TNA Region, Fourth Round, 60 Minute Iron Man Match: (1) John Cena vs. (4) Lou Thesz

[Cereal Killer]

Look, the logic just isn't there; it's inconsistent to say Lou Thesz is going to have issues with the complexities of wrestling a modern day match, while Bruno is going to just coast by. If the affects of a modern day wrestling match is enough to affect Lou Thesz, one of the greatest of all time, to the point that he won't win, then surely it has to affect Bruno, too.

I'll point out another difference in the match; the opponents. I think Bruno would find it easier to beat Bryan than Thesz would to beat Cena. Especially because of the match types and because, again, Bruno didn't really wrestle like Thesz. Look at the differences. Did Bruno hold too? Of course. Did he do a lot more and Thesz? I think so. Bear in mind he is also a lot bigger than Bryan, so if he were to wrestle using the holds and all, Bryan could find it really hard to escape.

[YOUTUBE]/watch?v=qEROugeKfOs[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]/watch?v=fNngXluEkRk[/YOUTUBE]

But sure, Bruno can swing a weapon, cool.

Yes, and hurt Bryan. Bruno had set many world records in weight lifting. Bryan is very small. I know Bruno is no Brock Lesnar but I believe he really can hurt Bryan and with his skill, win the match.

I'm under the impression that you're assuming the only reason I think Cena would beat Thesz is because Cena is more athletic and modern. Well, I can tell you it's also because based on what I've seen, I believe Cena has more skill than Thesz and is more likely to find a way to win. The same applies for Bruno.

 

[MrMojoRisin]

I had a feeling someone would point this out. Here's the difference in the two situations:

Thesz used to go on and on about "hooking" or whatever it was called, this is the kind of wrestling where you apply several holds and is what Thesz used to do for several minutes in a match.

No, that's not what hooking was.

Hooking was when someone would cinch in a hold for real. Most wrestlers knew how to hook to a certain degree. Virtually every champion had to be a good hooker to even be considered for the title. With such a great chance any given night of an opponent going into business for himself (or at the directive of his promoter), champions needed legit skills to ensure the work remained a work. Thesz was considered the best at this. Put it this way. If MMA existed back in Thesz's day, he would have been in that instead of wrestling. And he would have been the best in the world.

In modern terms for anyone still unsure... Brock Lesner would be considered to be a 'hooker'. A guy with legit fighting skills. John Cena would be a wrestler. Someone who could do the worked holds very well, but didn't have any real skills if it came down to a shoot.

Thesz liked to talk about hooking, because he was proud of his legit skills. He was the real deal.

 

[Bernkastel]

Like I said before, Bruno's match with Bryan isn't a single one vs one bout. It's a TLC and because of reasons explained, Bruno would win. The match with Cena and Thesz is completely different and the way Thesz and Sammartino wrestled weren't exactly the same.

Except Thesz wrestled Bruno several times. And won. I guess he wasn't wrestling the "modern" style then huh? What about Antonino Rocca, whose widely considered to be the innovator of the modern wrestling style. When they went at it, was that not "modern?"

Thesz wrestled into his 70's. He won his last title when he was in his 60's. Surely by then he was wrestling a "modern" style. Wrestlers by the 50's did dropkicks, powerslams, piledrivers, diving knee drops, crossbodys, and even came off the top rope for a variety of moves... are those not considered "modern" maneuvers?

And even before Rocca modern wrestling can be traced back to the slam bam western style Strangler and his contemporaries peddled in the 20's.

 

[Cereal Killer]

Except Thesz wrestled Bruno several times. And won. I guess he wasn't wrestling the "modern" style then huh? What about Antonino Rocca, whose widely considered to be the innovator of the modern wrestling style. When they went at it, was that not "modern?"

Thesz wrestled into his 70's. He won his last title when he was in his 60's. Surely by then he was wrestling a "modern" style. Wrestlers by the 50's did dropkicks, powerslams, piledrivers, diving knee drops, crossbodys, and even came off the top rope for a variety of moves... are those not considered "modern" maneuvers?

And even before Rocca modern wrestling can be traced back to the slam bam western style Strangler and his contemporaries peddled in the 20's.

