TNA Region, Third Round: Cage Match: (4) Bruno Sammartino vs. (5) Harley Race

Discussion in 'TNA Region' started by klunderbunker, Apr 19, 2014.

?

Who Wins This Matchup?

  1. Bruno Sammartino

  2. Harley Race

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  1. klunderbunker

    klunderbunker Welcome to My (And Not Sly's) House

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    This is a third round match in the TNA Region. It is a last man standing match, held at the Amway Center in Orlando, Florida.

    [​IMG]

    Rules: The match is held inside a cage and can be won by escaping, pinfall or submission.

    [​IMG]

    #4. Bruno Sammartino

    Vs.

    [​IMG]

    #5. Harley Race



    Polls will be open for five days following a one day period for discussion. Voting will be based on who you feel is the greater of the two competitors. Post your reasons for why your pick should win below. Remember that this is non-spam and the most votes in the poll win. Any ties will be broken by the amount of posts of support for each candidate, with one vote per poster.

    Assume the wrestlers are at full strength after their first two matches.

    Also remember that this is a non-spam forum. If you post a response without giving a reason for your selection, it will be penalized for spam and deleted.
     
    #1
  2. X

    X RIP Sgt. Michael Paranzino / RIP CM

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    Harley baby. I mean if we're using resume and drawing power as the deciding factors this is Bruno all day, but taking into account things like in-ring ability and mic skills, Harley absolutely trounces Bruno. As great as Bruno was as a champion and spokesman, with a few exceptions, he was dreadful to watch in the ring. That's not to say he couldn't work, he certainly could and had some truly great matches with guys like Spiros Arion, Larry Zbysko, and others. But he was also prone to being insanely lazy, coasting by on a few kicks and punches and making late 90s Hogan look like Chris Benoit in terms of in-ring tenacity. Race on the other hand was one of the best workers in the world during his prime, and was one of the NWA's greatest champions when that title truly meant something, drawing great crowds everywhere he went and having memorable feuds with Ric Flair, Terry Funk, Jerry Brisco, Andre the Giant, and Giant Baba among others. He even slammed Andre nearly a decade before Hogan ever did, so Sammartino's size certainly wouldn't be a factor.

    This would truly be a classic bout, and is one that fans actually dreamed about seeing when both men were respective champions for their organizations. This would truly be a dream match, one we never got to see but would have drawn ridiculous money if it ever happened. Sammartino probably would have won, but regardless, Race was and is the superior wrestler and gets my vote.
     
    #2
  3. Big Sexy

    Big Sexy Deadly Rap Cannibal

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    I'm going with Harley Race. As X said, he was easily superior to Bruno when it came to both in ring ability and mic work. The biggest thing Bruno has going for him is his near 8 year WWWF title reign but people need to remember that the WWWF was still just a regional promotion at the time. The only world title that was on the National stage and actually defended consistently all over the world was the NWA title. Harley held that belt for 967 straight days and for 1575 out of 1596 days over the course of over 4 years. Considering the National talent pool going after the NWA title, an argument can be made that his time as champion was more impressive then Bruno's. If the WWWF hadn't been the break out company to succeed in going national under Vinny Mac in the 80's then Bruno's reign would not have the same luster.
     
    #3
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  4. klunderbunker

    klunderbunker Welcome to My (And Not Sly's) House

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    I'm going to quote Paul Heyman here.

    1.

    In the entirety of his career, that is the number of steel cage matches Bruno Sammartino lost. 1. This is Bruno Sammartino's signature match and for the majority of his career he simply did not lose. It's very similar to Undertaker's Wrestlemania Streak: yeah he lost at the end, but in his prime he was literally unbeaten. While it wasn't the peak of his career, Race lost the most famous cage match he was ever in.

    The gimmick gives an excellent war to Bruno.
     
    #4
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  5. Con T.

    Con T. Yaz ain't enough, I need Fluttershy

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    I'll go and take it a step further. KB mentioned Bruno's excellence in steel cage matches.

