The Sports Bar

[Little Jerry Lawler]

To be honest, I've never heard Calvin Johnson's name come up until just a couple of weeks ago when discussing the top three receivers. I still have Andre Johnson and Fitzgerald above him.

 

[BooCocky]

I only think Fitzgerald is better... I think it's close though...

 

[Megatron]

To be honest, I've never heard Calvin Johnson's name come up until just a couple of weeks ago when discussing the top three receivers. I still have Andre Johnson and Fitzgerald above him.

The only reason he hasn't been as heralded (before this year; even though most still thought of him as top 5 at the worst) was because he only had Matthew Stafford throw to him in parts of 3 games last year. He had a combination of just poor/backup QBs throwing to him, like Jon Kitna, Shaun Hill, Drew Stanton, a washed up Daunte Culpepper, Dan Orlovsky, and I think even Drew Henson made an apperance or two. Needless to say, those guys couldn't get him the ball as deep or as often as Stafford can.

Physically, the guys just a straight up beast. On MNF there was a Sports Science thing that said his range is that of a two door garage. He's 6'5'' and can run 4.3 40. He's built like a really athletic tight end when you think about it (he's over 230 pounds). His peak at jumping is as high as what a guy like Shaq could do jumping - and Shaq's 7'1''. In the red zone, there's no better threat due to his size, speed, and great hands.

Is he better then Moss? Possibly. He's certainly a harder worker and goes out on every play, but Moss was a great player when he wanted to be. However his effort wasn't always there, not as much as Calvin. With Stafford throwing to him every single week I don't see why he can't be considered just as (if not beter) then Andre and Fitzgerald. He always had the talent, now he's got someone who has talent to get it to him.

 

[Stormtrooper]

The only reason he hasn't been as heralded (before this year; even though most still thought of him as top 5 at the worst) was because he only had Matthew Stafford throw to him in parts of 3 games last year. He had a combination of just poor/backup QBs throwing to him, like Jon Kitna, Shaun Hill, Drew Stanton, a washed up Daunte Culpepper, Dan Orlovsky, and I think even Drew Henson made an apperance or two. Needless to say, those guys couldn't get him the ball as deep or as often as Stafford can.

Physically, the guys just a straight up beast. On MNF there was a Sports Science thing that said his range is that of a two door garage. He's 6'5'' and can run 4.3 40. He's built like a really athletic tight end when you think about it (he's over 230 pounds). His peak at jumping is as high as what a guy like Shaq could do jumping - and Shaq's 7'1''. In the red zone, there's no better threat due to his size, speed, and great hands.

Is he better then Moss? Possibly. He's certainly a harder worker and goes out on every play, but Moss was a great player when he wanted to be. However his effort wasn't always there, not as much as Calvin. With Stafford throwing to him every single week I don't see why he can't be considered just as (if not beter) then Andre and Fitzgerald. He always had the talent, now he's got someone who has talent to get it to him.

Megatron, Megatron is not better then Fitz or Andre. Not even close, at least not now. Hell, he's not better then Reggie Wayne. He's maybe #4. Unless you want to put Greg Jennings ahead of him.

He's the flavor of the month right now because Detroit if 5-0. He's getting all the publicity, much like Detroit is getting all the publicity right now (both deserve it).


I'm not knocking him, he's a beast. However, he's not better then Moss ever was (again, not YET, maybe in a decade we can take another look at it). Moss was one of the greatest receivers of all time. He was dominant for YEARS. Even in his "down" years he was still a dominant threat.



On a different note, we have 2 trades in the NFL. the Raiders traded their 2012 7th and a conditional 2013 later round pick for Aaron Curry. Curry (a linebacker) was the 4th overall pick in 2009.

AND, the Jets traded Derrick Mason to the Texans for a 7th round pick in the 2012 draft. Mason was replaced by Rookie Jeremy Kerley, who is playing better then Mason anyway. Mason also reportedly spoke out against Offensive Coordinator Brian Schottenheimer, which may have been another reason to trade the old receiver (who wouldn't be happy being replaced by a rookie in the lineup).

