TNA Region, Fourth Round, 60 Minute Iron Man Match: (1) John Cena vs. (4) Lou Thesz

Discussion in 'TNA Region' started by klunderbunker, Apr 9, 2015.

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Who Wins This Matchup?

  1. John Cena

  2. Lou Thesz

Multiple votes are allowed.
Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. klunderbunker

    klunderbunker Welcome to My (And Not Sly's) House

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    This is a fourth round match in the TNA Region. It is a 60 Minute Iron Man match, held at the Amway Center in Orlando, Florida.

    [​IMG]

    Rules: The match will run for sixty minutes and the most falls in that time wins. A fall is decided by pinfall, submission, countout or disqualification.

    [​IMG]

    #1. John Cena

    Vs.

    [​IMG]

    #4. Lou Thesz



    Polls will be open for five days following a one day period for discussion. Voting will be based on who you feel is the greater of the two competitors. Post your reasons for why your pick should win below. Remember that this is non-spam and the most votes in the poll win. Any ties will be broken by the amount of posts of support for each candidate, with one vote per poster.

    Also remember that this is a non-spam forum. If you post a response without giving a reason for your selection, it will be penalized for spam and deleted.
     
  2. Gelgarin

    Gelgarin Gentleman of the Old School

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    60 minute iron man.

    Guy who has gone 60 minutes once in his career vs guy who went functionally undefeated for three years, going 60 minutes on a regular basis.
    Oh, and the second guy's generally better anyway.

    Not much of a contest.
     
  3. Poop Master Flex

    Poop Master Flex Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Sorry Cena, this is where your stop on the WZ Tournament express comes to an end. Even though Cena has wrestled in 60 minute matches and won he's going up against a guy who could wrestle an hour in his sleep. The match itself favors Thesz in a big way here, it's just something guys like him did on a regular basis and it puts Cena out of his element a bit. Granted, Cena has often come up big in matches he's never competed in (his TLC with Edge in '06 for example) but as far as I can remember Cena has only had 2 matches that have went 60 minutes; his 60 minute Iron Man match with Orton (which was no DQ and no countout) and his match with HBK on Raw, ultimately coming up with a record of 1-1. It's not so much a question of if Cena can last 60 minutes because he has proved he can but he's going against one of the greatest wrestlers ever in circumstances that greatly favor his opponent.

    Thesz can beat Cena in so many ways whether it be a pin or submission and given the DQ and Countouts are ways to lose in this match Cena can't take Thesz out of his element too much. If it was a 60 minute match where there was No DQ or No Countouts Cena has a better chance because he can do things to take Thesz out of his comfort zone but that's not the case here. The fact is Cena is going against a guy who was almost unbeatable in his prime, a guy who knows about 50 different ways to beat Cena and is wrestling in a match that greatly favors Thesz.

    I think it will be a much better contest than it looks on paper but the result is still the same. Thesz advances.
     
  4. Bernkastel

    Bernkastel Reaper of Miracles

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    I was worried that Thesz would get the short end of the stick and draw a match that doesn't favor him in the least. Glad to see that isn't the case. Thesz would beat John Cena in an Iron Man match, why? Because he's wrestled and won more of them than I can count. John Cena has been in 1 [I think] and he did win, but Randy Orton isn't the greatest pro wrestler of time. Thesz is.

    Also since we're taking kayfabe seriously this year why WOULDN'T you vote for Thesz? Cena loses more than any other top star ever did. And even though his win percentage is higher than Hogan's or Austin's, it isn't anywhere close to Thesz's. Lou won close to 1,000 consecutive matches in a row and only lost because he chose to lose. If he hadn't of grown bored with being NWA champion for 7 years then would have remained undefeated even longer. In fact Thesz clocked a total of 10 years as the NWA's most dominant star, 18 years total as a major world champion [longer than anyone], and 30 years as a dominant force in the industry. That's 3 times longer than Cena.

    Also to counter the people that want to claim that Cena has been WWE's biggest star consistently for the last 10 years, he hasn't. If you want to get technical his longest run of dominance as the clear #1 guy was like 4 years [05-09.] Then he spent every other year as WWE's biggest star.