    Anyone remember the kind of match Harley lost the NWA title to Ric Flair in? Cage.

    In fact, not for nothing, but Race is 3-7 in cage matches. Now a couple of those wins are Flair, but that's a lot more losses than wins.

    This one's Bruno's.
     
    #5
  6. It's...Baylariat!

    It's...Baylariat! Team Finnley Baylor

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    Dear goodness.

    I love Harley Race. His legit toughness and his legacy are well established and many legends like Flair and Rhodes speak of Race being the most legit tough man in pro wrestling history. Seven times NWA Worlds Champion, too.

    However Bruno's a legend, too. And held his respected belt longer than Race's seven title reigns combined. And as KB pointed out, Bruno doesn't lose cage matches. Race does. Race's most legendary cage match was against Ric Flair... a match he lost to Flair.

    Bruno would simply be booked to win here and who's to say Race wouldn't do the job? I would. Race wouldn't lay down for anyone working in the WWWF and would beat on Bruno until he couldn't anymore...

    If anyone can beat Bruno in a cage, it would be Race.

    But I'm still torn.
     
    #6
  7. X

    X RIP Sgt. Michael Paranzino / RIP CM

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    Silly me, I didn't even notice the gimmick stipulation. Admittedly Bruno was a master of the cage match, but that was just how the booking worked back then. Cage matches were big draws so Vince Sr. would regularly run them and of course the babyface would win basically 999 times out of 1000. Harley wasn't a slouch in a cage either though, holding victories over guys like Ricky Steamboat and Dusty Rhodes.

    I suppose the cage does actually favor Bruno. Mostly because the WWF was more prone to running cage matches than any other promotion out there. It doesn't rule out a Harley win though. Race was a master of escaping with his title intact and a victory under his belt over big time babyfaces, and as Big Sexy pointed out, in many ways he was the real world champion when Sammartino held the WWWF title. Race was flying all over the world to face the best competition there was to offer, wrestling (and cleanly defeating) larger than life legends like Giant Baba Andre the Giant while Bruno was defending his regional belt in MSG against the likes of Stan Stasiak and Pat Patterson.

    Truthfully, you could really go either way here really depending on your personal loyalities. If you're a through and through WWF guy, Bruno's incredible reign is going to mean more to you than Race. If you were a WCW guy, Race was like Sammartino with a far better workrate, a legend of lore for a generation of Southern fans.

    I'm still going with Race. I know we like to get all frazzled with our arguments throwing in drawing power, resume, W/L record, workrate, charisma, and any other thing we can think of to put over our favorites but I'm of the philosophy that you should vote for who you personally think to be the superior wrestler, under whatever definition you give to that word. And in that respect, I'll take Race over Bruno every single time.
     
    #7
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  8. Awesome_Miz

    Awesome_Miz Proud LSN mentee

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    This is possibly the hardest match to call not only cause of the guys in the match, but cause of the stipulation in hand. Yes, as KB pointed out the cage match is a specialty of Bruno. However, as the rules state: This is an anything goes match and the first man to not be able to answer a ten count loses. So, if we take those rules into hand as well, whom do they favor the most? Harley Race obviously. We all know that Race is not a tough ass bitch, but as well as hard hitting motherfucker. Even then my vote will go to Bruno for the fact that this is like Mania as to UT. Doesn't lose in it. But, I can as well see a reason for Harley to win.
     
    #8
  9. Big Sexy

    Big Sexy Deadly Rap Cannibal

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    Bruno's cage match record, while impressive, is another thing that gets overrated by his competition. As far as I can find his most impressive cage match victories are over guys like Stan Hansen and Ivan Koloff. Neither guy is on Harley's level. He also did lose in a cage to Billy Graham so he wasn't unbeatable. The loss came later in his career but so did Harley's loss to Flair in a cage.
     
