Third Round - Chicago: 2/3 Falls Match - El Santo vs. Shawn Michaels

[klunderbunker]

This is a Third Round match in the Chicago Region.

Rules: You've all seen these before. There is little to think of here. We have three regular matches, first to win two of them wins. There are standard rules, as in win by pinfall, submission, countout or disqualification. There will be a one minute rest period between rounds. Also, the amount of rounds taken to win is not important, meaning Shawn winning in two falls is voted for in the same manner as taking all three falls.

Location: United Center, Chicago, Illinois

El Santo

Vs.

Shawn Michaels

​

Voting is open for 4 days.

 

[Tastycles]

Shawn Michaels should lose this match for a multitude of reasons, but fortunately, this match has come during my exam period so I do not have the time to repeatedly post in this thread and get pissed off at the outcome when the inevitable happens. There is pretty much no reason Michaels should win this:

Michaels, Santo and legends: A history

Hulk Hogan, The Undertaker, Steve Austin and John Cena. All legends, and all of them have quite routinely dispatched of Michaels. Even if you go to the next tier of greats, Kurt Angle, Diesel and Triple H are there to confirm what I just said. Michaels does not wrestle well against, well anybody really. In fact, the only big match singles win of his career came against Bret Hart, another wrestler who has a patchy record.

Santo on the other hand was able to beat Blue Demon and Gory Guerrero, who were basically the height of greatness at the time when he did it. He went on to beat countless other luchadors for several decades. In terms of beating big named players, Santo absolutely has this one.

Homefield advantage

Something that will no doubt be brought up is "If this match was in Mexico then..." Well, no it isn't, true, but Mexicans have done well in WWE. Indeed, Eddie Guerrero and Rey Mysterio are booked as Mexicans and were both world champion inside the last five or six years.

So I think attacking Santo from this point of view is a non-starter. What about looking at Michaels from an American point of view. Well, at the absolute height of his relevance he won the world title in San Antonio at Royal Rumble 1997 in front of screaming fans, right? Wrong. That event is notorious for being one of the most heavily papered events ever and hardly anyone there paid to get in. Uh-oh. More on that later, but if Michaels can't drum up support in his home town, then what hope does he have when he is 1,300 miles away?

Drawing

Absolutely no argument here. When big named foreign stars wrestle in the US, they're quite well watched. If we're talking about when Santo was in his prime, the comparison would be people like Enrique Torres and particularly Primo Carnera, an Italian who drew in the north of the country.

Michaels never drew anywhere. You know that big 84 week that everyone always says Nitro had over Raw? It maps on almost perfectly to Michaels' career. In fact it ended literally the week after he disappeared. Coincidence? No. Wrestling fans have never wanted to see him.

Moves

Michaels actually has a more limited moveset than John Cena, or has done in recent years anyway. Santo is a luchador, so by definition, has a lot more flowing variety in what he does. This shouldn't really be about how many moves they do though, it should be about how many moves they have that can put people away, and Santo has more finishers, which is important when we come to our next criteria.

Match type

Santo spent his entire career winning 2 out of 3 falls matches, because that's what every single match in Mexico was and still is for the most part. Michaels has had two multiple falls matches, winning one in extra time and drawing the other. That kind of experience just isn't enough. I'm sure he'll be able to get a superkick in at some stage, probably for a pinfall, but then what has he got? Nothing. Undertaker put him down by attrition, and Santo who has 3 or 4 signature moves too should be able to do the same thing.

I really could go on, but I promised myself I'd stop at the time it is now. Santo should win this match, whatever your criteria, unless it is "be a manipulative ******** backstage", so I urge you, if you haven't already voted Michaels, to vote Santo so at least he won't get a raping he most definitely doesn't deserve.

 

[D-Man]

Tasty's post basically summed up everything I was thinking.

It's a shame, but HBK got a bad draw here. Sure, he's one of my fav's, but I'd rather vote in this tournament as a constructive voter and not some fanboy. If I take away my personal feelings, this should be El Santo's to win.

 

[Mr. Truth]

I went with the same logic as Tasty. This match is far more suited to El Santo then HBK. Unfortunately HBK is going to end up winning the vote since people in this forum love the guy for some reason, and don't bother to even figure out who anyone who doesn't have an English name is.

 

[Jsaturn14]

Michaels, Santo and legends: A history

Hulk Hogan, The Undertaker, Steve Austin and John Cena. All legends, and all of them have quite routinely dispatched of Michaels. Even if you go to the next tier of greats, Kurt Angle, Diesel and Triple H are there to confirm what I just said. Michaels does not wrestle well against, well anybody really. In fact, the only big match singles win of his career came against Bret Hart, another wrestler who has a patchy record.

Santo on the other hand was able to beat Blue Demon and Gory Guerrero, who were basically the height of greatness at the time when he did it. He went on to beat countless other luchadors for several decades. In terms of beating big named players, Santo absolutely has this one.

Oh, so your saying that beating Bret Hart in an hour long iron man match doesn't matter? What about beating The Undertaker in the first HIAC match, or beating HHH at Summerslam 2002, or beating Chris Jericho at Wrestlemania 19, or beating Kurt Angle in a Wrestlemania Rematch at Vengeance 2005, or winning the First Ever Elimination Chamber? Does those matches mean nothing as well? Shawn Michaels is perfectly capable of beating big name guys and legends. Oh, and just for the record, he is also capable of having the best match on the card night in and night out as evidenced by his 11 PWI Match of the Year awards. Just saying.

Homefield advantage

Something that will no doubt be brought up is "If this match was in Mexico then..." Well, no it isn't, true, but Mexicans have done well in WWE. Indeed, Eddie Guerrero and Rey Mysterio are booked as Mexicans and were both world champion inside the last five or six years.

So I think attacking Santo from this point of view is a non-starter. What about looking at Michaels from an American point of view. Well, at the absolute height of his relevance he won the world title in San Antonio at Royal Rumble 1997 in front of screaming fans, right? Wrong. That event is notorious for being one of the most heavily papered events ever and hardly anyone there paid to get in. Uh-oh. More on that later, but if Michaels can't drum up support in his home town, then what hope does he have when he is 1,300 miles away?

I am curious about this claim that Royal Rumble 1997 was heavily papered. I have never heard of anything about this before. I am not going to dispute it, or agree with it until I get some evidence about this. Where did you hear about this?

Drawing

Absolutely no argument here. When big named foreign stars wrestle in the US, they're quite well watched. If we're talking about when Santo was in his prime, the comparison would be people like Enrique Torres and particularly Primo Carnera, an Italian who drew in the north of the country.

Michaels never drew anywhere. You know that big 84 week that everyone always says Nitro had over Raw? It maps on almost perfectly to Michaels' career. In fact it ended literally the week after he disappeared. Coincidence? No. Wrestling fans have never wanted to see him.

Ah, the infamous drawing argument. "Look at that time that Shawn was champion. WCW was killing them! If HBK is so good then why was WCW crushing WWE when he was champ? SEE, HBK CAN'T DRAW!" Let, me just throw out a little counter-argument to this: could it be that the reason why HBK wasn't able to pull WWE out of its stupor during that time has nothing to do with HBK's drawing power, and EVERYTHING TO DO WITH WHAT WCW WAS DOING DURING THAT TIME? I have said it before, and I will say it again, not even Stone Cold Steve Austin could have beaten WCW during that 84 week time frame. This was the time when the NWO was at the height of its popularity. This was a time when the biggest face of all time, Hulk Hogan, was actually a heel. What the hell could possibly beat seeing that? Tell me what could beat the NWO when it first started? HBK did everything he could to help the WWE, but he had just bad luck. It had nothing to do with HBK's drawing power. Now, did the WWE start winning when HBK had more bad luck and got hurt? Yes, they did, but they would have won with HBK as well. Two things happened to contribute to WWE finally beating WCW in the ratings:

1: WCW started to go overboard with the NWO, and it stopped being a cool 3 man group that everyone wanted to see, and started to become a gang of thugs that would just start beating on everyone, and it started to get boring to watch. Every Nitro would end with somebody getting beaten up and spray painted by the NWO. There was no variety. It was boring.

2: WWE started to go into the Attitude Era with Stone Cold Steve Austin but also with..oh...what was that group that HBK founded that really began the attitude era....oh....what was it....oh yeah.......DX! If it wasn't for HBK starting DX there never would have been an attitude era. Plain and simple.

So yeah, the WWE beating WCW in the ratings had nothing to do with HBK's drawing power, and everything to do with the bad decisions WCW made and the good decisions WWE made. You want to talk about HBK's drawing power? What about 80,000 people at WM 23 to see HBK vs Cena, which was put into the main event spot for a reason, or the last two Wrestlemanias. What match was the most anticipated at the last two Wrestemanias. What match sold the last two Wrestlemanias? Oh yeah, HBK vs Taker, thats right. HBK can draw. HBK can draw well.

