, and i said he knows his stuff so i didn't really discredit what he said. All i said is that considering that they are not the best of friends in the wrestling world, he said those things maybe because he is jealous that Flair is still somewhat relevant in the wrestling world while he has faded to obscurity. By the way, i loved his «Franchise» character and his Triple-Threat faction so don't accuse me of being bias towards Flair.

 

[Brian in Austin]

Yeah its only my opinion, and i said he knows his stuff so i didn't really discredit what he said. All i said is that considering that they are not the best of friends in the wrestling world, he said those things maybe because he is jealous that Flair is still somewhat relevant in the wrestling world while he has faded to obscurity. By the way, i loved his «Franchise» character and his Triple-Threat faction so don't accuse me of being bias towards Flair.

No worries here. I like Flair. Loved his character from years ago. I just think it's run its course and he's embarrassing himself now more than he's advancing his legacy. As for Douglas, who knows what prompted his comments other than to speculate that he's distressed at what he's seeing as much as I am.

 

[jacdnwarrior]

I would suggest 99% of wrestling companies trying to get to that next level would hire Hulk Hogan and Ric Flair over Paul Heyman. Hogan and Flair are the two biggest icons the wrestling business has ever produced. Heyman is known to a certain era of wrestling fans. I loved ECW as much as anyone (RVD's the greatest of all time for me), but I really don't buy into the idea that Paul Heyman can do more for a wrestling company than Hulk Hogan and Ric Flair. If you don't enjoy TNA, then hindsight is a wonderful thing. But if TNA were given an original choice of Hogan/Flair/Bischoff or Heyman? They made the choice most would make IMO.

Depends on what you're looking for. How have these guys helped the company thus far ? Are the buyrates higher, the tv ratings, merchandise sales ? I mean Flair and Hogan while great in their heyday are past their prime as in-ring performers, and I have no idea what behind the scenes expertise they are bringing into TNA. Heyman doesn't need the spotlight, you give him the control over booking and storylines, and you're set. If Hogan, Flair and Bischoff have improved TNA's fortunes in anyway, please show me.

 

[He's Phenomenal]

Depends on what you're looking for. How have these guys helped the company thus far ? Are the buyrates higher, the tv ratings, merchandise sales ? I mean Flair and Hogan while great in their heyday are past their prime as in-ring performers, and I have no idea what behind the scenes expertise they are bringing into TNA. Heyman doesn't need the spotlight, you give him the control over booking and storylines, and you're set. If Hogan, Flair and Bischoff have improved TNA's fortunes in anyway, please show me.

I wouldn’t know where to find those figures (buyrates, ratings, sales, attendances etc) to be honest. So all I can do is make assumptions and I would assume they are all higher than previous to January 2010. If you can prove they’ve all (or any) dropped, I’d be very surprised. I can only really go on what I see on the TV and how well TNA does over here. I can’t remember the ratings rise when Hogan signed but it was a ridiculously high rise. The product has improved dramatically IMO. There’s not so much focus on actual in ring wrestling anymore, but I genuinely want to see the next episode of iMPACT! Rather than just watching it because it’s on and you get some decent action.

Like I said, I can’t point to any facts, just give my opinion. But if there’s one thing no one can deny, it’s that Hogan, Bischoff and Flair have vastly improved the characters on the show and the wrestler’s personalities.

 

[Rayne]

I wouldn’t know where to find those figures (buyrates, ratings, sales, attendances etc) to be honest. So all I can do is make assumptions and I would assume they are all higher than previous to January 2010. If you can prove they’ve all (or any) dropped, I’d be very surprised. I can only really go on what I see on the TV and how well TNA does over here. I can’t remember the ratings rise when Hogan signed but it was a ridiculously high rise. The product has improved dramatically IMO. There’s not so much focus on actual in ring wrestling anymore, but I genuinely want to see the next episode of iMPACT! Rather than just watching it because it’s on and you get some decent action

Fortunately, all this information is in a sticky thread at the top of the General Wrestling forum.

http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=145691

Ratings are starting to inch up, but have only done that over the past couple of months. For almost all of 2010, they were averaging a 1.0, which is identical to their ratings from 2008-9. Recently they've been averaging around a 1.2, which is an improvement, but not exactly the kind of production validating rise you're assuming. You can, however, go off of more then you see on TV, because ratings information is posted publicly by the Nielsen Company.