    #9
  10. Bernkastel

    Bernkastel Reaper of Miracles
    E-Fed Mod

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    bad draw for Harley. He's certainly a top 15 wrestler but Bruno is a top 10 wrestler; maybe even a top 5 wrestler. Bruno certainly has the advantage in drawing power. Accomplishments are about the same, save for the fact that Sammartino had longer reigns. It would be a tough match to call if it weren't for the stip. As others have pointed out Bruno rarely lost cage matches. Race often lost cage matches.

    I have every reason to vote Bruno. None to vote Race. Bruno combined with the match stip was just a bad draw for him this year.
     
    #10
  11. MrMojoRisin

    MrMojoRisin Championship Contender

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    Bruno was the king in the cage, rarely ever losing. In fact, he rarely ever lost period.

    Harley was more prone to doing the job, but has as impressive a resume as Bruno over the course of his career and is easily the more respected of the two.

    To me, the fact that this is in a cage doesn't matter as much as the location. In WWWF territory, you couldn't beat Bruno. It was as simple as that. However... when he ventured out of the North East, he did become more beatable.

    Harley however, as the traveling NWA champion, was dominant wherever he wrestled. He was of course at his best in Missouri, but with Florida being a major NWA territory, Race had plenty of success fighting there as well.

    Since this match is taking place in Florida, it becomes unfamiliar territory for Bruno, and a place where Harley holds the clear advantage.

    They fought in singles once as far as I can tell, and it was a draw. Not surprising considering it was an NWA versus WWWF champion match. Bruno was dominant in a cage, but Harley was dominant period. It's not the clear cut advantage for Bruno being portrayed here.

    Normally, these guys go to a draw. But since there has to be a winner here, location makes all the difference in the world. Bruno isn't going to be coming back to Florida since he works almost exclusively up north. Harley will be back in Florida regularly and needs to draw there. As a result, Bruno does the honors and Harley goes over.

    Harley Race for the win.
     
    #11
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  12. ServantofTwilight

    ServantofTwilight Pre-Show Stalwart

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    Ok. First off, the WWWF was not a 'regional' promotion. When Capitol Wrestling split from the NWA it took with it the NWA's large territory. McMahon Sr wanted his new company too garner the same kind of respected that at the time was afforded to the AWA and NWA so once he established Sammartino as champ he sent him out to defend the title and represent the company all over the country and world.

    Sammartino would defend in the northeast from Maryland up to New England. He then would wrestle in Eastern Canada for Frank Tunney. He wrestled in the Midwest for Bruiser's WWA and in Gagne's AWA. He wrestled in Mexico, up into western Canada, over to Australia, then onto Japan and finally back home to start the process again. It is true he did not hit as many smaller territories as Race, but to call the WWWF WORLD Championship a regional title is just ignorant.

    Second, ever one keeps mentioning Sammartinos first run but fail to remember he had a second run that last 3 1/2 years. His second run almost matches all 8 of Race's runs.

    Third, Sammartino did brawl a lot but he was also a good holds wrestler. He held the title for 11 years. you cannot say with a straight face that for that time he phoned it in and wrestled lazy matches. He often wrestled 60 minute matches and had a 73 minute curfew draw against Pedro Moralas. He sold out Madison Square Garden more then any man ever. He was so over and in demand that in 1965 he was picked to go over Thesz to win the NWA Title. That means the NWA wanted him bad enough to let another promotions champ go over their own.

    Sammartino is in every wrestling Hall of Fames, International Sports Hall of Fame, Italian/American Sports Hall of Fame and is on the MSG Walk of Fame. ESPN even referred to him as the Babe Ruth of wrestling.

    http://espn.go.com/blog/playbook/fandom/post/_/id/17789/wwe-to-induct-bruno-sammartino-into-hof

    Lastly, Sammartino, as stated has lost 1 cage match in his career. He has beat the likes of The Original Sheik, George Steele, Ivan Kololf, Stan Hansan, Spirios Arion, Peter Maivia, Larry Zbyszko, Bob Orton, Brutus Beefcake, Adrian Adonis and Roddy Piper.