Moves

Michaels actually has a more limited moveset than John Cena, or has done in recent years anyway. Santo is a luchador, so by definition, has a lot more flowing variety in what he does. This shouldn't really be about how many moves they do though, it should be about how many moves they have that can put people away, and Santo has more finishers, which is important when we come to our next criteria.

All it takes is one great finisher to finish a match, and all HBK needs is a second and your lights are out.

I really could go on, but I promised myself I'd stop at the time it is now. Santo should win this match, whatever your criteria, unless it is "be a manipulative ******** backstage", so I urge you, if you haven't already voted Michaels, to vote Santo so at least he won't get a raping he most definitely doesn't deserve.

Seriously? Your gonna use how a man was 15 years ago against him? That is pretty weak in my opinion. Was HBK a "manipulative ******** backstage" 15 years ago? You damn right he was. HBK has admitted time and time again that he was a complete dick back then, and he had a whole mess of problems. People would tell him what to do, and he would fight it to the death. That was his personality. I stress, that was his personality. HBK is a much better man today. HBK over the last 8 years has proven that he is a changed man. The man has had one, month long, title run in the past 8 years. He has pushed every piece of young talent that has come through the door (Carlito, Chris Masters, Shelton Benjamin, Randy Orton, Batista, The Legacy). Yet, you still want to call him a "manipulative ******** backstage"? I think your getting your initals mixed up. You must be thinking of HHH, not HBK. If HBK really has such the ego that you think he does do you really think he would allow himself to have an 2-6 record at Wrestlemania over the last eight years, or only have one title reign? There are a lot of reasons to dislike HBK. You can call him over-rated all you like, but he is not the Mr. Ego notion that some people cling too.

Oh, and before anyone brings up the Hogan match at Summerslam 2005. Are you really going to say that you wouldn't be pissed off as well when a deal that you worked out that says that there would be a rematch that you would win falls through because the other guy doesn't want to lose to you? I think at least 95% of us would have done exactly what HBK did in that match, and if you say you wouldn't, I am going to have to call Bullshit on you. If anyone is Mr. Ego in that situation it is Hulk Hogan.

 

[D-Man]

Oh, so your saying that beating Bret Hart in an hour long iron man match doesn't matter? What about beating The Undertaker in the first HIAC match, or beating HHH at Summerslam 2002, or beating Chris Jericho at Wrestlemania 19, or beating Kurt Angle in a Wrestlemania Rematch at Vengeance 2005, or winning the First Ever Elimination Chamber? Does those matches mean nothing as well? Shawn Michaels is perfectly capable of beating big name guys and legends. Oh, and just for the record, he is also capable of having the best match on the card night in and night out as evidenced by his 11 PWI Match of the Year awards. Just saying.

I love the closed-minds of the posters that seem to completely forget that there are organizations in this world that are older, more reputable, and more legendary than the WWE, WCW, and TNA. Did you ever stop to think that it's possible for wrestlers to be more well-known GLOBALLY than legends of the WWE? No, which is the reason why you're putting up an argument here.

I am curious about this claim that Royal Rumble 1997 was heavily papered. I have never heard of anything about this before. I am not going to dispute it, or agree with it until I get some evidence about this. Where did you hear about this?

You're surfing it now.

Ah, the infamous drawing argument. "Look at that time that Shawn was champion. WCW was killing them! If HBK is so good then why was WCW crushing WWE when he was champ? SEE, HBK CAN'T DRAW!" Let, me just throw out a little counter-argument to this: could it be that the reason why HBK wasn't able to pull WWE out of its stupor during that time has nothing to do with HBK's drawing power, and EVERYTHING TO DO WITH WHAT WCW WAS DOING DURING THAT TIME? I have said it before, and I will say it again, not even Stone Cold Steve Austin could have beaten WCW during that 84 week time frame. This was the time when the NWO was at the height of its popularity. This was a time when the biggest face of all time, Hulk Hogan, was actually a heel. What the hell could possibly beat seeing that? Tell me what could beat the NWO when it first started? HBK did everything he could to help the WWE, but he had just bad luck. It had nothing to do with HBK's drawing power. Now, did the WWE start winning when HBK had more bad luck and got hurt? Yes, they did, but they would have won with HBK as well. Two things happened to contribute to WWE finally beating WCW in the ratings:

1: WCW started to go overboard with the NWO, and it stopped being a cool 3 man group that everyone wanted to see, and started to become a gang of thugs that would just start beating on everyone, and it started to get boring to watch. Every Nitro would end with somebody getting beaten up and spray painted by the NWO. There was no variety. It was boring.

2: WWE started to go into the Attitude Era with Stone Cold Steve Austin but also with..oh...what was that group that HBK founded that really began the attitude era....oh....what was it....oh yeah.......DX! If it wasn't for HBK starting DX there never would have been an attitude era. Plain and simple.

So yeah, the WWE beating WCW in the ratings had nothing to do with HBK's drawing power, and everything to do with the bad decisions WCW made and the good decisions WWE made. You want to talk about HBK's drawing power? What about 80,000 people at WM 23 to see HBK vs Cena, which was put into the main event spot for a reason, or the last two Wrestlemanias. What match was the most anticipated at the last two Wrestemanias. What match sold the last two Wrestlemanias? Oh yeah, HBK vs Taker, thats right. HBK can draw. HBK can draw well.

No matter what you say here, HBK still wasn't a draw. History is history. The guy got his ass kicked when he was at the helm of the WWE along with Bret Hart. These facts are indisputable.

All it takes is one great finisher to finish a match, and all HBK needs is a second and your lights are out.

But for HBK's one move, Santo's got about 50. I'd say he's got a few more tricks up his sleeve.

Seriously? Your gonna use how a man was 15 years ago against him? That is pretty weak in my opinion. Was HBK a "manipulative ******** backstage" 15 years ago? You damn right he was. HBK has admitted time and time again that he was a complete dick back then, and he had a whole mess of problems. People would tell him what to do, and he would fight it to the death. That was his personality. I stress, that was his personality. HBK is a much better man today. HBK over the last 8 years has proven that he is a changed man. The man has had one, month long, title run in the past 8 years. He has pushed every piece of young talent that has come through the door (Carlito, Chris Masters, Shelton Benjamin, Randy Orton, Batista, The Legacy). Yet, you still want to call him a "manipulative ******** backstage"? I think your getting your initals mixed up. You must be thinking of HHH, not HBK. If HBK really has such the ego that you think he does do you really think he would allow himself to have an 2-6 record at Wrestlemania over the last eight years, or only have one title reign? There are a lot of reasons to dislike HBK. You can call him over-rated all you like, but he is not the Mr. Ego notion that some people cling too.

Oh, and before anyone brings up the Hogan match at Summerslam 2005. Are you really going to say that you wouldn't be pissed off as well when a deal that you worked out that says that there would be a rematch that you would win falls through because the other guy doesn't want to lose to you? I think at least 95% of us would have done exactly what HBK did in that match, and if you say you wouldn't, I am going to have to call Bullshit on you. If anyone is Mr. Ego in that situation it is Hulk Hogan.

Tasty didn't say that HBK's being manipulative 15 years ago was a reason not to vote for him. He just said that the only reason why HBK should win this was if the stipulation was that. It's called sarcasm.

EDIT: Big Sexy is right. My bad.

 

[Ferbian]

For the love of god.. I didn't know El Santo ever wrestled a damn 2 out of 3 match.. I guess there's a reason I never voted in the matches he was in before...

While El Santo has wrestled the majority of his matches as 2 out of 3 falls, Shawn Michaels has his share of experience here and there in multiple falls matches, while he might not have come out on the superior end of them, those were hardcore matches, Shawn Michaels won the match that didn't include hardcore rules, and this one is a singles match.

Shawn has had his past experiences of a quick roll-up, a quick pop of the sweet chin music and ultimately pinning his opponent, that's one fall to say the least for Shawn Michaels, hell it could be two falls if he succeeds with both.

Shawn Michaels has beaten bigger more tough guys than El Santo, and while Shawn has been put down as well, I have my sincere doubts El Santo didn't loose his share of matches as well.

Tastycles said though that he managed to defeat Gory Guerrero and Blue Demon, the only problem is that the most wildly known match between Blue Demon and El Santo had Blue Demon coming out on the winning side.

Shawn should win this one, simply because this is a singles match, Shawn is a tough opponent and will be able to pop a win out of this one some way, Shawn found a way to defeat almost anybody he was put in front, nothing to say that he won't be able to pull one off on Santo as well.

I have to say one thing to Tastycles post although, I do agree it's a shame that El Santo might be raped in this match, cause he's definitely a talent, but he's not gonna come out superior in this one.

