The unbiased, unbridled, naked truth about what's wrong with the WWE...

[Phoenix]

I give kudos to D-Man for giving a great first post, whilst I feel he has expressed himself thoroughly and backs himself up, I do agree that the fans and the bookers/product both contribute to the manner of why WWE doesn't feel like a great product right now.

A problem isn't usually narrowed down to one thing, but a number of reasons, I think these are the main reasons why WWE isn't going as great at the moment:
1. Fans
2. Writing/Changing Times
3. Outside Factors

1. Fans - as rightly stated by a number of previous posters and the OP, the fans have played a role in how the product has turned out. The attitude era was loved and respected greatly by fans between the ages of 10-30+ (approx), as the times went on, the popularity of wrestling dropped as elements of the attitude era phase out and WCW/ECW fell. With WWE taking over the other two companies, true fans of WCW and ECW refused to watch the WWE because they were loyal to their promotion to the end and they knew the WWE wouldn't ever be what WCW and ECW provided their fans, regardless of the fact they flopped in the end. Nowadays the rise of wrestling amongst kids (despite the fact they were a big part of audiences since the 90s) has lead to the WWE focusing on the kids, because in short - kids will want and buy products, they want the Cena style belt, they want the masks, etc. They're easy to sell because kids are driven by their want more than anything.

2. Writing/Changing Times - Simply put, WWE has pulled off alot of ridiculous plots, back in the Attitude era, they were accepted because it was meant to be OTT, we wanted fun and craziness, that's what the WWE gave us. By the time the Attitude Era passed, we were accepting more serious plots and and storylines, there was no need to be over the top, wrestling became serious again. Yet we saw factors of the Attitude era remain, the Katie Vick storyline, somewhat on par with Mae Young giving birth to a hand. Had this been in the attitude era, we would have accepted this as normal and part of the craziness, unfortunately it was 2 years too late and it became a crude story that we never forgive WWE for coming up with it. Likewise the internet isn't highly as used which affects the feel of things, back in 99 we didn't know of Austin's injury and the running over came as a total shock!

3. Outside factors - More than ever we have seen the effects of outside interference affecting the product; drugs, the Benoit tragedy, deaths, the government. The last time we saw the product being majorly affected by this was in 1994 with the steroid scandal that lead to Hulk Hogan losing favour with Vince and going to WCW. More than a decade on, the WWE is now affected by the double murder-suicide leading to the government watching ever closely over the product, leading to WWE going PG, keeping the product safe and keeping distance from the watchful eye of Congress as they would feel the WWE is raising eventual killers from steroid abuse. The WWE has purely responded with the Wellness Policy in full flow and the product being PG, they're keeping themselves safe.

Just my two cents, sorry for the essay.

 

[mrstlouis]

I agree man...the orginal poster is a total tool, and his brown nose follower yes-men. One of the many things I learned in life is, NUMBERS Never Lie! WWE Marks do! The wwe is in the worst shape since 2003 since the end of the attitude era. The ratings are going to continue to deterrate, until we drop this PG shit! To some of you clueless morons, how is the ratings doing lately!? Thought so. Going into the "biggest" event of the year, and the 25 anniversity none the less, you can't even pull a 2.0 on NETWORK TV!

The product is absolute shit, and is going to continue to dive south, like Monica on Bill Clinton....clueless marks! You are in the minority. Most people could care less about Wrestlemainia. PG era is going to kill WWE! For the love of Christ, build a new company Eric Bischoff! Vince made you look like a douch bag in WWE, time for a little payback.

no the only total tool is you & your ignorance . the orginal poster is 100% right about marks lilke you that have no idea what there talking about . also stop blaming p.g & get off Attitude Era's dick. P.g is not killing WWe.WWF started out PG. WWF original success was P.G not stupid ass lame wrestling Attitude Era.When hulk hogan was the biggest name in WWF in the early 80's it was all p.g. so shut up with that p.g. compalining bullcrap & stop living in sad ass chill hood called Attitude Era because the 80's were better in wrestling then the Attitude Era ever was. the Attitude Era is why we have short lame matches any more . see you are the minority. the majority likes what they see & are john cena fans .WWe is not even close to worst shape they ever been in. that was 1995/96 was the worst. how are the ratings deterrate when they have been the same for last 7 years . what do you mean that the could not even pull a 2.0 on NETWORK TV. raw has not even went under a 3.6 in the last year . if you are talking about smackdown then that does not count because that is not network tv . i don't get smackdown or mynetwork where i live & that is why the rating at not good for smackdown because not every one gets mynetwork or smackdown . so everything you said has been proven all wrong & just shows how ignorant you are to the wrestling business & its history .

 

[TheLittleOne]

Bold Statement: The WWE did not win the Monday Night Wars.
after the switch to the E bein on top of the monday night wars shortly after wm14, and then once the purchase of wcw..besides opinions, the settled fact is the WWE won the wars.
but this is false because during the war a typical example rating was 3.6 for Raw and 3.2 for Nitro.. well if wwe won, right now their ratings would be constant 6.6, or 7.0 but its never any where near that. where are the millions who tuned in to wcw, or did the wwe just lose half of their audience once mr.austin and rocky moved out west. its never been as popular since the andre vs hogan days,but it was f'n awesome and the watercooler talk at work during austin's time.. they need to do something damnit..something that gets Everyone talkin.john cena needs to throw birthday cake in the face of a ******ed 12 year old during a charity event! God that sounds so mean..but u get my point..

 

[Henry Hill]

a great point by someone who really knows what they are talking about. i've been thinking about the same thing for a long time, and wondering why it is that though we as fans profess to love this "sport" we completely go off on a wire in complaining about the production, the writers, the stars, hell i've even heard people complain about the damned ring crew at house shows in my hometown. If all us smarks hate this sport so much, why do we waste two hours every monday and friday (for some of us thursday) and three hours on sunday? the answer because we don't hate it we love it. and we've been further corrupted by the cynicism of mark madden and disco inferno who tear down everything about the current state of wrestling claiming that they know so much, but arent employed anymore because of this person or that person or they're "above it." thanks again d man for a post finally pointing the finger at someone who can actually make a change and actually start enjoying themselves.

