TNA Hartford, Round 1, Match 5: #5 Roddy Piper vs. #60 Santino Marella

[Big Sexy]

In summary, Piper is a legend. But Santino has just as much talent as Piper does, .

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Santino pulls out good matches with every average wrestlers and women wrestlers like Mickie James. You tell me what's harder.

I honestly don't know what you consider a great match, but it's pretty hard to have a great match when none of your matches last more then 5 minutes.

Santino carried an out of shape nobody of Jimmy Kimmel, cousin Sal

You know he lost that match right?

The fact is most wouldn't even know what to do in a six sided ring. Piper would probably try to irish whip somebody into the turnbuckle, only to turn around and see the bounced off the ropes and slammed right back into him

Ring type doesn't mean shit, especially since Santiono has never fought in TNA either.

 

[Showtime]

What does this have to do with this match at all?

Everything kinda. It is a TNA match. You have to take the environment they are in into consideration.

How so? Piper has worked for many different promotions, all with different sized rings and ropes. I'm sure he's smart enough to adapt to the TNA ring beforehand. He has made appearances in TNA you know.

Made appearances, but never wrestled.

Do you think Roddy is some dunce with the IQ of a pea-pod? The guy could be smart and methodical. He's been in the TNA ring before, unlike Santino. He'd have no problem adapting to it.

Again, Piper never wrestled in TNA. Santino, as I mentioned, has been in real fights inside a hexagon shaped ring, so while Piper may adapt or not, Santino has been in a six sided ring.

Uh, well let's see. He was a part of the biggest, most important feud of the 80's, putting Hulkamania on the map and helping make WresteMania a success, was the biggest heel magnet in the promotion, yet became one of the most popular faces of all-time, had a revolutionary talk show which influenced every other one you've seen since, he was apart of some of the best matches in wrestling history, and actually worked hard in solid, classic matches to win his titles.

I think Hulk and Vince put Hulkamania on the mat. Piper and Mr T biggest feud? Look, Piper helped out a lot during that feud and for Wrestlemania, so did Orndorff but you don't see him get any credit for it. Wanna talk about being in big important feuds, Ultimate Warrior beat Hogan in a dramatic moment and he most certainly did jack all after.

Santino couldn't even win his titles on his own, is over because of his accent and gets beaten off women. Yet people have the nerve to compare him to Piper

I think comparing him against Piper is out of everyones hands, see the bracket draw. Do you want me to compare Santino verse Carlito? King Kong Bundy? Wahoo McDaniel? I think my argument would make less sense. Santino won titles, It took Piper over 10 years to win two titles in WWE and only won one in WCW.

He sure was pretty over for "nothing more than a glorified interviewer", huh?

A little harsh I admit.

Need I break out the Santino Marella win/loss record?

And still 91 out of 500 wrestlers this year. For someone who loses quite a lot, the PWI still consider him a strong wrestler. I guess win-loss record doesn't mean much. And I'm confused now, Are we looking at how the match would be in both men's prime, or what they've done historically? Cause it don't take a brain dead moron to see that what someone has done in 20 years will outweigh what one has done in 2.

The historical significance outweighs the fact that he lost.

Still lost.

Yeah, in comparison to Santino. Remember those classics he had with....uh, someone help me out here?

Coming from the crowd in Italy to beat Umaga for the IC title in his first match, classic. Let's not forget he's only been in the WWE for 2 years only. If he look at just 2 years of any of Pipers career we won't see a lot of classics either. And while Santino may be short on classic matches, he is filled with many classic moments, skits and promos as Piper or anybody, his whole beef with Austin, dating Maria and the Playboy angle, the pepsi machine, the honk-a-meter, Glamarella, the feud with Jimmy Kimmels cousin, trying to give away the Santa Clause secret, and the matches with the divas. Put any other wrestler in those situations and they would bomb. Put Santino in and they were awesome.

There's absolutely no shame in losing to Bret Hart.

No shame, but he still lost.

A pretty decent brawl. But it pales in comparison to that classic he had with Micke James the other week, no contest.

You mean the one where Santino fought one-handed then no-handed. All variables considering, that was a good match. I doubt Piper could've pulled off half as good of a match verse a Diva with no hands.