 

[Megatron]

Megatron, Megatron is not better then Fitz or Andre. Not even close, at least not now. Hell, he's not better then Reggie Wayne. He's maybe #4. Unless you want to put Greg Jennings ahead of him.

at Reggie Wayne being > Calvin right now. Maybe if Calvin had Peyton Manning throwing to him since he's been a rookie he'd have a bunch of 1000 yard receiving seasons like Wayne. No, he's had Kitna, Hill, Stanton, Henson, Culpepper, Orlovsky and possibly other shit throwing to him aside in all but the 18 games Stafford has played. And look what's happened when he's had a potentially great QB throwing to him - 16 TDs in 18 games between the two of them. The guy is a machine. He's a much greater specimen as well (5 inches taller, almost 40 pounds heavier, same speed if not faster). He's a bigger deep threat (almost 2 yards more/catch then Wayne in career) and is better at getting in the end zone (.64 td/game in career, .43 for Wayne). If you're gonna say you'd take Reggie Wayne over Calvin now you'll be taking the wrong option. He's great, but having 18 throw him the ball ever since he's came into the league has helped (look what Manning created in guys like Blair White, Austin Collie, Jacob Tamme, Pierre Garcon, Anthony Gonzalez *when healthy*, and others). Calvin's just now getting that luxury.

And Jennings is one who's had comparable stats, but again is nowhere near the physical freak Calvin is. He's even shorter then Wayne and weighs about the same and again, benefited from one of the 10 greatest QBs ever throwing to him and now one of the 2 or 3 best QBs in the game. All the guys (minus Stafford) combined don't have the talent that either Rodgers or Favre had. He's been a slightly better deep threat (although less then a yard/reception higher) but doesn't get in the end zone as much. He's also not the only threat on that offense. Jeremichael Finley, Jordy Nelson, James Jones, Donald Driver, and now Randall Cobb are all threats that can go off in a game. While that could be used as a double edged sword, since he won't get thrown to as much, he doesn't always have the difficulty of getting double covered like Calvin because then Rodgers can go to any of those 5 guys.

Two fine, fine receivers, but aren't as physically gifted/talented as Calvin and have similar career numbers with HOFs throwing to them.

And I don't see why it's 'not even close' that he's better then Andre/Fitzgerald. I can see people still being hesitant on saying Calvin > them (which I have no problem with) but to say he doesn't have equal talent and isn't at their level is absurd. For my money, I want him over those two guys because you can throw it up there and he'll be able to get it more often then them (remember he's a few inches taller then both of them) and that's been mainly without a talented QB throwing his way for a good part of his career.

He's the flavor of the month right now because Detroit if 5-0. He's getting all the publicity, much like Detroit is getting all the publicity right now (both deserve it).

2 of the last 3 years (not including this one) he put up 75+ catch seasons with 12 TDs. He's not a 'flavor of the month'. He's one of the 3 best receivers in the game (and could potentially take that title over at the end of the year if he keeps up this torrid pace).

I'm not knocking him, he's a beast. However, he's not better then Moss ever was (again, not YET, maybe in a decade we can take another look at it). Moss was one of the greatest receivers of all time. He was dominant for YEARS. Even in his "down" years he was still a dominant threat.

Nobody said he's already greater then Moss, but he most certainly has the talent, QB, and drive that can make him > Moss. Moss is one of the 5 best to catch, no doubt, but the guy was the epitome of lazy when things weren't going his way. His last year in Minny and 2 years in Oakland can attribute to that. Calvin had a great year even when the Lions were just awful. They're built about the same (although Calvins slightly bigger in weight) and I wouldn't be surprised if 10 years from now we're talking about Calvin the same way we talk about the 'good' Moss (barring injury, of course). The guys a freak and deserves the praise he gets.

 

[Big Sexy]

Calvin Johnson is now the best wide receiver in the NFL. The ONLY guys who can even be in discussion are Andre Johnson and Larry Fitzgerald.

 

[Stormtrooper]

I posted a thread in the Stadium. Go there now. Then come back throughout the season.

 

[Turd Ferguson]

So the Red Sox and Cubs are still haggling over compensation for Theo. If we can't get prospects for him, the Red Sox will likely pay him millions of dollars to do nothing. Which isn't unprecedented, they've done that with Lackey and Crawford already.

 

[X]

So the Red Sox and Cubs are still haggling over compensation for Theo. If we can't get prospects for him, the Red Sox will likely pay him millions of dollars to do nothing. Which isn't unprecedented, they've done that with Lackey and Crawford already.