 

[GamerAsh]

It was US. WE RUINED IT. Everyone that jumps onto an IWC website to read spoilers… everyone that begins chants at live events that spoil the show’s results… everyone that holds up signs on TV that states when a wrestler is returning to television… everyone that visits the IWC websites and bashes the current product to kingdom come. It was the IWC that ruined wrestling.

It is impossible for fans to be surprised at a television show when all the surprises have been ruined by the internet. And if one person replies to this post with an ignorant statement like “The IWC is only 5%-10% of the entire wrestling community” then they’re proving my point. Their ignorance is a perfect example of how none of you realize that you’ve killed everything that professional wrestling could have been. You think that there are only 5% of us? Then how is it that for five weeks in a row (and in 5 different cities) does the ENTIRE audience of a live, televised event begin to chant Christian’s name after the IWC announced his rumored return to the WWE a day or two prior to the event?? How did everyone find out about Jericho’s return to the WWE, causing the return to become so flat and lackluster?? Why would someone watch Lost, 24, Heroes, or Prison Break if they already knew how the story was going to turn out? How can anyone enjoy a product if it has already been broken down and anticipated? Simply put… they wouldn’t watch it. And that’s where our ratings have gone.

.

Very well written, and thought out post. I agree with all of it, but the above quote grabbed my attention. The christian example was really good because everybody and their grandma's dog knew about it. However, I've noticed that leaks can also spoil a match due to the wrestlers reactions. For example: Bill Goldberg Vs. Brock Lesnar at WM20. Everybody knew the two were leaving the WWE, and they crowd constantly booed the both of them. Brock, and Goldberg didn't put on the match they could have done because of this reaction. Why would you wrestle your heart out for fans who are booing you for the wrong reasons? I was really hyped for that match, wrestlers leaving or not, and I was greatly disappointed because of the crowd.

Anyway, I really enjoyed reading your post, and I think you hit the nail on the head.

 

[ThePeoplesChampion]

I've been a lifelong wrestling fan since I was a young kid and ever since then and even know I can say I love this sport and the entertainment. I've followed wrestling for close to 30 years and have adapted to the product as the times have changed for better or for worse. Speaking for myself if I wasn't passionate about the product I can just say everything in WWE today is doing great but in reality it's not. WWE has seen better days obviously, but the fact that I can bitch and moan show's that I care about the lackluster product and I wish it would be better. For example I'm a Cubs fan now I love the team to death but when they lose close games or keep losing I'm going to bitch and say "Fucking Cubs suck, fuck em" because I care that much about the team I'm not going to be happy with losing all the time (100 plus years without winning the World Series). However I'm still a fan win or lose but as a die hard fan I think have the right to critique the product they put on the field. Same goes for WWE if I just stood there with a smile on my face and was happy with whatever they put on for us, as crappy as it is at times it wouldn't make me a true fan. Diehard fans observe the product and critique it good and bad but if you're happy with whatever they give us then good for you I guess if Kung FuNaki won the WWE title you'd be happy with that. As fans we are are entitled to our opinons. This is just mine speaking for myself.

Thats why you cheer for the White Soxs! ok ok just messing wit u i know how it is.....Im a huge Bears fan but unfornatly i was born in 1989 missing there super bowl and seeing them lose to one team i hate the most the colts . But i get the orginal posters point....yes we have i mean think bout it christan coming back and seemed like no excitement.....now i do read smackdown and ecw spoilers only because i dont have sci fi and well fridays to busy and i like to keep up on those shows too. Like this guy above me said too...yes we complain and its good too cause wwe will see this and try to do stuff to excite me.....granted i was bitching bout rex grossman as quaterback for the bears but they never got any one better but thats a different subject.....lets put it this way its us cheering for our favorite team to win the super bowl or pick up the right draft pick.....when ur team loses ur still a fan of them but i know ur sitting there sayin....God damn it! rex grossman u suck! are the BEars ******ed get rid his ass. I get the spoilers things though it ruins everything and the surprise of the show.....but honestly it hasnt been surprising since the attiude era.....yes we are to blame for the bad protect but its not just us but also wwe too. but i do see your point......and sorry bout ur cubbies man.....go white sox!

 

[Slyfox696]

It was US. WE RUINED IT. Everyone that jumps onto an IWC website to read spoilers… everyone that begins chants at live events that spoil the show’s results… everyone that holds up signs on TV that states when a wrestler is returning to television… everyone that visits the IWC websites and bashes the current product to kingdom come. It was the IWC that ruined wrestling.

I take offense to this statement, because making blanket accusations is about this is ridiculous.

The problem is not the Internet or the wrestling fans on the Internet. The problem lies with the people who are morons, not the people on the Internet. Would you like me to explain? Great.

It's the morons who come on to Internet sites, spoil the live show for themselves, and then bitch about it, not people in the IWC. I know for myself that I very much enjoy wrestling, even if I do know what will happen beforehand. Because, unlike those morons, I have learned that wrestling is not about "shock and awe", it's about entertainment, an aesthetic display of athleticism and acting. I can appreciate the scripts and the acting, even if I know what's going to happen, because I don't watch wrestling to be surprised, I watch it to be entertained.

Being a member of the IWC has nothing to do with not being able to appreciate wrestling, and for you to insinuate so is silly. When I go to live shows, I go to be part of the show, not above it. THOSE are the people at the live shows you are complaining about, the ones who try to act like they are above the show, not those in the IWC.

Trying to label any and everyone who posts or reads about wrestling on the Internet as the reason wrestling isn't successful is a foolhardy waste of time, and for all the effort you put into your post, I hope you use that same effort to comprehend how you are not correct. You are not necessarily wrong, as there are certainly those who do what you say and fall in the category you outlined, but to say people like me are the reason wrestling isn't good is insulting to every wrestling fan who understands that wrestling is about the aesthetic display of acting and athleticism, and not about shocking the audience...which is what so many people think should happen in wrestling because of the Attitude Era.

So, I'd ask that you revisit your position, and re-consider what it is that you said.

Incompetent!? Try a BS in Business. Im a hardcore wrestling fan man, just like you. For you to sit there and say Business in WWE is good, you are a tool! I'm a gambling man, RAW won't even pull a 3.5 this week, guarenteed.

You have a BS in Business, and you think that the only way to measure success is by the ratings a TV show does? Who the fuck do you think you are trying to kid?