 

[Jsaturn14]

I love the closed-minds of the posters that seem to completely forget that there are organizations in this world that are older, more reputable, and more legendary than the WWE, WCW, and TNA. Did you ever stop to think that it's possible for wrestlers to be more well-known GLOBALLY than legends of the WWE? No, which is the reason why you're putting up an argument here.

Of course there are other organizations that are older, more legendary, and more respected than the WWE. I never said there wasn't, and of course El Santo has beaten global legends in their prime. I never said that either. All I am saying is that HBK has beaten legends as well. Are you trying to say that guys who wrestled in the WWE aren't legends?

You're surfing it now.

Thanks for the help. Appreciate it.

No matter what you say here, HBK still wasn't a draw. History is history. The guy got his ass kicked when he was at the helm of the WWE along with Bret Hart. These facts are indisputable.

HBK is a draw, and it makes a huge difference that no matter who you put in that situation they would have never outdrew WCW as well. You put the Rock, or Stone Cold, or Cena, or HHH, or Kurt Angle, or Edge, or Jericho in that situation against WCW and they never would have beaten them as well. HBK was just the unlucky soul who had to try and do it, and while HBK drew well during his time it was nowhere near the astronomic numbers that WCW was doing. That is no fault of Shawn or his drawing power, and is just a credit to how good WCW was during that time.

But for HBK's one move, Santo's got about 50. The guy bodyslammed Andre the Giant in his prime, for cryin' out loud. I'd say he's got a few more tricks up his sleeve.

And HBK has beaten guys like The Undertaker, Diesel, and The Big Show. HBK has been around for a while, and he has got some tricks up his sleeve as well.

 

[Hulkamaniac]

Look, Shawn Michaels is a loser. Not as in he's a terrible person or anything, but historically speaking, his defining moments are losses. His only defining win is over Bret Hart. A great one, obviously, but not enough to outweigh the basic fact: Shawn Michaels is known for PUTTING ON great matches. Not winning great matches, but being in them.

Ladder Match at WM 10? He lost.

Steve Austin at WM 14? He lost.

vs. the Undertaker at consecutive WM's? He lost.

His SUPREMELY hot feud with Marty Jannetty? He lost.

vs. Hulk Hogan? He lost.

Basically, the man is born to lose to people while putting on a great show. And that's exactly what would happen againsst the biggest star in Mexican wrestling history. Let's put it this way: Shawn Michaels lost his last match, and El Santo won his, and both are exactly how they should have been.

Vote Santo.

 

[Big Sexy]

But for HBK's one move, Santo's got about 50. The guy bodyslammed Andre the Giant in his prime, for cryin' out loud. I'd say he's got a few more tricks up his sleeve.

I'm fairly certain Santo never faced Andre let alone slammed him. El Canek is who you are thinking of.

I voted HBK for the same reasons I voted for Booker T last round. I realize Santo is an cultural icon, but outside of Mexico he didn't do anything. That's not a knock against the guy I just find it hard to compare a wrestler who competed almost exclusively in Mexico with his prime being in the 40's and 50's to a guy from the US whose prime was in the 90's. I also find it hilarious that many of the same people who voted for Santo over Booker T last round are now voting for HBK.

 

[Tastycles]

Oh, so your saying that beating Bret Hart in an hour long iron man match doesn't matter? What about beating The Undertaker in the first HIAC match,

This is neither a gimmick match, nor does Kane have any beef with Santo. Taker beat Michaels in a standard match on more than one occasion

or beating HHH at Summerslam 2002,

Lost to him more times

or beating Chris Jericho at Wrestlemania 19,

Not a very big name

or beating Kurt Angle in a Wrestlemania Rematch at Vengeance 2005

Having lost at WrestleMania, when it mattered.

or winning the First Ever Elimination Chamber? Does those matches mean nothing as well?

Yes, winning a 6 man cage match means nothing in a singles match.

Shawn Michaels is perfectly capable of beating big name guys and legends.

Except for most of the time, when he loses to them.

Oh, and just for the record, he is also capable of having the best match on the card night in and night out as evidenced by his 11 PWI Match of the Year awards. Just saying.

So what? Dynamite Kid has matches about 1,000 times better than, say, Goldberg, but who wins a match between them.

I am curious about this claim that Royal Rumble 1997 was heavily papered. I have never heard of anything about this before. I am not going to dispute it, or agree with it until I get some evidence about this. Where did you hear about this?

At the Royal Rumble, Sid defended the title against Michaels. This event was one of the most "heavily papered" shows in WWF history, meaning that large numbers of tickets had to be given away to fill the arena even though it was Michaels' hometown.

...and a lot of them are papered, which means that something pretty drastic needs to hook them.[/QUOT

Ah, the infamous drawing argument. "Look at that time that Shawn was champion. WCW was killing them! If HBK is so good then why was WCW crushing WWE when he was champ? SEE, HBK CAN'T DRAW!" Let, me just throw out a little counter-argument to this: could it be that the reason why HBK wasn't able to pull WWE out of its stupor during that time has nothing to do with HBK's drawing power, and EVERYTHING TO DO WITH WHAT WCW WAS DOING DURING THAT TIME? I have said it before, and I will say it again, not even Stone Cold Steve Austin could have beaten WCW during that 84 week time frame. This was the time when the NWO was at the height of its popularity. This was a time when the biggest face of all time, Hulk Hogan, was actually a heel. What the hell could possibly beat seeing that? Tell me what could beat the NWO when it first started? HBK did everything he could to help the WWE, but he had just bad luck. It had nothing to do with HBK's drawing power. Now, did the WWE start winning when HBK had more bad luck and got hurt? Yes, they did, but they would have won with HBK as well. Two things happened to contribute to WWE finally beating WCW in the ratings:

1: WCW started to go overboard with the NWO, and it stopped being a cool 3 man group that everyone wanted to see, and started to become a gang of thugs that would just start beating on everyone, and it started to get boring to watch. Every Nitro would end with somebody getting beaten up and spray painted by the NWO. There was no variety. It was boring.

2: WWE started to go into the Attitude Era with Stone Cold Steve Austin but also with..oh...what was that group that HBK founded that really began the attitude era....oh....what was it....oh yeah.......DX! If it wasn't for HBK starting DX there never would have been an attitude era. Plain and simple.

So yeah, the WWE beating WCW in the ratings had nothing to do with HBK's drawing power, and everything to do with the bad decisions WCW made and the good decisions WWE made.

This would be valid if a) WCW's dominance hadn't started before the nWo angle. b) The nWo weren't still popular when Michaels lost the title. Are you really trying to suggest that WCW's dominance was solely down to their product, despite the fact it started four weeks after Michaels became champion and ended one week after he left had absolutely nothing to do with the fact that the people didn't want to see him? He has to be the unluckiest guy ever!

You want to talk about HBK's drawing power? What about 80,000 people at WM 23 to see HBK vs Cena, which was put into the main event spot for a reason, or the last two Wrestlemanias. What match was the most anticipated at the last two Wrestemanias. What match sold the last two Wrestlemanias? Oh yeah, HBK vs Taker, thats right. HBK can draw. HBK can draw well.

You can't say what sold WrestleMania 25, there was equal booking given to Cena vs Edge vs Show and Orton vs HHH. Cena was the draw at 23, and WrestleMania 26, the one where Michaels' retirement was the focus, was the worst selling Mania for 7 years.

All it takes is one great finisher to finish a match, and all HBK needs is a second and your lights are out.

Not in a 2 falls match. Michaels has one way to close out a match, and it is an easily scouted move. Santo has multiple ways to finish a match, and regularly does.

Seriously? Your gonna use how a man was 15 years ago against him? That is pretty weak in my opinion. Was HBK a "manipulative ******** backstage" 15 years ago? You damn right he was. HBK has admitted time and time again that he was a complete dick back then, and he had a whole mess of problems. People would tell him what to do, and he would fight it to the death. That was his personality. I stress, that was his personality. HBK is a much better man today. HBK over the last 8 years has proven that he is a changed man. The man has had one, month long, title run in the past 8 years. He has pushed every piece of young talent that has come through the door (Carlito, Chris Masters, Shelton Benjamin, Randy Orton, Batista, The Legacy). Yet, you still want to call him a "manipulative ******** backstage"? I think your getting your initals mixed up. You must be thinking of HHH, not HBK. If HBK really has such the ego that you think he does do you really think he would allow himself to have an 2-6 record at Wrestlemania over the last eight years, or only have one title reign? There are a lot of reasons to dislike HBK. You can call him over-rated all you like, but he is not the Mr. Ego notion that some people cling too.

Oh, and before anyone brings up the Hogan match at Summerslam 2005. Are you really going to say that you wouldn't be pissed off as well when a deal that you worked out that says that there would be a rematch that you would win falls through because the other guy doesn't want to lose to you? I think at least 95% of us would have done exactly what HBK did in that match, and if you say you wouldn't, I am going to have to call Bullshit on you. If anyone is Mr. Ego in that situation it is Hulk Hogan.