    So yeah, if you're voting kayfabe this year then you need to vote Thesz. If you're voting for the bigger and more important star in the industry then that's Thesz as well.
     
    Hollywood Naitch likes this.
  5. Tastycles

    Tastycles Turn Bayley heel

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    Thesz is one of the only people to have lasted longer than Cena at the top. Thesz may not have had the merchandising and television exposure Cena did, but he was so far beyond his contemporaries in terms of the maximising the number of people tuning in limited TV exposure, that I don't even think you can surrender this point to Cena.

    Thesz wrestled 60 minutes night in, night out for most of his career in front of huge audiences, and was capable of putting opponents away in multitudes of ways. Rena has wrestled that long and even beat Randy Orton in an iron man match. However, it was a close result and Orton isn't close to being in Thesz's league. Thesz wins.
     
  6. Mighty NorCal

    Mighty NorCal SHALL WE BEGIN?

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    Uh, you most certainly fucking can. Thesz grabbed a large majority of the audience because on any given night, he may have been in all literal sense, the only show on TV.


    Cena has persisted in popularity, viewership, and gross dollars at an incredible rate in an age were people have hundreds of other entertainment options, and this is just counting television, not video games or the internet.














    But yea, still Thesz. Huge draw, and consistently spent his carreer working 60 minutes matches. If it were many other gimmick matches, I would consider Cena, but he has no chance at all here.
     
  7. Tastycles

    Tastycles Turn Bayley heel

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    You're missing my point. There's no point in comparing the TV numbers for each for precisely the reasons you mention. However, what I'm saying is that Thesz's numbers on TV were miles better than the other people around at the time in much the same way that Cena's are compared to other people around now. I'm not saying it's a point in Thesz's favour, I'm just saying its not necessarily as obviously one in Cena's as you might think.
     
  8. Bernkastel

    Bernkastel Reaper of Miracles

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    This is true. John Cena is probably the most marketable pro wrestler in history, other than Santo. But despite there being limited channels on television 50-60 years ago the newspapers still covered pro wrestling, as did radio, so it was possible to follow the story lines even if you didn't own a television.

    All those extra channels and forms of entertainment have helped push people away from pro wrestling [WWE having a overwhelmingly dominant hold on the industry certainly doesn't help] as it's not like people in the 50's and 60's didn't have a ton of other forms of entertainment opinions to amuse themselves, but yet a greater percent of the total population chose to follow and support pro wrestling then than they do now.
     
  9. Pay Per Ghost

    Pay Per Ghost What they f*ck happened in the thread section here

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    The match overwhelmingly favours Thesz. A man who has constantly had marathon matches and succeeded, nay thrived on them and was the closest thing to a nationwide draw in the 50s in wrestling. By god he was popular for sure, and while John Cena might be global after how big WWE became, Thesz was a guy who went on talk shows, was honoured outside wrestling for BEING a great pro wrestler.

    Thesz is the man here.
     
  10. Bernkastel

    Bernkastel Reaper of Miracles

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    Thesz was a nationally known star in the States. Even if the NWA didn't have a foothold everywhere [and they covered just about every region TBH] fans of wrestling could still follow the undertakings of the NWA champion thanks to radio and the national and local papers.

    And not just the States. Thesz was known in Canada, Mexico, Japan, all over Europe, Australia, India... he was essentially the closest thing to a global draw in those days. And he worked far more dates than John Cena does. I read in the NWA book that he was clocking something like 2 million miles traveled on average a year.
     
  11. Pay Per Ghost

    Pay Per Ghost What they f*ck happened in the thread section here

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    Thesz was big and I know that. If it wasn't for him NWA wouldn't be as strong as they were because Thesz garnered a lot of attention as a straight up shooter and even if some people knew about kayfabe, they knew Thesz wasn't kayfabe.

    Its difficult to compare eras so fucking apart and to be honest I am leaning on Thesz because of the stip and how he bossed it.

    Fun fact: The Late Great Dara Singh from India wrestled Lou Thesz and Thesz called him one of the toughest men he has been in the ring with.

