The unbiased, unbridled, naked truth about what's wrong with the WWE...

[D-Man]

I've been scanning all of the forums and this subject has come up a few times in the WWE sections. So, I figured this thread should be bumped. A lot of good feedback was given in here and I think it's time that everyone read it again.

Once again, I really feel that unless the negativity slows down (because let's face it, it's not going to stop) professional wrestling is eventually going to die at our hands.

We need to just accept what is given to us. We were all blessed with the gift of the entertainment of professional wrestling, but since we don't like it's current product, we're all starting to bite the hand that fed us. I don't feel it's right, but I also know it's never going to stop.

Thoughts?

 

[mareek]

*sigh* I hate when ppl give the IWC this much credit. Did the IWC have a reason in the the decline in wrestling? Maybe. And by maybe I mean about 10% and that's me being generous. The problem with the wwe or wrestling in general is not the IWC it's society. When we were younger we watched wwf and wcw and were amazed at wrestling. We loved the storylines, we loved the crudeness, and we loved the attitude. But we're all grown up and more mature the wwe can't market their product to us because we're not where the money is at. Kids are the ones who buy the merchandise not us. So the product is basically for kids, the days of sticking up a middle finger and the stuff that we loved are gone. The wwe might not be what it used to be but for the most part it has evolved and it's time for us to accept that and do the same.

 

[slimmshady]

Yes I agree that the online wrestling community is destroying the business but to tell you the truth this has been happening even before the introduction of the global world wide web. Spoilers and inside stories have been distributed ever since pro wrestling became a global success. However I still believe that the decision to completely eliminate the wwe's biggest competition, wcw, truly destroyed the business a long time ago. The wwe is a giant monopoly business in this current position in time and without any high quality decent competition, they can do what they want and when they want to do it. So if we don't like some of the story lines, ppvs etc, we are unable to do jack sh*t about it. As for the reason why I personally joined this type of discussion group was so that I could communicate with other fans across the globe and view different opinions. To be honest, I'm sick and tired of people complaining but isn't that why you joined this community. Tell me, what urges someone to join this community if they know that what they will get out of it may not necessarily be fulfilling for them in the long run. You wanted the spoilers and inside stories since the day you joined this community and now you're complaining about something that you were never forced into. My question is why? However, I do admire you passion and love for the sport but the fact of the matter is, you have entered into a place, at your own free will, where all views and opinions are welcomed no matter how negatively one sided they are. The wwe is technically a sport therefore there will always be critics no matter how well the product is doing.

 

[Wrath]

I have to agree with you. For me what kills wrestling business is knowing everything about wrestling business. It's the biggest reason that killed our love for wrestling.

When we were kids we used to love wrestling and see our favorite wrestlers like our heroes. Everyone can agree with me that they still can't entertain by wrestling as much as they used to entertain when they were kids or when they first started watching wrestling. Wrestling back then was great we didn't care storylines,in ring skills,promo skills etc. We just watched wrestling because we loved it. We didn't care if Hogan knew 5 moves or we didn't care if someone sucks in mic. We didn't have an idea what gimmick,storyline and feud means we all thought wrestling was real and we didn't care someone's backstage attitude. Everyone looked happy about how wrestling business worked, no one complained about Hogan knowing 4 moves or being like a Superman. They just loved Hogan because Hogan entertained them. It was that simple they didn't care how many moves he knows because even with a one move he can be entertaining why not he should use 100 more moves. So everyone loved wrestling.

When we started learning how the wrestling business worked we all started to have some thoughts about wrestling. We learned that what mic skills,in ring skills,character and all those thing mean. We learned that matches are booked by people called bookers. When we started learning everything about wrestling it made us think that we know business more than anyone. Just because knowing inside of business made us so called wrestling experts. We started analyzing wrestlers skills instead of trying to enjoy. We still love wrestling but when you try to analyze something you should find bad and good things about the show and it started killing our love for wrestling business. We started trying to find logical flaws in shows. We started spot talents which is writers and bookers job. It's also the reason for Cena hate we started criticizing him instead of trying to be entertained by him. We started to love people for their technical in ring skills or characters. We forgot why we watched wrestling. It's not our jobs. Yes you might want the storyline to play out in different way but your job is to watch and entertain. If you can't entertain it means that wrestling isn't for you.

Think a movie for example why do we watch a film ? It's simple to entertain by it. But if you go to that movie to criticise it like critics analyzing plot,script and everything can you entertain as much. It's same with wrestling. We should watch wrestling to entertain not for trying to prove you know wrestling business much more than everyone else. Because we simply don't. Can someone tell me how are matches booked ? We've never runned a wrestling company we don't have fucking idea about anything. So it's fucking stupid to act like a wrestling expert something we're not.

As a wrestling fan I don't care if Khali is a terrible wrestler if he is entertaining I don't mind him. I find him boring so he's a bad wrestler for me but I find Jeff Hardy very entertaining and I don't care if he's a spot monkey. Does he entertain me ? Yes. So why should I bother him not being good in ring performer. He's an entertainer and his job is to entertain us if he can do it I don't care how bad he's on mic.

Yes you're right we should stop analyzing shows like fucking experts and instead try to entertain by it.

 

[Ambiguous Turd]

I've been scanning all of the forums and this subject has come up a few times in the WWE sections. So, I figured this thread should be bumped. A lot of good feedback was given in here and I think it's time that everyone read it again.

Once again, I really feel that unless the negativity slows down (because let's face it, it's not going to stop) professional wrestling is eventually going to die at our hands.

We need to just accept what is given to us. We were all blessed with the gift of the entertainment of professional wrestling, but since we don't like it's current product, we're all starting to bite the hand that fed us. I don't feel it's right, but I also know it's never going to stop.

Thoughts?

I was going to make a response to the OP. Although, then I saw it was written back in March, so I don't know if you still feel the exact same way then that you did now about every thing you wrote, or not. Although, I did see that you feel if people don't stop bitching about the product, then wrestling is going to die.

It should come as no surprise that I disagree with most of what you said in the OP, but that doesn't mean that I don't respect your viewpoints. And for doing so, I am going to Rep you for the OP, with which I didn't see until now, as I thought it was an articulate post.

The thing is that people trip over themselves when they talk about the IWC and its influence. I hear people say that "... well, the IWC only accounts for about 10% of wrestling fans." Then, I read a post like this where it says that "if those same group of fans don't stop bitching, then wrestling is going to die." My question would then be that "if we are only 10%, then what does it matter? Aren't we insignificant? Or are we more influential than we give ourselves credit for?"

Just because we don't work for WWE (because it's damn near impossible to get into that company unless you know someone ... and even then it's still difficult because the company doesn't employ as many people on the road as one might think ... therefore you would have to live in Connecticut for employment at Titan Towers) ..... that doesn't mean that fans who have been around the product for many years isn't qualified to provide valid critiques for the product. I think the fact that we aren't employed by them is irrelevant. Fact is that many of us have studied the business for decades, have gauged audience reactions to what works and what doesn't work, can tell a good match from a bad match, can tell when a promo is effective and when it is not ... and generally have good ideas that we feel would honestly help the product.

I think you responded in the TNA thread when I referred to a lot of people as Vince marks by calling me "Anti Vince". When I refer to people as Vince marks, I am not trying to be outwardly derogatory in that statement, but at the same time, I truly believe that a lot of people do drink the Vince Kool-Aid ... and therefore have a huge Vince bias. I don't like to see Vince dictate whatever he wants to his audience, and see people lap it up, just because it comes from Vince McMahon, regardless of the quality of TV he puts on. I feel like people like us should have pre-conceived notions of what constitutes good television and what doesn't, and should stick to those convictions regardless of what Vince McMahon feels is good, quality television. I would like people to be individuals, and not sacrifice their notions of good and bad television because of some blind faith to WWE, simply because they love wrestling so much ... and feel like they are being "disloyal" to a product by saying anything bad against it.

If anything, I consider myself to be a patriot of the business. I come down on WWE because I have followed the business since 1990, and it has been a large part of my life.

I loved the business in the Hogan Era.
I thought it was okay in the New Generation Era.
I loved the business in the Attitude Era.
I started to become bored with the Post Attitude Era.

And as everyone knows, I despise the PG Era.

I feel that this is truly the most stale, boring Era of wrestling since the company has been in existence.

No effort into storylines.

Half-assed efforts placed into feuds.

Terrible effort at developing characters and gimmicks.

Horrendous commentary, given the new direction Vince wants of "Analyst Commentary".

Feel the absence of Ringside Managers plays a critical part in reducing the entertainment out of the product.

No Tag Team Wrestling.

Lack of an effort into developing new talent.

The same feuds done over and over and over again ... to the point where they have been ran into the ground.

Overexposure of the product with 6 hours of original programming a week.

Too many PPV's, so that the importance and prestige of PPV events have taken a dive, while prices continue to rise.


These are all very real issues and are very valid criticisms of the product. How anyone can defend all this stuff, just for the sake of "defending the wrestling business" is really beyond me. These are all entertaining things that Vince McMahon took away from the fans. I talk with a lot of fans who agree with this, and want to hold Vince accountable. Then, I talk with other fans who may agree with all of the above, however still take the point of view that "We all need to stop criticizing Vince McMahon. Vince McMahon knows best."

Says who? Who says Vince McMahon knows best?

The naked truth is that Vince McMahon's success is actually largely based on luck, as well as his father. I know Vince fans are going to hate that, but that is the true, naked truth of the situation.

Vince has the good fortune of running a company in a business which 99.9% business professionals wants absolutely nothing to do with. He has the luxury of having a niche market of fans, albeit a large one, but still a niche market nonetheless, of people who will watch wrestling no matter what. Because of various reasons. For a lot of people, it represents something sentimental to them, as they grew up with it. For other people, maybe they don't like other sports and this suits them. Whatever the reason, people watch because, as people admitted, it is an addiction to them.

I, for one, have tuned the product out several times for weeks, and sometimes months. I am at the point now, where for me, it is no longer an addiction. I have the capability of being a fan of the wrestling business of old, and continuing to follow today's product ... but still having the will power to turn off the show and tune back in when I want to.

I don't want to give up wrestling forever, and I don't think I will have to. But I tell you, this particular Era of wrestling has made me come pretty damn close to wanting to do so.

But Vince enjoys his success because of fans that can't turn the product off (blind loyalty), and the fact that business professionals have no desire to work in this particular field. If Vince had serious competition, and business professionals wanted to actually get into this market much like any other business industry such as Insurance (for example), I have no doubt that Vince would in the very least be given a serious run for his money, and may very well have been put out of business by now.

So the success Vince enjoys, is really by default, because he has tapped into a niche market of loyal fans who follow wrestling for various reasons, and he has nobody that wants to be a part of this business to compete with him.