Interpreting sarcasm isn't your strong point, is it?

Of course there are other organizations that are older, more legendary, and more respected than the WWE. I never said there wasn't, and of course El Santo has beaten global legends in their prime. I never said that either. All I am saying is that HBK has beaten legends as well. Are you trying to say that guys who wrestled in the WWE aren't legends?

The ones that HBK has beaten more than he has lost to aren't? Who is that anyway? An ageing Vader and a pre-prime Mick Foley. I honestly can't think of anyone else, and they aren't legends.

HBK is a draw, and it makes a huge difference that no matter who you put in that situation they would have never outdrew WCW as well. You put the Rock, or Stone Cold, or Cena

Well, they would. Cena is a .5 ratings swing guy, something that nobody else in professional wrestling can claim to be, and Austin and Rock outdrew WCW when they had the same creative team and wrestlers that they did when Michaels was there. Austin started outdrawing them the week after Michaels left for fuck sake! Either April 1998 was when WCW got shit all of a sudden, or you are talking out of your arse.

, or HHH, or Kurt Angle, or Edge, or Jericho in that situation against WCW and they never would have beaten them as well.

None of those guys are draws either. HHH can be in a hot feud, but the other three are not. That is why they have never been the face of the brand they are on, and why Angle had zero effect on the TNA rating.

HBK was just the unlucky soul who had to try and do it, and while HBK drew well during his time it was nowhere near the astronomic numbers that WCW was doing. That is no fault of Shawn or his drawing power, and is just a credit to how good WCW was during that time.

Except it is. Michaels was an awful draw, an it is as simple as that. When Nitro wasn't on the air, Raw with him at the helm was drawing between mid threes and fours. Austin was drawing that against Nitro within two months of Michaels leaving.

And HBK has beaten guys like The Undertaker, Diesel, and The Big Show. HBK has been around for a while, and he has got some tricks up his sleeve as well.

Taker in gimmick matches, Diesel who beat him when it mattered and The Big Show, the fucking epitome of main event jobber.

While El Santo has wrestled the majority of his matches as 2 out of 3 falls, Shawn Michaels has his share of experience here and there in multiple falls matches, while he might not have come out on the superior end of them, those were hardcore matches, Shawn Michaels won the match that didn't include hardcore rules, and this one is a singles match.

What? He drew with Bret Hart and Kurt Angle in iron man matches, which are the closest thing to this that he has been in. Santo won exactly this match all the time.

Shawn has had his past experiences of a quick roll-up, a quick pop of the sweet chin music and ultimately pinning his opponent, that's one fall to say the least for Shawn Michaels, hell it could be two falls if he succeeds with both.

But anyone can do a roll up. Santo could use any one o his finishers - which include top rope moves and submission holds, as well as the generic ones. He has the greater arsenal.

Shawn Michaels has beaten bigger more tough guys than El Santo, and while Shawn has been put down as well, I have my sincere doubts El Santo didn't loose his share of matches as well.

Bigger? No shit, Santo is 5'9". Tougher? Not so sure. Santo pretty much introduced toughness. In Mexico, heels wrestle a much more brawler based offense, which is how he started. However, his toughness won the hearts and minds of his audience and then he became a tecnico, which uses a high flying style.

As for losses. Sure, Santo lost matches, but this was very rare. We're talking like annually, if that. He certainly avenged all of his defeats, and I don't think anyone has a winning record against him.

Tastycles said though that he managed to defeat Gory Guerrero and Blue Demon, the only problem is that the most wildly known match between Blue Demon and El Santo had Blue Demon coming out on the winning side.

Sort of. Santo did put Blue Demon over initially, because that's what good wrestlers do, but he ended up getting the better of him. Santo took Blue Demon, who had a sort of Jeff Hardy type popularity and turned him into the second biggest name ever with a good feud. Michaels never did anything remotely as selfless in his entire career, and don't anybody dare bring up Shelton Benjamin.

Shawn should win this one, simply because this is a singles match, Shawn is a tough opponent and will be able to pop a win out of this one some way, Shawn found a way to defeat almost anybody he was put in front, nothing to say that he won't be able to pull one off on Santo as well.

Yes, he found a way to beat anyone he was infront of in a singles match except Hulk Hogan, Undertaker, John Cena, Triple H... Yeah, this isn't looking good for Michaels.

I also find it hilarious that many of the same people who voted for Santo over Booker T last round are now voting for HBK.

Exactly. There's nothing Michaels has over Booker T in terms of credentials.If Booker loses to Santo, so does Shawn.

 

[Via Armbar]

Shawn Michaels should lose this match for a multitude of reasons, but fortunately, this match has come during my exam period so I do not have the time to repeatedly post in this thread and get pissed off at the outcome when the inevitable happens. There is pretty much no reason Michaels should win this:

Michaels, Santo and legends: A history

Hulk Hogan, The Undertaker, Steve Austin and John Cena. All legends, and all of them have quite routinely dispatched of Michaels. Even if you go to the next tier of greats, Kurt Angle, Diesel and Triple H are there to confirm what I just said. Michaels does not wrestle well against, well anybody really. In fact, the only big match singles win of his career came against Bret Hart, another wrestler who has a patchy record.

Santo on the other hand was able to beat Blue Demon and Gory Guerrero, who were basically the height of greatness at the time when he did it. He went on to beat countless other luchadors for several decades. In terms of beating big named players, Santo absolutely has this one.

So you're saying that beating other men who only were relevant in Mexico is greater than beating a man who was loved in many parts of the world? Many consider the second match between Michaels and Angle to be just as good if not better than their match at Mania. He beat Triple H twice before Hunter got one victory. Coming back after half a decade to beat one of the best in the world is an amazing show of skill. Beating him and four other men to win a world championship is big as well. I'm sort of missing these high profile victories that Shawn has never won...

Bret Hart was loved in Canada, American and England among other places. What about Santo's wins? Were they over guys that had that kind of influence around the world, or only in Mexico?

Homefield advantage

Something that will no doubt be brought up is "If this match was in Mexico then..." Well, no it isn't, true, but Mexicans have done well in WWE. Indeed, Eddie Guerrero and Rey Mysterio are booked as Mexicans and were both world champion inside the last five or six years.

So... you say that Michaels beating Triple H, Kurt Angle and Bret Hart among others isn't notable. Then you go on to compare Santo to Guerrero and Mysterio, two wrestlers that many people claim only won world titles because they were in the right place and the right time. Don't see how that comparison works in your favor.

So I think attacking Santo from this point of view is a non-starter. What about looking at Michaels from an American point of view. Well, at the absolute height of his relevance he won the world title in San Antonio at Royal Rumble 1997 in front of screaming fans, right? Wrong. That event is notorious for being one of the most heavily papered events ever and hardly anyone there paid to get in. Uh-oh. More on that later, but if Michaels can't drum up support in his home town, then what hope does he have when he is 1,300 miles away?

Shawn Michaels has more support in America than Santo does here, period. There really is no argument for that. You can use a low point in wrestlings popularity to try and show that Michaels wasn't a draw. Fact is, if Santo were to headline Mania then it would have been an epic failure in turnout. What's that? It's not fair because Santo isn't a known entity here? Of course it's not fair, same as your reasoning of Shawn not being a draw. At Shawn's lowest, he still draws more in America than Santo could at his peak. FACT.

Drawing

Absolutely no argument here. When big named foreign stars wrestle in the US, they're quite well watched. If we're talking about when Santo was in his prime, the comparison would be people like Enrique Torres and particularly Primo Carnera, an Italian who drew in the north of the country.

Michaels never drew anywhere. You know that big 84 week that everyone always says Nitro had over Raw? It maps on almost perfectly to Michaels' career. In fact it ended literally the week after he disappeared. Coincidence? No. Wrestling fans have never wanted to see him.

You ask anybody, from either of these two mens prime, who Carnera or Torres was and you'll get the same answer almost every time. Good move bringing up two wrestlers that nobody has ever really known or cared about. People think that obscure names must be important when in reality they have no merit in this conversation. You're speaking of men who's only fame (and I use that term incredibly loosely) came from the states. Carnera was far more noted as a boxer than a wrestler. Not to mention anything he drew was because he was huge, a freakshow attraction. Not because he was foreign. That size advantage is something that Santo doesn't have.

Torres was slightly more decorated than Carnera. He had titles for the NWA multiple times, something to be noted for sure. The thing is was he was born in California. That is an American state for those who don't know. He made a name for himself here, not Mexico as Santo did. Again, he has very little relevance in this argument.

Moves

Michaels actually has a more limited moveset than John Cena, or has done in recent years anyway. Santo is a luchador, so by definition, has a lot more flowing variety in what he does. This shouldn't really be about how many moves they do though, it should be about how many moves they have that can put people away, and Santo has more finishers, which is important when we come to our next criteria.