    The latter of them coming when he made his comeback in 85-86 while in his 50s. He beat Piper in a cage in Boston in 1986. That was in the twilight of his career and at the height of Piper's heel career. Sammartino has a clean win over heel 80's piper, something face Hulk Hogan never could achieve.

    Lets talk about his one loss. he lost to Billy Graham in Philadelphia. In the match Sammartino dominated and bloodied Graham. He kicked Graham so hard that Graham flew threw the ropes into the door and fell all the way to the floor. That was Sammartino's loss. Know how he won all but one cage match? He beat his opponent so badly they could not get up, slowly walked to the door, played to the crowd, turned and flipped his opponent off and then left calmly through the door. And while he may have never wrestled in Florida, are you really going to say that location trumps total domination of a match type? That's silly.

    Sammartino wins, and if you are honest it is really not even close.
     
    #12
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  13. Tastycles

    Tastycles Turn Bayley heel

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    I'm going to be honest and say this, I don't care about either of these wrestlers enough to really get into this match. The fact of the matter is both of them were big names at a similar time, and the reality is, they would have (and probably did) wrestled to a draw. Bruno was bigger in his time, but he's probably been less of a lasting influence. When the game changed McMahon jr. worked to have both of these guys in a bit part role, and personally, I think the modern crowd were more into Bruno. So for no other reason than that, that's who I'm going for. It wouldn't be ridiculous to have either in the top 16 wrestlers of all time.
     
    #13
  14. ServantofTwilight

    ServantofTwilight Pre-Show Stalwart

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    No this is a cage match where you win by pinfall, submission or escape.

    No, thi match took place in Missouri in the late 70s. Race was NWA champ but Sammartino was not WWWF champ. It went to a 60 minute draw. So Sammartino came into Race's backyard and wrestled him to a draw over the NWA title.
     
    #14
  15. MrMojoRisin

    MrMojoRisin Championship Contender

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    The WWWF absolutely was a regional promotion... just like every other territory in the territory days. Why do you think it was such a big deal when Vince JR went National in the 80's, and why do you think Junior waited until after his father had died to do it? Because Vince Sr was a traditionalist and honored the territorial lines.

    Also, the WWWF actually returned to the NWA in the 70's in case you weren't aware, and judging by your comment on taking the NWA's 'large territory', I don't believe you are. The NWA was a collection of multiple territories, each of which had their own defined area where they could promote exclusively. The WWWF had the large and lucrative North East. That's it.

    Yes you are right that Senior would send his champ out to other promoters shows as an attraction... just like he would bring in others champs as his own attractions. Part of the benefit of being in the NWA. I checked though, and I only ever saw one Bruno match in Florida. A 1975 battle with Professor Toru Tanaka. I wouldn't doubt there were more... but obviously not a lot more. Bruno was most likely to be working on the WEST coast or Japan when he wasn't doing WWWF dates. Florida simply wasn't a place he went to.

    But he rarely ever went to Florida... and in a match where there has to be a winner, and his opponent is someone that will come back on a regular basis, and is important to the territory... it only makes sense to book Bruno to lose.

    And yes, while it was one of the most important titles because the WWWF was one of the richest territories... the simple truth is that it was really just a regional title. PWI actually even stripped them of their 'World title' status for years at one point.

    I wouldn't really compare the two. If Bruno had to do the type of travel that Race did as NWA champ, he'd have had a lot of shorter reigns as well.

    Third, Sammartino did brawl a lot but he was also a good holds wrestler. He held the title for 11 years. you cannot say with a straight face that for that time he phoned it in and wrestled lazy matches. He often wrestled 60 minute matches and had a 73 minute curfew draw against Pedro Moralas. He sold out Madison Square Garden more then any man ever. He was so over and in demand that in 1965 he was picked to go over Thesz to win the NWA Title. That means the NWA wanted him bad enough to let another promotions champ go over their own. [/quote]

    Yes they did and rightfully so. Bruno was a huge star and the NWA recognized that. Funny thing about you bringing up 1965 and the NWA title... is a couple of things:

    A) The agreement wasn't that Bruno would be a permanent champion. He would flip the title back to Thesz at a later date. It was more a case of Bruno being Kerry Von Erich to Thesz's Ric Flair
    B) The idea was born as much from the fact that the NWA wanted a piece of New York again. They wanted the WWWF back in the fold, which they eventually got anyways
    C) The reason Bruno changed his mind on it was that he saw the type of schedule he'd have to work as NWA champ... the same schedule that Race did for most of the 70's, and said no. He knew he wouldn't be able to handle that type of schedule


    Yeah I do say match location matters most, because the match type is meaningless. If you're looking at this from a kayfabe, marks perspective, then sure a cage match against Bruno is a hard win, but that's not how I'm looking at it.

    As I've already said, Bruno wasn't going to be back in Florida later on to capitalize on this win. Race however will be. Normally if I have these two, I book them to a draw (which is exactly what happened when they did meet up). But I can't do that here, so I have to think about what's best for my territory going forward.

    Do I let Bruno go over? Which I can't capitalize on since he's a one and done deal? Or do I let Race get the big win, which I can use to draw a full house when Race does come back a short while later?

    The fact that it's in a cage does mean I can make a bigger deal of Bruno losing, and build Race stronger for the future because Race beats Bruno in his signature match. It's a golden opportunity for a booker and one I take in a second.

    Race wins, and if you look at everything from a promoters perspective (the guy actually deciding the wins and losses), and not a kayfabe marks perspective... it isn't even close.
     
    #15
  16. Little Jerry Lawler

    Little Jerry Lawler Sigmund Freud On Ritalin And Roids

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    Who gives a shit about Bruno and capitalizing his win? Numerous great wrestlers went to other territories and countries to compete against their top guys and win and don't come back to capitalize. It shouldn't matter to Race because he is always going to be there. I assume Race is going to be a heel in this matchup and the one thing about the greatest heels is that they can take an ass-kicking every week and never lose an ounce of credibility. That's what made Flair so great. Race will do the job and then go next week and antagonize somebody else.
     
    #16
  17. Big Sexy

    Big Sexy Deadly Rap Cannibal

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    Bruno may have been sent elsewhere for the occasional match but the WWWF ran all of their shows in the Northeast and Bruno was clearly never going to lose his title outside of the Northeast to someone not associated with the WWWF. The NWA title could change hands to almost anyone at any time because nearly all territories in US were affiliated with the NWA. There were also a number of promotions internationally affiliated with the NWA including Calgary, Mexico City, Seoul, Tokyo, Toronto, Vancouver, San Juan, Sydney, etc. Even the WWWF rejoined the NWA from 1971-1983, clearly making the WWWF title inferior to the NWA title during those years.

    Here is a list of places where Bruno won or lost the WWWF "world" title: New York, Maryland

    Here is a list of places where Harley Race won or lost the NWA "world" title: Missouri, Toronto, Florida, Japan, Texas, and Georgia
     
    #17
  18. Little Jerry Lawler

    Little Jerry Lawler Sigmund Freud On Ritalin And Roids

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    It doesn't matter about the territory going forward. It doesn't matter about drawing a house the next time. They are not going to face each other again. This is not "Book This". This is one-and done. Bruno wins and advances to the next round against the next opponent.
     
    #18
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  19. It's...Baylariat!

    It's...Baylariat! Team Finnley Baylor

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    Race didn't do 'jobs' in his prime. He was the traveling NWA World's Heavyweight Champion. He may have had a ton of time limit draws, but to say he'd do the job to someone that the NWA would see as inferior is asinine. Kayfabe, if there has to be a winner, it goes to Race. And in a brutal match such as a cage, Bruno may not have lost a lot of those matches, but he didn't beat anyone of note aside from a very young Stan Hansen. Race has won MANY big time cage matches against folks like Lawler in Memphis, Funk in Amarillo, Rhodes in Florida, the Fuller's in Tennessee, etc. Race is the inspiration for the World's Most Interesting Man.