As far as not "biting the hand that fed us", contrary to what you may think, that is a 2-way street. Vince isn't the only one that has been feeding people. Fans have been feeding him lots and lots of money over the years, and these fans have expectations. And nor is that unrealistic for these fans to have expectations out of Vince. And right now, those expectations aren't being met for a lot of fans, as I have never seen the amount of complaining done today, compared to years past. But the Internet has made fans a lot more demanding, obviously. At the same time, that's the way the ball bounces. The Internet isn't going away, and it is simply something Vince needs to deal with. It's a challenge just like any other challenge or obstacle in any business. That is something Vince needs to deal with ... not the fans.

For many years, Vince has told fans what to like and what not to like. Now, in this very opinionated state the wrestling fans are in, there is a ton of pushback back on Vince in that philosophy. Rather, they are telling him what they want. So we have a struggle going on.

However, I have to say in most businesses I see, companies try to cater to their clientelle, as opposed to trying to dictate to them the type of product they should be wanting. Vince likes to be in control, and is a control freak as most of us accept by now. But now, we are seeing that fans (customers) want to tell Vince what they want, and he doesn't want to relinquish that control.

I'm sorry, but I can't necessarily blame the fans. That is the way most businesses operate in that companies cater to the wishes of their customers, not the other way around. So I can't necessarily justify Vince's actions with not wanting to listen to fans.

Anyway, I have gone on enough about this topic. But I encourage fans to do just the opposite to what you said in your post, unfortunately. If fans have a problem with something, then they need to let their voices be heard and heard LOUD. And the more in unison people are, the better a chance they have of getting something accomplished. And that isn't because I want to see the wrestling business destroyed. Rather, I want to see the business improved upon.

I want to see loud, enthusiastic crowds. I want to see ratings go up. I want to see buyrates go up. I want to see attendance go up. But in order to do all of that, Vince needs to understand that he needs to give the fans something new. He simply is not giving them anything new to give them a reason to tune in. He simply must work both harder and smarter.

 

[Wrath]

I highly respect your opinions but I have to disagree with you.

The thing is that people trip over themselves when they talk about the IWC and its influence. I hear people say that "... well, the IWC only accounts for about 10% of wrestling fans." Then, I read a post like this where it says that "if those same group of fans don't stop bitching, then wrestling is going to die." My question would then be that "if we are only 10%, then what does it matter? Aren't we insignificant? Or are we more influential than we give ourselves credit for?"

If we were that significant John Cena probably wouldn't be the top star of the company or we would still be in Attitude era but Vince doesn't listen us and he doesn't have to. Because we are in minority.

Just because we don't work for WWE (because it's damn near impossible to get into that company unless you know someone ... and even then it's still difficult because the company doesn't employ as many people on the road as one might think ... therefore you would have to live in Connecticut for employment at Titan Towers) ..... that doesn't mean that fans who have been around the product for many years isn't qualified to provide valid critiques for the product. I think the fact that we aren't employed by them is irrelevant. Fact is that many of us have studied the business for decades, have gauged audience reactions to what works and what doesn't work, can tell a good match from a bad match, can tell when a promo is effective and when it is not ... and generally have good ideas that we feel would honestly help the product.

Yes we've been watching wrestling for a long time and have an idea about how this business works but the problem is we've never run a wrestling company we don't have any experience like Vince has. We don't know how to create a huge star or how to make money for a wrestling company. I've still never seen any creative idea from IWC other than bring back Attitude era,stop the brand split,fire John Cena... We may know what is entertaining and what is not in wrestling but we don't have any idea to how to make a succesful wrestling company.

I think you responded in the TNA thread when I referred to a lot of people as Vince marks by calling me "Anti Vince". When I refer to people as Vince marks, I am not trying to be outwardly derogatory in that statement, but at the same time, I truly believe that a lot of people do drink the Vince Kool-Aid ... and therefore have a huge Vince bias. I don't like to see Vince dictate whatever he wants to his audience, and see people lap it up, just because it comes from Vince McMahon, regardless of the quality of TV he puts on. I feel like people like us should have pre-conceived notions of what constitutes good television and what doesn't, and should stick to those convictions regardless of what Vince McMahon feels is good, quality television. I would like people to be individuals, and not sacrifice their notions of good and bad television because of some blind faith to WWE, simply because they love wrestling so much ... and feel like they are being "disloyal" to a product by saying anything bad against it.

We can't argue the fact that Vince McMahon is the biggest mind in wrestling business. Everyone is saying that without Hogan there would be no WWE but without Vince would there ever be a Hogan. So if we look at this in that way I'm a Vince mark at least I respect for what's done for wrestling business. I don't think Vince's trying to only give us what he wants. He's not stupid he does what he does because he thinks fans(us) can love it. Maybe he is right maybe he is wrong but he does what he does not because he thinks he can control us because he thinks it's a good idea. As long as WWE is #1 promotion and making more money it means that he's doing something right and please don't compare me todays' ratings to ratings they did 10 years ago. Tv business have changed so much we can't ignore it. The fact is RAW is still one of the most rated shows on cable tv.

If anything, I consider myself to be a patriot of the business. I come down on WWE because I have followed the business since 1990, and it has been a large part of my life.

I loved the business in the Hogan Era.
I thought it was okay in the New Generation Era.
I loved the business in the Attitude Era.
I started to become bored with the Post Attitude Era.

And as everyone knows, I despise the PG Era.

Why not you also try to like this era. I think it's a product for everyone's taste. If you want to watch more character developments,segments and comedy stuff watch RAW if you love more wrestling and in ring work you can watch Smackdown and Superstars and if you love to watch new fresh talent you can watch ECW. If you are a wrestling fan one of these shows can make you interested. I still love wrestling it still entertains me and if you try you also can love wrestling.

No effort into storylines.

I don't think so there are still very good storylines. I think whole Long&Undertaker&Punk storyline is good, Ziggler&Maria storyline is still interesting and we're waiting for what will happen and I think there is really much effort to develop those storylines.

Half-assed efforts placed into feuds.

They have no other chance how can you expect a meaningful feud in a 2 week develop time. They have 12-13 PPVs in a year and they have to fill those cards to sell. You can't blame Vince for that it wasn't his choice to increase the amount of 3 hour PPVs. But there are still very good feuds in WWE. Cm Punk and Jeff Hardy feud is the last good example of it.

Terrible effort at developing characters and gimmicks.

WWE's doing great job on this one too. Just look at how great Punk's persona has become. Not only that since his injury Edge has been building up as a face by Jericho. Zack Ryder is an another good example he becomes a very good heel from a useless fake Edge. So I don't see any problem in this.

Horrendous commentary, given the new direction Vince wants of "Analyst Commentary".

Commentary is not as entertaining as it was back with JR&Lawler and Moonson&Heenan but it's not a big factor isn't it ?

Feel the absence of Ringside Managers plays a critical part in reducing the entertainment out of the product.

Because general managers have taken this role right now instead of managers authority figures are the ones that makes matches so there is no need for them anymore and Vince got rid off them.

No Tag Team Wrestling.

We can't judge this decision personally. Tag team division is one of the most entertaining things about wrestling but if it makes no more money and people don't care about it it's a wise business decision to get rid off it. Vince knows what makes money better than us and tag team wrestling probably not making much money.

Lack of an effort into developing new talent.

They even have a brand to develop talents. I'm sick and tired of everybody saying why is RAW's main event stale because there are still no one ready to replace Cena,Orton and Triple H. Other than that WWE's doing a very good job to develop talent. Zack Ryder and Sheamus seem to have some potential inside,Christian is the best thing on ECW,Kofi Kingston is probably one of the best US champions ever,Jack Swagger and The Miz are still not ready for ME but probably be in future,DX put over Legacy and still trying to put them over,Morrison is very near to become a huge star and Dolph Ziggler will be a huge star in the future. Maybe other than Swagger and The Miz all of these wrestlers that I've listed are getting very good pushes and when they're ready they will in ME scene.
The same feuds done over and over and over again ... to the point where they have been ran into the ground.

Overexposure of the product with 6 hours of original programming a week.

Isn't it great you have more choices about the product. For example RAW's been probably the most boring show since draft so I prefer watching SD. Nobody is telling us that to watch 4 of the shows. I've never watched an episode of Superstars in my life.

Too many PPV's, so that the importance and prestige of PPV events have taken a dive, while prices continue to rise.

It wasn't Vince's decision. How can you blame Vince for it ?

These are all very real issues and are very valid criticisms of the product. How anyone can defend all this stuff, just for the sake of "defending the wrestling business" is really beyond me. These are all entertaining things that Vince McMahon took away from the fans. I talk with a lot of fans who agree with this, and want to hold Vince accountable. Then, I talk with other fans who may agree with all of the above, however still take the point of view that "We all need to stop criticizing Vince McMahon. Vince McMahon knows best."

Because at least I still love the product and it's enough for me to defend Vince and WWE. Even you still find something that is interesting about wrestling if you didn't you wouldn't still watch it. People still love wrestling and it's the reason WWE still exist. Just because bunch of morons on internet(No offense to you or particular someone) it doesn't mean that people are bored and tired of wrestling.

Says who? Who says Vince McMahon knows best?

Me. Call me a Vince mark but I'm hell sure he knows wrestling business more than you and I know.

The naked truth is that Vince McMahon's success is actually largely based on luck, as well as his father. I know Vince fans are going to hate that, but that is the true, naked truth of the situation.

I'm not a Vince fan. Why should I be but I respect what he's done for this business that's why I've been defending him from the start of discussion. Without him you maybe wouldn't have experienced those great days that you said.

Vince has the good fortune of running a company in a business which 99.9% business professionals wants absolutely nothing to do with. He has the luxury of having a niche market of fans, albeit a large one, but still a niche market nonetheless, of people who will watch wrestling no matter what. Because of various reasons. For a lot of people, it represents something sentimental to them, as they grew up with it. For other people, maybe they don't like other sports and this suits them. Whatever the reason, people watch because, as people admitted, it is an addiction to them.

People are addicted to wrestling because they always find something entertaining about wrestling. It's that simple. People watch wrestling because they entertain. You might not like it anymore but people still like it it's that simple.

But Vince enjoys his success because of fans that can't turn the product off (blind loyalty), and the fact that business professionals have no desire to work in this particular field. If Vince had serious competition, and business professionals wanted to actually get into this market much like any other business industry such as Insurance (for example), I have no doubt that Vince would in the very least be given a serious run for his money, and may very well have been put out of business by now.

People are not masochists. No one watches a show if they don't like. You maybe watch it because of your loyalty for wrestling but people don't. As for IWC they just don't know what they want whatever WWE tries to do they find something to complain so it's impossible to satistify them. But as for majority of fans they still love and enjoy wrestling business and there are more wrestling fans watching those shows each day.


Sorry I couldn't responded your points because I'm really tired. I respect your opinions and you have a right to not to like wrestling product right now and no one is forcing you to watch wrestling. It's your decision to watch it or not. If you read my post above maybe you can understand why I think in this way. Current generation has changed and Vince McMahon is 62 years old so he may've lost touch with current generation but I think the man still knows what he is doing. I think we fans are also big reason of not liking watching wrestling and I tried to explain the reason on my post above. If you read it maybe you can understand me better.