Obviously American styles and Lucha styles of wrestling are very different. Michaels has said before many times that he enjoyed the high flying styles of luchadores and tried to incorporate that into his style. He can deal with Santo's style. If we're talking about finishers, if my memory serves me correctly he had a flying headbutt. Sounds like something Shawn can easily avoid. Wait, there's also the clutch he used. Shawn may not be the strongest guy, but he's just as strong as Santo is and can be just as technical. There's nothing that leads me to believe that he couldn't avoid and or escape the camel clutch. If he had maybe a smoother transition finisher that could come out of nowhere to put someone away, you'd have a case. Unfortunately for him, Sweet Chin Music is that move.

Match type

Santo spent his entire career winning 2 out of 3 falls matches, because that's what every single match in Mexico was and still is for the most part. Michaels has had two multiple falls matches, winning one in extra time and drawing the other. That kind of experience just isn't enough. I'm sure he'll be able to get a superkick in at some stage, probably for a pinfall, but then what has he got? Nothing. Undertaker put him down by attrition, and Santo who has 3 or 4 signature moves too should be able to do the same thing.

You've got a point here Tasty. The thing is, the luchadore matches are often shorter and involved multiple wrestlers. This match doesn't. Could he outlast Michaels? No doubt he could get a pinfall. After that though, could he last with a man that has had some very long, brutal matches? Could he avoid another Sweet Chin Music, or a flying elbow or a sharpshooter? Not as easily as Shawn can avoid a camel clutch and flying headbutt. Any other ''signature moves'' you think Santo has, Shawn has done. We're also talking about Lucha from the 40's and 50's; do not confuse it with Lucha from more recent times. It was much more grounded and grappling based as opposed to the acrobatics people associate it with today.

I really could go on, but I promised myself I'd stop at the time it is now. Santo should win this match, whatever your criteria, unless it is "be a manipulative ******** backstage", so I urge you, if you haven't already voted Michaels, to vote Santo so at least he won't get a raping he most definitely doesn't deserve.

I didn't know being an asshole was criteria that won you a match. If anything, his pull should have him winning this match. I don't want to take anything away from Santo; everything that Tasty said is true of him. He was a true pioneer. But so were so many wrestlers that Michaels would beat. Don't let them fool you; just because it's a foreign name to you and people tell you how important he was to Mexican wrestling, doesn't mean he meant shit anywhere else.

 

[Ferbian]

What? He drew with Bret Hart and Kurt Angle in iron man matches, which are the closest thing to this that he has been in. Santo won exactly this match all the time.

You're right, my bad, the hardcore match I was thinking of, is Shawn Michaels vs Triple H, and sadly I have to admit as well that Shawn lost that, I remembered it wrong, don't know why I didn't edit my post although, I'll give you this one.

But anyone can do a roll up. Santo could use any one o his finishers - which include top rope moves and submission holds, as well as the generic ones. He has the greater arsenal.

The only downside to this is that Shawn Michaels is of a completely different era, Shawn has learned to either evade, or to hold out against those moves (from the look of Wikipedia his finishing moves were: Camel Clutch and a Diving Headbutt) which I know is an argument I've used before for different opponents for both Kurt Angle (vs Nick) and Shawn Michaels (vs Dory) but it remains true in this one, while El Santo might have wrestled the majority of matches on a regular basic as 2 out of 3 falls matches, he wrestled an era where flashier and more impactful moves weren't being used (now excuse me in case I'm wrong about the impactful moves, but I believe Lou Thesz were using suplex's and powerbombs as finishers and signature moves back then, moves that won't keep a guy down anymore, unless you're Batista or Kevin Nash)

Bigger? No shit, Santo is 5'9". Tougher? Not so sure. Santo pretty much introduced toughness. In Mexico, heels wrestle a much more brawler based offense, which is how he started. However, his toughness won the hearts and minds of his audience and then he became a tecnico, which uses a high flying style.

No no I'm not saying Shawn beat opponents that were tougher than El Santo, I'm saying Shawn beat opponents that are tougher than the ones El Santo probably defeated during his period of wrestling, guy's are able to hold to a lot more as of today, we see suplex's all the time now, yet none of them keeps a guy down, we see top rope moves, which doesn't keep people down (unless it's a starship pain, shooting star press or frog splash).

And let's not forget, Shawn can very well fight high flying styles himself, and therefore shouldn't have much of a problem thriving in El Santo's environment, let's not forget the styles that might have seemed originating back then, are elder moves that people survive now, remember that Shawn Michaels defeated Rey Mysterio, one of the current tough guy high flyers.

As for losses. Sure, Santo lost matches, but this was very rare. We're talking like annually, if that. He certainly avenged all of his defeats, and I don't think anyone has a winning record against him.

Very well, Shawn avenged his share of defeats as well, against Bret Hart, against Undertaker (or well more like Undertaker avenging his losses, but he's still winning against him) Triple H, the list goes on of guys that Shawn has gotten back at, who could very well rip El Santo a part.

Sort of. Santo did put Blue Demon over initially, because that's what good wrestlers do, but he ended up getting the better of him. Santo took Blue Demon, who had a sort of Jeff Hardy type popularity and turned him into the second biggest name ever with a good feud. Michaels never did anything remotely as selfless in his entire career, and don't anybody dare bring up Shelton Benjamin.

Sure, and Shawn has put over endless of people, so I'm guessing that should equalize the fact that he lost matches here and there to future stars to make them look good?

And I'm not gonna bring up Shelton Benjamin, except to mention that I'm not going to.

Shawn Michaels has put over people to a certain extend, or wrestled guys to solidify them more firmly, guys like John Cena who he solidified, wrestling Chris Jericho (while Shawn got out of the feud on the superior edge, he made Jericho look good) and that list continues just as well as the list of people he got back at.

Yes, he found a way to beat anyone he was infront of in a singles match except Hulk Hogan, Undertaker, John Cena, Triple H... Yeah, this isn't looking good for Michaels.

That may very well be true, but Shawn has still managed to come out on top against Triple H and Undertaker in places where they proved to thrive very well, which would only help Shawn in this you could imagine, due to the fact that Santo thrives in 2 out of 3 matches, where as Triple H thrives in Elimination Chamber matches, and potentially Last man standing matches, and Undertaker in Hell in a Cell and Casket Matches.

I shall be looking forward to your reply Tastycles, always enjoy a good debate.

On an off note, I would rep you Armbar, but need to spread.

 

[Tastycles]

The only downside to this is that Shawn Michaels is of a completely different era, Shawn has learned to either evade, or to hold out against those moves (from the look of Wikipedia his finishing moves were: Camel Clutch and a Diving Headbutt) which I know is an argument I've used before for different opponents for both Kurt Angle (vs Nick) and Shawn Michaels (vs Dory) but it remains true in this one, while El Santo might have wrestled the majority of matches on a regular basic as 2 out of 3 falls matches, he wrestled an era where flashier and more impactful moves weren't being used (now excuse me in case I'm wrong about the impactful moves, but I believe Lou Thesz were using suplex's and powerbombs as finishers and signature moves back then, moves that won't keep a guy down anymore, unless you're Batista or Kevin Nash)

This is why you shouldn't listen to wikipedia. His diving headbutt was a somersault headbutt, far flashier, and far more like a modern day finisher. As for the camel clutch, Michaels has lost to far older and far less flamboyant submission holds. Lucha libre was moves based and has never resembled real fighting like old school American wrestling.

No no I'm not saying Shawn beat opponents that were tougher than El Santo, I'm saying Shawn beat opponents that are tougher than the ones El Santo probably defeated during his period of wrestling, guy's are able to hold to a lot more as of today, we see suplex's all the time now, yet none of them keeps a guy down, we see top rope moves, which doesn't keep people down (unless it's a starship pain, shooting star press or frog splash).

Have you ever seen lucha libre? I'm guessing no.

And let's not forget, Shawn can very well fight high flying styles himself, and therefore shouldn't have much of a problem thriving in El Santo's environment, let's not forget the styles that might have seemed originating back then, are elder moves that people survive now, remember that Shawn Michaels defeated Rey Mysterio, one of the current tough guy high flyers.

Except Rey Mysterio is a lot smaller than Santo, and doesn't have the same ground work. Ever seen Mysterio win by submission? No.

Very well, Shawn avenged his share of defeats as well, against Bret Hart, against Undertaker (or well more like Undertaker avenging his losses, but he's still winning against him) Triple H, the list goes on of guys that Shawn has gotten back at, who could very well rip El Santo a part.

He beat Triple H and Taker in gimmick matches, the latter only with assistance. The list doesn't really go on much further does it? He's beaten one guy clean when it mattered, Bret Hart.

Sure, and Shawn has put over endless of people, so I'm guessing that should equalize the fact that he lost matches here and there to future stars to make them look good?