I'm honestly just done worrying about the behind-the-scenes BS with the BoSox, there was really no need to get rid of Terry and letting Theo walk was equally dumb, but it's already done so they need to just move on and do their best to ensure we've got a good management team in place for next year. Because what happened this year in September was unforgivable, but blaming it all on Terry or Theo as the scapegoats is equally as unforgivable honestly.

 

[Via Armbar]

I know the Niners turnaround over the past year has been pointed out ad nauseam, it really can't be understated. Very excited for this season moreso than any other in recent memory. For obvious reasons if you know me...

 

[TSG]

IndyCar star Dan Wheldon passed away this afternoon due to injuries sustained in a 15-car incident on lap 13 of the Season Finale at Las Vegas Motor Speedway. He was 33 years old.

I follow NASCAR more than Indy, but in any case, this is extremely sad to hear about, and also a somber reminder that even though it's a less followed sport, motor sports can be just as deadly in the short term than concussions and brain damage from major sports can be in the long term. Life is truly too short, R.I.P. Dan Wheldon.

 

[Stormtrooper]

I know the Niners turnaround over the past year has been pointed out ad nauseam, it really can't be understated. Very excited for this season moreso than any other in recent memory. For obvious reasons if you know me...

There's a good reason things are looking great for the Niners.
1. The 2010 NFL Draft, where they had 2 1st rounders, and picked 2 good O-Linemen. The line is playing very good right now, and line play is the key to success.
2. Competent coaching (actually, excellent coaching).
3. Frank Gore hasn't gotten hurt yet.
4. Alex Smith hasn't played like shit yet.

 

[Big Sexy]

The Cincinnati Bengals have been the most surprising team this year. They are 4-2 and their losses came by a combined 7 points. I honestly thought they would have the worst record in the league this year and instead I could see them winning 8 games.

 

[Big Sexy]

Jason Campbell is likely out for the year and that is a big blow for the Raiders who have playoff aspirations. Now they're left with Kyle Boller and Terrell Pryor as their only qb's. They will likely sign a veteran and David Garrard makes a lot of sense. He's used to running an offense with average receivers but a great running game.

 

[Moon Knight]

Jason Campbell is likely out for the year and that is a big blow for the Raiders who have playoff aspirations. Now they're left with Kyle Boller and Terrell Pryor as their only qb's. They will likely sign a veteran and David Garrard makes a lot of sense. He's used to running an offense with average receivers but a great running game.

Why would he sign with a team that won't be dedicated to him? Play 1 year where he will always have to look over his shoulders at Pryor only to lose out to Campbell next year.

 

[Big Sexy]

Why would he sign with a team that won't be dedicated to him? Play 1 year where he will always have to look over his shoulders at Pryor only to lose out to Campbell next year.

No team is going to be dedicated to Garrard and he knows that. No matter where he signs this year it's just basically a try out for teams who may want to sign him in the off season. Pryor is also a non issue because he isn't seeing the field at qb this year barring an injury to Boller or a late season start with the Raiders out of contention.

 

[Moon Knight]

No team is going to be dedicated to Garrard and he knows that. No matter where he signs this year it's just basically a try out for teams who may want to sign him in the off season. Pryor is also a non issue because he isn't seeing the field at qb this year barring an injury to Boller or a late season start with the Raiders out of contention.

Then why hasn't he signed with anybody? If he knows that why wait so long? I am not saying he won't but that it seems he wants something more secure. Pryor may see time, most are in agreement the Raiders may want him as a future QB, that he is kinda like the Raiders draft pick for next year as they gave one up to get him. I was never happy about the choice, but who knows.

 

[Stormtrooper]

Then why hasn't he signed with anybody? If he knows that why wait so long? I am not saying he won't but that it seems he wants something more secure. Pryor may see time, most are in agreement the Raiders may want him as a future QB, that he is kinda like the Raiders draft pick for next year as they gave one up to get him. I was never happy about the choice, but who knows.

Garrard has said that he wants to be guaranteed a starting job for the remainder of the season. He didn't sign with Miami before the season because they had Henne, and he didn't sign now because they weren't gonna guarantee him the job over Moore.

In Oakland, he would 100% be guaranteed the starting job for the remainder of the season. No way in hell the Raiders go to Pryor, he has been with the team a total of 5 days, and isn't anywhere near ready to start an NFL game. And Kyle "I should have been a" Boller sucks, and Garrard can beat him out for the job in his sleep.