    Here's a cheap plug to a thread made I made when he passed:

    http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=221687&highlight=dara+singh
     
  12. Bernkastel

    Bernkastel Reaper of Miracles

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    Singh was cool, but I think Great Gama was better. In fact I very nearly included Gama on my list, but really there's virtually no way to compare him as [to my knowledge] he never lost, and most of his fights were the real deal. The only fixed fights he would have had were against big stars like Stan Zbyszko. He's like Hack or Gotch but more extreme in the boundary pushing. Like William Muldoon or Alex Aberg. I wouldn't have included them either.
     
  13. Hollywood Naitch

    Hollywood Naitch The current reigning and defending

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    I've got to give this to Thesz. Against pretty much any star he's faced, John Cena has found a way to come out on top, but I don't think he'd be able to get the W over Lou Thesz in a match like this.

    Cena's got great stamina, better than almost anyone...but Thesz isn't just anyone. He's got superhuman stamina, and has absolutely dominated in this kind of match. He may have gone 60 minutes more than any other wrestler, compared to Cena competing in an Iron Man match on only 2 occasions (with a record of 1-1).

    Cena would likely get a fall or two on Thesz, but Thesz's superior stamina and experience of pacing himself in this type of match would eventually tell. The NWA legend moves on.
     
  14. Pay Per Ghost

    Pay Per Ghost What they f*ck happened in the thread section here

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    Gama, ye see Dara Singh was more like The Rock. Actually he is EXACTLY like The Rock. The man was a great draw as a wrestler and then become a monumental draw as a Wrestler. I know little about Gama I must profess.

    Anyway well its Theszy here. I think its becoming kinda unanimous at this point
     
  15. nightmare

    nightmare ...7, 8, Better stay up late...

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    I see Cena pulling out a few tricks to get a fall or two, but in no way does he take the whole match. This favors his opponent about as well as a stipulation can in this tournament. Thesz has gone 60 minutes more times than Cena has swiped his credit card buying Boobs Bella overpriced accessories & that is saying a lot.


    I cannot think of any reason that Cena could ever go over Thesz in this match. Hell, he could probably take a tranquilizer dart and still get a few falls on Cena from the ground.
     
  16. Pay Per Ghost

    Pay Per Ghost What they f*ck happened in the thread section here

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    Sorry Up there I mean he was a great draw as a wrestler (Dara Singh) and a monumental draw as a movie star.

    His movies did phenomenal business for the time.

    Coming back, shouldn't someone say something for Cena here. Like anything
     
  17. Slyfox696

    Slyfox696 Excellence of Execution

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    I don't see how anyone can vote for Thesz here, especially in a 60 minute match. This isn't the boring wrestling style of the pre national TV era. John Cena is a hard hitting power wrestler. Thesz won't be able to just lay around on the mat for 60 minutes with headlocks.

    It's well known John Cena's conditioning is second to none and that's in a day and age where the wrestling is at a far faster pace than ever before. Cena is arguably the greatest world champion in history, leading the WWE's charge into mainstream acceptance and popularity like never before.

    Just compare these two matches:





    In the Thesz match, all you have is a bunch of laying on each other, whether it's on the ropes or on the mat (which would never happen in a TNA sanctioned match). In the Cena match, you have a ton of high impact moves and a much faster pace. Oh, and Cena is undefeated in the Iron Man match.

    This match has to go to Cena. Anyone arguing otherwise is succumbing to a nostalgic idea of pro wrestling from long ago.
    This comment is quite appropriate, because that's essentially what Thesz did. At least that's what my wife says it's called when I lay around and do nothing for an hour.
     
  18. Pay Per Ghost

    Pay Per Ghost What they f*ck happened in the thread section here

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    SO you are saying Cena won't wrestle Thesz's style.

    (I looked at the region and its TNA so fuck us all good god almighty!)

    And I should vote for Cena because he isn't as methodical and his matches have more high spots?
     
  19. Bernkastel

    Bernkastel Reaper of Miracles

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    Thesz wrestled 60 minutes matches more often and won more of them.