I get that. I mean, Thesz created several moves used today including the suplex, the powerbomb, the Thesz press and heck, even Cena's STF. Sure, he used these moves, but, not that many were used. Watch that video above and tell me how many dropkicks, powerslams, piledrivers, diving knee drops, crossbodys, and top rope moves there were. Were there some elements of how they wrestle today? Yes. But there's still a significant difference in the way they wrestled.

 

[Bernkastel]

I get that. I mean, Thesz created several moves used today including the suplex, the powerbomb, the Thesz press and heck, even Cena's STF. Sure, he used these moves, but, not that many were used. Watch that video above and tell me how many dropkicks, powerslams, piledrivers, diving knee drops, crossbodys, and top rope moves there were. Were there some elements of how they wrestle today? Yes. But there's still a significant difference in the way they wrestled.

You're using ONE match, out of about 400 that Thesz would work every year. Try watching a variety of Thesz's matches before deciding whether he could or could not "cut it" with the modern style.

Hell, Thesz even had a sequence of signature moves that would appear in most of his matches. Seriously, the matches WERE NOT that different. Gotch vs Hack was different. Thesz vs Sammartino/Johnathon/Rocca were not.

The hilarious thing is that you'd probably say someone like Warrior or Hogan would be "modern" wrestlers working a "modern" style when they didn't do half the shit we see today either.

 

[Con T.]

But there's still a significant difference in the way they wrestled.

Listen, I get what you're doing here. You can keep coming back to this point, because frankly, there's such little video of Thesz out there (save for microfilm, likely found at libraries), that you can prey on the stupidity of those, and keep espousing that the wrestling was so totally different.

Except, it really wasn't. Except, Thesz was still wrestling into the 80s, and was still wrestling men like Jack Brisco and Dusty Rhodes. Except, just about every wrestling move you find is derivative of Sammartino, Gagne, and Rocca. All men Thesz legit beat. Except, Lou Thesz also trained Mashiro Chono, and I don't know about you, but I never saw too much old boring shit in my Chono matches.

So, I invite you to come with something better than that. Better than Cena is a modern day wrestler, because frankly, that's about the only argument you have. That, and the blessing to not be refuted by countless videos on YouTube. Or, you can continue to be refuted, by those that actually know what they're talking about.

 

[Cereal Killer]

Oh? So how about one of you refer me to a match of his where throughout the match he isn't just "hooking" about 90% of the time, because that's all I've seen.

 

[MrMojoRisin]

Oh? So how about one of you refer me to a match of his where throughout the match he isn't just "hooking" about 90% of the time, because that's all I've seen.

Can you please get this term correct? It's already been explained to you.

And seriously, this entire conveniently inconsistent notion of yours that modern = better? Completely wrong. It's just you not understanding the differences in professional wrestling from Thesz's era... and sports entertainment from Cena's era. In Thesz's time, it was meant to look real, and it was designed to look real by guys who had done it for real. That is slower. That is more methodical. And that's what people wanted to see, so that's what they got.

In Cena's era? People know it isn't real, so they want to be entertained. It's meant to be flashier. It's meant to be showier.

Is that better? It's all in the eyes of the beholder. Most guys that grew up on Cena prefer the sports entertainment model. Most guys that grew up on Thesz though... can't stand that and wish wrestling would go back more to what it used to be.

It's wrong to assume that Thesz couldn't work today's showier style, so that must mean he'd lose. The guy was the best of his era. He's still revered today, when 99% of wrestling fans couldn't name more than 2 of his opponents. He obviously had something that people connected with, and that something would still be there if he competed in this era instead. Like I said, he'd have been MMA instead in this era because he could have been (I believe he even said so himself before he passed). But if he had gone into wrestling in the sports entertainment era... he'd have been great. Because he could connect with the fans, which is the most important thing any wrestler can do.

He also continued working regularly into his mid-60's (which was until the early 80's). He adapted with the changing times just fine. Promoters wouldn't have kept putting an old man over their talent otherwise and newer fans would have just seen him as a relic and stopped connecting with him if he couldn't have.

His last match. At age 74 against Chono in 1991. Here it is. You'll probably consider this to be too 'slow', but it's actually rather compelling for what it is... a match involving a 74 year old man... who had a bad hip. The fact that he was even able to pull it off is a testament to how great the guy actually was.