Do you EVER read any of the yearly or quarterly financial reports the WWE releases? If you would, you'd see that, over the last several years, the WWE has done nothing but make more and more money. You'd also see that the WWE makes ZERO money off advertising, so their ratings really mean fuck all for their bottom line. Merchandising revenue increases, PPV business increases, and overall revenue has increased over the last several years.

For someone who claims to have a BS in Business, you sure don't appear to have a clue as to what you are talking about.

 

[GamerAsh]

I take offense to this statement, because making blanket accusations is about this is ridiculous.

The problem is not the Internet or the wrestling fans on the Internet. The problem lies with the people who are morons, not the people on the Internet. Would you like me to explain? Great.

It's the morons who come on to Internet sites, spoil the live show for themselves, and then bitch about it, not people in the IWC. I know for myself that I very much enjoy wrestling, even if I do know what will happen beforehand. Because, unlike those morons, I have learned that wrestling is not about "shock and awe", it's about entertainment, an aesthetic display of athleticism and acting. I can appreciate the scripts and the acting, even if I know what's going to happen, because I don't watch wrestling to be surprised, I watch it to be entertained.

Being a member of the IWC has nothing to do with not being able to appreciate wrestling, and for you to insinuate so is silly. When I go to live shows, I go to be part of the show, not above it. THOSE are the people at the live shows you are complaining about, the ones who try to act like they are above the show, not those in the IWC.

Trying to label any and everyone who posts or reads about wrestling on the Internet as the reason wrestling isn't successful is a foolhardy waste of time, and for all the effort you put into your post, I hope you use that same effort to comprehend how you are not correct. You are not necessarily wrong, as there are certainly those who do what you say and fall in the category you outlinjed, but to say people like me are the reason wrestling isn't good is insulting to every wrestling fan who understands that wrestling is about the aesthetic display of acting and athleticism, and not about shocking the audience...which is what so many people think should happen in wrestling because of the Attitude Era.

So, I'd ask that you revisit your position, and re-consider what it is that you said.

I completely agree that it's the fans that wreck it for themselves. However, I disagree with your shock & awe argument.

I think that shock is partially what keeps the product's fan base interested. I believe that you need that element of shock & awe to add to the entertainment value of a product. Don't you think it would be slightly dull if there was no shocking twist of events? I, myself, try to keep away from spoilers for major events because I liked being shocked. However, if people start chanting a spoiler before it happens then it wrecks it for me. Obviously, this isn't the IWC as a whole, but the select idiotic few.

Look at it this way: "Lost" wouldn't be the show it is without the shocks it produces. The reason people keep going back to this show is because they have absolutely no idea what is coming next.

So to conclude; While I agree with you that Acting, and Athleticism is a large part of entertainment value of the product, I also believe that Shock and Awe is.

 

[Slyfox696]

I completely agree that it's the fans that wreck it for themselves. However, I disagree with your shock & awe argument.

I think that shock is partially what keeps the product's fan base interested. I believe that you need that element of shock & awe to add to the entertainment value of a product. Don't you think it would be slightly dull if there was no shocking twist of events? I, myself, try to keep away from spoilers for major events because I liked being shocked. However, if people start chanting a spoiler before it happens then it wrecks it for me. Obviously, this isn't the IWC as a whole, but the select idiotic few.

Look at it this way: "Lost" wouldn't be the show it is without the shocks it produces. The reason people keep going back to this show is because they have absolutely no idea what is coming next.

So to conclude; While I agree with that Acting, and Athleticism is a large part of entertainment value of the product, I also believe that Shock and Awe is.

Let me ask you this. Have you ever enjoyed a movie so much that you would watch it over and over and over again, almost to the point that you knew the lines by heart? I'd imagine so. Did you do that because every time you watched, you were shocked by what happened next? I'd hope not, because you'd be pretty dumb to be shocked by something after seeing it five times.

But, does that keep you from being interested? Of course not. Why? Because it's enjoyable. You don't need to shocked to be entertained. So it goes with wrestling. Good wrestling is good wrestling. Watching wrestling to be shocked is simply a by-product from the Monday Night Wars. You watch wrestling because you can emotionally invest yourself in the characters, and genuinely care if they do well or not. You DON'T watch to see a set collapse and take Vince McMahon out. Is it a little added spice, a little extra excitement? Sure, but if that's the reason you watch wrestling, then you will never learn to enjoy it.

Watching wrestling shouldn't be done because it can shock you, it should be done because you respect the show these guys are putting on. It's like when you go to a concert, and your favorite band plays their most popular song. It's not shocking, but you are genuinely invested in it emotionally anyways. And that's what wrestling is all about.

 

[GamerAsh]

Let me ask you this. Have you even enjoyed a movie so much that you would watch it over and over and over again, almost to the point that you knew the lines by heart? I'd imagine so. Did you do that because every time you watched, you were shocked by what happened next? I'd hope not, because you'd be pretty dumb to be shocked by something after seeing it five times.

But, does that keep you from being interested? Of course not. Why? Because it's enjoyable. You don't need to shocked to be entertained. So it goes with wrestling. Good wrestling is good wrestling. Watching wrestling to be shocked is simply a by-product from the Monday Night Wars. You watch wrestling because you can emotionally invest yourself in the characters, and genuinely care if they do well or not. You DON'T watch to see a set collapse and take Vince McMahon out. Is it a little added spice, a little extra excitement? Sure, but if that's the reason you watch wrestling, then you will never learn to enjoy it.

Watching wrestling shouldn't be done because it can shock you, it should be done because you respect the show these guys are putting on. It's like when you go to a concert, and your favorite band plays their most popular song. It's not shocking, but you are genuinely invested in it emotionally anyways. And that's what wrestling is all about.

Exactly. I never implied that the shock element of wrestling was the sole reason I watched it. It's partially why I watch, which in your words is "A little added spice". I love wrestling for the combination of all different elements; Acting, Athleticism, Shock, Crowd Reaction, Entertainment Value etc...

I could watch the same match over and over after the initial shock, because of how much I enjoyed it with the various different elements of pro wrestling. Just like I can watch a movie, see a band over and over again, just as you said.

 

[truk24]

Funny, because this kind of thread is all over the IWC. lol. Anyhow, there are a ton of things wrong with the WWE. However at the same time one thing isn't wrong, and that would be the cash flow. You must understand this first before understading all the problems. Honestly as long as "money" is coming in the WWE won't see any real reason to innovate, or provide quality production from head to toe.