 

[Moon Knight]

Garrard has said that he wants to be guaranteed a starting job for the remainder of the season. He didn't sign with Miami before the season because they had Henne, and he didn't sign now because they weren't gonna guarantee him the job over Moore.

In Oakland, he would 100% be guaranteed the starting job for the remainder of the season. No way in hell the Raiders go to Pryor, he has been with the team a total of 5 days, and isn't anywhere near ready to start an NFL game. And Kyle "I should have been a" Boller sucks, and Garrard can beat him out for the job in his sleep.

He isn't going to get that anywhere, just like in Jacksonville if he stinks it up he will get benched. If you want the job and want to keep it, work for it. I think he is asking for too much. He wasn't bad, just wasn't lights out and has been slipping a little. He never made many errors and limited INTS, look at his stats and he isn't much better than Campbell so the Raiders need to make him confident Pryor won't play this year. I don't think that was the Raiders plan to start Pryor, put him on the bench for a while and wait until next year so he can get all the off season stuff in. Even then he would have been a backup to Campbell. I mentioned Pryor because he seems to be the future and as a Raider fan we can never be too sure what that team will do..Call it the Al Davis effect which is still in our minds.

 

[Stormtrooper]

He isn't going to get that anywhere, just like in Jacksonville if he stinks it up he will get benched. If you want the job and want to keep it, work for it. I think he is asking for too much. He wasn't bad, just wasn't lights out and has been slipping a little. He never made many errors and limited INTS, look at his stats and he isn't much better than Campbell so the Raiders need to make him confident Pryor won't play this year. I don't think that was the Raiders plan to start Pryor, put him on the bench for a while and wait until next year so he can get all the off season stuff in. Even then he would have been a backup to Campbell. I mentioned Pryor because he seems to be the future and as a Raider fan we can never be too sure what that team will do..Call it the Al Davis effect which is still in our minds.

I would argue that Garrard would agree that if he plays like shit he should be benched, but the main thing is that he doesn't want to go to a place just to get cut a week or 2 later. He wants a job for the rest of the year, and he wants (probably) a small bit of guaranteed money. Miami wouldn't guarantee him a chance to start the rest of the year, which is why he didn't sign. Oakland would likely give him that shot, which is why it's a good fit.

Pryor will not at all start this year, and he most likely wouldn't start in 2012. Hell, if he's active at all this year it'd be a surprise. He wasn't active today, as he was shown in street clothes in the 4th quarter

OK, all this talk about Garrard is maybe a bit soon.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=jc-cole_winners_losers_jason_campbell_carson_palmer_101611

Apparently they are trying to get Carson Palmer? I like this, Palmer is better then Garrard.

 

[Big Sexy]

I'd take Palmer over Garrard as well but I doubt that deal happens. Cincinnati would be stupid not to trade him because they already have their qb of the future and might as well get something for Palmer but Mike Brown has always been a hard headed idiot.

 

[Stormtrooper]

I'd take Palmer over Garrard as well but I doubt that deal happens. Cincinnati would be stupid not to trade him because they already have their qb of the future and might as well get something for Palmer but Mike Brown has always been a hard headed idiot.

agree with virtually all of this. Especially about the QB of the future. The Red Rifle is fucking beast. I started him in Fantasy this week and he got me a solid 17 points, which is more then some of my Phil Rivers starts have gotten me.

 

[Thriller Ant]

THE CARDINALS ARE GOING TO THE WORLD SERIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Moon Knight]

I'd take Palmer over Garrard as well but I doubt that deal happens. Cincinnati would be stupid not to trade him because they already have their qb of the future and might as well get something for Palmer but Mike Brown has always been a hard headed idiot.

Tell me about it.....I never backed Brown in refusing to trade Palmer, it was just better for both sides that he be traded away. But as a Raider fan I would have to think about this, he was really good for a while but after that injury he was never the same. Garrard you could say played better last year than Palmer and an argument could be made he played as good or better the last two years.

 

[Stormtrooper]

To me I think Palmer is the better move if you think the Raiders think they have a shot at the division. I don't think David Garrard is a playoff-level QB, and I think a motivated Palmer (he hasn't been in years) can be a decent QB for a potential playoff team.

And in case you're wondering, I'm going to be using Andrew Luck to boost my post count. Everyone go back to my Suck for Luck thread.