I guess we will never agree on this one. I can't see any way of solving this. Wait, you know what, I have one more argument to make. I have proof that the WWWF was a World Title when Sammartino had it during his first run. You. You said...
" PWI actually even stripped them of their 'World title' status for years at one point. "
In order for PWI to strip them of their world title status that meant that it was a World Title. Thank you.
You should have stopped at we will never agree on this one.
Because you seem to be jumping all over to make your point... or we're arguing two separate things.
You claimed that the WWWF wasn't a regional promotion because it's title was defended all over the world. I don't disagree that the title would get defended outside the WWWF. The thing is, that was pretty common back in the day for many promotions.
However, the WWWF itself, which is the point I've been trying to make to you, did not promote outside of it's traditional area. The same is true for all promotions back then. The NWA got around this by being a governing body for multiple territorial promotions, hence the traveling champion that would defend all over the 'world' (NWA territory to NWA territory).
So the WWWF was a 'regional' promotion. They all were.
No, I have a lot of respect for Race. I usually vote for Race, Sammartino, Gagne, Andre and Thesz. And I usually lose interest in the tournament when they are all gone. In this case however I think Sammartino is the better choice.
Sorry, but I have a hard time buying that the guy who says "if you're honest you vote for Sammartino, and it isn't even close" actually has a lot of respect for Race.
Thinking Bruno is the better choice is one thing. Saying it shouldn't even be close, is a real funny way of showing respect.
No he wouldn't be. This is a multinational, multipromotional tournament. Every promoter/booker in a given area would not have control over matches in their area. They would be told the result going in, be allowed to book the undercard and get a nice piece of the gate. Hell, Graham wouldn't even have been able to book the NWA Champ back in the day, it took a nine member committee to do that. Otherwise evry promoter would book his guy to win the title every time the champ came.
But Graham did book the NWA champ often back in the day. I think you mean choose who would be the champ, or book his own guy to win the title. THAT's something completely separate.
Getting into this 'who's the fantasy booker' scenario though is pointless. You say that the promoter would just be told the result and that result is based on your reasoning. Maybe. Or maybe they would be told the result and it would be based on my reasoning. Maybe this fantasy promoter has a piece of Florida and recognizes how much more money he could make with my suggestion in the long run (hey it's fantasy).
I've given my reasons why I would put Race over Bruno in this match. You disagree. Whatever.
No, the promoter would have to be some above all others who wouldn't show bias. In other words its a fictional promoter for a fictional legends tournament. Any other way would not make sense.
The problem here though, is that in that case, your fictional promoter is showing bias by basing his outcomes on what other promoters have done with guys in the past. You're having him punish Harley because in the real world, the NWA title was one that changed hands more frequently than the WWWF title, which was the case for a multitude of real world reasons that had nothing to do with the actual performer holding the title.
Well, the NWA wouldn't return my calls but I found these...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superbowl_of_Wrestling
http://www.prowrestlinghistory.com/supercards/usa/misc/florida/flmisc.html#unify0278
http://www.pwi-online.com/pages/wrestlingframe.html
First is Wikipedia so take it for what it I worth.
Second is a wrestling history and supercard site.
Last is PWI. At select pick 1980s and go to july 4th 1982 where you will see PWI refer to the Backland/Flair match as being for two world titles.
See, what I was looking for here was an old promotional piece from the NWA promoting a card with the WWWF champion on it... where they called it the WWWF World title. Since that was what you said... that the NWA referred to the WWWF title as a World's title. What some fans have written 30+ years later, or an independent wrestling publication printed doesn't really matter in this case.
I've looked and unfortunately I can't find it anymore. But I have seen one (from MSG I believe) that did promote the NWA World's champion, and only listed the WWWF Heavyweight champion.
Thesz had a 6 year reign, Dory Funk Jr had a 4 year and then some reign and several guys had three year plus.
Bruno just had a longer one. And yes, with his popularity he very likely would have held the NWA title for the same length. At least you have no proof he wouldn't.
And you have no proof that he would have, so that's just opinion.
We're talking 1965 though. Let's say that he gets Kiniski's entire reign for arguments sake. Part of the reason Kiniski lost the title in 69 was because he pissed off the board. Another part was because Funk Sr was a powerful member of the board, and his boy Dory was going to get the title sooner than later. Even if it doesn't happen in 69, it happens shortly after. No way Bruno was keeping that title 8 years when other members of the board wanted the champ for themselves, and if you do keep it on him those 8 years, then Dory's time has passed.
And are you now saying the AWA title was not a world title?