One can not forget how the WWE has monopolized the wrestling industry. This has had a huge impact on the most powerful wrestling company in the world. Imagine that you are the top dog. Would you change often, or try to improve yourself? Perhaps you would. The point here is that this is a billion dollar industry.

Now moving on to what makes the WWE so ass. When I watch any of the shows that the WWE has to offer I often find myself barely watching 10 minutes at most. It used to be much different, and it has nothing to do with age. My understanding of plots, and characters hasn't matured any more now than 15 years ago. I have been a fan for over 20 years. The WWE has become more stale, and more frequently stale over the last 5 years or so.

Every now and then you might have something that makes you say "whoa". That incident is becomming a myth, and seems to be fading away from the WWE. It is as if they are saying at board meetings "you know, they'll buy tickets regardless, so lets just give them something simple". Be honest most fans are simple minded, and really don't want to care about the depth or realism of things.

The WWE never took the next step towards something pioneering, or revolutionary. There were plenty of chances too. Look at the whole "Invasion" angle with WCW being bought by the WWE. That could have been huge, and somehow they seemed to take the easy way out robbing us all of something "new". We thought the NWO was the "shit".

What would wrestling be today had the "Invasion" angle played out in the long term? Take for example characters, or storylines. These all could have been things which may have been drastically changed today. At one point the WWE had Lesnar, Goldberg, HHH, Angle, etc... Easily the greatest wrestling roster of all time, and what did they do with it.

A bunch of things came out of it. No, not all the storylines were bad, but in the end a fan like myself still feels like there was a missed turn years ago. Even now there is a lack of creativity in the show, characters, or even commentary. King Lawler is still the same old corny pervert, HBK is some Jesus loving Texan, and RAW is a soap opera with a little bit of wrestling. There is harldy a time when these things change, evolve, or even become remotely interesting.

Lets face it. How much wrestling do we really get to watch on television? Now that these superstars are assets the WWE says "we can't let them take to many risks". Which is exactly the reason why many moves have been banned from the WWE. I understand the reason why, but these men area professionals, and whay they do is a risk so where is the harm?

Take a minute to just think about all the loose ends of wrestling in just the last 8 years or so. Yes, these writers are human, but some of the creative errors are embarrassing to say the least. The most recent being Sim Snuka not coming down to rescue his father from Jericho's assault a few weeks back. No, a feud with Jericho/Sim wouldn't have saved wrestling, but it would have made sense for Sim. What son would let their aged father become a victim at the hands of another wrestler?

Wrestling hasn't done a great job in becomming innovative either. Yes, there have been some new matches like MITB, and HIAC. Those are nice, and like I said they haven't completely missed the boat on all the ideas. What kind of innovative things have they done with the titles? Especially the mid card titles. Nothing has been added to the titles. You would think that there is a reason why working your way up the ladder in the WWE involves winning a mid card title.

Just like in any sport a player wants to walk in to the HOF, but at the same time there should be things on that path that he or she may want to accomplish. The WWE has done nothing creative with the titles, which means that there will never really be any kind of honest build to a characters career. Hence the reason why we see so many threads titled "Forced down our throats".

I remember when everyone was saying the WWE forced Cena, or Lesnar down our throats. In a way they were true about that, but at the same time the mid card titles have nothing to them. So, can you really blame them for rushing these stars to such high places? This creative staff, and others over the years have allowed this to happen. Making it so that the fans just don't respect anything outside of the world titles.

When you start combining all these things in one bowl you are left with this kind of thread. I'm tired of watching RAW, and knowing what is going to happen. Fuck the IWC, I don't need this to know what is going to happen next week! Do you? If you do you haven't been paying much attention very long. I don't even watch much wrestling, and it is mainly due to the fact that it is way too predictable. Needing the IWC to know what is going to happen week to week in wrestling is like needing the bible to know how to be a "good person".

Taking away much of the wrestling, and allowing these "average actors" act, and speak so much makes no sense. Did you honestly think that Orton/Teddy weren't going to face HHH this week? Does it surprise you that now King Lawler wants to wrestle Jericho after what happened to Flair? Oh, and did you think Flair would actually stay off of tv after he was retired last year? Thats what is wrong with wrestling!

 

[bulldog76]

At least this was a post that had some thought. He makes some very valid points you have to at least take into consideration; whether you agree or not.

There has always been good and bad on the wrestling scene. I've seen it from WCCW in the early 80's, WCW in the late 80's early 90's, and in WCW and WWF/WWE. What entertains you, will not necessarily entertain me. Vice-versa. It is smart to have all sorts of characters with all sorts of styles. Vince has ran WrestleMania for 25 years now. That is not a fluke.

My point is, nothing is ruined. WWE is in transition. We are allowed to freely come on this board and state what we like/don't like, would like to see/fear to see, and our overall thoughts on the product. I don't mind spoilers. Spoilers have never made me skip a show but sure have made me make an extra effort to watch. With a wife, 2 kids, and one on the way, I usually can't even remember what the spoiler was. Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesnt mean you need to browbeat them into trying to agree with you. If any of us are so freakin' smart, how come we're typing this on computers and not running a near billion dollar business? Be respectful, but enjoy it. If wrestling is ruined, treat it as I do TNA, don't watch. Don't subject yourself to that kind of misery. Do something that will make you happy. Take care and have a great day: everyone.

 

[bioshock]

Great topic, you said everything that should be said about IWC, the news letters in the early 80s were the start of its downfall, IWC was the next step.

Great post anyway, maybe someday when all wrestling shows are done live and morons quit giving away future storylines then wrestling will be better.

One things for sure, if for just one show, I wonder the kind of numbers Raw could get if all current WWE fans did tune into watch it live on tv, instead of online or a day later online, or just by reading the Raw reports. Bet the numbers could be pretty good.

 

[EtherBoo]

About the shock factor mentioned by Sly...

Just want to point out, even if there is no shock because we know, say, that Christian is going to win the MitB (not saying he will, but for arguments sake, let's say it was leaked).

Now, do I care? No. I want to see the match. How they got from A to B. Knowing the end result is meaningless if you don't know the journey.

Case and point. When I went to go see Die Hard 4, I knew John McClain was going to get the bad guy and come out on top. Who cares? I wanted to see how he was going to do it.