[YOUTUBE]3bkxclbRYMI[/YOUTUBE]

Put Thesz in this era, and he's still one of the all time greats, because he could connect and did it over decades. Put Cena in Thesz's era though, and I touched on this in my last post... but he's not as good. Champions from that era needed legitimate skills. Cena doesn't have them (how long do you think John Cena would last in an MMA fight?) He'd likely be an attraction. A guy with a good spot on the card that could make you money. But he wouldn't be a World Champion... because no promoter would be able to trust that Cena could handle a challenger that tried hijacking the title.

Lou Thesz is the smart vote here. Especially with the match type... which is tailor made for him. No gimmicks, nothing he never would have seen in his time, just straight up wrestling for a man who did that better than anyone.

 

[Slyfox696]

**Slyfox Note - This thread is about Thesz and Cena, not Bryan and Sammartino. Take those arguments to the appropriate thread. Further issues may result in an Infraction.**

Now on to my post.

I'm too lazy (and have other stuff to do) to do a detailed breakdown, especially since most people are either not understanding my point or they are just responding with ridiculousness.

Most of those matches were also multiple falls. Like the Iron Man match. That match is uncommon in the modern era, but why is that a point in Cena's favor?

My point is that it ISN'T a point in Thesz's favor.

Which means we come down to the fact Thesz worked against guys who used headlocks and armbars and Cena works against guys who throw him into steel steps and bash him over the head with a chair.

There's no question Thesz is not ready for the power of Cena, nor is he ready for the high impact of today's modern wrestling.

Except for Thesz being the overall better pro wrestler. Which he was. So he should win.

Except he wasn't. John Cena is on TV multiple times every week, all across the world. He has competed in the biggest wrestling spectacle in the world multiple times. He has brought in more revenue for the WWE than Thesz could have ever dreamed of doing. He has consistently molded and adapted his style, not just depending upon who he's working with but also with the changing of the times. And John Cena's mic skills outclass anyone not named Austin or Rock.

In no way can you say Lou Thesz is a better pro wrestler. All you can say is that Thesz is a better amateur wrestler, but since amateur wrestling has about as much to do with pro wrestling as Cena's All-American career as a football center, you have nothing to go on.

John Cena wins this match. He's bigger, he's stronger, he's more prepared for modern day wrestling and his conditioning is every bit as good as anyone has ever been. There is ZERO legitimate argument for Thesz, unless you think wrist locks and wrist watches are going to win this match.

Is that how you want this to be done for henceforth? This is will be the sheer opening of a Pandora's box of illogical reasons because for every TNA region matchup, each and every wrestler behind 2000 will lose and lose a plenty.

This is the WZ Tournament, the same tournament where arguments were being made that a wrestler should lose a match because he's never learned to climb a ladder to paint his shed.

Logic is relative. But my point is valid. Saying Thesz wins because "he used to work 60 minutes" is irrelevant, because Thesz working 60 minutes isn't close to the physical effort of Cena working 25. The point of the TNA ring is to remind people this won't be a match where Thesz can just lay around for 60 minutes like he used to do, but rather would have to engage in the more modern pacing of wrestling, for which Thesz has shown no ability to do.

This is Cena all the way.

So, while Slyfox is trumpeting the case for John Cena over Lou Thesz, I'm sure he also voted Daniel Bryan over Bruno Sammartino. I'd be shocked if he didn't. Shocked, I say...

Nope, I voted for Bruno. But only an idiot would think Daniel Bryan, a guy who has essentially been little more than a career upper midcarder, is comparable to John Cena, the man who has been the face of the biggest wrestling organization in history for the last ten years.

Good try, but you failed the logic test.

What happened last time Cena fought a resident of Suplex City? He got blown out.

Wow, I smell the desperation...are you really comparing Lou Thesz and his fairly puny 220 pound frame to Brock Lesnar and his nearly 300 pound frame? I think that's all that needs to be said about how weak the Thesz argument is.

Cena wins. It's barely even worth a discussion at this point.

So of course Thesz worked a slower pace in his matches. He didn't have another choice. If he didn't, he would have burnt out in no time, and no one would have ever heard of the guy today.

So he can't work the pace John Cena works. So his "advantage" in 60 minute matches really doesn't exist, now does it?

Lou Thesz is the smart vote here. Especially with the match type... which is tailor made for him.

Except it's not, as I've already proven.