 

[D-Man]

Sidious, I'll prelim my reply by stating a few things... For starters, the majority of my replies are not a personal attack on you. It's on the negative smarks on the internet. You just so happen to be one of their biggest members.

Secondly, you speak as if Vince need to cater to you and your opinions. The majority of your views are no one's but your own, and that is why you anger people at times (and I know you don't care, so no need to reiterate that again). I see that you have very valid points, but your close-minded views are easily disagreeable. There is a much wider audience out there than you and your buddies that are around the same age as you. Besides, the majority of the WWE's "flaws" that you mention cater to the Attitude Era of the WWE. It's been said so many times before... ATTITUDE IS DEAD SO MOVE ON.

That being said...

I was going to make a response to the OP. Although, then I saw it was written back in March, so I don't know if you still feel the exact same way then that you did now about every thing you wrote, or not. Although, I did see that you feel if people don't stop bitching about the product, then wrestling is going to die.

I still feel the same way. This website opened my eyes to many other things and a lot of new knowledge, but my views on the negativity-wildfire that is spreading in the IWC will never change. Nothing personal, but in my eyes, you are one of it's biggest culprits.

It should come as no surprise that I disagree with most of what you said in the OP, but that doesn't mean that I don't respect your viewpoints. And for doing so, I am going to Rep you for the OP, with which I didn't see until now, as I thought it was an articulate post.

Like I said earlier, nothing personal. I respect your opinions as well, but I also feel they are extremely close-minded, stubborn, and self-indulgent. You may say the same thing about me. That's why this is a debate, and a damn good one at that.

The thing is that people trip over themselves when they talk about the IWC and its influence. I hear people say that "... well, the IWC only accounts for about 10% of wrestling fans." Then, I read a post like this where it says that "if those same group of fans don't stop bitching, then wrestling is going to die." My question would then be that "if we are only 10%, then what does it matter? Aren't we insignificant? Or are we more influential than we give ourselves credit for?"

This is exactly why I used the phrase "Bad apples spoiling the bunch." Negativity outweighs positivity in all aspects of life. Just like when you can't remember the last time your boss gave you a compliment, but you sure as hell can remember the last time they reprimanded you. Positivity is easily overlooked but negativity is extremely influencial. The more the internet smarks like yourself spread your message of how "everything sucks" in the wrestling world, the more it will spread like a disease and will tear the wrestling world apart. Whenever I go to a live event, I can always point out the internet smarks... they're the ones ruining the show for me. You should all wave the next time you're on camera.

Just because we don't work for WWE (because it's damn near impossible to get into that company unless you know someone ... and even then it's still difficult because the company doesn't employ as many people on the road as one might think ... therefore you would have to live in Connecticut for employment at Titan Towers) ..... that doesn't mean that fans who have been around the product for many years isn't qualified to provide valid critiques for the product. I think the fact that we aren't employed by them is irrelevant. Fact is that many of us have studied the business for decades, have gauged audience reactions to what works and what doesn't work, can tell a good match from a bad match, can tell when a promo is effective and when it is not ... and generally have good ideas that we feel would honestly help the product.

Your opinions are always welcome. How can anyone improve anything without a touch of criticism? It's the way we all make ourselves better. But normally when someone criticises something, they see at least a shred of positivity and a chance that it will get better. I don't feel your criticism carries that underlying positivity. You bounce from thread to thread, complaining about the product because it doesn't work for YOU.

Ok, we get it. You don't like the current product. Now that we've established that for the millionth time, how about you try watching it and finding good things to talk to people about. It's easy to sit in a corner and criticise everything. But you need to balance it out with some POSITIVE views of the product because they actually exist. If not, you just sound like a bitching, moaning, negative, emo child contemplating suicide. "Everything sucks... this world is going nowhere... I want to die..." I can barely remember the last time you actually complimented something that had to do with the WWE product. And when you did, it was such a backhanded compliment that it made me roll my eyes and wonder if you find anything in your life to be enjoyable.

I think you responded in the TNA thread when I referred to a lot of people as Vince marks by calling me "Anti Vince". When I refer to people as Vince marks, I am not trying to be outwardly derogatory in that statement, but at the same time, I truly believe that a lot of people do drink the Vince Kool-Aid ... and therefore have a huge Vince bias. I don't like to see Vince dictate whatever he wants to his audience, and see people lap it up, just because it comes from Vince McMahon, regardless of the quality of TV he puts on. I feel like people like us should have pre-conceived notions of what constitutes good television and what doesn't, and should stick to those convictions regardless of what Vince McMahon feels is good, quality television. I would like people to be individuals, and not sacrifice their notions of good and bad television because of some blind faith to WWE, simply because they love wrestling so much ... and feel like they are being "disloyal" to a product by saying anything bad against it.

We don't drink "Vince Kool-Aid." We simply overlook all of the negative aspects of the current program and continue to appreciate Vince for what he's always done for us... entertain. No matter how many holes the WWE gets buried in, they always climb out. Vince is always the one leading the charge. If it weren't for him, not even YOU would enjoy wrestling as much as you do.

As for Vince "dictating what he wants to the audience," you seem to forget that pro-wrestling is nothing more than a television show with characters, storylines, and plots. Writers on all television shows create 'bad guys,' 'good guys,' and potential storyline plots. We, as an audience, can choose whether we want to cheer the bad guy and boo the good guy or vice versa. But in the end, we're watching a television show. It's drama... television shows that are created by writers that want to manipulate your emotions by creating an enactment of a fictitious plot. Writers for television shows on ALL platforms do EXACTLY what Vince does when he helps to write a wrestling storyline. So there's no need to complain about this anymore. Make your choice as to who you're going to cheer and boo... it's your right as an audience member with free will.

If anything, I consider myself to be a patriot of the business. I come down on WWE because I have followed the business since 1990, and it has been a large part of my life.

I loved the business in the Hogan Era.
I thought it was okay in the New Generation Era.
I loved the business in the Attitude Era.
I started to become bored with the Post Attitude Era.

And as everyone knows, I despise the PG Era.

This is what drives me nuts about you. You constantly label yourself with terms like "patriot" to look 'holier than thou.' But what makes you a "patriot"? If you define patriot you'll find this:

patriot - one who loves and defends his or her country

Obviously, we're not talking about a country. But if you're a patriot, that means you're defending something. What are you defending?? If anything, you're the antonym of a patriot... or a traitor.

I feel that this is truly the most stale, boring Era of wrestling since the company has been in existence.

No effort into storylines.

Half-assed efforts placed into feuds.

Terrible effort at developing characters and gimmicks.

Horrendous commentary, given the new direction Vince wants of "Analyst Commentary".

Feel the absence of Ringside Managers plays a critical part in reducing the entertainment out of the product.

No Tag Team Wrestling.

Lack of an effort into developing new talent.

The same feuds done over and over and over again ... to the point where they have been ran into the ground.

Overexposure of the product with 6 hours of original programming a week.

Too many PPV's, so that the importance and prestige of PPV events have taken a dive, while prices continue to rise.

Good for you and the rest of the negative smarks out there. But like I said earlier, the WWE isn't aiming to entertain YOU. They aim to entertain children. You're too old to understand so maybe you should just turn the product off. If you want to watch a product with immoral, borderline-offensive, racy storylines, then turn on TNA. Last night's broadcast had Kevin Nash in a backstage segment with a couple of midgets, speaking of slapstick subjects that could easily be confused as sexual innuendos. Storylines and segments like that no longer have a place in the WWE.

These are all very real issues and are very valid criticisms of the product. How anyone can defend all this stuff, just for the sake of "defending the wrestling business" is really beyond me. These are all entertaining things that Vince McMahon took away from the fans. I talk with a lot of fans who agree with this, and want to hold Vince accountable. Then, I talk with other fans who may agree with all of the above, however still take the point of view that "We all need to stop criticizing Vince McMahon. Vince McMahon knows best."

I understand your pain. And I agree that everyone's responses are just ignorant and incorrect. But those criticisms are not coming from the mouths of the demographic that the WWE is aiming to entertain. So if you guys don't like it, then that's just too bad. Once again, Attitude Era is OVER. The PG Era is in and it's not going anywhere. No need to bitch and moan about thing you cannot or will not ever control. All you're doing to getting others to drink YOUR Kool-Aid, and this is hurting the business that you (supposedly) and I love.

Says who? Who says Vince McMahon knows best?

Let's face it, he IS the best professional wrestling promoter in the world, so I would say this is valid to an extent. But to somewhat of a greater extent you're absolutely right. The best answer for this is the fact that only the AUDIENCE knows best... but the only audience that matters is the audience that the WWE is AIMING to please, and that doesn't include you and me.

The naked truth is that Vince McMahon's success is actually largely based on luck, as well as his father. I know Vince fans are going to hate that, but that is the true, naked truth of the situation.

Vince has the good fortune of running a company in a business which 99.9% business professionals wants absolutely nothing to do with. He has the luxury of having a niche market of fans, albeit a large one, but still a niche market nonetheless, of people who will watch wrestling no matter what. Because of various reasons. For a lot of people, it represents something sentimental to them, as they grew up with it. For other people, maybe they don't like other sports and this suits them. Whatever the reason, people watch because, as people admitted, it is an addiction to them.

I, for one, have tuned the product out several times for weeks, and sometimes months. I am at the point now, where for me, it is no longer an addiction. I have the capability of being a fan of the wrestling business of old, and continuing to follow today's product ... but still having the will power to turn off the show and tune back in when I want to.

I don't want to give up wrestling forever, and I don't think I will have to. But I tell you, this particular Era of wrestling has made me come pretty damn close to wanting to do so.

But Vince enjoys his success because of fans that can't turn the product off (blind loyalty), and the fact that business professionals have no desire to work in this particular field. If Vince had serious competition, and business professionals wanted to actually get into this market much like any other business industry such as Insurance (for example), I have no doubt that Vince would in the very least be given a serious run for his money, and may very well have been put out of business by now.

So the success Vince enjoys, is really by default, because he has tapped into a niche market of loyal fans who follow wrestling for various reasons, and he has nobody that wants to be a part of this business to compete with him.

Wow... this is such an ignorant and pompous statement. What difference does it REALLY make why people watch the product?? I find that they enjoy the product and defend it because, well, they ENJOY it. Labeling wrestling fans as people that practice "blind loyalty" and saying they are "addicted" to the product just makes you seem like you're sitting on some kind of high-horse and you're better than them because you're capable of pointing out it's flaws. It's just a ridiculous analysis of our wrestling fans, and quite frankly, I find it offensive.