    Great argument for your supporter. "Nothing matters, Bruno wins, derp."

    Race is tougher, better in the ring, and has a better overall legacy than Bruno.

    That's why Race would beat Bruno.
     
    #19
  20. Bythedockofthebay

    Bythedockofthebay Getting Noticed By Management

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    Sorry I don't buy it, I don't know how you look at this but most of the time Bruno win this easy

    Which is exactly why Bruno would win this match. Bruno was a huge name, sold arena's out all the time, and on the rare times he went elsewhere, he still managed to draw huge. Another thing is that Bruno would be special here. He'd be a spectacle of sorts and spectacles hardly ever lose.

    This isn't a situation where you worry about that. It's possible you could see either of these guys again because it's a tourney. And often times the special attraction would win those matches.

    Maybe so but in deciding who the best wrestler ever is I can't see Race beating Bruno in a cage match.

    From a promoters perspective it makes sense to put over Bruno. The special attraction. Andre moved from territory to territory, how often did he lose? Hogan won tournaments in Japan when people knew he would be leaving. Special attractions win, most of the time. Especially in wrestling. If someone HAS to go over in this match it's Bruno. People in FL get to see him once, they will want to see the legend they've heard of and that means Bruno goes over. BOOKING 101
     
    #20
  21. MrMojoRisin

    MrMojoRisin Championship Contender

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    I've already explained how I'm looking at it.

    But Bruno beats Harley Race easy? In what world? In a kayfabe world where Harley Race was one of the greatest of his era? In a shoot world where Harley Race was considered the toughest of his era? In a political world where Harley Race was one of the most influential in the country?

    Put over Bruno if you want. I've got no problem with that. I don't agree with it, but that's your opinion. But saying that Bruno beats Harley Fucking Race easily? Damn kid. That's just ignorant.

    So was Harley. Easily one of the biggest names of his era and drew wherever he went.

    Like I said before... my reasoning is simply that regardless of any tournament, at the end of the day I'm still going to be booking Harley Race in Florida since he's the NWA champion, and I'm not going to be booking Bruno again because Bruno never comes to my territory.

    So with that simple reasoning, I want Harley Race to be as bad ass as possible so that the next time he's in town, I can draw a huge gate with my champion going up against the guy who beat Bruno for the NWA championship.

    Bear in mind that the entire nature of the traveling NWA champion is that he is a special attraction. I don't get him on all my shows. I get him maybe a couple times a month... and in some cases a couple times a year. I draw my biggest gates when he's in town because he is considered to be THE Worlds champion. And he's there to put over MY top guy so that I can continue to draw money when he leaves.

    In a 'someone has to win' scenario, I don't care about the guy that's not going to come back. I only care about the guy that will.

    Simple to see.

    Promoter - Bruno, you're losing tonight. Here's your payoff.
    Bruno - Ok, no problem boss.

    We've already gone over the 'special attraction' and how you're ignoring the fact that Race is as well.

    Andre would lose when he wanted to or felt it was the right thing to do. He'd protect himself in various ways (like with Ronnie Garvin), but one thing you're ignoring with that example was that Andre would come back. There was rarely a situation where it made sense to have Andre lose. Like I said though, he still would when the situation called for it.

    Hogan was a regular in Japan up until he won the WWF title and Vince wouldn't let him take new dates there. Again, completely different situations.

    The people want to see the legend Bruno? Yes they do and in any other circumstance, Bruno and Harley goes the distance (like in real life when they met). But in a case where someone HAS to win... the people are going to care more about getting to go back to the guy that actually beat that legend right in front of them, and take a sense of pride in the fact that one of the guys they're used to seeing was the one to beat him... and they'll be over the top excited to watch their own guy (since it's Florida lets say Dusty Rhodes) beat THAT guy.

    THAT's booking 101.