 

[Slyfox696]

[mod]**Slyfox Note**

In case it is missed in my post above, I'm saying again. This thread is not about discussing Daniel Bryan vs. Bruno Sammartino. We have a thread for that already. Use this thread to discuss John Cena vs. Lou Thesz only. Any future discussion about Bryan/Sammartino may result in an Infraction.

Thanks![/mod]

 

[MrMojoRisin]

**Slyfox Note - This thread is about Thesz and Cena, not Bryan and Sammartino. Take those arguments to the appropriate thread. Further issues may result in an Infraction.**

Now on to my post.

I'm too lazy (and have other stuff to do) to do a detailed breakdown, especially since most people are either not understanding my point or they are just responding with ridiculousness.
My point is that it ISN'T a point in Thesz's favor.

I can see you were too lazy. Not lazy enough though, that you couldn't still go and cherry pick a few out of context comments to pass off as your 'ridiculousness'.

I understand your point. You feel that Thesz was too slow and couldn't keep up with Cena. Understanding your point isn't an issue.

Agreeing with it? That is.

Because your misrepresenting the differences in the eras, and declaring that the one you understand better personally is superior.

In Thesz's time, sports entertainment wouldn't have worked. Fans wanted it to look real. A real wrestling contest... would look a lot like what Thesz did. If they saw what we see today, the police would have been involved before the end of the first show charging some heel with assault or attempted murder... then when the public found out it wasn't real? They would have shit all over that phoney crap.

Fans today wanted a bigger spectacle. They want showier. They want flashier. They want drama. That's sports entertainment, and that's what Cena does.

You're assuming that Thesz couldn't work in sports entertainment, but that's all that is... an assumption. The basis of your assumption is the little bit of his work you've been able to see. To make your assumption work, you're ignoring that work was just as much what fans of that day wanted to see as what John Cena does for fans today, and you're penalizing him because of it.

Besides, if you want to stick to the difference in eras argument... who's to say that Thesz doesn't impose his will on Cena and force him to work a slower, more methodical, more realistic match? Thesz had the legit skills. He could make any man do whatever the hell he wanted them to. Size and strength wouldn't mean a thing to someone trained like Thesz was.

And if you don't think that would be physically draining for Cena? I invite you to go out and try doing what Thesz did with someone and see how long you last. You might be shocked.

You like Cena. That's well known. Of course you're going to vote for him. But if you're going to campaign for him, in something you say is barely worth a discussion (even though it's one of the only discussions you've bothered participating in)... at least be honest during it. Thesz was so much more than just a guy who used a lot of headlocks.

 

[Cereal Killer]

So you're saying that Thesz can adjust to today's style. OK. Assuming he can, can we really say he's still more likely to win? A wrestler you're assuming can adjust to a style he hasn't really ever fought with vs a much more stronger, agile and athletic star who wrestles with this "modern" style several days a week. For the final time, Thesz's style required less effort I matches than what's required in today. Should Thesz adjust and try and do so for 60 minutes, he'd be exhausted after a while as he's never been at such a fast pace for 60 minutes.

 

[MrMojoRisin]

Yes I am saying that Thesz can adjust just fine to today's style... and I don't believe for a second that he'd struggle with keeping up like you seem to think.

I also say that if he chose, he could force Cena to adjust to HIS style, and that if that happens, Cena would have a hell of a lot harder time responding to it.

Thesz was far more skilled. Legit skilled. He could wear Cena down like he's never experienced before. He could impose his will on someone far less trained than he was... and Cena is far less trained.

Don't assume what Thesz did was easy. It wasn't. It was draining, even it may not appear so.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

The stipulation favors Thesz and any claims that he wouldn't be able to work the sports entertainment system are just silly. Thesz would occupy a spot similar to a Kurt Angle if he wrestled today - he innovated suplexes and the power bomb, what has he to fear from s.e.? Better still he invented the STF, is that recent enough?

Stip says Thesz, legacy edges Thesz, location and promotion favors no-one. Vote Lou.

 

[Cereal Killer]

Well let's see. How many times has Cena been held down by a hold, only to get back up, hit the famous 5 and win the match? Not to mention Cena is far stronger and his ground game is excellent. This is the face of the WWE we're talking about here who's almost always overcome the odds, defeating names such as The Rock, Brock Lesnar, Triple H, Shawn Michaels and Randy Orton.