Piper didn't need titles to get over. He was already a huge star years before he'd even won the Intercontinental championship.

True, but it does show that he wasn't a winner.

He was the greatest hell of his era, no question about it.

See DiBiase, but those two were like dead even.

He's certainly had many more interesting matches and feuds than Santino has.

Again, comparing 20 to 2. Of course Piper accomplished more, I'm not brain dead.

So what? Neither has Santino.

So their even then in that respect.

Oh boy, everybody remembers that first title reign. He couldn't even win the title by himself! And that second one, damn, what a classic. So classic that he didn't even actually win the match, his girlfriend did!

You're right. Everyone does remember his first, a classic IC title upset. It will be played for years as one of the bigger surprises ever on RAW. A title win is a title win. I didn't see Piper win title multiple times in WWF or WCW.

Santino Marella made John Cena and Batista look good?

Did he make them look bad? Is that what your insinuating?

Roddy Piper was ranked 17th of all the times. But really, as worthless as the PWI argument is, Roddy still annihilates Santino in awards.

Awards and accomplishments mean nothing in a fight. from 1-2-3 kid to the great Santino, anyone can win a match any time verse any opponent. Piper was one of the best all-time. But we're looking not at overall accompishments. If we were, almost every current wrestler wouldn't make it past the second round and the all the top seeds would easily make it to the final 16. We're looking at Piper in his prime verse Santino in his prime in a TNA match. The outcome I think would be close.

I think it's tougher to headline pay-per-views with the likes of Hulk Hogan and Ric Flair and come out on top.

Let's be real. I'm trying to turn water into wine by putting Santino over Piper. I'm a huge fan of Santino and as such am trying to put him over Piper. Was it all logically sound, not always, but sometimes the beauty is in the attempt. I attempted to put over Santino well and anyone's counter argument is valid, but you can't deny some of the points I have made.

 

[Showtime]

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Hi, I'm David, nice to meet you two

honestly don't know what you consider a great match, but it's pretty hard to have a great match when none of your matches last more then 5 minutes.

One where both people come out looking good. Mickie beat a man and Santino looked good even with both hands behind his back.

You know he lost that match right?

You know Piper lost his matches to Mr. T.

Ring type doesn't mean shit, especially since Santiono has never fought in TNA either.

I think they fight in 6-sided rings in MMA. I could be wrong, but I thin so. I know not quite the same, but Santino has more training than Piper has. Santino has fought in MMA. If we looked at this as a real fight, I think that might give the edge to Santino, he could break your neck and kick you in half.

 

[MattMoses]

Everything kinda. It is a TNA match. You have to take the environment they are in into consideration.

I'm not following you here. What does no legend from Piper's era not comepting in a TNA ring have to do with Piper?

Piper never wrestled in TNA.

Santino has never wrestled in TNA either.

I've never seen any evidence of Santino training or performing in a six sided ring. Hell, I've never seen a MMA company use a six sided ring. Not to mention the ropes and ring dimensions are completely different when comparing professional wrestling and mixed martial arts.

Santino has been in a six sided ring.

Care to show us Santino competing in a six sided ring?

I think Hulk and Vince put Hulkamania on the mat.

No doubt. But Piper was Hogan's main rival throughout the 80's, and was the number one heel in the company. If it wasn't for their feud stemming from "The War to Settle the Score" through to WrestleMania, it wouldn't have been a success.

It took Piper over 10 years to win two titles in WWE and only won one in WCW.

Piper was always in the upper-midcard/main-event while he was with the WWE. Piper didn't need a title to get over with the fans.

And comparing the time it took Piper to win a title to how long it took Santino to win is ridiculous. Back when Piper won his championships, titles changed hands much less than they do now.

And still 91 out of 500 wrestlers this year. For someone who loses quite a lot, the PWI still consider him a strong wrestler. I guess win-loss record doesn't mean much. And I'm confused now, Are we looking at how the match would be in both men's prime, or what they've done historically? Cause it don't take a brain dead moron to see that what someone has done in 20 years will outweigh what one has done in 2.

We are comparing both men in their primes.