    I'll be honest here. I could care less about this tournament you guys are doing. The logic behind who wins and who loses seems to be all over the place match to match. I'm just trying to give you all a sense of reality with this thing, since it seems too many people commenting here don't really understand how things worked back then, and seem too starry eyed over Bruno's 11 years as champ, while not quite comprehending what being the NWA champ like Race was all about (let alone dominating the NWA title for as long as Race did).

    Put this match in New York, Boston or Philadelphia... and Bruno comes out on top. Put this match in Minneapolis (where it should have been to be completely neutral), and it's a complete toss up (probably go with Bruno because he's the baby in it). Put the match in an NWA hotbed like Florida though under the conditions it's in... and the NWA champ becomes the guy that goes over.
     
    #21
  22. ServantofTwilight

    ServantofTwilight Pre-Show Stalwart

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    Just so I get this straight. A champion who wrestled and represented his company and title regularly in eleven states(northeast), four promotions(WWWF, NWA, AWA and WWA) and in five different countries was regional.

    I am aware. McMahon Sr rejoined the NWA after Sammartino left and he couldn't draw with Moralas. Kinda shows exactly what a big deal Sammartino was.

    But this is not a situation where one of these guys would come back. It is a tourney to crown the best. And who is the promoter doing this tourney, anyway?

    Again, after Sammartino left and attendance declined. Howevr both the WWWF and the NWA continued to refer to the WWWF title as a World title.

    No, he wouldn't of.


    A) Except Sammartinos brother did not just die and Von Erich did not work for a rival promotion.

    B) Irrelevant. Fact is Sammartino was going over Thesz.

    C) No, but nice try. The reason Sammartino said no was because he would have had to wrestle the NWA and WWWF schedule. A schedule that Bruno said would have him wrestling '35 days a month'. It had nothing to do with a fear of an NWA schedule.

    Then you are looking at it wrong. Unless you are willing to admit that Big Daddy Crabtree would go over Stone Cold Steve Austin in London; Jumbo Tsuruta would go over Austin in Tokyo and Otto Wanz would go over Austin in Germany. Is that what you are saying?

    One of tourney, not a title match. And again, who is the promoter?

    Who is the promoter? Where is the next round of matches? Where are the finals? You are looking at one match and doing it like the NWA is promoting it. You need to either look at it in kayfabe or what is best for the tourney.

    First, Sammartino only had 2 wins and 2 loses. So what if all four were in the Northeast? It does not take away from everything else he did. Plus you just showed that Race is more prone to losing then Sammartino.

    Sammartino went to Missouri and wrestled Race, in his home state, in his home promotion, to a 1 hour draw. You really think Sammartino can't go to Florida and beat Race there? In a match he dominates?

    Sammartino wins, and if you are honest it is really not even close.
     
    #22
  23. Big Sexy

    Big Sexy Deadly Rap Cannibal

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    My whole point is that if the WWWF was actually a World title and not a regional one then it would have changed hands outside of the Northeast. The title never officially changed hands outside of that region until the infamous evil Hebner angle in 1988. Race lost the title more because he had far more competition.

    All that shows is neither man has ever beaten the other so there is no advantage either way. Plus Bruno didn't exactly face the best talent in the match that he "dominates." Race's cage victories are more impressive on the whole.
     
    #23
  24. ServantofTwilight

    ServantofTwilight Pre-Show Stalwart

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    MrMojoRisin has said that the location is the most important thing, more so then match type. That is a little hard to belief since the whole point of the gimmick round is match type. Anyway, he says Race would win because he wrestled in Florida and Sammartino didn't(at least not much). I showed that Sammartino went into race's home territory and did not lose to Race. I believe this shows it is more then conceivable that Sammartino would win a cage match in Florida over Race in a one of match.

    Sammartino's cage victory over Piper in 1986 trumps all. Clean win over heel 80s Piper. While Sammartino was in his 50s.
     
    #24
  25. HBsam31

    HBsam31 Totally Reeking of Awesomeness

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    I read the arguments and went with Bruno. His time as champion was just too long, and he was just to dominant in the cage for me to vote against him here. Bruno moves on.
     
    #25
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