Edit: And Kurt Angle.

 

[Big Nick Dudley]

The conditioning aspect shouldn't matter. Thesz could go for an hour or more and constantly proved that. Cena could as well, but if he did, no one would watch. Fans today can barely pay attention to a 15 minute match. Cena's motor is the best of any top guy I've seen in my lifetime. You can blast some things Cena does, but he never blows up.

Thesz is easily the tougher guy and I see him controlling the pace. Cena would definitely explode here and there and get a pinfall or two, but I see Thesz having a better gameplan and pinning Cena more than once or twice.

Neither guy has ever faced anyone like the guy they are facing here. I'm going Thesz because he would obviously never tap out to Cena and I don't see the AA working until late in the match, probably later than Cena would need.

Is that a great argument? Probably not the best, but it's a shit ton better than saying Cena would lose because of conditioning.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

Well let's see. How many times has Cena been held down by a hold, only to get back up, hit the famous 5 and win the match? Not to mention Cena is far stronger and his ground game is excellent. This is the face of the WWE we're talking about here who's almost always overcome the odds, defeating names such as The Rock,

1:1

Brock Lesnar,

4:2 to Brock

Triple H,

3:2 to Triple H

Shawn Michaels

3:3

and Randy Orton.

12:7

Edit: And Kurt Angle.

5:3 to Kurt


Your examples and John is only batting over .500 against the Viper in one on one televised bouts. Kurt was just my example of how Lou would present himself today, as a legit badass because that is who he was but if you're attempting to use this against him... it doesn't look too good for John.

 

[Bernkastel]

There's no question Thesz is not ready for the power of Cena, nor is he ready for the high impact of today's modern wrestling.

Thesz knew perfectly well how the industry had changed even since the 1970's and 1980's, when he was still active. He had his last match in the 1990's. He thought the Attitude Era was stupid, but so did lots of other people in the industry. But that doesn't mean he wouldn't have bee able to work during that time period. It's as ludicrous as saying that if John Cena were wrestling in the 50's and 60's he wouldn't have have been able to find any success.

Except he wasn't. John Cena is on TV multiple times every week, all across the world.

Where less people out of the total population watch and follow pro wrestling now than they did back in Thesz's era.

He has competed in the biggest wrestling spectacle in the world multiple times.

As a cog in the WWE machine. Thesz set gate records all over the world, continuously. He was the first guy to crack the $100,000 revenue gate in wrestling.

He has brought in more revenue for the WWE than Thesz could have ever dreamed of doing.

Through marketing. Which is true. But WWE still makes more money off their corporate sponsors than the do having Cena as a walking billboard for their product.

If you're just talking about putting butts in seats and keeping them there Thesz did that better. And more consistently.

He has consistently molded and adapted his style, not just depending upon who he's working with but also with the changing of the times.

And Thesz didn't do this? Not everyone in the 50's and 60's worked a technical style. And sometimes different cities would either be pushing a more radical style and Thesz would have to adapt, or he'd play heel and have to change up his approach anyway.

And John Cena's mic skills outclass anyone not named Austin or Rock.

Mic skills didn't exist back then, so this is a moot point. But do you know what did? Wrestlers being able to speak publicly. Thesz did radio, talk shows, every city that he traveled to he appeared and spoke to fans, to journalists, to the newspapers, to hype himself up.

Wrestling back then wasn't just "lets lay down for 60 minutes rolling around and people will come watch this because they think it's real." There was pageantry, there was deception. People followed wrestling because wrestlers and promoters constantly spun all sorts of stories to create real animosity between wrestlers. Feuding was real, and they created grudges that lasted a lifetime. And fans then ate that up just as much as fans eat up the story lines of today.

So you want to talk about charisma and the ability to speak and sell yourself? Thesz did that just as well as Cena does. Except he did have queue cards or time to rehearse his lines.

In no way can you say Lou Thesz is a better pro wrestler.

Thesz had more longevity as a top star. He was a huge star for 3 decades. He was more consistent not only as a champion but as a dominant force. Cena loses to nobodies that don't ever rise up the card. When Thesz lost it always meant something.

All you can say is that Thesz is a better amateur wrestler, but since amateur wrestling has about as much to do with pro wrestling as Cena's All-American career as a football center, you have nothing to go on.