No he didn't. Name one person who's in a better place now than they were before they feuded with Michaels. Santo lost to one guy, and did it in a fashion that made the guy as popular as he was, before then going on to beat him regularly.

Shawn Michaels has put over people to a certain extend, or wrestled guys to solidify them more firmly, guys like John Cena who he solidified, wrestling Chris Jericho (while Shawn got out of the feud on the superior edge, he made Jericho look good) and that list continues just as well as the list of people he got back at.

So Michaels elevated the guy who beat The Rock and Austin in one night, after he had done that? No, don't think so. And how do you elevate someone who has been World Champion for a year? Oh yeah, you can't.

That may very well be true, but Shawn has still managed to come out on top against Triple H and Undertaker in places where they proved to thrive very well, which would only help Shawn in this you could imagine, due to the fact that Santo thrives in 2 out of 3 matches, where as Triple H thrives in Elimination Chamber matches, and potentially Last man standing matches, and Undertaker in Hell in a Cell and Casket Matches.

Undertaker always loses his signature matches, and drawing with Triple H in a LMS match doesn't mean he can beat Santo in his signature match.

I shall be looking forward to your reply Tastycles, always enjoy a good debate.

I probably won't reply after this until at least tomorrow night.

So you're saying that beating other men who only were relevant in Mexico is greater than beating a man who was loved in many parts of the world? Many consider the second match between Michaels and Angle to be just as good if not better than their match at Mania. He beat Triple H twice before Hunter got one victory. Coming back after half a decade to beat one of the best in the world is an amazing show of skill. Beating him and four other men to win a world championship is big as well. I'm sort of missing these high profile victories that Shawn has never won...

Wins in gimmick matches are irrelevant here, because the method of winning it totally different. All of those people mentioned beat Michaels more than he beat them in straight up singles contests.

Bret Hart was loved in Canada, American and England among other places. What about Santo's wins? Were they over guys that had that kind of influence around the world, or only in Mexico?

Well, just about every small wrestler has got lucha libre as an influence for their style, including Michaels, so we probably shouldn't go there influence wise. He beat Gory Guerrero who wrestled in the US, and Hans Schmidt who was a big heel in the US too, he beat El Solitario who had quite a good run in Japan, Mil Mascaras who had decent runs in the US and Japan and he himself wrestled in Texas on the same card as the Funks a few times. Far more internationally acomplished than Michaels.

So... you say that Michaels beating Triple H, Kurt Angle and Bret Hart among others isn't notable. Then you go on to compare Santo to Guerrero and Mysterio, two wrestlers that many people claim only won world titles because they were in the right place and the right time. Don't see how that comparison works in your favor.

The comparison is that two fairly insignificant luchadors in the grand scheme of things suceeded in the US. It was a counter argument, before anyone made the original argument, that luchadors don't do well there, which is bull shit.

Shawn Michaels has more support in America than Santo does here, period. There really is no argument for that. You can use a low point in wrestlings popularity to try and show that Michaels wasn't a draw. Fact is, if Santo were to headline Mania then it would have been an epic failure in turnout.

Actually, I think you're wrong. Luchadors traditionally have a big following amongst hispanic viewers for obvious reasons. One only need to see the exposure given to Rey and Eddie on Smackdown as evidence for that, I have seen this point made on news sites as it being the WWE policy to put Hispanic stars on Smackdown. Chicago is 27% Hispanic, which is a fairly big pool for Santo to draw from. I actually think that if you put him in front of a contemporary audience he'd fair well. Indeed, he drew thousands to Texas, and they even paid!

What's that? It's not fair because Santo isn't a known entity here? Of course it's not fair, same as your reasoning of Shawn not being a draw. At Shawn's lowest, he still draws more in America than Santo could at his peak. FACT.

In most of America, I agree, in a city with a high Hispanic demo, I'm not so sure.

You ask anybody, from either of these two mens prime, who Carnera or Torres was and you'll get the same answer almost every time. Good move bringing up two wrestlers that nobody has ever really known or cared about. People think that obscure names must be important when in reality they have no merit in this conversation. You're speaking of men who's only fame (and I use that term incredibly loosely) came from the states. Carnera was far more noted as a boxer than a wrestler. Not to mention anything he drew was because he was huge, a freakshow attraction. Not because he was foreign. That size advantage is something that Santo doesn't have.

Torres was slightly more decorated than Carnera. He had titles for the NWA multiple times, something to be noted for sure. The thing is was he was born in California. That is an American state for those who don't know. He made a name for himself here, not Mexico as Santo did. Again, he has very little relevance in this argument.

It absolutely does. Where they were born is irrelevant, what matters is where the audience think they came from. People like Hans Schmidt and The Sheik were booked as foreigners who were here to take the title, and got huge heel heat. Santo, who spent much of his career as a heel would no doubt have had the same effect.

Obviously American styles and Lucha styles of wrestling are very different. Michaels has said before many times that he enjoyed the high flying styles of luchadores and tried to incorporate that into his style. He can deal with Santo's style. If we're talking about finishers, if my memory serves me correctly he had a flying headbutt.

Somersault headbutt.

Sounds like something Shawn can easily avoid.

Don't think diving headbutt, think Swanton bomb, because that is what it looks like. That has put Michaels away:

Wait, there's also the clutch he used. Shawn may not be the strongest guy, but he's just as strong as Santo is and can be just as technical. There's nothing that leads me to believe that he couldn't avoid and or escape the camel clutch. If he had maybe a smoother transition finisher that could come out of nowhere to put someone away, you'd have a case. Unfortunately for him, Sweet Chin Music is that move.

Well, he didn't power out of Benoit's moves, and has submitted to fairly basic submission moves in the past.

As for quickness, his camel clutch only needs you to be on your front for a second as can be seen here:

[YOUTUBE]_mgmpRZ1bQY[/YOUTUBE]

We're seeing that Santo's moves, or similar ones, have already beaten Michaels. When they are added to the headscissor submission holds and flying clotheslines of Santo, it's pretty clear that Santo has more to offer.

You've got a point here Tasty. The thing is, the luchadore matches are often shorter and involved multiple wrestlers.

Not so much in Santo's day. There are a lot of tag matches, but the main guys always had one on one matches. As for match length, that's unfounded. Lucha main events, particularlymask matches, of which he had plenty, were often long affairs.

This match doesn't. Could he outlast Michaels? No doubt he could get a pinfall. After that though, could he last with a man that has had some very long, brutal matches?

Please don't assume that Santo wasn't used to brutal matches, there were plenty of rule free matches in his day. And I've addressed length of match.

Could he avoid another Sweet Chin Music, or a flying elbow or a sharpshooter? Not as easily as Shawn can avoid a camel clutch and flying headbutt. Any other ''signature moves'' you think Santo has, Shawn has done. We're also talking about Lucha from the 40's and 50's; do not confuse it with Lucha from more recent times. It was much more grounded and grappling based as opposed to the acrobatics people associate it with today.

I've never seen Michaels do springboard moves, something Santo does pretty regularly. I've never seen Michaels do a Swanton bomb. I've never seen him to a somersault suicide dive. I've never seen him do a huracanrana into an armbar. I've seen Santo do all of those things. Lucha libre may be more flips nowadays, but there is still a hell of a lot there that Michaels couldn't do or deal with.

I didn't know being an asshole was criteria that won you a match. If anything, his pull should have him winning this match. I don't want to take anything away from Santo; everything that Tasty said is true of him. He was a true pioneer. But so were so many wrestlers that Michaels would beat. Don't let them fool you; just because it's a foreign name to you and people tell you how important he was to Mexican wrestling, doesn't mean he meant shit anywhere else.

Except there wouldn't be wrestlers like Michaels without him. Seriously, the smaller wrestlers owe their style to the lucha libre pioneers like Santo. To say he didn't mean anything is straight up ignorant. To say that he didn't mean shit in his time is wrong. He made wrestling popular in Mexico, drew reasonably in the US, and became a cultural icon the likes of which nobody else has in the history of wrestling. Did he headline WrestleMania? No. Did he change the landscape of wrestling? Absolutely.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

So you're saying that beating other men who only were relevant in Mexico is greater than beating a man who was loved in many parts of the world? Many consider the second match between Michaels and Angle to be just as good if not better than their match at Mania. He beat Triple H twice before Hunter got one victory. Coming back after half a decade to beat one of the best in the world is an amazing show of skill. Beating him and four other men to win a world championship is big as well. I'm sort of missing these high profile victories that Shawn has never won...

Bret Hart was loved in Canada, American and England among other places. What about Santo's wins? Were they over guys that had that kind of influence around the world, or only in Mexico?



So... you say that Michaels beating Triple H, Kurt Angle and Bret Hart among others isn't notable. Then you go on to compare Santo to Guerrero and Mysterio, two wrestlers that many people claim only won world titles because they were in the right place and the right time. Don't see how that comparison works in your favor.