The ratings rise when Hogan came aboard was a one-night affair, and that was a huge night for wrestling in general. (Many people have chosen to forget this, but Impact was trounced in the ratings that Monday night, as the WWE countered with the return of Bret Hart.) A month later TNA would attempt to switch permanently to Monday nights, and we all remember how that went.

But if there’s one thing no one can deny, it’s that Hogan, Bischoff and Flair have vastly improved the characters on the show and the wrestler’s personalities.

I can deny that quite easily. There are wrestlers that have more personality, but more personality doesn't always translate into an improved personality. Give me the 2008 version of AJ Styles over the current incarnation. Give me the old Abyss with James Mitchell, rather than Hogan's flunkie with a 2x4" velcro'd on his back. Fuck, give me Jay Lethal as Macho Madness, give me Dixie Carter as someone that no one has heard of. The characters have MORE personality now, but in many cases that doesn't translate for me into a BETTER personality.

 

[He's Phenomenal]

Ratings are starting to inch up, but have only done that over the past couple of months. For almost all of 2010, they were averaging a 1.0, which is identical to their ratings from 2008-9. Recently they've been averaging around a 1.2, which is an improvement, but not exactly the kind of production validating rise you're assuming. You can, however, go off of more then you see on TV, because ratings information is posted publicly by the Nielsen Company.

The ratings rise when Hogan came aboard was a one-night affair, and that was a huge night for wrestling in general. (Many people have chosen to forget this, but Impact was trounced in the ratings that Monday night, as the WWE countered with the return of Bret Hart.) A month later TNA would attempt to switch permanently to Monday nights, and we all remember how that went.

When I mentioned the rise in ratings when Hogan joined, I did say over here (meaning England). I remember reading some article on the massive rise in ratings, as I’m not someone who usually goes looking for ratings a TV show scores.

So in short the ratings have slightly increased, that’s something positive. It may not be a huge rise, but they are gaining viewers and not losing them. Are the figures for house show attendances and merchandise sales as easily available?

I can deny that quite easily. There are wrestlers that have more personality, but more personality doesn't always translate into an improved personality. Give me the 2008 version of AJ Styles over the current incarnation. Give me the old Abyss with James Mitchell, rather than Hogan's flunkie with a 2x4" velcro'd on his back. Fuck, give me Jay Lethal as Macho Madness, give me Dixie Carter as someone that no one has heard of. The characters have MORE personality now, but in many cases that doesn't translate for me into a BETTER personality.

I can see what you’re saying, but to some folk out there those characters may have improved. It’s all opinion at the end of the day. I would much rather have the AJ Styles from 2008, as he was the main reason I starting watching TNA regularly. He was the centre of attention and showed just how Phenomenal (pun intended) he really is. But now I watch iMPACT! to see a number of different guys and not just AJ Styles. Other guys have stepped up now and it makes for a better show IMO.

 

[jacdnwarrior]

Here's why I cringed when it was announced they were joining. Hogan is a larger than life personality as is Rick Flair. They are people who want the spotlight, want a lot of money and really no one wants to see them dominate the show as they would to do. My concern was they would take that spotlight away from the TNA performers and the focus would be on those 3 and not necessarily the TNA roster. They did the Abyss, having the power of Hogan's HoF ring, then they went retro with their huge faction Immortal/ Fortune thing which was ok for a while then it got really tedious with Hogan and Bischoff segments happening regularly, Rick Flair in the ring and so on. I was especially disappointed that Nash left who had been there for quite some time, Kong and ODB are gone, which may be due to these three coming in (or not) so I think these 3 do bring things to the company, not all of it is good for the company, imo. Heyman doesn't need to be in front of the mike. He doesn't want the spotlight. I don't entirely agree with any person over forty being gone, but I do agree that the focus needs to be on their younger performers on the roster and bringing them to the next level.

 

[Brian in Austin]

Fortunately, all this information is in a sticky thread at the top of the General Wrestling forum.

http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=145691

Ratings are starting to inch up, but have only done that over the past couple of months. For almost all of 2010, they were averaging a 1.0, which is identical to their ratings from 2008-9. Recently they've been averaging around a 1.2, which is an improvement, but not exactly the kind of production validating rise you're assuming. You can, however, go off of more then you see on TV, because ratings information is posted publicly by the Nielsen Company.