Thesz wasn't an amateur wrestler. Thesz was a legit shooter. There was a difference. And being a shooter meant that promoters valued him to not only protect the industry but to give it credibility. The same way that Cena is so highly marketable that he's been a top star in WWE for a decade.

 

[Cereal Killer]

Well, let's look at those matches with Angle after Cena won his first WWE title (Cena beat Angle to become the number one contender at Wrestlemania by the way):

Unforgiven 2005: Angle beats Cena where there was outside interference

Episode of Raw: See above

Survivor Series 2005: Cena beats Angle despite interference from Daivari, the referee

First Blood match in 2006: Outside interference

Yes, it shows before his prime, he wasn't the best at coping with outside interference, but Thesz wasn't a heel in his prime, was he? Bear in mind a young Cena did indeed defeat Angle and in the bouts he lost, was well on his way to doing so.

When we look at Brock, they've had 6 matches. 3 of which were when Cena hadn't even won his first title. So we're looking at the Extreme Rules match which Cena won, the SummerSlam match which Lesnar won and then the rematch the PPV after, which you can argue Cena would have won if Rollins had not gotten involved.

He's lost his fair share of matches in the past, there's no denying it. Even more than Hogan and Austin. But these opponents he's lost against are very different from Thesz. If Thesz would be a little like Angle like you're saying, then that style wouldn't really trouble Cena given what I mentioned above.

 

[Slyfox696]

Before I go into quote mode, I just want to say how obvious it is people don't want to actually think about the matchup. All the arguments being made for Thesz or against Cena essentially come down to "well, I want to vote Thesz because he's old school and voting old school makes me cool". I've yet to see a single logical argument to vote for Thesz over John Cena, especially when you consider Cena holds wins over a former Olympic gold medalist in freestyle wrestling and a win over the former UFC heavyweight champion.

But apparently he's not ready for the "real" (read: slow and boring) style of Thesz. It's just another example of people voting the way they like, not based on any valid logic.

I can see you were too lazy. Not lazy enough though, that you couldn't still go and cherry pick a few out of context comments to pass off as your 'ridiculousness'.

Nothing was out of context. Your point was that Thesz had to work slower because he was working a bunch of 60 minute matches. Thus, he couldn't work today's pace. Nothing out of context, I'm just pointing out the silliness of your position.

Thesz supporters want to have their cake and eat it too. They want to say he worked long matches, but ignore what those matches entailed. And you took it a step further, which is to say Thesz is used to working those long matches, but it's okay he didn't work fast because he couldn't, but we should still give him credit for long matches.

Your entire position is ridiculous.

Because your misrepresenting the differences in the eras, and declaring that the one you understand better personally is superior.

I posted two videos earlier in this thread. Are you really telling me anything I've said is incorrect? Did Thesz not just lay around the ring for most of the match? Was the pace of the match not much slower than Cena's?

I'm right. You know I'm right.

In Thesz's time, sports entertainment wouldn't have worked.

But we should still give him credit for it anyways, right? Thesz supporters have done nothing but talk out of both sides of their mouth all thread long.

You're assuming that Thesz couldn't work in sports entertainment, but that's all that is... an assumption.

No, I'm stating a fact that Thesz didn't work the modern style and Cena does. And since we're in TNA, we're working the modern style. Which means faster pacing, more high impact offense and a slew of offense Thesz has never worked against.

you're ignoring that work was just as much what fans of that day wanted to see as what John Cena does for fans today, and you're penalizing him because of it.

So if the Minneapolis Lakers of 1950, a team who once lost a game 19-18 because there was no shot clock, were to play the Cleveland Cavaliers and LeBron James in a game tomorrow, we should just assume the Lakers would be the favorites? Because that's what you're saying now.

The Cavaliers of today would destroy the Lakers of the early 1950s, not the least because the Lakers aren't familiar with the modern style of basketball, not to mention their complete unfamiliarity with the athleticism of today.

The stipulation favors Thesz

No, it doesn't as I've pointed out many times now. No matter how many times you claim something, it won't make something which is wrong correct.

Thesz is easily the tougher guy

How do you figure? I've seen John Cena get thrown through tables and get hit by chairs and win matches.

What evidence do you have of Thesz being tougher?

Neither guy has ever faced anyone like the guy they are facing here.