Shawn Michaels has more support in America than Santo does here, period. There really is no argument for that. You can use a low point in wrestlings popularity to try and show that Michaels wasn't a draw. Fact is, if Santo were to headline Mania then it would have been an epic failure in turnout. What's that? It's not fair because Santo isn't a known entity here? Of course it's not fair, same as your reasoning of Shawn not being a draw. At Shawn's lowest, he still draws more in America than Santo could at his peak. FACT.



You ask anybody, from either of these two mens prime, who Carnera or Torres was and you'll get the same answer almost every time. Good move bringing up two wrestlers that nobody has ever really known or cared about. People think that obscure names must be important when in reality they have no merit in this conversation. You're speaking of men who's only fame (and I use that term incredibly loosely) came from the states. Carnera was far more noted as a boxer than a wrestler. Not to mention anything he drew was because he was huge, a freakshow attraction. Not because he was foreign. That size advantage is something that Santo doesn't have.

Torres was slightly more decorated than Carnera. He had titles for the NWA multiple times, something to be noted for sure. The thing is was he was born in California. That is an American state for those who don't know. He made a name for himself here, not Mexico as Santo did. Again, he has very little relevance in this argument.



Obviously American styles and Lucha styles of wrestling are very different. Michaels has said before many times that he enjoyed the high flying styles of luchadores and tried to incorporate that into his style. He can deal with Santo's style. If we're talking about finishers, if my memory serves me correctly he had a flying headbutt. Sounds like something Shawn can easily avoid. Wait, there's also the clutch he used. Shawn may not be the strongest guy, but he's just as strong as Santo is and can be just as technical. There's nothing that leads me to believe that he couldn't avoid and or escape the camel clutch. If he had maybe a smoother transition finisher that could come out of nowhere to put someone away, you'd have a case. Unfortunately for him, Sweet Chin Music is that move.



You've got a point here Tasty. The thing is, the luchadore matches are often shorter and involved multiple wrestlers. This match doesn't. Could he outlast Michaels? No doubt he could get a pinfall. After that though, could he last with a man that has had some very long, brutal matches? Could he avoid another Sweet Chin Music, or a flying elbow or a sharpshooter? Not as easily as Shawn can avoid a camel clutch and flying headbutt. Any other ''signature moves'' you think Santo has, Shawn has done. We're also talking about Lucha from the 40's and 50's; do not confuse it with Lucha from more recent times. It was much more grounded and grappling based as opposed to the acrobatics people associate it with today.



I didn't know being an asshole was criteria that won you a match. If anything, his pull should have him winning this match. I don't want to take anything away from Santo; everything that Tasty said is true of him. He was a true pioneer. But so were so many wrestlers that Michaels would beat. Don't let them fool you; just because it's a foreign name to you and people tell you how important he was to Mexican wrestling, doesn't mean he meant shit anywhere else.

Beating HHH after retiring for four years shows that HHH wanted to put Shawn over because nobody thought he would have kept wrestling for almost eight years. That's the only one-on-one win he has against HHH. Shawn is in the same boat as Flair as they are only known within the wrestling world. Ask the average person who HBK is and they will have no clue. Santo is known more globally than HBK can hope to dream. When has his flying elbow and Sharpshooter ever won matches? HBK is a natural-born loser plain and simple. He may put on a great match but more often than not he loses them.

Don't let them fool you; just because it's a household name to you and people tell you how important he was to American wrestling, doesn't mean he meant shit anywhere else.

See what I did there.

 

[TwistofRKO]

I don't care if other people wanting to watch them, I care about who I want to watch, and that's HBK. I don't even like him that much, but the guy is outstanding. Take your comic book hero, give me Mr. Wrestlemania. HBK is the greatest performer in wrestling history. He's succeeded as a heel, as a face, in a stable, and has put on amazing feuds.

Really, who did YOU enjoy more? Vote for HBK.

 

[Ferbian]

This is why you shouldn't listen to wikipedia. His diving headbutt was a somersault headbutt, far flashier, and far more like a modern day finisher. As for the camel clutch, Michaels has lost to far older and far less flamboyant submission holds. Lucha libre was moves based and has never resembled real fighting like old school American wrestling.

I see, well that is definitely a far flashier thing, but that doesn't mean that Shawn doesn't know a way to avoid it, he's avoided flashy moves before, high flying moves etc. why should this be any different and not just leave us watching El Santo crawl into a little shell of pain like Benoit whenever he'd hit a headbutt or miss one?

Have you ever seen lucha libre? I'm guessing no.

Only some WCW stuff and Rey Mysterio WWE stuff I must admit.
But if you're implying that purely because I mentioned suplexes and powerbombs that I don't know what Lucha Libre is? I know just fine what it is, very high flying styles, and I really don't see that as an excuse for Shawn Michaels to automatically loose this one, he has his experience with guys like Rey Mysterio, a very skilled lucha libre wrestler.

Except Rey Mysterio is a lot smaller than Santo, and doesn't have the same ground work. Ever seen Mysterio win by submission? No.

That's very true, but that doesn't make Rey Mysterio as a lucha libre any less of a legit victory, but I have to admit I recall as of late Rey Mysterio have been sporting a Dragon Sleeper hold against guys like Luke Gallows.

He beat Triple H and Taker in gimmick matches, the latter only with assistance. The list doesn't really go on much further does it? He's beaten one guy clean when it mattered, Bret Hart.

I'm sorry to tell you Tastycles you're forgetting Shawn's little victory over Kurt Angle at vengeance 2005, singles match, didn't get any help, countered the Angle Lock (a submission hold mind you) and hit the Sweet Chin Music for the 3 count.

No he didn't. Name one person who's in a better place now than they were before they feuded with Michaels. Santo lost to one guy, and did it in a fashion that made the guy as popular as he was, before then going on to beat him regularly.

Stone Cold Steve Austin, there's your guy, but other than that, Shawn might not have put anybody into the main event scene properly, but he did make some of the main event guys look great at Wrestlemania, and Triple H in general between 2002 and 2004.

So Michaels elevated the guy who beat The Rock and Austin in one night, after he had done that? No, don't think so. And how do you elevate someone who has been World Champion for a year? Oh yeah, you can't.

That may very well be true, but Chris Jericho was pretty much bumped down to the mid-card upper mid-card after that title reign, and ultimately a feud with Shawn Michaels did just fine for him, ultimately keeping Jericho to remain legitimate, and putting on one of the better matches of the decade (from my own opinion)
And to John Cena, you're gonna tell me that while John might have won at Wrestlemania's before, that it doesn't mean anything winning over Mr Wrestlemania, and while Shawn is a easy defeat at Wrestlemania on the statistics, he's a tough fight to go through with his 20-30 minute matches and the multitude of finishers he can withstand during Wrestlemania.

Undertaker always loses his signature matches, and drawing with Triple H in a LMS match doesn't mean he can beat Santo in his signature match.

That as well may very well be true, although Undertaker doesn't always loose his signature matches, he has a winning streak in Hell in a Cell to say the least.
And a draw with Triple H is still worth the brag, seeing as even though Triple H as well has suffered his defeats at the hands of various WWE wrestlers, he's also beaten every single guy at some point.

I probably won't reply after this until at least tomorrow night.

That's alright Tasty, I shall be awaiting it.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

I see, well that is definitely a far flashier thing, but that doesn't mean that Shawn doesn't know a way to avoid it, he's avoided flashy moves before, high flying moves etc. why should this be any different and not just leave us watching El Santo crawl into a little shell of pain like Benoit whenever he'd hit a headbutt or miss one?



Only some WCW stuff and Rey Mysterio WWE stuff I must admit.
But if you're implying that purely because I mentioned suplexes and powerbombs that I don't know what Lucha Libre is? I know just fine what it is, very high flying styles, and I really don't see that as an excuse for Shawn Michaels to automatically loose this one, he has his experience with guys like Rey Mysterio, a very skilled lucha libre wrestler.



That's very true, but that doesn't make Rey Mysterio as a lucha libre any less of a legit victory, but I have to admit I recall as of late Rey Mysterio have been sporting a Dragon Sleeper hold against guys like Luke Gallows.



I'm sorry to tell you Tastycles you're forgetting Shawn's little victory over Kurt Angle at vengeance 2005, singles match, didn't get any help, countered the Angle Lock (a submission hold mind you) and hit the Sweet Chin Music for the 3 count.



Stone Cold Steve Austin, there's your guy, but other than that, Shawn might not have put anybody into the main event scene properly, but he did make some of the main event guys look great at Wrestlemania, and Triple H in general between 2002 and 2004.