Vince enhanced an existing form of entertainment for everyone. He took a gamble and it paid off. But that's what EVERY television show does. They brainstorm and create a product that will generate revenue. Some call it luck... some call it well-executed... some call it genius. Either way, for you to sit there and downplay what Vince has done for the business just because it conveniently supports your negativity is absolutely ridiculous. It's not like Vince bet on red at a blackjack table. SO many factors go into what was needed to be done to get professional wrestling to where it is today. A very intelligent business man put all of those factors together in a formula that worked in the television market. And it's easy to sit back and criticise him when he fucks up... nobody's perfect.

One subject I will ALWAYS agree with you on is the subject of competition. There is none in the wrestling market right now. We've all gone over this before. And if you believe Vince is taking a lackadaisical approach to storylines, midcard talent, tag teams, etc. then you may be correct to an extent. But remember that competition brings out the very best in everyone, therefore we aren't going to see Vince's best until someone rises to the challenge in the same way that WCW did in the past. But, I don't feel that we're seeing his worst, either.

As far as not "biting the hand that fed us", contrary to what you may think, that is a 2-way street. Vince isn't the only one that has been feeding people. Fans have been feeding him lots and lots of money over the years, and these fans have expectations. And nor is that unrealistic for these fans to have expectations out of Vince. And right now, those expectations aren't being met for a lot of fans, as I have never seen the amount of complaining done today, compared to years past. But the Internet has made fans a lot more demanding, obviously. At the same time, that's the way the ball bounces. The Internet isn't going away, and it is simply something Vince needs to deal with. It's a challenge just like any other challenge or obstacle in any business. That is something Vince needs to deal with ... not the fans.

For many years, Vince has told fans what to like and what not to like. Now, in this very opinionated state the wrestling fans are in, there is a ton of pushback back on Vince in that philosophy. Rather, they are telling him what they want. So we have a struggle going on.

However, I have to say in most businesses I see, companies try to cater to their clientelle, as opposed to trying to dictate to them the type of product they should be wanting. Vince likes to be in control, and is a control freak as most of us accept by now. But now, we are seeing that fans (customers) want to tell Vince what they want, and he doesn't want to relinquish that control.

Once again, great point. But the only ones bitching and moaning are the ones that grew up. The audience that the WWE is trying to entertain is not a part of the bitching, moaning, internet community. And the feedback we provide for them falls on deaf ears because they don't care about our age bracket. They are breeding the new group of fans, and those fans do not include us. This new group of fans outnumbers us by the THOUSANDS, but in any war you need to make sacrifices. I feel that Vince is thinking that if longevity and future profits in his business will be gained by losing fans of the Attitude Era and the older demographic, then so be it. We're just gonna have to get over it, aren't we?

I'm sorry, but I can't necessarily blame the fans. That is the way most businesses operate in that companies cater to the wishes of their customers, not the other way around. So I can't necessarily justify Vince's actions with not wanting to listen to fans.

I'll repeat: He just isn't listening to you. There are many people on this website that are a BIG part of the IWC who enjoy the product and how they are being entertained today. Unfortunately, Sidious, you're the minority. You've been outvoted by the powers that be. But continuing your tirades and sermons about how you know how to make the product better and your word is gospel has got to change because it's poisoning fans on the internet and other fans that sit next to you during live events, listening to your negative conversations about the product.

Anyway, I have gone on enough about this topic. But I encourage fans to do just the opposite to what you said in your post, unfortunately. If fans have a problem with something, then they need to let their voices be heard and heard LOUD. And the more in unison people are, the better a chance they have of getting something accomplished. And that isn't because I want to see the wrestling business destroyed. Rather, I want to see the business improved upon.

I want to see loud, enthusiastic crowds. I want to see ratings go up. I want to see buyrates go up. I want to see attendance go up. But in order to do all of that, Vince needs to understand that he needs to give the fans something new. He simply is not giving them anything new to give them a reason to tune in. He simply must work both harder and smarter.

This paragraph just allowed me to gain some respect for your beliefs. It couldn't be closer to the truth. We all want to see crowds jumps out of their seats. We all want to be deafened by crowd pops. Maybe all of the correct elements aren't mixing right now, but they will eventually, so we all need to be patient.

Furthermore, in agreeance with you, there is no way that any problems can ever get fixed unless we all speak up about them. But you need to check yourself and ask yourself a question... in your conquest for molding the current product into your own personal euphoria, is it good for the majority of the business, or is it only good for you??

 

[Ambiguous Turd]

I highly respect your opinions but I have to disagree with you.

D-Man, I will try to get to you later, but Wrath responded first. So, first come first served in this case.

If we were that significant John Cena probably wouldn't be the top star of the company or we would still be in Attitude era but Vince doesn't listen us and he doesn't have to. Because we are in minority.

Which I tend to agree with. However, D-Man is obviously concerned about the amount of influence we have that can perhaps leak over to the main wrestling fans.

As far as Cena goes, Cena would probably still be on top, if the IWC had its way, however he would most assuredly have a different character, such as the Rapper perhaps.

Yes we've been watching wrestling for a long time and have an idea about how this business works but the problem is we've never run a wrestling company we don't have any experience like Vince has. We don't know how to create a huge star or how to make money for a wrestling company.

A longtime merchandiser for the company that passed away a few years ago once told me that he once had a meeting with Vince, and tried to compliment him by telling Vince that "he was a genius". Vince responded by saying that he "doesn't consider himself to be a genius."

I am more inclined to agree with Vince, and actually respect his humility in that response.

With that being the case, if it doesn't take a genius necessarily to make talent, then I am sure that a lot of people in the IWC could very well produce stars. The key is in the Creativity.

If you have writing skills and a clever imagination, and are in touch with pop culture ... then yes, you have the ability to produce talent.

The problem with Vince is that I feel that he's done it for too long. And when you do things for too long or are in a position where you are too hands on with a certain facet of a company (such as Creative, in Vince's case), then you begin to become blind to the day-to-day things going on in the company.

I've still never seen any creative idea from IWC other than bring back Attitude era,stop the brand split,fire John Cena... We may know what is entertaining and what is not in wrestling but we don't have any idea to how to make a successful wrestling company.

I would disagree with suggesting people have "no idea" how to make a successful wrestling company. In the very least, I would argue that some IWC members have "some idea" of how to do just that. Some have better Creative imaginations than others, and can be successful in a Creative capacity, however how to run a company may be a lot harder for people to do, if they lack business experience.

The key is simply at the end of the day, to make a profit so that you are in the black, as opposed to being in the red. There are so many intricacies involved, however at the end of the day,

That means having a competent upper management staff, a competent HR staff to hire the right people with the right experience for the right positions, people that have demonstrated excellence in television to produce the shows, having a Marketing/Advertising team in place that has experienced success in their careers which can be translated into wrestling to tap into your target markets .... and has demonstrated a successful track record in managing relationships with clients. A Consumer Products team that is in touch with the types of products that appeals to each of the company's key demos to maximize revenues. A Corporate Communications team that is organized and competent to facilitate the flow of information to each of the departments in the company to ensure the same flow of information is passed onto all company employees on corporate directives. An Events team that can negotiate rates with buildings across the country and can ensure that markets are not over-saturated with events.

However, Creative is the biggest factor involved in it all, and obviously Vince McMahon knows that ..... hence why he is so hands on with that department. Sadly, I don't think that's a good thing after he has done it for so long. I'd rather him give almost virtually all control over to his son or daughter, since we really haven't seen what either of them can do without Vince breathing down their necks.

We can't argue the fact that Vince McMahon is the biggest mind in wrestling business. Everyone is saying that without Hogan there would be no WWE but without Vince would there ever be a Hogan. So if we look at this in that way I'm a Vince mark at least I respect for what's done for wrestling business. I don't think Vince's trying to only give us what he wants. He's not stupid he does what he does because he thinks fans(us) can love it. Maybe he is right maybe he is wrong but he does what he does not because he thinks he can control us because he thinks it's a good idea. As long as WWE is #1 promotion and making more money it means that he's doing something right and please don't compare me todays' ratings to ratings they did 10 years ago. Tv business have changed so much we can't ignore it. The fact is RAW is still one of the most rated shows on cable tv.

Without Hogan, one would have to question whether WWE would have ever become as big as it has. Look at Lex Luger, for example. What if Vince substituted Lex Luger in Hogan's place? Would he have drove thousands and thousands of people to the arenas each and every week, while becoming a pop culture icon?

Vince McMahon should be credited for having the foresight to take his father's company national. That will always be his biggest accomplishment .... having the vision to do such a thing.

However, again Vince was fortunate enough to have a father that basically handed him his very own established company of wrestlers. He also had his father's contacts from all the other regional promotions so that all he had to do was call them up, tell them what he was planning, make them an offer, and then they could hop aboard the train.

There were a lot of things already in place to allow Vince to be successful. The only time he was ever seriously challenged was during the Monday Night Wars, where Bischoff almost put him out of business. A relative newcomer wrestling promoter like Eric Bischoff almost put Vince McMahon out of business. Let that sink in for a moment.

It only goes to show that if you have the resources to compete with Vince, and are a halfway competent person ... then you can compete with Vince McMahon, too.

That is why I said that if more wealthy executives from the business world (like Bill Gates for example) one day woke up and said to themselves "you know, I am bored. I want to tap into the wrestling business ..." then I guarantee you that Vince would be in trouble in a couple years after that. Vince fears competition. After all, he knows what competition can potentially do to him.

Why not you also try to like this era. I think it's a product for everyone's taste. If you want to watch more character developments,segments and comedy stuff watch RAW if you love more wrestling and in ring work you can watch Smackdown and Superstars and if you love to watch new fresh talent you can watch ECW. If you are a wrestling fan one of these shows can make you interested. I still love wrestling it still entertains me and if you try you also can love wrestling.

Well, like I said earlier, I have preconceived notions of what I like and what I don't like. I will not be spoon fed like a lot of fans out there, and be told by Vince what I "should be liking" and "not liking".

The company began it's move towards PG television late 2006. And I am still around to this day, however have shut off WWE television now going on 3 times for a couple months each time, since then. So I would argue that I did give it a chance. Several chances as a matter of fact.

Raw, on paper, would look to be my cup of tea, as the Entertainment show. Unfortunately, I find the Entertainment on that show to be quite piss poor. I'm sorry but seeing the same people in the Main Event each and every week, seeing Chavo vs Hornswoggle each week, listening to announcers that sound like they would rather be anywhere else but at Raw, and essentially given the same feeling that I am watching the same exact show each and every week ... with the only difference being a new Guest Host ..... is hardly my idea of Entertainment. Vince has lost the novelty of offering something new each and every week to his fans. Again, that all comes down to the lack of competition.

But I will say that I have given a show a chance, and that is TNA Impact. That show is more up my alley, as it is a much edgier show. Any fans of the Attitude Era I can guarantee would be much more inclined to like a show like that over any WWE show at this point. It actually has storylines, decent quality feuds, intriguing characters that are developed each week, good wrestling, and more.

It isn't the Attitude Era, but is still more reflective of that particular product than any show on WWE television today.