But if you're going to bring up some ranking Santino made years after Piper retired as a regular performer, then it's only fair to use Piper's rankings when Santino wasn't an active performer.

Still lost.

Big deal. Piper wasn't even the one pinned.

Coming from the crowd in Italy to beat Umaga for the IC title in his first match, classic.

The only thing I remember from that match is Bobby Lashley interfering on behalf of Santino to further build the feud between Lashley and Umaga/the McMahons.

Let's not forget he's only been in the WWE for 2 years only.

It doesn't matter. We're comparing both men's careers in their entirety, despite longetivity.

If he look at just 2 years of any of Pipers career we won't see a lot of classics either.

This is irrelevant to the tournament. But let's say I take 1985 - 1987. Need I reel off the many classic Piper's Pit segments?

And while Santino may be short on classic matches, he is filled with many classic moments, skits and promos

This tournament isn't based on skits and promos.

You mean the one where Santino fought one-handed then no-handed. All variables considering, that was a good match. I doubt Piper could've pulled off half as good of a match verse a Diva with no hands.

The fact is, Santino is being booked to lose to women, while an out-of-shape far past his prime Roddy Piper has a high profile match at WrestleMania.

See DiBiase, but those two were like dead even.

If I had to choose one, I'd take Piper. I wouldn't argue against DiBiase though.

You're right. Everyone does remember his first, a classic IC title upset. It will be played for years as one of the bigger surprises ever on RAW. A title win is a title win. I didn't see Piper win title multiple times in WWF or WCW.

You're right. He was feuding with the likes of Hulk Hogan and Ric Flair. He didn't need mid-card titles.

Did he make them look bad? Is that what your insinuating?

Walk me through how Santino made them look good.

Awards and accomplishments mean nothing in a fight.

So why do you keep bringing up the PWI and Santino having more IC title reigns then?

We're looking at Piper in his prime verse Santino in his prime in a TNA match. The outcome I think would be close.

How would it be close? When is Santino's prime?

Piper rarely lost cleanly during his prime, yet beat the likes of Hogan and Flair.

Let's be real. I'm trying to turn water into wine by putting Santino over Piper. I'm a huge fan of Santino and as such am trying to put him over Piper. Was it all logically sound, not always, but sometimes the beauty is in the attempt. I attempted to put over Santino well and anyone's counter argument is valid, but you can't deny some of the points I have made.

I have no problem with you trying to put Santino over Piper, I applaud you for it. That is the purpose of this debate afterall.

 

[klunderbunker]

For those of you that want to talk about Piper's win/loss record, he debuted in the WWF in 1984 and wasn't pinned on television until 1992 when he lost to Bret Hart. Santino is a jobber, about the same level of importance of the Stooges from the late 90s. Both won bullshit titles, were joke champions, were used as comedy pieces, and never accomplished anything on their own. For those of you that think Piper was all talk, I'd point you to Starrcade 83 and the Dog Collar Match. This is absolutely brutal and a bloodbath. Piper and Greg Valentine beat the living hell out of each other and Piper got the win. Santino is for comedic effect and while he's funny at times, Piper and Piper's Pit are the original and best of the comedy segments. To even have these two in the ring together is just laughable.

 

[Big Sexy]

You know Piper lost his matches to Mr. T.

Piper lost the first match because it was a tag match and MR T's partner happened to be Hulk Hogan. Hogan pinned Orndorff to win the match, so Piper and Mr T weren't even involved in the decision. The second match was a boxing match and Piper lost because he body slammed Mr T. Santino was actually pinned by cousin Sal.

Santino has fought in MMA. If we looked at this as a real fight, I think that might give the edge to Santino, he could break your neck and kick you in half.

This isn't MMA and this isn't a real fight. It is a kayfabe wrestling match that Piper would win in under 3 minutes.

 

[Father:_Polley]

Big deal, Santino had a tough OVW character. You wanna know who else was in OVW? Spirit Squad... they rocked. No wait, they sucked. It's not exactly a great claim to fame is it.

When all else fails, Piper trained Cousin Sal for a win over Marella. Kayfabe, yes, but this is kayfabe.