On the flip side, shock can be fun. I never read The Watchmen, so I did not expect the movie to end the way it did. It was fantastic, but even if I had read the GN before hand, I'd still go see the movie to see how it played out on the big screen, just like all the screaming girls who lined up to see Twilight at midnight when it was released, and all the other movies based on books.

 

[supergav67]

While I see your point I have to say in a forumers sarcastic bitchy way (as we allegedly do)
Well,friend of VincE,why are YoU writing on this Forum then ,if youre not part of the soloution youre part of the problem,physician heal thyself,proverb,proverb,proverb.etc etc etc.
In fact,lets close WZ,all forums & the internet down.If we feel WWEs crap,dont tell anyone,just switch off.You dont KnoW if your fav wrestler,s in the rumble ,Elimination chamber.,USA title match,SD 500, or MitB,? ,OR When Christian,Gail or any NeW talent are arriving? ,,,,OR whose in WM till Lord God McMahon tells you? tough! ,If you dont know these things,you permanently ThinK WWE sucks & it cant possibly get better. switch off!.
No,seriously,I see your point & while Spoilers tell you whats coming,it can SpoiL the surprise.& like the News,we tend to dwell on the bad things rather than the good.But how Can WWE improve if Vince thinks everything in the garden is rosy,.& to seamingly immune WWE from any blame,,,I mean,cOME ONNNN! ( & off we go again)

 

[johnnygoround360]

The idea that the IWC "ruined" pro wrestling is ludicrous. You don't want to read spoilers ? Nobody is forcing you to. If some idiot smark ruins the live show by spoiling a surprise, don't blame the community, blame the individual. The information available through the IWC is subject to individual scrutiny, you alone decide if it's worth reading, thinking about or acting upon. The vast amount of crap and unsubstantiated rumors spread around the community make it a must for you to carefully consider the material before accepting it as a fact. Again, it's your option and responsibility. Just as it is your option not to read what you consider negative comments and others might consider creative criticism. Till the IWC actually books the WWE shows and PPV's, I don't see how you could blame it for what the WWE is offering these days.

Most IWC peeps actually think they can book a better show than the WWE/TNA creative writers. However, these IWC are also the same people who thinks unifying all the championships is the best way to go, as well as ending the brand splits.

These are the same people who think they know who should be in the main event, without even thinking that not all of these wrestlers would get a shot at the main event, or even a chance to become a world champion if the brand split never happened (WWE Championship, World Heavyweight Championship, ECW Championship)...

And these are also the same people who began cheering for Batista during late 2004 which resulted in his stocks rising and on his way to winning the Rumble and headlining Wrestlemania 21, winning the World Heavyweight Title. These same "fans" also kept complaining about Batista sucking and not deserving to be in the spot, and who thinks that he got the Main Event rub off Evolution, when in reality, it was the wrestling fans who were the reason he skyrocketed to the top of the WWE... because he was insanely over. If I remember correctly, they were actually planning an Orton/HHH match at WM21, but the creatives took notice to Batista's growing popularity, and it wasn't because of Evolution rub (God knows if it was, he would still have been the modern Arn Anderson); it was because fans actually loved the guy. They never had any intention of having Batista become a top star, he just became a top star because the wrestling fans loved him, and they saw a potential in him due to fan reaction.

Wow.

No matter how many times smarks mention that Batista sucked a lot of cock just to become a main eventer, you know the reason why Batista reached the top (and was actually more over than Cena back in 2005) is because the actually wrestling fans loved him; anti-(insert WWE Superstar who they think sucks so bad) biased smarks not counted.

Why bring this up? Why use this as an example.

Well, it's because I believe the poster when indeed, it was the IWC who ruined wrestling.

 

[TwistofRKO]

I agree man...the orginal poster is a total tool, and his brown nose follower yes-men. One of the many things I learned in life is, NUMBERS Never Lie! WWE Marks do! The wwe is in the worst shape since 2003 since the end of the attitude era. The ratings are going to continue to deterrate, until we drop this PG shit! To some of you clueless morons, how is the ratings doing lately!? Thought so. Going into the "biggest" event of the year, and the 25 anniversity none the less, you can't even pull a 2.0 on NETWORK TV!

Worst shape since 2003? Have you watched at all from 03-08? This is much, much better than the WWE we seen then. I believe RAW recently (mid January ??) pulled down a mid 4 which was the highest in over a year. So appearently you don't know how the ratings are doing.

What show doesn't pull down 2.0? ECW? Smackdown is consistently flirting with 3.0 and Raw has been high 3s flirting with 4.0.

 

[bulldog76]

Most IWC peeps actually think they can book a better show than the WWE/TNA creative writers. However, these IWC are also the same people who thinks unifying all the championships is the best way to go, as well as ending the brand splits.

These are the same people who think they know who should be in the main event, without even thinking that not all of these wrestlers would get a shot at the main event, or even a chance to become a world champion if the brand split never happened (WWE Championship, World Heavyweight Championship, ECW Championship)...

And these are also the same people who began cheering for Batista during late 2004 which resulted in his stocks rising and on his way to winning the Rumble and headlining Wrestlemania 21, winning the World Heavyweight Title. These same "fans" also kept complaining about Batista sucking and not deserving to be in the spot, and who thinks that he got the Main Event rub off Evolution, when in reality, it was the wrestling fans who were the reason he skyrocketed to the top of the WWE... because he was insanely over. If I remember correctly, they were actually planning an Orton/HHH match at WM21, but the creatives took notice to Batista's growing popularity, and it wasn't because of Evolution rub (God knows if it was, he would still have been the modern Arn Anderson); it was because fans actually loved the guy. They never had any intention of having Batista become a top star, he just became a top star because the wrestling fans loved him, and they saw a potential in him due to fan reaction.

Wow.

No matter how many times smarks mention that Batista sucked a lot of cock just to become a main eventer, you know the reason why Batista reached the top (and was actually more over than Cena back in 2005) is because the actually wrestling fans loved him; anti-(insert WWE Superstar who they think sucks so bad) biased smarks not counted.

Why bring this up? Why use this as an example.