I don't think so there are still very good storylines. I think whole Long&Undertaker&Punk storyline is good, Ziggler&Maria storyline is still interesting and we're waiting for what will happen and I think there is really much effort to develop those storylines.

What other storylines do you see on WWE television? I remember a time when essentially everyone on the roster was given something to do back in the good old days. Taking measures like that guarantees to stimulate much more interest with the audience as opposed to throwing a bunch of faceless personalities out in the ring. Although to WWE's credit, they seem to be working on this aspect with trying to develop the personalities of some stars. However, their efforts leave a lot more to be desired with well over 50% of the roster.

Now, we want to talk about storylines, and we mentioned those two storylines, which seem to be the only two on WWE television today. And what happened on Smackdown this week? They didn't even do a damn thing with Maria and Ziggler. Why isn't Maria accompanying Ziggler to the ring? She did before. What changed? These are the kinds of things WWE does that makes not a shred of sense whatsoever.

They have no other chance how can you expect a meaningful feud in a 2 week develop time. They have 12-13 PPVs in a year and they have to fill those cards to sell. You can't blame Vince for that it wasn't his choice to increase the amount of 3 hour PPVs. But there are still very good feuds in WWE. Cm Punk and Jeff Hardy feud is the last good example of it.

Well, I am going to be frank, that's WWE's problem, not mine.

How can you make an asinine allegation that "it wasn't Vince's choice to increase the amount of PPV's"? Whose decision was it, then? Was it the Ghost of Vince McMahon, Sr.?

It is Vince's fault. His decision ... His fault.

But Vince hasn't done a 12 year PPV for a number of years now. It has been 13-14 for several years. He could very well cut them back to 12, to eliminate the feeling that each of his shows are no longer infomercials. I absolutely hate the fact that as soon as one PPV ends, then the very next Raw/Smackdown, they are talking about the next PPV. It makes it look like the PPV's essentially mean nothing anymore. As soon as one is done, we go immediately onto the next one.

WWE's doing great job on this one too. Just look at how great Punk's persona has become. Not only that since his injury Edge has been building up as a face by Jericho. Zack Ryder is an another good example he becomes a very good heel from a useless fake Edge. So I don't see any problem in this.

Only recently has WWE made more of an effort into developing personalities. My question was "Where has WWE been the past several years?" All they would essentially do was take two wrestlers who never talk on the mic, thrown them out there and wrestle, and expect the audience to care. Complete, utter laziness.

Punk has been developed just fine.

Ryder has been developed just fine.

And I agree with you that Edge is terrible, as a Heel. Same song and dance with him for years.

Let's talk about people that aren't or have not been developed until their new push at attempting to develop talent, though:

Chris Masters
DH Smith
Tyson Kidd
Cody Rhodes
Ted Dibiase, Jr.
Shelton Benjamin
Charlie Haas
Mike Knox
Tyler Reks
Gail Kim
Eve Torres
Natalya
Paul Burchill
Katie Lea
Goldust
Cryme Tyme
Festus
Layla
Eve Torres

Commentary is not as entertaining as it was back with JR&Lawler and Moonson&Heenan but it's not a big factor isn't it ?

I think it is a major factor. The Commentary really sets the tone for the entire show. Commentary can turn a good show into a bad one, or vice versa if it is good enough. Commentary plays a critical factor in the "entertainment" and overall presentation of the show.

Apparently Vince thinks it's important, otherwise he wouldn't be screaming in the ears of his commentators and feeding them lines, or breathing down their neck the entire show.

Because general managers have taken this role right now instead of managers authority figures are the ones that makes matches so there is no need for them anymore and Vince got rid off them.

Ringside managers are completely different than Authority figures. Ringside managers are not and were not Authority figures. They do not participate in talking on behalf of wrestlers, and they most certainly are not at ringside each week interfering in the matches and taking bumps.

Fact of the matter is that I have yet to hear one acceptable excuse for why they are no longer around, when they brought so much entertainment to the product with their unique personalities and antics.

We can't judge this decision personally. Tag team division is one of the most entertaining things about wrestling but if it makes no more money and people don't care about it it's a wise business decision to get rid off it. Vince knows what makes money better than us and tag team wrestling probably not making much money.

You seem very timid in questioning anything Vince McMahon does. Again, this shows that you are a fan that enjoys being spoon fed what Vince tells you. Fans who do this, I hate to say it, come across as mindless.

Tag Team Wrestling sells about as much as the Midcard. It is a component of the program. It is a component that provides a breather in between singles matches, so you aren't simply seeing one singles match after another. In other words, these matches contribute to the entire undercard.

As far as making money, you make money (to be perfectly blunt) by putting out a good product that entertains the audience. And this is just one more factor that I harp on with Vince giving his audience the same ol' same ol' ever week. Nothing but one singles match after another.

They even have a brand to develop talents. I'm sick and tired of everybody saying why is RAW's main event stale because there are still no one ready to replace Cena,Orton and Triple H.

You need to understand something. That is NOT OUR PROBLEM. That is Vince's problem.

Explain to me why nobody else is ready to replace Cena, Orton, and Triple H? What has Vince been doing the past several years?

It's called holding people accountable. In the world of business, you hold people accountable for their job performance. And clearly, someone wasn't doing their job. Not only were future Main Eventers not being groomed these past several years, however the Mid Card wasn't being groomed either. So my question is, what has WWE been doing all these years? Not having people ready is not an acceptable excuse.

Other than that WWE's doing a very good job to develop talent. Zack Ryder and Sheamus seem to have some potential inside,Christian is the best thing on ECW,Kofi Kingston is probably one of the best US champions ever,Jack Swagger and The Miz are still not ready for ME but probably be in future,DX put over Legacy and still trying to put them over,Morrison is very near to become a huge star and Dolph Ziggler will be a huge star in the future. Maybe other than Swagger and The Miz all of these wrestlers that I've listed are getting very good pushes and when they're ready they will in ME scene.

Like I said, WWE not focusing on its Midcard until rather recently was their biggest problem all these years. If you don't focus on the Midcard, then you aren't going to develop Main Eventers. Someone finally woke up at the flight deck and figured out the issue. And I will give credit, in that their efforts at focusing on the Midcard have been very noticeable as of late. Again, though, my question is "why did it take years for the company to finally realize this"?

I will tell you. Because again, Vince is too hands on with the product. When your hands are too involved in one component of the company, you begin to lose touch with the big picture. And to be honest, I doubt Vince sits back and watches TV most weeks after it has been done. He watches it backstage as it is unfolding live, but after that, he's done with it. Unfortunately, he is trying to concentrate on too many things at once, that he does not see the same product that the viewers see at home.

We talk about Developing Talent .... and this applies backstage as well to Creative positions. What he should be doing is sitting back, watching the product on a monitor (the same product that his television viewers see at home), taking an abundance of notes, wait for the ratings breakdowns to be released, and then going over all of his notes each and every week with his daughter. Then, he should be holding her accountable for the results.

Instead, Vince himself is considered to be the Lead Writer of Creative. So, is the Man going to hold himself accountable for his own performance? If so, how?

Isn't it great you have more choices about the product. For example RAW's been probably the most boring show since draft so I prefer watching SD. Nobody is telling us that to watch 4 of the shows. I've never watched an episode of Superstars in my life.

I am all for choices in the product, as you can see by my signature. I am simply for products that can be able to be distinguished between one another. And in order to do that, it is the Casual Fans that have to clearly see a difference between one show and the rest.

Certainly, the IWC can tell the differences between Raw, Smackdown, and ECW, however I seriously doubt that Casual Fans can point out what those differences are. Fact is that each of the shows have the same look and feel as the other shows, each and every week. Therefore, in the mind of the viewer, it is interpreted as over-exposure.

It wasn't Vince's decision. How can you blame Vince for it ?

Out of curiosity, whose decision do you think it was to expand the number of PPV's and to raise the prices?

Because at least I still love the product and it's enough for me to defend Vince and WWE. Even you still find something that is interesting about wrestling if you didn't you wouldn't still watch it. People still love wrestling and it's the reason WWE still exist. Just because bunch of morons on internet(No offense to you or particular someone) it doesn't mean that people are bored and tired of wrestling.

I think people watch wrestling out of force of habit, as indicated in another thread on here.

But WWE doesn't make a dime off of me, anymore. They have the potential to, but not at this stage.

I attended more events in a year than probably most people attended in 5 years (I traveled quite a bit), however I don't go to the shows anymore.

I used to purchase every single monthly PPV since 1990, however I don't purchase any PPV's anymore because I am not thrilled with the product to do so.

WWE has lost quite a large amount of fans over the years for some reason or another. So, I can understand the need for wanting to build a new audience. Is that working, though?

Are kids flocking to the WWE like candy? Is it attracting new adults, as well by offering things that match their interests of most adults?

I'm not a Vince fan. Why should I be but I respect what he's done for this business that's why I've been defending him from the start of discussion. Without him you maybe wouldn't have experienced those great days that you said.

Well, in that case, you are a Vince fan.

You see, I have grown out of that particular stage of being a blind loyalist. Vince is just a man ... and a man who's success has mostly been determined by luck, for reasons that have been discussed.

I judge Vince McMahon's performance in the Here and Now. I don't allow my opinion to be formulated by what he did 30 years ago. And that is the fair way of judging someone, by examining their current performance.

If there was a CEO of a company who did great things for the company 30-40 years ago, but began losing his touch in the present, do you think the Shareholders would tolerate it?

People are addicted to wrestling because they always find something entertaining about wrestling. It's that simple. People watch wrestling because they entertain. You might not like it anymore but people still like it it's that simple.

People are addicted to wrestling more so out of force of habit, more than anything. It was a large part of people's childhoods, and some simply can not give it up. People watch wrestling even when it doesn't entertain, to be frank. However, that doesn't mean that they make money off these people anymore. They have the opportunity to, and people don't want to abandon wrestling altogether. But they need something more than what Vince has been offering these past couple years, as there are a lot of disgruntled fans these days.

However, like I said, TNA offers a product that is much more reflective of my interests than WWE. Makes me upset as I've been a WWE fan for so long, and it disappoints me some of the things the company has done (or not done) these past several years. However, my hope is that this negativity does spread around the Internet, and people lose interest in the product. That is the best thing that could happen to WWE. That and TNA becoming legitimate competition, which probably isn't going to happen, unfortunately.

People are not masochists. No one watches a show if they don't like.

LOL. Yes, they apparently do.

You maybe watch it because of your loyalty for wrestling but people don't.

So I am not a person?

As for IWC they just don't know what they want whatever WWE tries to do they find something to complain so it's impossible to satistify them. But as for majority of fans they still love and enjoy wrestling business and there are more wrestling fans watching those shows each day.

I listen to the IWC in the things they complain about. However, unlike WWE, I listen to what they are saying. And for the most part, most of them are saying the same things.