John Cena has worked against an Olympic gold medalist in freestyle wrestling. And he wasn't even in his prime at the time.

Is that a great argument? Probably not the best, but it's a shit ton better than saying Cena would lose because of conditioning.

Saying Cena would lose because of conditioning ranks as high on the ridiculous scale as saying a wrestler would lose because they've never climbed a ladder to paint their shed.

It's asinine.

Thesz knew perfectly well how the industry had changed even since the 1970's and 1980's, when he was still active.

I know the NBA has changed in the last 15 years, it doesn't mean I would be able to compete and be successful in it.

Where less people out of the total population watch and follow pro wrestling now than they did back in Thesz's era.

More people watch John Cena on a weekly basis than watched Thesz. You arguing otherwise is asinine and indicative of the mindset I talked about at the very beginning of the post.

I get it Ech, you don't like Cena and you think it makes you cool to argue for Thesz. But it doesn't make you cool. Voting for older wrestlers for no reason better than they are old is stupid. Going around watching a couple YouTube videos doesn't change the fact Cena has done, and continues to do, things Lou Thesz could never and would never have done.

John Cena is better and you know it. Voting for Thesz despite the fact Cena is better just makes you a mark for yourself.

 

[Bernkastel]

I get it Ech, you don't like Cena and you think it makes you cool to argue for Thesz.

Wow, just because I'd dare argue against Cena it means that I don't like him? Even though he's been one of my favorite wrestlers to watch for years?

But it doesn't make you cool.

Not trying to be "cool" here Sly. I'm trying to be objective.

Voting for older wrestlers for no reason better than they are old is stupid. Going around watching a couple YouTube videos doesn't change the fact Cena has done, and continues to do, things Lou Thesz could never and would never have done.

Nah, you only think it's stupid because you don't understand the time period. Even though Cena has certain advantages that Thesz never had... a massive promotional machine behind him, freedom of expression to do whatever he wants in his quest to be entertaining, and marketing exposure that simply did not exist back then... that doesn't make him better.

John Cena is better and you know it. Voting for Thesz despite the fact Cena is better just makes you a mark for yourself.

Let's go through this step by step then. And you tell me exactly which parts you disagree with. since I have clearly pointed out how Thesz is superior to Cena.

Drawing power - Cena is more marketable than Thesz. Great. But as I pointed out and you have yet to refute [because you can't] WWE makes more money off corporate sponsors and commercial advertisements than the revenue John Cena brings in to the company alone. WWE doesn't have to rely on Cena to get by, so thus he isn't carrying them. And if he did it isn't anywhere near has long as you'd like to tout. If they expand their total company revenue it ultimately has very little to do with Cena, correct? So is he not just another cog in their machine?

Thesz was good at drawing houses. He drew more 10,000 gates than anyone else during his prime. He drew millions of fans over the course of a 10 year period. In the 50's the NWA was a $25,000,000 a year industry [adjusting for inflation for a modern figure you can multiply that figure by 10.] And guess who was a major factor in the drawing of all that money? It took about 6 years for that heat he built up to finally cool down. And even later into his 40's he was still a major attraction.

Cena on the other hand does not draw. It is the WWE as a brand name that draws, clearly. In fact attendance for house shows with Cena as a headliner averaged about 5600 this year. And he headlined 50 of them. About 1000 below his baseline over a 5 year period. And Cena headlines the major cities. Many of the same one's Thesz did. And drew less.

We can go back and forth on drawing power all day, but it's but one factor in deciding the worth of a pro wrestler.

Longevity - Cena has been a top star for a decade. Thesz was a top star for three. Point Thesz.

Accolades - John Cena is a 15 time champion having held a world title belt for a combined 1600 days [or so] Lou Thesz was a 10 world champion and held a world title for a combined 18 years. So the "Cena faces overexposure" argument is rather moot compared to a guy that remained in the public eye as a world champion for nearly 20 years. Point Thesz.

Consistency - Prime John Cena often loses to people he has no business losing to. When Thesz lost matches in his prime it always meant something.

Charisma - Already been over this. Thesz could sell himself to the public just as well as Cena. He learned from one of pro wrestling's greatest manipulators ever, Ed Lewis. And he didn't have cue cards, rehearsal time, or do overs if he fucked up a segment.