    Except that style wasn't boring and Thesz was predominantly featured on television.

    Just like Don Leo Johnathon and Killer Kowalski. Two men that Thesz defeated numerous times.

    And Lou Thesz didn't have great conditioning? if anything there's reason to believe that Cena's bulky muscle mass will slow him down against the fluid pacing that Thesz presented.

    Thesz was a world champion in some capacity for 18 years. Longer than anyone.

    Cena was more marketable. Great. But never before? Hardly. If pro wrestling is known to the mainstream it's because of what the WWE as a company does. Not what John Cena as an individual does. And wrestling in the 50's was just as popular as any other contact sport followed by millions of people across the nation.

    Which was great for the time period where fans didn't know wrestling was choreographed and thought it was real. Just like Cena's match was great for the time period where wrestling is just solely considered entertainment.

    Against one type of opponent. Randy Orton. In a match that was close. Thesz has gone 60 minutes with technicians,brawlers, acrobats, power wrestlers and has defeated them all.

    That form of wrestling was around mainstream audiences around the world for longer than modern sport entertainment has been. And without a massive promotional monopoly having to advertise and coddle all its big stars.

    Vote Thesz.
     
  20. Slyfox696

    Slyfox696 Excellence of Execution

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    You should vote for Cena because he's better and more suited for today's modern style. The biggest argument I've seen over and over again is "Thesz wrestled 60 minutes!", but who cares? He didn't wrestle for 60 minutes like they wrestle today, he layed around for 52 minutes, layed on the ropes for 5 minutes and did whatever else for 3 minutes.

    No one is in better shape than Cena, and Cena is more powerful and more accustomed to the modern style of wrestling. This is a Cena win all the way.
     
  21. Pay Per Ghost

    Pay Per Ghost What they f*ck happened in the thread section here

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    Yes of course he is more suited to todays style, just like Thesz was for all those years back. I thought we were supposed to keep those two eras in tact and then equate other elements.

    Cena is a physical specimen, sells like a drunk bull ye he is a great wrestler HOWEVER the eras are so faaar apart that if I consider all these matches how they would happen in 2015, none of the oldies would even make it past the 3rd round would they?

    To be honest this is a good question, what year are we playing these matches in our heads? If its today, thats incredible biased to the PG era stars
     
  22. Bernkastel

    Bernkastel Reaper of Miracles

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    Except we aren't treating this tournament like it's modern. We're treating it like a mesh of both past and present, considering both sides. Otherwise there would be zero point having anyone who wrestled prior to the mid 80's in this thing as it would be totally subjective to say how they would fare.

    But considering that Thesz was able to adapt his style because the industry implemented a ton of changes over the 4 decades he was active as a major star I'd say he'd fare well in the modern era.

    Of course not. He didn't have the freedom of expression like modern wrestlers do. he wrestled in a time period where the Athletics Commission still controlled wrestling and imposed a ton of regulations and rules on the sport that do not exist today.

    In the modern era maybe, but what if you gave Thesz all the modern advances in training, health, diet, and exercise that exist today would he [or any of his contemporaries who were head and shoulders above everyone else] not be in just as good of shape as John Cena?
     
  23. Slyfox696

    Slyfox696 Excellence of Execution

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    We're in a TNA ring, a company which didn't even come into existence until a little over 10 years ago. We're comparing these wrestlers in their prime and, in their primes, Cena is far better suited for the match he and Thesz would have, especially in a TNA ring.

    But that's the only argument I've even seen being made for Thesz. "He worked 60 minutes all the time". Yeah, well, that was what they did at the time. So you're telling me it's okay to give Thesz credit for the time era he worked but not have to suffer any of the drawbacks? That doesn't seem like a very honest argument.

    Well, we're wrestling in a ring of a company which didn't even exist until 2002. Furthermore, Thesz is working against John Cena, who DOES work the modern style, whether Thesz likes it or not.

    So Thesz is working against a modern wrestler in a modern region and just can't simply lay around for 60 minutes. I see no where Thesz has an advantage over Cena, aside from the fact people just sometimes like to vote for the oldies because they are old.