I know these particular fans feel a sense of loyalty towards WWE, however the WWE/F they knew and loved is dead. I can not emphasize to these fans enough that if they would watch TNA with open eyes and give it an honest chance, they would be more happy watching that product than watching any WWE program on the air today. And I am primarily gearing this towards disgruntled Attitude Era fans that don't want to abandon watching wrestling entirely.

If Attitude Era fans who want to remain wrestling fans, have to pick one company over the other ... then they are going to be more happy with TNA than WWE. Hell, now they even have the same writers as the WWF in the Attitude Era. So, it's a true blessing for those fans who are unhappy with the WWE. They simply have got to get these mental blocks that "I have to be loyal to WWE" and "TNA is second rate" out of their heads.

 

[Ambiguous Turd]

Sidious, I'll prelim my reply by stating a few things... For starters, the majority of my replies are not a personal attack on you. It's on the negative smarks on the internet. You just so happen to be one of their biggest members.

And I'm proud to stand up for the things I believe in.

Secondly, you speak as if Vince need to cater to you and your opinions. The majority of your views are no one's but your own, and that is why you anger people at times (and I know you don't care, so no need to reiterate that again). I see that you have very valid points, but your close-minded views are easily disagreeable. There is a much wider audience out there than you and your buddies that are around the same age as you. Besides, the majority of the WWE's "flaws" that you mention cater to the Attitude Era of the WWE. It's been said so many times before... ATTITUDE IS DEAD SO MOVE ON.

The thing is that I am not necessarily looking to see the Attitude Era replicated on Raw. That would be nice, however what I really advocate is something totally different. It may have some Attitude Era elements involved, such as profanity, controversial topics, sexuality, etc. but it would not be done in the way the Attitude Era was done.

And as I've said for a long time now, Smackdown would be a throwback to 80's and early 90's wrestling in my vision, and ECW would either be a cruiserweight program or an ROH-style program, that pretty much only features wrestling. The brand would be renamed, of course, and would be for a niche audience.

So no, I dispute that I am solely looking to be catered to. If that were the case, I wouldn't be asking for the ECW product I just described, as it doesn't interest me.

However, I do recognize that WWE needs to do something completely different to keep fans entertained, than what they ever have done before. Fans are absolutely dying to see something new out of the company. I simply stand behind my ideas, as they are bound to have something for everyone.

Not only that, but even fans who may enjoy one particular show are bound to be entertained by each of the shows, as each one would offer something completely different, so you wouldn't feel like you are watching the same show with the same feel each and every week.

So no, I dispute that I am simply looking to be catered to myself. My plan is designed to appeal to all wrestling fans, but more importantly, increase the wrestling fanbase by aggressively targeting new fans by going after the very things that interest their age brackets, and incorporating them into a wrestling program.

I still feel the same way. This website opened my eyes to many other things and a lot of new knowledge, but my views on the negativity-wildfire that is spreading in the IWC will never change. Nothing personal, but in my eyes, you are one of it's biggest culprits.

Thank you. Like I said, I take pride in standing up for my beliefs.

Like I said earlier, nothing personal. I respect your opinions as well, but I also feel they are extremely close-minded, stubborn, and self-indulgent. You may say the same thing about me. That's why this is a debate, and a damn good one at that.

I can be closed-minded as I have a lot of confidence in my opinions. I am definitely stubborn. Self-indulgent, I would disagree with, because as I said, what I advocate is not only something for everyone with the goal in mind of increasing the audience, but also a greater variety of the product for the current fans to keep them entertained each week.

One of the biggest complaints I hear out of fans is that they feel they are watching the same show across the board each week. I couldn't agree more with them. Which is why I feel the company needs to have a different outlook on how they do their product. This isn't just with the goal in mind of pleasing me. Rather, the whole fanbase, with the goal in mind of attracting more viewers and bringing them into the fanbase.

This is exactly why I used the phrase "Bad apples spoiling the bunch." Negativity outweighs positivity in all aspects of life. Just like when you can't remember the last time your boss gave you a compliment, but you sure as hell can remember the last time they reprimanded you.

Positivity is easily overlooked but negativity is extremely influencial. The more the internet smarks like yourself spread your message of how "everything sucks" in the wrestling world, the more it will spread like a disease and will tear the wrestling world apart. Whenever I go to a live event, I can always point out the internet smarks... they're the ones ruining the show for me. You should all wave the next time you're on camera.

Negativity can be destructive, and it can definitely spread. I am consciously aware of that when I post. This may come as a surprise to you, but that is the goal. It is a form of reaching out to other fans who either feel the same way, or are on the fence about the current product.

Let me make it perfectly clear .... I want the negativity to spread. I myself question what effect the IWC has on the business. Sometimes, I see its influence with a decision WWE can make. Other times, I do not see its influence. One can only hold out hope, though.

The more negativity that spreads, as far as I'm concerned, ultimately the better. As the saying goes ... "There is a light at the end of the tunnel." And where as it may seem like people such as myself are bringing a dark cloud over the wrestling business, it only is as far as the current state of the business. What I want to really see is a thriving wrestling business with enthusiastic fans, sold out events, etc. However, it simply is not going to happen in its current state, because it isn't innovative enough. The product requires a much greater effort put into it than what is currently being done.

So the End Game is the goal of it actually being a positive for wrestling fans, not a negative one.

Your opinions are always welcome. How can anyone improve anything without a touch of criticism? It's the way we all make ourselves better. But normally when someone criticises something, they see at least a shred of positivity and a chance that it will get better. I don't feel your criticism carries that underlying positivity. You bounce from thread to thread, complaining about the product because it doesn't work for YOU.

Just like my moniker says "I tell it like it is". And that is my own personal tribute to the great Jesse "The Body" Ventura. I call things exactly the way that I see them. I don't sugar coat anything whatsoever. I praise the WWE when it does good. I criticize and complain when it does not. So therefore, one can conclude that no, I don't feel that the company has done a whole lot of good as of these past several years. Hell, even Vince was frustrated with his very own product. What does that tell you?

However, I have complimented WWE for one large step they have taken in the right direction. That being their re-emphasis on the Midcard, and making the Midcard titles actually mean something again. That is the ONLY way you are going to develop Midcard talent into the Main Event. You have to be investing time into all parts of the roster ... not just the Main Event. And for someone who has ran his own wrestling company for damn near 3 decades, it is inexcusable why Vince McMahon seemed to forget that these past several years.

Ok, we get it. You don't like the current product. Now that we've established that for the millionth time, how about you try watching it and finding good things to talk to people about. It's easy to sit in a corner and criticise everything. But you need to balance it out with some POSITIVE views of the product because they actually exist. If not, you just sound like a bitching, moaning, negative, emo child contemplating suicide. "Everything sucks... this world is going nowhere... I want to die..." I can barely remember the last time you actually complimented something that had to do with the WWE product. And when you did, it was such a backhanded compliment that it made me roll my eyes and wonder if you find anything in your life to be enjoyable.

I did compliment them on the Midcard emphasis, like I just said. However, I've said that several times on this forum ... not just now.

They are doing a good job ensuring that each of their title holders are being placed into feuds with people.

I also compliment the fact that Vince is spending time on Smackdown to try and help that Brand out. He's treated that show like an unwanted stepchild for too long now. However, I do know that a lot of fans are unhappy to see Vince appearing on the show, because it takes away time from the matches.

These fans, I feel, are actually the real selfish, greedy fans. Because these fans, are the true fans that are ruining wrestling. Not people like me.

These are the fans that expect 5 star, PPV quality matches for free on weekly TV each and every week. This, in turn, takes anyway any and all excitement from where they should be seeing those quality matches, on the PPV's. The whole goal in wrestling should be to build towards something. What good does it do to have CM Punk battle the Undertaker on Smackdown, only to have CM Punk battle the Undertaker again on PPV? If anything, talents wrestling on PPV should be kept as far apart from each other in the ring as possible leading up to the PPV, so that people actually want to see the confrontation/battle between the two. But that isn't enough for these fans. Those are the fans you should really be looking at for hurting the business. Not people like me.

We don't drink "Vince Kool-Aid."

Give me a break. There are so many Kool-Aid drinking Vince fans, they actually drink it by the pitcher.

We simply overlook all of the negative aspects of the current program and continue to appreciate Vince for what he's always done for us... entertain. No matter how many holes the WWE gets buried in, they always climb out. Vince is always the one leading the charge. If it weren't for him, not even YOU would enjoy wrestling as much as you do.

As I alluded to earlier, Vince is not the God he is made out to be. His biggest accomplishment was taking his father's very own company that was handed to him on a silver platter, national. Hulk Hogan came along and became a pop culture icon, which brought more fame to Vince's product.

Vince has the fortune of being in a field of business other business executives want no part of. He enjoys his success primarily due to lack of competition. So in many ways, he enjoys his success by default.

The one time when serious competition came along, he was almost put out of business.

As for Vince "dictating what he wants to the audience," you seem to forget that pro-wrestling is nothing more than a television show with characters, storylines, and plots. Writers on all television shows create 'bad guys,' 'good guys,' and potential storyline plots. We, as an audience, can choose whether we want to cheer the bad guy and boo the good guy or vice versa. But in the end, we're watching a television show. It's drama... television shows that are created by writers that want to manipulate your emotions by creating an enactment of a fictitious plot. Writers for television shows on ALL platforms do EXACTLY what Vince does when he helps to write a wrestling storyline. So there's no need to complain about this anymore. Make your choice as to who you're going to cheer and boo... it's your right as an audience member with free will.

You totally missed the point of my comments, as they have nothing to do with what you just described ... in regard to "who to cheer" and "who to boo".

And nor "did I forget that pro-wrestling is nothing more than a television show with characters, storylines, and plots."

Quite the contrary, if you look at my posts more closely, I have targeted my attacks on the current product and Vince not doing enough to focus on those very things you just listed.

This is what drives me nuts about you. You constantly label yourself with terms like "patriot" to look 'holier than thou.' But what makes you a "patriot"? If you define patriot you'll find this:

patriot - one who loves and defends his or her country

Obviously, we're not talking about a country. But if you're a patriot, that means you're defending something. What are you defending?? If anything, you're the antonym of a patriot... or a traitor.

What I am defending is the idea of expanding the floration of the wrestling business. I am not necessarily a patriot or defender of WWE. In other words, whatever WWE does, I am not necessarily going to agree to go along with it, simply because it's "WWE" or Vince McMahon's will.

My ideas are both a mixture of traditional views, as well as progressive ones. I like variety. However, the "variety" of today is not visible to the naked eye of casual fans, and is simply not enough to differentiate the programming.

Good for you and the rest of the negative smarks out there. But like I said earlier, the WWE isn't aiming to entertain YOU. They aim to entertain children. You're too old to understand so maybe you should just turn the product off. If you want to watch a product with immoral, borderline-offensive, racy storylines, then turn on TNA. Last night's broadcast had Kevin Nash in a backstage segment with a couple of midgets, speaking of slapstick subjects that could easily be confused as sexual innuendos. Storylines and segments like that no longer have a place in the WWE.