That may very well be true, but Chris Jericho was pretty much bumped down to the mid-card upper mid-card after that title reign, and ultimately a feud with Shawn Michaels did just fine for him, ultimately keeping Jericho to remain legitimate, and putting on one of the better matches of the decade (from my own opinion)
And to John Cena, you're gonna tell me that while John might have won at Wrestlemania's before, that it doesn't mean anything winning over Mr Wrestlemania, and while Shawn is a easy defeat at Wrestlemania on the statistics, he's a tough fight to go through with his 20-30 minute matches and the multitude of finishers he can withstand during Wrestlemania.



That as well may very well be true, although Undertaker doesn't always loose his signature matches, he has a winning streak in Hell in a Cell to say the least.
And a draw with Triple H is still worth the brag, seeing as even though Triple H as well has suffered his defeats at the hands of various WWE wrestlers, he's also beaten every single guy at some point.



That's alright Tasty, I shall be awaiting it.

I remember a rookie named MVP beating one of the best wrestlers of all time, Chris Benoit, in two straight falls. I attribute this to MVP scouting Benoit and going move for move and counter for counter with him. I'm sure Santo will scout the three or four moves HBK does and counter them with ease especially the SCM.

I guess HBK can counter an Ankle Lock but can't counter a Sharpshooter as evidenced by watching Backlash 2004 when he tapped out to Chris Benoit.

HHH has never beaten Batista. Just throwing that out there.

 

[Ferbian]

I remember a rookie named MVP beating one of the best wrestlers of all time, Chris Benoit, in two straight falls. I attribute this to MVP scouting Benoit and going move for move and counter for counter with him. I'm sure Santo will scout the three or four moves HBK does and counter them with ease especially the SCM.

I don't know what kind of Shawn Michaels matches you were watching, but even in Shawn's later stage of his career (2009 2010) he used many more moves throughout those years and the matches he had.

Hell I'll point them out just so we're clear, I'd like to be specific.

Spoiler

* Finishing moves
o Modified figure four leglock[167] – early 2008
o Sweet Chin Music[2] (Superkick, with theatrics)
o Teardrop Suplex[168] (Leg hook Saito suplex) – 1992–1993

* Signature moves
o Arm trap crossface[169] – 2007–2010
o Backhand chop[169]
o Belly to back suplex[168]
o Diving elbow drop, with theatrics[1]
o Dropkick[168]
o Figure four leglock[168]
o Flying forearm smash followed by a kip-up[1]
o Inverted atomic drop[1]
o Moonsault,[1] sometimes while springboarding to the outside
o Skin the cat[79]
o Slingshot crossbody[168]

That's just the majority of them, he has a few holds back and forth here and there, hammerlock, headlock etc. but they're not signature moves really, but they're moves, I took the liberty of highlighting those he'd use in a regular match, that's at least 7 holds, not counting the standard hold that anybody really has to be able to slap on if you're to be considered ANYTHING in the wrestling business.

I don't know how you're voting, but I'm voting Prime vs Prime, not some nursing home race to get the dried peaches first (or what in the world those people get fed), and Shawn Michael's prime had at least the crossbody, the moonsault and the dropkick regularly, that makes 10 regular moves to say the least, I have my sincere doubt I need to bring out Kurt Angle vs Shawn Michaels to show the amount of holds Shawn can put on, or Shawn vs Bret Hart, or Shawn vs The British Bulldog, all regular matches, while he only came out of two of them "alive" he put on some great matches during those, with a lot of moves, Shawn, old or young was a great wrestler.

I guess HBK can counter an Ankle Lock but can't counter a Sharpshooter as evidenced by watching Backlash 2004 when he tapped out to Chris Benoit.

Shawn has countered the Sharpshooter numerous times if you will, in his prime again, Bret Hart, Bret Hart, Bret Hart.

HHH has never beaten Batista. Just throwing that out there.

True, I wasn't quite focusing on that for the moment, I'm arguing Shawn over El Santo, not Triple H over Batista, but thanks for reminding me either way.

 

[Bernkastel]

No offensive to the innovation of Santo, but there really isn't allot of his stuff available (free or for pay) to the public; certainly not enough to jusify voting him over one of the greatest entertainers of all time.

Name value can only get someone so far, as evident when guys like Thesz and Gotch can barely make it past the second round. Santo's name in pro wrestling hasn't been relevent, at least in the States, for the past twenty years. HBK is still fresh in our minds, and has material from his debut all the way up to his retirement readily available.

This would be one hell of a match to watch, as I wouldn't expect Santo to be dominated in the slightest. The series would go 1 to 1, with Shawn taking the last fall in some epic fashion.

 

[48.7 is Approximately 49 Times Better Than You]

You people are ridiculous. No one cares about El Santo. He wreslted 60-70 years ago in Mexico. He was never relevant to any of us, so I don't understand why some of you insist on constantly riding him and others like him. Shawn Michaels is one of the best entertainers of our generation. But hey, if insignificant nobodies in today's wrestling are what you dig, then more power to you.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Would it make you feel better that I don't care about Shawn Michaels? You can cry into your pillow if that upsets you. Michaels may be may a good entertainer but he loses more than he wins. HBK loses about two-thirds of his matches anyways so that will fall right into play here. I'd rather take somebody who has experience winning 2/3 Falls matches than somebody who loses when it matters most.

 

[LigerBomb]

You people are ridiculous. No one cares about El Santo. He wreslted 60-70 years ago in Mexico. He was never relevant to any of us, so I don't understand why some of you insist on constantly riding him and others like him. Shawn Michaels is one of the best entertainers of our generation. But hey, if insignificant nobodies in today's wrestling are what you dig, then more power to you.

You assume much. And your condescension is mildly annoying. For example I grew up in an area that has many Mexican and Latino youth and a big part of their upbringing --and consequently bits of mine-- was spent watching Lucha Libre on TV, or when they could, in person. Some even took in matches in Mexico when they visited family.
Many were regaled endlessly with tales of El Santo's deeds by their first generation immigrant Fathers and/or Grandfathers. One man in the neighborhood even claimed to have wrestled Santo once. In this way, --and a multitude of others-- they were connected to their ethnic identity and to their family, to their culture. To some the man is a folk hero and the stuff of legend eclipsing anything we could ever hope to understand. Beyond Hogan, beyond Flair. To some he was so much more than a "pro-wrestler". While he may not be relevant to you please don't pretend to speak for, or know the feelings of others.
For me personally I've seen bits and pieces here and there; fortunate to hear some of these stories, see old films/clips/video, and physically touch souvenirs of the bygone era. I won't feign a mastery of Lucha history but I know what I've seen with my own two eyes. And there is nothing I've seen that leads me to believe Shawn Michaels is the overwhelming odds on favorite de facto.
I'm not saying that Santo is overwhelmingly superior. Nor do I think Shawn is markedly inferior. What I am saying is that I know what I've seen and I've read up to fill in the rest. I feel I am qualified to cast a vote. If you've not compiled enough empirical data I would recommend you not do the same (though you clearly already have).

 

[gd]

Not only is this a vote for El Santo, but it's a vote against Michaels. Sure, he had the brilliant match every now and then, but other than that he's been more or less going through the motions for the last few years. As stated above, when he was on top as the champ, the company wasn't very successful.

Santo is the biggest and baddest Mexican wrestler ever. It's literally the perfect gimmick for him as he's wrestled thousands of these matches while you can count the number of 2/3 falls matches HBK's had on one finger. If you're going by kayfabe, and this is the ideal round to look at it kayfabically, Santo easily takes this.

 

[Via Armbar]

Beating HHH after retiring for four years shows that HHH wanted to put Shawn over because nobody thought he would have kept wrestling for almost eight years. That's the only one-on-one win he has against HHH. Shawn is in the same boat as Flair as they are only known within the wrestling world. Ask the average person who HBK is and they will have no clue. Santo is known more globally than HBK can hope to dream. When has his flying elbow and Sharpshooter ever won matches? HBK is a natural-born loser plain and simple. He may put on a great match but more often than not he loses them.

Ask anyone outside of Mexico who the fuck Santo is. More people will recognize Shawn before they recognize Santo. To say otherwise is absolutely ridiculous. Santo is NOT known more globally than Michaels. Santo is known in Mexico. You have people that will try and say that because he did a lot of luchadores and wrestling in Mexico that he was some sort of global star or pioneer in American wrestling. He wasn't. I'm not saying that Michaels was groundbreaking, but as far as the USA goes, he is more known. That is where this match is taking place no?

Don't let them fool you; just because it's a household name to you and people tell you how important he was to American wrestling, doesn't mean he meant shit anywhere else.

See what I did there.

Nobody is fooling me. If anything, you've been fooled into thinking that Santo means shit outside of Mexico. Michaels may be an American name, but he has gone over people that matter in other countries. Santo hasn't. Santo is absolutely a legend in Mexico and one of the founding fathers of lucha. I'm not going to aruge that. Seeing that this match doesn't take place in Mexico though, he means shit here. Even Michaels, who was never a huge draw, could draw better than Santo in America.