Well, it's because I believe the poster when indeed, it was the IWC who ruined wrestling.

wow. What a way to make assumptions. I actually would like to see the brand split go away. I would actually like to see the titles unified. And people are entitled to what they would like to see. (I think most of the people that have held titles, would have still had title reigns but it wouldn't necesarrily mean that Edge has 8 runs or Triple H has 13.) That doesn't mean they "ruined" wrestling. Like I said earlier, nothing has ruined wrestling. Just because what I would like to see isn't on TV, doesn't mean I cant enjoy what is. I have actually credited Vince; especially if you look at my last post for this thread. I started into these forums because I like to see other people's perspectives. What I see is "If you don't agree with me then you're a stupid tool/schmark and know nothing about the business." Sad.

 

[d_henderson1810]

I totally agree with D-Man. You know, just today, I argued with my brother (who now hates wrestling) about the state of wrestling today. I am growing tired of so-called "fans'" and "wrestling media hacks" criticisms of wrestling. Here are some points to remember:-

The Attitude Era- It was eleven years ago. Get over it. I'm sick of having everything in wrestling today compared to whether it was as good as the "Attitude Era". It's like old people saying how it was better "in the old days".

I find it funny that "the greatest period of wrestling" (The "Attitude Era") was actually conceived by the most maligned man according to the IWC- Vince Russo. That's right- Russo pitched the "Attitude" idea to Vince McMahon and wrote a lot of the Austin-McMahon storyline. Yet all these people who bang on about the "Attitude Era" do nothing but blame Russo for "ruining wrestling, WCW, TNA, (and probably get blamed for starting WWII as well"). This shows the hypocrisy of internet wrestling fans (I'm sounding more like Chris Jericho every day).So, either the "Attitude Era" wasn't that great, or Russo is. You can't have it both ways. Either pay Russo his due, or admit that the "Attitude Era" was the most overhyped concept in wrestling since NWO.

Also, the two greatest periods in wrestling had one thing in common- a figurehead- a marquee player!!! "The Rock N' Wrestling Era" had Hulk Hogan, who fans cheered, tuned into, and hung on every word. "The Attitude Era" had "Stone Cold" Steve Austin, who the fans cheered, tuned into .... etc. The problem is, at the moment, there is no "Hogan or Austin"-like figure. The WWE are trying to push Cena, but he is as popular as when they pushed Lex Luger to be the "New Hulk Hogan". He just doesn't have that connection with the audience. Why do you think that the fans will cheer like sheep when broken-down veterans like Hogan and Austin can still command standing ovations every time they appear, even though they stopped being relevant years ago? Because people will follow a "figure-head". Look at Barak Obama. He makes some charismatic speeches, and people gravitate toward him like God-incarnate. People need someone to follow, to live "Vacariously through", and WWE has no-one like that at the moment.

Also, some people are never pleased. It wouldn't matter what Vince offered they would complain. If I were Vince McMahon, I would tell those fickle fans to "go jump" and focus on the loyal fans, who stick by through thick or thin. Look at football. If you follow a team, you follow them and try to go to all their games, even if they hardly ever win. But when they finally win the championship, you rejoice more than most, as you deserve to, because you suffered the hard-times, so you should enjoy the good times too. Wrestling should no longer cater to the "bandwagon jumpers" who jump in and out of wrestling when it suits them, but cater to the fans who stick by through "thick and thin".If you hate wrestling now, then maybe you never truly loved it to begin with. Why do you think so many marriages bust up, because people stick with their spouse "while they continue to be of use to them". The moment anything bad happens, they jump off.

Also, people complain about wrestling styles. As in, how there aren't as good matches any more. Well, looking back at old WWF tapes from '98 and '99, ("The Attitude Era"), the in-ring work was dreadful. They had Mark Henry, Truth Commission, Viscera, The Headbangers, The Disciples of Apocalypse and many other stinkers around then. Only the top guys, like Austin and the Rock, could produce decent match quality (also I include the Hardys and Edge and Christian) but Undertaker was awful, as his knees were stuffed, and bored me to tears in the ring back then. Also, looking at old 80's stuff, the wrestling was antiquated to the moves they do today. Besides, Hulk Hogan is hugely over after being one of the worst in-ring wrestlers ever. Yet when Cena has a similar type of match, he is bagged for the same thing Hogan would be lauded for.

If the actual in-ring stuff sold, ROH and Japan would be huge, bigger than WWE, but they are not. You know why, because as much as people like good matches, they want "entertaining personalities" more so (that is why, politically, Obama is so popular) . People would rather listen to Eddie Guerrero cut a promo than watch a match between Rey Mysterio and Evan Bourne. If ringwork was so big, why have I never, once, read any comments about how good Nigel McGuinness is?

The other problem was ever confessing that "Wrestling was fake". It is like when you are a little kid, and you believe in Santa Claus. As you get older, you "know" that it is implausable that one man can cross the globe in one night, but you can't be sure, so you still "believe" until you are told. Then your illusions are shattered, and you don't enjoy Christmas as much anymore. It is the same with wrestling. Everyone "knew" but when Triple H squashed a guy, you questioned it, but accepted that "that is just what happened" (such as when your football team loses). Knowing that Triple H buried a jobber because "he was meant to" destroys the illusion that he beat him "just because he was better". "Real" wrestling angles and shoot angles destroyed wrestling fan's "innocence" completely. If everyone in the industry and on the net still created that "doubt", then fans would complain less, as they would just learn to "live with it".

There are many other thoughts I have too. But, generally, I still enjoy aspects of the sport. When I see a great angle, promo or match, I just forget all the ills of the industry and enjoy. That's what other fans need to do as well.

 

[d_henderson1810]

I agree man...the orginal poster is a total tool, and his brown nose follower yes-men. One of the many things I learned in life is, NUMBERS Never Lie! WWE Marks do! The wwe is in the worst shape since 2003 since the end of the attitude era. The ratings are going to continue to deterrate, until we drop this PG shit! To some of you clueless morons, how is the ratings doing lately!? Thought so. Going into the "biggest" event of the year, and the 25 anniversity none the less, you can't even pull a 2.0 on NETWORK TV!

The product is absolute shit, and is going to continue to dive south, like Monica on Bill Clinton....clueless marks! You are in the minority. Most people could care less about Wrestlemainia. PG era is going to kill WWE! For the love of Christ, build a new company Eric Bischoff! Vince made you look like a douch bag in WWE, time for a little payback.