Do you like being entertained by watching a program geared towards "children"? In other words, do you feel your own interests are comparable to that of a child?

As far as watching TNA, I do watch TNA, and I certainly find Impact far more entertaining than anything I see coming out of the WWE these days. I have encouraged fans of the Attitude Era to give TNA an honest chance, without turning their nose down at it, simply because it isn't affiliated with the WWE, because it is a product more geared towards adults, and adult interests.

I can only hope that these fans can give up their convictions that "If a wrestling organization isn't called WWE, then it isn't worth my time."

At the same time, I want to see the type of product that I advocate be successful and in the mainstream, and I am not convinced that Dixie Carter has what it takes to pull that off. She has better writers than WWE, but the changes that need to take place in TNA requires more work on her end, not the writers.

I understand your pain. And I agree that everyone's responses are just ignorant and incorrect. But those criticisms are not coming from the mouths of the demographic that the WWE is aiming to entertain. So if you guys don't like it, then that's just too bad. Once again, Attitude Era is OVER. The PG Era is in and it's not going anywhere. No need to bitch and moan about thing you cannot or will not ever control. All you're doing to getting others to drink YOUR Kool-Aid, and this is hurting the business that you (supposedly) and I love.

Once again, you are tripping over your own thought process. If my words are so negative, and you are so concerned about negativity spreading ... but then turn around and say that "we won't ever influence the direction that WWE goes in", then what honestly are you so concerned about? If people like me are inconsequential, like you just implied, then you have nothing to worry about.

You know what you need to do? You need to use a little feature called the Ignore button under your User CP. And you need to use it for everyone like me. That way, people like us can't ruin the product for you, like you earlier stated. Problem solved.

You aren't ever going to change my basic views and philosophies towards the business. It is possible to change my beliefs towards some minor things, however not my main philosophies with how the business should be ... because again, what I advocate is offering each key demo something that pleases them. Everyone is happy, and you get to maximize your profits from each of the demos by being able to cater to them. That is the common sense way of doing things, as opposed to trying to tell adults that they should find entertaining the same exact thing that is specifically geared towards a child.

Therefore, the Ignore button is your best option.

Let's face it, he IS the best professional wrestling promoter in the world, so I would say this is valid to an extent. But to somewhat of a greater extent you're absolutely right. The best answer for this is the fact that only the AUDIENCE knows best... but the only audience that matters is the audience that the WWE is AIMING to please, and that doesn't include you and me.

You seem quite happy with the product, so I would argue that maybe you are part of the audience they are trying to please.

However, you are an adult, and I am an adult. You are happy with it. I am not. So somewhere there is a breakdown because we are probably in the same age demo, yet are both fans of wrestling.

WWE is simply trying to please a very broad audience, which is something virtually no other industry attempts to do, because they know it is basically impossible to do so through one product. That is why in television, pretty much 99% of all programming is specifically targeted with one key demo in mind, as opposed to throwing out a generic product for anyone who is interested.

By only offering a PG rated program, this is holding certain superstars back, who would be far more marketable if they had more flexibility and could offer more to the table if they had that flexibility. Take Stone Cold Steve Austin for instance. One of the top two drawing stars in WWE history. The man would have NEVER been able to have that distinction had he not had a TV-14 rating to rely on. So to detractors of TV-14 programming, who were fans of Steve Austin, you should keep that in mind. No Attitude Era .... no Steve Austin to go along with it, then. You could have simply erased him from your memory.

There are other stars out there that could bring similar entertainment to the table IF they had the greater flexibility to work with, and thus be able to entertain the audience more. But they can't, as they are restricted with working in the confines of the rating.

Wow... this is such an ignorant and pompous statement. What difference does it REALLY make why people watch the product?? I find that they enjoy the product and defend it because, well, they ENJOY it. Labeling wrestling fans as people that practice "blind loyalty" and saying they are "addicted" to the product just makes you seem like you're sitting on some kind of high-horse and you're better than them because you're capable of pointing out it's flaws. It's just a ridiculous analysis of our wrestling fans, and quite frankly, I find it offensive.

I don't care if you find it offensive. I say I am going to "Tell it Like it Is" so that means I am going to do just that. I don't aim to please people like you by simply telling you what you want to hear. Rather, I am going to speak my mind and in doing so, speak the honest truth.

There are other threads and other posters who have stated the same exact thing on this forum.

People watch out of habit, even though they aren't thrilled with the program. Take a look at the Live Discussion Threads, even.

It's just like Smoking. You know the product is bad, but you can't help it, and thus continue using the product, because you are addicted to it.

Vince enhanced an existing form of entertainment for everyone. He took a gamble and it paid off. But that's what EVERY television show does. They brainstorm and create a product that will generate revenue. Some call it luck... some call it well-executed... some call it genius. Either way, for you to sit there and downplay what Vince has done for the business just because it conveniently supports your negativity is absolutely ridiculous. It's not like Vince bet on red at a blackjack table. SO many factors go into what was needed to be done to get professional wrestling to where it is today. A very intelligent business man put all of those factors together in a formula that worked in the television market. And it's easy to sit back and criticise him when he fucks up... nobody's perfect.

The funny thing is that if Vince himself came on here, he would probably downplay his success, as well, and chalk it up more to both luck and simple hard work.

I told the story of a friend of mine who was a long time merchandiser with the company that passed away, who tried to pay Vince a compliment in a meeting with him. He told Vince that he was a genius, yet Vince disagreed with him, and told him that he simply has common sense, and has been very lucky. And Vince is right in that description.

Those that worship and idolize the man because he simply put out a product that has entertained the audience, are still negating the fact that what I speak is the truth. He has been very lucky.

He was fortunate enough to inherit his father's company.
He was lucky enough that someone like Hulk Hogan came around.
He was lucky that other than one time, he's had no serious competition to ever compete with him.
He is lucky to have a niche product that no other business people in Corporate America want to be a part of, because the business is viewed so negatively.
He was lucky to have Russo and Ferrara to come around to provide him with a completely different vision for the product during the only time he was seriously challenged by his only major competition.

Look at everything else Vince has tried outside of wrestling. All of it ... and I do mean EVERYTHING, from:

WBF
WWE New York
XFL
WWE Studios
WWE Hotel and Casino

ALL of it has been colossal failures. So yes, Vince McMahon is both lucky and fortunate.

One subject I will ALWAYS agree with you on is the subject of competition. There is none in the wrestling market right now. We've all gone over this before. And if you believe Vince is taking a lackadaisical approach to storylines, midcard talent, tag teams, etc. then you may be correct to an extent. But remember that competition brings out the very best in everyone, therefore we aren't going to see Vince's best until someone rises to the challenge in the same way that WCW did in the past. But, I don't feel that we're seeing his worst, either.

I honestly feel this is the Worst Era in WWE History. I have never seen a more stale product in all my years than what I see today.

I agree with you on the competition front. And I also agree that what is best for a healthy wrestling business is both variety, and competition. And that is honestly why I wish fans would give TNA a chance. I can guarantee that fans of the Attitude Era will be more happy with what they see on Impact today, as opposed to Raw.

Once again, great point. But the only ones bitching and moaning are the ones that grew up. The audience that the WWE is trying to entertain is not a part of the bitching, moaning, internet community. And the feedback we provide for them falls on deaf ears because they don't care about our age bracket. They are breeding the new group of fans, and those fans do not include us. This new group of fans outnumbers us by the THOUSANDS, but in any war you need to make sacrifices. I feel that Vince is thinking that if longevity and future profits in his business will be gained by losing fans of the Attitude Era and the older demographic, then so be it. We're just gonna have to get over it, aren't we?

Do you think that Vince is going to keep the kids happy with this type of product, once they grow up? Just like other adults, once they grow up, they will lose interest with it, because the product doesn't do enough to match their interests, and off they'll go onto other things that does.

Now, as far as changing the product a few years down the road, I simply have to remind you that in your own words "The Attitude Era is dead", remember. So The PG Era is evidently intended to be here forever, according to you. So yes, I maintain that once kids mature, this type of product won't interest them, as they will actually have more adult interests that WWE can not offer them at this time.

Any time a business alienates a large group of potential fans, like what WWE is doing, they are only throwing their profits away.

And that is exactly why I don't advocate solely a PG Era type of product, nor solely an Attitude Era type of product.

I'll repeat: He just isn't listening to you. There are many people on this website that are a BIG part of the IWC who enjoy the product and how they are being entertained today. Unfortunately, Sidious, you're the minority. You've been outvoted by the powers that be. But continuing your tirades and sermons about how you know how to make the product better and your word is gospel has got to change because it's poisoning fans on the internet and other fans that sit next to you during live events, listening to your negative conversations about the product.

Like I said, then you have nothing to worry about since fans like me are just in the minority and really can't do anything. Put me on Ignore, and let that be the end of it.

There is such a thing as Will of the People. If people agree with what I and others have to say, then they will join in and embrace our ideologies. If they reject what people like myself have to say, then they will simply reject what we have to say. You can't control people's will. Now, you can attempt to silence and censor people like me simply because I may say things you don't agree with, but that wouldn't be very American of you, now would it?

This paragraph just allowed me to gain some respect for your beliefs. It couldn't be closer to the truth. We all want to see crowds jumps out of their seats. We all want to be deafened by crowd pops. Maybe all of the correct elements aren't mixing right now, but they will eventually, so we all need to be patient.

Furthermore, in agreeance with you, there is no way that any problems can ever get fixed unless we all speak up about them. But you need to check yourself and ask yourself a question... in your conquest for molding the current product into your own personal euphoria, is it good for the majority of the business, or is it only good for you??

I think I made perfectly clear that the product I advocate is good for the majority of the business, not just myself, and I think I did a good job explaining why. Doing something like that has the goal in mind of bringing in more cash registers to the WWE product by actually expanding the fanbase by aggressively targeting the interests of each large key demo, not sending fans away and therefore, turning down potential company revenue.

You are simply upset because you like a certain product, and aren't happy with that product on just one or two shows. Rather, you have to have that same product on all 4 television programs. I would probably enjoy both Raw and Smackdown, with the vision I have in mind for each of those two programs, however wouldn't be a fan of the ECW I have in mind. However, that doesn't mean I completely disregard a potential revenue source and fanbase of a product like that, which is what you are doing. In other words, I am willing to make sacrifices for the good of the business and attracting more fans. You, however, are not. I would argue that people like you are the true selfish ones ... not people like me.

 

[The Gribbler]

You know...if you don't like the way the IWC is you really don't have to come online and read our bitching and complaining.

I agree we have ruined some of the best moments in wrestling by finding out about it and complaining non stop. I mean the whining and complaining never end, but it is our choice as members of the IWC to keep coming online.

If something you do mars your enjoyment of a product you watch ever week, you either put up with it or stop going online and finding things out.