 

[Showtime]

I'm not following you here. What does no legend from Piper's era not comepting in a TNA ring have to do with Piper?


Santino has never wrestled in TNA either.

I've never seen any evidence of Santino training or performing in a six sided ring. Hell, I've never seen a MMA company use a six sided ring. Not to mention the ropes and ring dimensions are completely different when comparing professional wrestling and mixed martial arts.


Care to show us Santino competing in a six sided ring?

I guess a little ahead of myself on the whole six-sided crap

Carelli was born in Mississauga, Ontario, Canada. He was a MMA fighter in Japan for several years before moving to the United States in May 2005 to learn to become a professional wrestler.

The best I could find, it's from wikipedia. There's also a video on youtube about Santino in OVW where he shows some impressive fighting skills.


No doubt. But Piper was Hogan's main rival throughout the 80's, and was the number one heel in the company. If it wasn't for their feud stemming from "The War to Settle the Score" through to WrestleMania, it wouldn't have been a success.

Piper was always in the upper-midcard/main-event while he was with the WWE. Piper didn't need a title to get over with the fans.

And comparing the time it took Piper to win a title to how long it took Santino to win is ridiculous. Back when Piper won his championships, titles changed hands much less than they do now.

So how does that make Piper look losing his title in shorter time than Santino. Santino likewise doesn't need titles to get over with the fans. Many of his lasting moments in the WWE have come when he hasn't had a belt.

We are comparing both men in their primes.

But if you're going to bring up some ranking Santino made years after Piper retired as a regular performer, then it's only fair to use Piper's rankings when Santino wasn't an active performer.

But you didn't. You used a ranking based on his entire career.

It doesn't matter. We're comparing both men's careers in their entirety, despite longetivity.


This is irrelevant to the tournament. But let's say I take 1985 - 1987. Need I reel off the many classic Piper's Pit segments?


This tournament isn't based on skits and promos.

Then what is this tournament based on? The wrestlers career as a whole, no, I don't buy that. We might as well just let anybody who's ever wrestled for 15+ years a free pass through the next two rounds as there is little hope for anybody with under 5 years to match up against them. No, I like Slys definition where we look at the wrestler as a whole, including in-ring skill, titles, matches, e.t.c. and if we look at those then we must look at the other parts that make good wrestlers, namely promos and mic skills and skits and overness HAVE to also be taken into account. They make up the wrestler too. We look at their whole career and invision them in a match with the certain circumstances, i.e. this one has a ring with 6-sides. Shelton is a solid in-ring performer, but the man doesn't have terriific mic skills, is he a great wrestler, debatable. Charlie Haas is also a good in-ring wrestler, but also has below par mic skills and almost no connection with the crowd, same with Lance Storm. Are they all great wrestlers, NO. Santino is terrific at the out of ring stuff and if you look closely, he is also a solid in-ring worker. Have you even seen a Santino match where his opponent looked bad in the ring. No, Santino's job is to look bad and make his opponents look good and he is flawless at that. That's what makes him a terrific wrestler.

The fact is, Santino is being booked to lose to women, while an out-of-shape far past his prime Roddy Piper has a high profile match at WrestleMania.

And we've heard just about every wrestling fan moan and complain about the match. I've heard some state that Santino would make a better opponent verse the 3 old guys than Jericho. And despite being booked to lose to women and just about everyone else in 2008, Santino still reached 91 out of every wrestler currently wrestling. Why? There has to be some reason to be ranked so high despite losing to everyone from both sexes. Hmmm, maybe that's because he is a good wrestler by the definition of being a good wrestler is, a strong performer who is able to put themselves and their opponents over, make their opponents look good or bad when they are supposed to as well as themselves, and have solid promo and mic skills and be over with the crowd. I think we can check Santino's name right beside of all of those factors.

You're right. He was feuding with the likes of Hulk Hogan and Ric Flair. He didn't need mid-card titles.

And Santino with Batista and Cena, I guess you could call them somewhat modern day equivalents to Hogan and Flair.

Walk me through how Santino made them look good.