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Listen, you bang on about how PG is ruining wrestling. But in wrestling's other "greatest" era (yes "Attitude" fans, wrestling was good before Austin flipped birds and cursed), there was a man called Hulk Hogan. He told kiddies to "say their prayers, and eat their vitamins". The WWF sold ice-cream bars and had cartoons shows. It was "G" entertainment, not just PG. Yet it was very profitable back then. So, they didn't have no "naughty words or stripped divas". They, bakc then, don't have "rudy-poos" and toilet humour, yet it was hugely popular, and Hulk Hogan (who shattered his "moral" image by screwing his daughter's friend, and pulling strings to keep his drink-driving son out of jail) is still cheered by wrestling fans like you today.

The reason WWE went PG is not to annoy you, but because we live in an idiot society which dictates what you think, what you eat, how you act etc. WWE wants to draw "the next generation of fans" -the children, but mothers (many of who hate wrestling and want their sons to be involved in ballet and other wussy activities, rather than grow up to be a "man" who plays sports and drinks beer( don't want them watching such a "vulgar sport". It's only Vince's fault because he should recognize these critics for what many of them are- "haters", and just book , not to appease a judgmental society, but follow his own rules (within the law, of course).

Also, if some people still like WWE , you don't need to insult them. Sure, there is a lot wrong with WWE, but there is a lot right , too. If you just want to hate it, and not even bring yourself to credit it at all, then get lost and go and do soemthing you enjoy- such as knitting. Leave wrestling for the fans who don't expect perfection. You're not perfect (but you are, only in your own mind), so don't expect other things to be either.

Do you think you can do better than Vince McMahon? He is a millionaire, and I am betting that you're not. So, what does that say? The fact is, you couldn't run a wrestling federation if your life depended on it, so keep your opinions to yourself.

I appreciate D-Man's passion in starting this thread. That being said, I don't agree.

I think wrestling is ruined by the same things that have always hurt it: a lack of competition and a lack of fresh talent being pushed for fans to get excited about.

Everyone trumpets the success of the Attitude Era because the WWE was creating new stars. Austin, Rock, Hunter, Foley, etc. were all becoming big names for the first time. There was always half a dozen or so interesting tag teams. Talent would slowly rise up the card and become main eventers.

Now look at today's stars. Fans have warmed up to Cena but let's be honest. He was manufactured. The guy was pushed far beyond his means at the time so fans turned on him. He wasn't allowed to grow at his own pace which would have been about a year longer than it took for him to win his first World title. The same thing happened to Orton who has made an amazing recovery since then. Batista worked well originally because the fans CHOSE to cheer for him on their own.

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You say that Cena won the title too soon, so fans couldn't invest in him. Yet Kurt Angle AND Brock Lesnar both became World Champion within one year of entering WWE, and were hugely over, so you fail on that argument.
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Two of the biggest mistakes the WWE ever made was not utilizing Jericho and RVD right. When RVD came in fans were rabid for him instead of winning a World title by the time Invasion ended he had to wait another 5 years. Fans went crazy in April 2000 when they thought Jericho got a World title. Again, it took him another year and a half to get a title and soon after he went into a 6 year drought.
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I get sick of fans blaming Vince for not pushing RVD. He didn't put the title on RVD not because he didn't want to, but because of Rvd's use of "recreational marajuana". Think about it, how would it look for the WWE if they had someone who is an advocate for legalizing marajuana as their champion. they would have been heavily criticised. When Vince finally did give RVD the title, what happened? He got done for marajuana possession. So RVD screwed RVD.

It's the same with Jeff Hardy. The fans begged for him to be champion, but how could you put the belt on someone who has had past drug-problems, misses shows, and is one Wellness violation from getting fired? Vince may have been afraid of putting the title on Jeff, and he is either fired, no-shows a PPV, or is found lying in a hotel room (for real). If Jeff Hardy was more reliable, he may have had a much longer title reign. Jeff screwed Jeff.
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Vince has no competition either. He doesn't push new guys because he doesn't feel like he has to. TNA and ROH are no threat to him now. Instead of worrying about new stars he's worried about the IWC finding out about a swerve before it happens. To which I have to ask, "Who cares?" I like being surprised as much as the next person but by no means is that make or break for my level of enjoyment. As long as an angle is interesting with quality promos and good matches to back them up I'm happy. As long as I know that matches will be kept fresh with exciting, new talent then it's all good. If good angles and good matches are the focus then you can never fail.

Hey, I'm not saying the IWC doesn't ruin wrestling a bit with it's negative attitude. But hey, at least people have opinions. When people become apathetic and don't even have the energy to care one way or the other then things are wrong. A passion - good or bad - shows that the fans care.

D-Man, I could go for less negativity as well. It'd be a nice refreshing change of pace for sure. But you'll find in any fandom that the most hardcore, diehard fans are the ones that care enough to be negative. At the end of the day, they just want the absolute best from the show that they love. They have a funny way of expressing it but at least they have an undying passion.

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[Y2M]

I believe The IWC and its negative attitude toward everything is really hurting WWE, And they say that were small but look at how many website there are just like these one.


The thing that get me is we have all these "HATE cena thread", yet you look at the next one down and it "Give MVP the WWE title because I like how big his dick looks in HD do it now WWE" and it like what a second you hate Cena because he was push too fast yet you want MVP to win the WWE title in his first match. Where the logic?

A other thing that has gotten under my skin, is how we want WWE to get rid of a title to bring a other title back for example these people that want the IC and US title to go away to bring back the Hardcore and CW title again WHY?

Now what make me ashamed to even be a wrestling fan, Is when the IWC say that having 16 world title reign make you better then someone who hold the title for a year. How does losing 16 times make you better then someone who keep the title for a year.

The IWC is a issue, because you can never make them happy you watch it How everyone in the IWC want Orton as WWE champion and The day after he win it hell maybe the Night he win it the same people who want him to win it will be bitching and crying that he suck and HHH should of won.