The ratings rise when Hogan came aboard was a one-night affair, and that was a huge night for wrestling in general. (Many people have chosen to forget this, but Impact was trounced in the ratings that Monday night, as the WWE countered with the return of Bret Hart.) A month later TNA would attempt to switch permanently to Monday nights, and we all remember how that went.

I can deny that quite easily. There are wrestlers that have more personality, but more personality doesn't always translate into an improved personality. Give me the 2008 version of AJ Styles over the current incarnation. Give me the old Abyss with James Mitchell, rather than Hogan's flunkie with a 2x4" velcro'd on his back. Fuck, give me Jay Lethal as Macho Madness, give me Dixie Carter as someone that no one has heard of. The characters have MORE personality now, but in many cases that doesn't translate for me into a BETTER personality.

Great comments from you on your evaluation of characters. No question that Jay Lethal had a very good thing working with The Macho Man gimmick and TNA could have used that to bring in the real Macho Man, Randy Savage, for some sort of payoff. Either in a short fued for a limited run for Lethal to a PPV, or even better, Savage comes in to mentor Lethal to the World Title, where he could have slowly turned heel, using the ring bell off the top rope, the tag ropes to choke out opponents, feet on the ropes and even kept So Cal Val as his "Elizabeth."

A.J. could have been a long term World Champion up until that time and he could have had a program with Lethal and Savage gaining the belt thru the screw job, and then it could have culminated in a cage match at some PPV for the world title.

Very true that D.C. should have remained an unknown quantity in all of this, pulling the strings thru anonymity. Getting her actively involved on tv has been a huge disaster. She's terrible on the mic and isn't suited to being an on-air personality at all. Getting her out was the right thing to do in that respect.

 

[itssoeasy123]

The iceberg. Nah, more like sinking ship.

Seriously, they have to improve or TNA's not going anywhere.

They need a complete overhaul in the company. Get Russo out of there, put someone in there who know's what he's doing (and no, not Heyman!) Get Hogan and Bischoff pay cut's and off my television, they make it hard to watch. Get a Wellness policy, release Jeff Hardy and put him in rehab.

There's so much stuff TNA should do, but what they have to do the most, is develop credible young talent. This is where WCW failed at. They had Mysterio, Jericho, Benoit, Malenko, Kidman, DDP, all these young talent, but they alway's got squashed by the NWO. People soon stop caring about the NWO becuase, after Goldberg, there was no-one else left to take them down. The undercard was incredibilty squashed and misused to the point where it was laughable to even think Billy Kidman can last 2 minutes in the ring with the "mighty" Hulk Hogan.

TNA have are fantastic roster, but they don't utilize it. Instead they use the non-draw Matt Hardy, and the non-talent Matt Morgan. You know why, their former WWE talent. I wonder what will happen if say, Carlito, or Kaval go to TNA. They'll probably hotshotted right ot the main event picture. Of course, neither of them were draw's in WWE, but somehow in Dixie's mind they'll be a draw in a much smaller obscure company.

TNA is doing exactly what WCW did when Bischoff took over in 1996. Their using the established talent and ot establishing new talent. Of course, it worked in 1996, but not it's 2 thousand fuckin' 11! Nobody gives a damn about RVD, Tommy Dreamer, Hulk Hogan, Eric Bishoff, Devon, Bubba, Matt Hardy, Jeff Hardy, Jeff Jarret, and Kurt Angle! You want evidence, look at the rating's. It's been the same 1.1-1.3 for the last 10 month's.

TNA is like the Attitude Era booked by a 12 year old with down syndrome and a short attention span. Fued's come and go, guy's turn heel and face every month, Ken Anderson is Stone Cold 2.0, Sting is World Champion, the "bad-ass" heel's, the non-existent faces. People are getting stabbed, kidnapped, threatened by knives. It's one big mess.

Hogan's only on television to fuel his universally sized ego and get money for TV time. Bischoff, well he's a executive producer and only two thing's can happen. One, he turn's TNA around. Or two, he continue's to bury the undercard and midcard until there's nobody left besides the established WWE talent.

They need a top face, a Wellness policy, established young talent.

I'm being as optimistic as I can, but as TNA is going now, I think TNA has only 2 year's left, or less.