    But you're not. Most of the people who have picked Thesz based on ring work keep pointing to the era he wrestled in. So why should Thesz get credit for working 60 minutes when that was not uncommon during the period he worked, but not have to suffer any of the drawbacks?

    That doesn't seem valid at all.

    Very possible...but the people who are saying Thesz has the advantage because he laid around on the mat for 60 minutes, because that was the style of the times, have no argument.

    ...umm, so? My point is that those who are saying Thesz wins because he worked 60 minutes are being ridiculous. Thesz laid around for 60 minutes. He didn't go full out like John Cena does every night, nor did he have to deal with the incredibly high impact moves someone like Cena doles out.

    I know John Cena can take a headlock. Do you have proof Thesz can take a top rope leg drop to the head? I bet not.

    But he didn't. What if John Cena was given a 4 year undefeated streak? What if John Cena was 6'8?

    The what if game has no place in this matchup. The Thesz supporters want it both ways...they want to credit him for the time period he wrestled, while ignoring all the drawbacks to that argument.

    It's a dishonest argument. Either Thesz worked in the era or he didn't. If he did, then he doesn't get those advancements in training, health, diet and his 60 minute matches don't really mean much. And if he didn't work in that era for the purposes of this discussion, then what argument is left for putting Thesz over Cena? None.

    John Cena wins this to anyone concerned with legitimacy of their vote. Once you get past the "Thesz is old" sentiment, there's really no valid argument for Thesz at all.
     
  24. Bernkastel

    Bernkastel Reaper of Miracles

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    Most of those matches were also multiple falls. Like the Iron Man match. That match is uncommon in the modern era, but why is that a point in Cena's favor? Thesz was more suited to wrestling matches where the point was to win multiple falls under a time limit.

    As opposed to the argument that Cena wrestles in the modern era so he'd win?

    If we're comparing era's wasn't Thesz better at doing his job as a pro wrestler then than Cena is now? Sure Cena is marketable, but WWE could very much survive on the endorsements they receive from corporate sponsors. Do they really actually need Cena's individual star power? The NWA needed Lou Thesz's. Otherwise there would have been no growth.

    Which is a fair point, but Thesz worked many more matches a year than Cena did. And not every match was the same. Same formula, but not the same. That would be like saying that because Cena has a set of signature moves that he performs all the time, and wins all his matches with either the AA or STF that all his matches appear to be the same thing. That would be false. Same principle. Thesz did go all out. Every time. Saying that Cena was somehow better at "going all out" is subjective.

    As far as incredibly high impact moves are concerned you've got to look at the era's. A cross body was considered to be a high impact move back then. It would not have made sense for someone to come off the top rope and bash someone across the skull with their leg. Goes back to psychology.

    Just like some Indy guy that can take a cockscrew flippy move transitioned into a leg drop isn't considered tougher than John Cena.

    Should it matter? Thesz has taken piledrivers from Wild Bill Longson. Is that not still considered a high impact move even by today's standards?

    What about power slams from 300 pound musclemen? Thesz took those too.

    Okay then Thesz was simply a better technician than Cena and could easily counter the STF [since he created the maneuver.] He was faster and could outmaneuver the bulkier muscle man into pins more efficiently than Cena could wasting energy to try and put Thesz away with high impact moves.

    Thesz had better technique. Thesz was faster. Thesz defeated a wider variety of opponents in multiple fall matches that had a 60 minute time limit.

    Except for Thesz being the overall better pro wrestler. Which he was. So he should win.
     
  25. Cereal Killer

    Cereal Killer Boy Better Know

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    Are people forgetting that athletes are much better conditioned today than ever before? That diets are better, training is better and the knowledge around that field is far more superior today than in the '50s?

    So what if Thesz fought in more 60 minute matches? Cena is the more athletic star and competing in his first Money In The Bank match didn't stop him from winning it, bearing in mind all of the other names in that match in 2012 had appeared in more MITB matches. Second Iron-Man match or not, I'm going to go with Cena.
     

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