The AWA was a separate region like every other. They were outside of the NWA of course, and like any other promotion, would send their champion to other shows when they weren't running their own. The AWA was one of the most important regions, and their title one of the most important in the World. This was helped by the fact that they weren't in the NWA, and didn't have to book another title as being more important than their own major title. But the AWA was a territory just like the rest. They had their own area, which they kept to. You didn't see an AWA card in New York or St. Louis. You might see the AWA title on a card in New York or St. Louis, but that's another story.
Not the point. History and the records books would show that Sammartino defeated Thesz and Held the WWWF World Title and the NWA World Title simultaneously.
I'll give you this because it seems important to you. Considering what would have likely happened next (Bruno dropping the WWWF title because he couldn't manage all the WWWF dates needed... or dropping the NWA title because he felt more loyalty to the WWWF), it would have been more of a footnote than anything, and likely would have affected the historic reign that he is remembered the most for in a negative way.
At the time it wouldn't have been. I have read that the NWA just wanted some of Sammartinos popularity. I have never heard thet the WWWF was going to join back up at that time. Why would they. They initiated the break and were doing great business. It would still have been two separate companies. Unlike Flair and Von Erich who were both under the NWA. My point still stands.
Plus, do you remember why the WWWF split from the NWA? Thesz would not defend regularly in the Northeast. He would travel there.
Why would McMahon, who had just broken off from the NWA... let those guys have his champion without getting back into the fold?
Plus you're contradicting yourself with that last statement. Since under Bruno, the WWWF would have had an NWA champion that would work there, why wouldn't they rejoin? And the NWA board, who were a bunch of guys who loved money... wanted a piece of the rich New York territory all over again.
Bruno gets the belt, and the WWWF is back in the NWA. It's really that simple. If they aren't, Vince is getting a hooker to come in and take the belt off of Bruno one way or the other as quickly as possible, because it's more important to him to have a champion that is actually available for all of his shows, and not one that has to split commitments like Bruno would have had to.
No, Sammartino would have had to work his schedule which according to him would have given him every other Sunday off and add the NWA schedule. Hence the 35 days a month comment. Are you saying Race worked 35 days a month?
Are you saying that Bruno actually would have been working 35 days a month? That magically, being the NWA and WWWF champion would have added 4-5 days to the calendar?
You're not understanding the schedule of the NWA champion. They had their home territory which they would work (half the time because the guy that was the champ also owned part of that territory), and then they had the NWA champ schedule. Those guys were on the road nearly every day, whereas the rest of their peers had it significantly easier... working less shows and traveling shorter distances between them.
Bruno wouldn't have had it any different than any other NWA champion. He just didn't like the idea of having to be on the road that much... like so many other guys of his time. Bockwinkel was the same way. The NWA board wanted him as their champ at one point, but he enjoyed the more leisurely schedule and ability to call his own shots outside the AWA too much to say yes to them. Bruno also liked to work Japan regularly, go to the WWA for shots there, go up to Toronto when he wanted to... all things that being the WWWF champ afforded him the luxury to do, but being NWA champ would have restricted because he would have had the board dictating to him where and when he was supposed to work.
Looking at it booking wise 80s Hogan should win every year.
Kinda my point against using kayfabe exclusively... because otherwise, what's the point of ever doing this thing more than once?
And actually the winner here gets Cena/Muta winner. What is the bigger match. The face of the WWWF in the 60s/70s vs the face of the WWE 2000s or Cena/Race?
I'll admit, that would be the one reason I'd put Bruno over Race... because a Bruno/Cena match is better. Then again, a Race/Muta match is extremely appealing as well.
No, he showed that Race lost more often.
Again, not really understanding the differences between the titles, or why that was the case.
Put it this way. If you swap places for Race and Sammartino in history. Race is the WWWF guy, while Sammartino is as involved with the NWA as Race was... Bruno would have lost a hell of a lot more than he did. He also either would have worked heel a fair bit, or been more of a Dusty Rhodes... an attraction outside of his home territory that always came up short with the big title.
So Sammartino, sans title, comes into Races home area and takes him to a draw but Sammartino can't come into Florida and beat Race? In a match Sammartino dominates?
Do you think Bruno or Vince, in real life, would have bothered having him go to St. Louis to lose? How does that help their business at all?
Besides, I actually decided to look up Bruno's cage record, and a couple things stood out to me.
First off, the claim here that he only ever lost once isn't quite true. He lost to Graham, and Waldo Von Erich.
He also only ever fought one steel cage match outside of the WWWF, and that was in the NWF in Cleveland, OH. May 26, 1972. That was the one he lost to Waldo Von Erich
http://sportsandwrestling.mywowbb.com/forum2/25346.html
So do I think that outside the WWWF, in a steel cage, against someone like Harley Race, that Bruno could lose his signature match? Yes I do and history supports what I say... because Bruno never won a cage match outside the WWWF.