Its the nature of the beast and people will not stop I can promise you that. Its in our nature to be unhappy with what we have; and people cant defeat human nature.

I am sorry to say but if the IWC is causing you to hate wrestling, then you really shouldn't be here. I come on here day after day and listen to peoples opinions and whilst the whining does get to me a little it doesn't stop me laughing and then going to watch RAW or Smackdown! and enjoying myself whilst I watch it.

I love wrestling and if this or any website stopped me from enjoying it...well then I would leave.

Just My Opinion

 

[THTRobtaylor]

I agree with this to an extent...

We as the IWC DID ruin wrestling, but not because we intended to... before the IWC, who knew about "repping, flaming, spamming, trolling...or cared about product, creative differences and suspensions..." I certainly didn't...

The IWC on the whole is made up of people who do not want to accept the truth about wrestling... that it is simply a soap opera... one based on physicality and stunt work but a soap none the less... somewhere along the line knowledge about this soap became cultural currency... thats the point that the poison was injected into wrestling...

At school I can remember knowing wrestlers real names, reading PWI and calling the hotlines... and when I first got access to compuserve, I found sites on wrestling... This was the early 1990's...then I became a wrestler and worked out I was part of an interactive show... a small one with an audience of 20, but still a "soap"...

I was "cool" to some cos I knew this stuff, but to many it was geeky and sad... I got the piss took a heck of a lot... I even got accused of shaking a fence like the Warrior after a fight I had at school... (I actually kicked it, after busting the kids nose in a headlock lol...)

But somewhere... EVERYONE became an expert without accepting this truth... Once Nitro and the screwjob hit, the IWC exploded... cos there was finally something people wanted to talk about... then the IWC became more about "mods and noobs and wrestling sucks" rather than just talking about wrestling our favourite TV PROGRAMME!...

The cultural currency became worthless... so how the hell can Vince be blamed if he wants to go back to selling ice cream bars and t-shirts to 8 year olds... rather than listening to us?

Those who say "why still come on?" , to you I say... I still come on cos wrestling means something to me and always will... far more than any IWC politics ever will... I will keep looking and posting my opinions, but I won't play the IWC game...

I will always be a wrestling fan... and will always want to talk to other wrestling fans... not to those who use it as a currency.

 

[The Incredible Mr. C]

I must admit that I am kind of torn on this issue. I honestly don't think there's anything that inherently "wrong" with WWE. I can also see the argument of the IWC doing more damage than good to the business.

From what I have seen on this forum, I seem to be at least 10 years older (and in many cases more) than most of the posters on here. This has nothing to do with anything, except to help explain my opinion a bit.

I have been watching wrestling for 30 years. I grew up on one of the greatest territories ever, World Class Championship Wrestling, here in Dallas, and watched it on local television EVERY Saturday night.

When cable finally came into our neighborhood, I immediately began watching WWF and NWA programming. Until then, I honestly never knew of anything except WCCW. Keep in mind, this was when I was about 10 years old, an age at which most of you had internet access in your home.

Long story short, in my 30 years of being a fan, I have seen a lot of things I liked, and a lot of things I didn't like in wrestling. It's that way with any form of entertainment.

I'm also a huge Dallas Cowboys fan, and I loved the Super Bowl years with Troy Aikman, Emmitt Smith, and Michael Irvin. I hated the early 2000's with the revolving door at quarterback, featuring such stellar names as Quincy Carter, Clint Stoerner and Chad Hutchinson. What does this have to do with wrestling?

Either way, I was still a fan, and still tuned in.

Now, if I had the forum, if you will, to air my gripes about silly characters like Abe "Knuckleball" Schwartz and Duke "The Dumpster" Droese, I probably would have. But I also would have praised the moments and characters I truly enjoyed, guys like Mr. Perfect, Paul Orndorff and Roddy Piper (yeah, I was always into the heels).

The thing I have to remember is that a lot of the posters here have grown up with the internet, and in turn have grown up with wrestling websites. Perhaps many members of the IWC simply don't know anything different than reading the sites in addition to watching the shows. I do think that is a shame. I don't think something like Mr. Wonderful turning on Hulk Hogan would have had the same impact for me if I had already known it was going to happen.

Since I have been reading these websites, it seems to me like there is a LOT of bitching about this and that. But in an era where everyone has a public forum, it's to be expected.

I had seen for a long time many people saying, "Oh, the old guys need to put over younger guys," and "WWE needs to try to create new stars."

So, what happens at the last pay per view, Breaking Point? Old guys Triple H and Shawn Michaels put over Cody Rhodes and Ted DiBiase, possible new stars. I come here to these forums to find a whole boatload of people who don't like that either. Many said, "Well, they're not pushing the RIGHT new guys." Are they really expecting a phone call from Vince on who should be pushed? It's not gonna happen. At least it's new guys. But you gotta have something to bitch about, right?

It seems like to me that it's just "the thing to do" nowadays if you're a wrestling fan on the internet... bitch about anything and everything. And for some reason a whole lot of people don't seem happy unless they are bitching about something.

I also think it has a whole lot to do with the society we live in, an "instant gratification" type of deal. WWE already knows, for the most part, barring injuries and the like, what they are doing for Wrestlemania. We all just have to show the patience for them to get there. Maybe it will lead to that one angle that makes it cool to be a wrestling fan again. You never know when it will happen.

I'm not gonna sit here and pretend I know more about any of this than anyone else here (even though I just might). I won't pretend I know what's better for WWE than Vince McMahon, because he worked his butt off to make it such a successful company and at least a sometimes entertaining getaway for all of us. I will give my opinion if it strikes me, however.

My opinion is that while the IWC sure doesn't do a lot to help WWE, it certainly is not what's wrong with WWE, as I personally don't see a lot "wrong" with WWE. Do I love everything that happens? No. Do I wish some new talent would be given more of a chance? Of course. Wrestling is a crazy business that has ups and downs as far as creativity, star power and sheer money making ability. I have been through a lot of those ups and downs in 30 years.

Unfortunately, I do worry that the next time there is a huge upswing, and trust me, there will be, people will still find something to bitch about instead of just sitting back and enjoying the ride.

 

[D-Man]

I must admit that I am kind of torn on this issue. I honestly don't think there's anything that inherently "wrong" with WWE. I can also see the argument of the IWC doing more damage than good to the business.

From what I have seen on this forum, I seem to be at least 10 years older (and in many cases more) than most of the posters on here. This has nothing to do with anything, except to help explain my opinion a bit.

I have been watching wrestling for 30 years. I grew up on one of the greatest territories ever, World Class Championship Wrestling, here in Dallas, and watched it on local television EVERY Saturday night.

When cable finally came into our neighborhood, I immediately began watching WWF and NWA programming. Until then, I honestly never knew of anything except WCCW. Keep in mind, this was when I was about 10 years old, an age at which most of you had internet access in your home.

Long story short, in my 30 years of being a fan, I have seen a lot of things I liked, and a lot of things I didn't like in wrestling. It's that way with any form of entertainment.

I'm also a huge Dallas Cowboys fan, and I loved the Super Bowl years with Troy Aikman, Emmitt Smith, and Michael Irvin. I hated the early 2000's with the revolving door at quarterback, featuring such stellar names as Quincy Carter, Clint Stoerner and Chad Hutchinson. What does this have to do with wrestling?

Either way, I was still a fan, and still tuned in.

Now, if I had the forum, if you will, to air my gripes about silly characters like Abe "Knuckleball" Schwartz and Duke "The Dumpster" Droese, I probably would have. But I also would have praised the moments and characters I truly enjoyed, guys like Mr. Perfect, Paul Orndorff and Roddy Piper (yeah, I was always into the heels).

The thing I have to remember is that a lot of the posters here have grown up with the internet, and in turn have grown up with wrestling websites. Perhaps many members of the IWC simply don't know anything different than reading the sites in addition to watching the shows. I do think that is a shame. I don't think something like Mr. Wonderful turning on Hulk Hogan would have had the same impact for me if I had already known it was going to happen.

Since I have been reading these websites, it seems to me like there is a LOT of bitching about this and that. But in an era where everyone has a public forum, it's to be expected.

I had seen for a long time many people saying, "Oh, the old guys need to put over younger guys," and "WWE needs to try to create new stars."

So, what happens at the last pay per view, Breaking Point? Old guys Triple H and Shawn Michaels put over Cody Rhodes and Ted DiBiase, possible new stars. I come here to these forums to find a whole boatload of people who don't like that either. Many said, "Well, they're not pushing the RIGHT new guys." Are they really expecting a phone call from Vince on who should be pushed? It's not gonna happen. At least it's new guys. But you gotta have something to bitch about, right?

It seems like to me that it's just "the thing to do" nowadays if you're a wrestling fan on the internet... bitch about anything and everything. And for some reason a whole lot of people don't seem happy unless they are bitching about something.

I also think it has a whole lot to do with the society we live in, an "instant gratification" type of deal. WWE already knows, for the most part, barring injuries and the like, what they are doing for Wrestlemania. We all just have to show the patience for them to get there. Maybe it will lead to that one angle that makes it cool to be a wrestling fan again. You never know when it will happen.

I'm not gonna sit here and pretend I know more about any of this than anyone else here (even though I just might). I won't pretend I know what's better for WWE than Vince McMahon, because he worked his butt off to make it such a successful company and at least a sometimes entertaining getaway for all of us. I will give my opinion if it strikes me, however.

My opinion is that while the IWC sure doesn't do a lot to help WWE, it certainly is not what's wrong with WWE, as I personally don't see a lot "wrong" with WWE. Do I love everything that happens? No. Do I wish some new talent would be given more of a chance? Of course. Wrestling is a crazy business that has ups and downs as far as creativity, star power and sheer money making ability. I have been through a lot of those ups and downs in 30 years.

Unfortunately, I do worry that the next time there is a huge upswing, and trust me, there will be, people will still find something to bitch about instead of just sitting back and enjoying the ride.

This entire post basically sums up every thought that I have about the IWC and the current state of professional wrestling. Mr. C, I applaud you for everything that you posted here.

All in all, as much as I may not agree with people like Sidious, at least he's taking the time to watch, analyze, and give a shit about pro-wrestling. The most important issue that I was speaking about was whether the IWC was killing wrestling. I've come to realize that it's a double-edged sword... it's killing it at the same time that it's helping it to grow. Even though the readers of the IWC are growing up too quickly from seeing the inside information of the wrestling business which results in them tuning out quicker, there's also a legion of fans that wish to be smarks like most of us on here. Therefore, they come onto the sites, read our posts, soak up our knowledge, and spread their message to others.

So, what began 6 months ago as a rant wound up being a great lesson learned. I guess I was just worried that pro-wrestling was going to fade away soon and we were in the beginning stages of it all. I think I finally realize that each one of us has our place, our opinions, and our passion for the pro-wrestling business. As long as all of that exists, I can continue to be happy about the current state of wrestling because it proves that it isn't going anywhere anytime soon.