 

[Razor Blade Dream]

I agree with the D-Man. I'm not a "yes man" like an earlier poster stated. I totally feel that the IWC had helped in hurting the product. I used to be on a forum for lethalwrestling.com and while some of the stuff was funny, I never read such negative comments in my life. The forum was hell, literally, I could not say anything that made me look like a "mark" or even have any grammatical errors or I would have been flamed relentlessly. The sick part was, this was a big forum and it was made up for a lot of guys that actually worked with some indie feds. For a while, I took up their mentality and I just bashed everything I saw on tv, but goddammit I still watched it every week. I just had a more cynical view on the product. After a while, I was like, "Fuck, this is NOT me. I want to cheer who I want to cheer for and not let some forum think I'm a "***" for doing so."
Granted, having access to wrestling news is amazing. Sometimes I do long for the days when being ignorant to what goes on behind the curtain was the way of life for a fan. The only way I got any "real" news was reading PWI because we all know the old WWE(F) magazines were chockfull of bullshit.


I also agree with what d_henderson said. There is no "marquee guy" or "Icon" if you would. Granted Cena is big, I will NOT deny that at all. But I do not feel that connection with him like I did with Hogan, Austin and even the Rock who I connected with more. The Rock reminded me of my dad, not so much his personality, but his looks and size. My dad is literally what the Rock will look like in his 50's if he stays in shape . . . and shrunk to 5'6 and Puerto Rican. Other than that, my dad is a dead ringer, ha.
It just seems wrestling is in that "down" period like it was after Hogan and Pre-Attitude Era. Even though there are amazing athletes in that ring right now, it just isn't connecting with society on a large scale. I give it a few more years before it breaks into the huge numbers again. Granted the high 3's are good. But in 1999 they were consistently in the 5's and 6's, even a few 7's on occasion.
I think the other issue with wrestling is it needs another powerhouse competition again. TNA is just not any competition until they go head to head with WWE and step up their game. I think once we have legit competition competing on the same nights again we will see another upswing in the wrestling landscape.

 

[Scott Free]

Most IWC peeps actually think they can book a better show than the WWE/TNA creative writers. However, these IWC are also the same people who thinks unifying all the championships is the best way to go, as well as ending the brand splits..

You are falling into the original poster's wild generalization pit, not all IWC peeps are alike, and dumping a whole community into one pile is convenient but wrong.

 

[Alias Scarecrow]

Kind of new here to this forum, but I saw the topic of discussion and wanted to add my two cents:

I haven't watched wrestling with any regularity since 2002. I was a big time fan who ordered all the PPV's I could afford and scarfed up any wrestling mags and t-shirts I could find. But sometime during 2002 I lost my interest and it was simply because the matches got boring, predictable, and tired.

Every night on Raw and Smackdown it was the same thing over and over.

-A big match was promised, but interrupted and scheduled to a PPV.

-In lieu of actual entertainment? Vince had some cheap floozies come out and show some T&A and use innuendo that only a 14 year old would find amusing

-Triple H and Brock Lesnar were invincible

-Because the brands were split, that gave new talent a chance to shine. Unfortunately, when that new talent consists of Zach Gowen and Maven? It's not much to get excited about.

-The announcing team regularly insulted the intelligence of it's fan by trying to make matches between mid-carders like Reverend D-Von and Test seem exciting and history making.

But the thing that killed it for me? It wasn't fun anymore. There was this emphasis to stress the athletics of the performers, to admire the technical aspects of delivering a perfect suplex, and respect the aches and pains they went through due to the rigorous WWE schedule. Perhaps that appealed to some people, but to the rest of us? We want to see guys like The Mountie, The Ultimate Warrior, Earthquake, or Hacksaw Jim Duggan.

True, these guys may not be as technically sound as a Randy Orton or whomever; but they had something that a lot of guys in the WWE today don't have: a personality. Now a lot of 'purist' may claim that these guys were an insult to wrestling, that they were by-products of the WWE circus atmosphere; but they were colorful performers who were easily identifiable and had a hook (gimmick) to capture an audience's interest. Back in those days it was all tongue-in-cheek, nobody took it seriously and it was all in fun.

Now? Everything and everyone is so intense, like these matches are 'for real'. People use their real names instead of creating identities. Tell me - which match would you rather see if you were a new fan: Hulk Hogan vs. Macho Man or Terry Bollea vs. Randy Poffo? Which one sounds more exciting?

This is all speculation and my opinion, but it seemed there was a movement to legitimatize professional wrestling - like people were embarrassed to be perceived as wrestlers and wanted to be known as entertainers or athletes. That maybe Vince and company wanted guys like Sports Illustrated and ESPN to include them in their reports or at least acknowledge them, and when they did that? It stopped being fun.

I still poke my head in from time to time, just long enough to remember why I don't watch anymore.

 

[Greenlight13]

What's wrong with the WWE? Nothing. The problem is we've all grown up. Are there any 8-14 year old kids on here complaing? No.

When you were a kid the WWF was amazing and to kids now the WWE still is. But somewhere along the way the kid in me that wanted to see if Austin could beat Vince, if The Rock could defeat the McMahon-Helmsley faction, that found Jericho cool because he did dropkicks and lionsaults and said cool catch-phrases, that adored the Hardy Boyz for their high-flying and risk-taking and life-style.... *insert a million more nostalgic memories* ... that kid became a teenager who wanted to see new moves and sequences he hadn't seen before, a teenager that wanted to see suplexes galore and some unique chain wrestling...

Now that teenager is a 20 year old that wants to see stiff strikes, great in-ring psychology and amazing chain wrestling. I don't want to see John Cena beat the odds, I don't want to see Rey Mysterio in a brightly coloured costume, I don't want to hate Edge for cheating. The WWE in many ways has always been for children/families. Sure you can watch it now and be treated to the occasional gem (see Taker/HBK at wrestlemania) but fundamentally they want to sell t-shirts and entertain children, they want to create heroes and villains and role models, they don't want to be known as a respected wrestling federation, they want to be the number one rated entertainment show.

Go to a WWE show (like I am on Monday night) and look at the crowd. It's 40 year old dudes who remember when they were young and dig out their old t-shirts and make ironic cheers and boo John Cena, and then swimming around their ankles are the kids that adore Cena and Mysterio and want to see Jeff Hardy do one of the most basic high-flying moves in wrestling.

The WWE is a billion dollar company and attendence is probably at an all time high (since the boom in the early 90's), there is nothing wrong with it, just the people on here are not their audience, we're not their audience at all. I'm fine with that, I watch my ROH, I tune into TNA matches that don't include Sting, Scott Steiner or Mick Foley and I check what happened in the WWE and consider youtubing what I found intriguing.