And he consistently drew huge gates everywhere all over the world thanks to the reputation he built up not only as a legit fighter but as a polarizing figure.

In ring ability - Subjective category. You like Cena more. I get that. But there's nothing that Cena does that Thesz couldn't handle. Is Cena going to get frustrated and start bashing Thesz with chairs? No. is he going to start fighting dirty to get the upper hand? No. Cena is an honorable man. And thus he'd probably work Thesz's style and at his pace out of respect. Where he'd be far more prone to losing.

But on an objective note what exactly makes Cena better? Is it is use of psychology? Thesz did that. Better than anyone during the time period. His selling? Nope. Connecting to the audience? Thesz did that well enough for fans to continue to keep watching him. He drew huge gates before television. So in no way can you objectively say Cena's ability is greater than Thesz's. It is your personal preference.

Overall legacy - Thesz was a major factor in building the modern day wrestling platform. he took the industry to heights it had not seen before in one of the most important wrestling booms. Cena will be remembered as the biggest star of the current era, working in a time period where the WWE brand was much bigger than any of its individual stars.

Thesz had more longevity, he was more consistent, he drew better live attendance figures, and if we're going off kayfabe he was far more dominant. And if a 60 year old Antonio Inoki can handle Brock Lesnar in an hour long exhibition, Thesz can handle John Cena. He fought and defeated numerous men that were bigger and stronger than Cena. Like Bruno Sammartino. Or Don Leo Johnathon.

Thesz wins.

 

[Cereal Killer]

You can go back and forward about who the bigger draw is or who has the most accolades or whatever. The question is, how will that help them inside the ring?

I mean, based on whoever you think the best is based on your particular criteria, I'm sure they've lost before to others.

Edge for example, one of the most decorated superstars has lost on many occasions.

Hulk Hogan, the biggest draw in professional wrestling has even lost.

Cena's also beaten guys bigger than Bruno and Don Leo Johnathon such as The Big Show and The Great Khali.

 

[Bernkastel]

You can go back and forward about who the bigger draw is or who has the most accolades or whatever. The question is, how will that help them inside the ring?

I mean, based on whoever you think the best is based on your particular criteria, I'm sure they've lost before to others.

Lou Thesz once wrestled Karl Gotch and had his ribs broken. He continued wrestling and finished the match. I've seen plenty of wrestlers go through tables and not break any ribs. Not even CM Punk or Daniel Bryan. But since this is a 60 minute Iron Man match and not a Hardcore match I seriously doubt anyone is going through any tables. Last I checked Cena was not Sabu.

The "Cena is more conditioned" argument is just silly. And asinine. Thesz did all kinds of modern maneuvers regularly. Powerslams, dropkicks, cross bodies, suplexes. He even had signature moves which he performed all the time. The only main difference is that Cena's matches are structured to fit into a 10-20 minute time slot. Thesz drew his out for 60-90 minutes.

The argument that Thesz couldn't possibly restructure his matches and work a faster pace is just stupid.

EDIT: Cena has lost in his prime far more times than Thesz did his. And against people who did nothing with the rub. Cena is far more likely to be asked to job at this point than Thesz would. And if we are treating this tournament as a collective entity we still have the marketability of Austin and Rock. We wouldn't need Cena to advance any further.

 

[Cereal Killer]

Ok. Watch the videos Sly had posted earlier, even if it's just 5 minutes. You may appreciate what Thesz did more, but honestly, after watching both, tell me, which match looks like it'll require a lot more effort? Which man looks better conditioned, faster and more athletic in general?

 

[ServantofTwilight]

Voting for older wrestlers for no reason better than they are old is stupid.

Problem is the same can be said for the opposite. If you are just voting for someone because they are more current or modern is just as bad. Many of the matches this year between old vs new have been voted on based on who is younger and therefor more current.

In this thread it has been suggested that Cena should win because he wrestles a more modern style and Thesz would not be able to handle it. Thesz wrestled in the late 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s and 70s. He won the UWA Title in Mexico in 1978 at the age of 62 and held it for one year. Obviously Thesz has the ability to change with the times and adapt. Arguing he couldn't adapt to Cena is foolish.

Every year this tourney has been held a wrestler who was prominent in the Attitude Era has won. Seems to me it is all you younger guys who are voting blind rather then putting any thought into it.