Cena and Batista are a stretch, there both already good or as good as they can be. Santino didn't make them look crappy, or clumsy, or weak. Both were cheered for beating him so that doesn't hurt them either. No, I'm referring more to Santino's matches with Mickie and Beth, and believe me, it wasn't the women who made themselves look good. Santino took all their moves well, made them look real and not that he fell or layed down or was clumsy with them. They had a real match and made it work. Despite losing to women, it hasn't made Santino look any worse and the Diva's always look better. Then there's his match with an injured Mysterio. Mysterio was not in shape to wrestle yet after his move from RAW, Santino did everything in setting up the little mini feud with him and working a match that allowed Mysterio not to over work himself, but still look impressive in defeating Santino. Watch Santino's matches that do go longer than 2 minutes. You'll see some good selling by Santino and you'll see that despite beating the easiest of opponents, none of his opponents looked bad or weak in defeating Santino. They all came out better and more over than before.

So why do you keep bringing up the PWI and Santino having more IC title reigns then?

You caught me on a slip. My point was anyone from the 1-2-3 Kid to Micky Whipwreck can beat anyone. Titles and accomplishments do mean something. I'm just saying they don't mean everything.

How would it be close? When is Santino's prime?

OVW, lol. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZMrOV22rRc

I have no problem with you trying to put Santino over Piper, I applaud you for it. That is the purpose of this debate afterall.

Yes it is. And now I'm done.

 

[Lee]

You do realise that Boris Alexiev is NOT Santino Marella? This is a kayfabe tournament and it's Marella we're taking into account not a Russian in OVW, it's like saying Jillian Hall is one of the best diva werstlers because damned could she wrestle in the indies.

 

[gd]

You do realise that Boris Alexiev is NOT Santino Marella? This is a kayfabe tournament and it's Marella we're taking into account not a Russian in OVW, it's like saying Jillian Hall is one of the best diva werstlers because damned could she wrestle in the indies.

Some people may consider that his prime, so it is legitimate they that could be used as his persona when voting. For istance, some people may think The Giant is the best version of Big Show, so they will base their arguments of him. Boris Alexiev certainly SHOULD be considered in this match.

BTW: Jillian Hall is a very good women's wrestler.

 

[MattMoses]

Okay, the whole Santino "Boris Alexiev" Marella shows some "impressive fighting skills" in OVW. Honestly, I'm not impressed in the slightest. Are you telling me that Roddy Piper wouldn't know how to throw strikes? Kick his opponent? Apply basic holds? Honestly, I'm not seeing the big deal with this gimmick.

Let's not mention how often he was defeated under that gimmick. Suffering his first loss to nobody other than the amazing, revolutionary Elijah Burke. Not forgetting the likes of Chet the Jet and Mike Kruel too.

If Roddy Piper can beat the likes of Jack Briscoe, Ricky Steamboat, Greg Valentine and Ric Flair (bearing in mind these wins were before he'd even signed with the WWF), then why would he have a problem with Santino? All these workers in their prime would have ran circles around Santino and his not-so impressive OVW work.

Piper's had some of the most entertaining feuds in the history of pro wrestling, hosted a revolutionary talk show which spawned many copycats, played both a heel and face to perfection, has beaten the top stars in the business, is arguably the greatest on the mic of all-time, and proven with the likes of Greg Valentine and Bret Hart that he can put on astounding classics which are still talked about to this day.

Honestly, Santino's in-ring work and accomplishments just don't match up to that of Roddy's, anyway shape or form. Roddy rarely lost throughout the 70's and 80's, and as KB mentioned, wasn't actually defeated on television for eight years.

 

[2012isbs]

In his defense Santino can wrestle I myself am not a big fan but in OVW under the name Boris Alexiex he was a serious wrestler. Still not as good as Piper but decent so all in all I say Piper for two general reasons he's a better wrestler and he's actually been to TNA so it won't be as much an adjustment for him as Santino.

 

[Cena's Little Helper]

As enticing as rep for voting for Marella sounds, my reason compels me to vote for Piper, a man whose greatness Marella will probably never touch (and, he sure as hell won't touch it if he continues down his current path). As funny as Marella can sometimes be, I think we all need to realize that he is nothing more than a jobber whom we all envy because of his constant involvement with the Divas.

Pick: Piper