The Problem With Entitlements

[klunderbunker]

If I may step into Sly's territory here: the educated term for what he's talking about is the Social Contract. In other words, citizens give up rights to certain things such as unlimited freedoms or money in the form of taxes in exchange for certain things from the government, such as safety, education etc. The simple fact that you live as a member of society in this country means that you abide by this contract and basically would not be able to maintain your way of life without the government in the way that it is run.

 

[Remix]

Becca has lived in England her whole life in a government funded healthcare system and to the best of my knowledge neither she nor any of her family has ever had to wait a lengthy amount of time to see a doctor. They've also never heard of co-pays.

Technically we do actually have a form of co-payment. There's a £7.65 (soon to become £7.85) charge on every prescribed item... that over 90% of people don't pay because there are a multitude of exclusion criteria, only applies for outpatients (i.e. those seeing a doctor in their office, not on a ward), and bares no relation to the actual cost of the drugs (literally, I've seen drugs that cost a hospital £0.01). But yeah, there's that.

 

[klunderbunker]

Technically we do actually have a form of co-payment. There's a £7.65 (soon to become £7.85) charge on every prescribed item... that over 90% of people don't pay because there are a multitude of exclusion criteria, only applies for outpatients (i.e. those seeing a doctor in their office, not on a ward), and bares no relation to the actual cost of the drugs (literally, I've seen drugs that cost a hospital £0.01). But yeah, there's that.

$35 for me every time I see a doctor, no exceptions.

 

[Slyfox696]

$35 for me every time I see a doctor, no exceptions.

What I find amusing is how people complain about Obamacare, and yet seem blind to the fact they've been paying for health insurance for the uninsureds visits to the hospital for decades. Because emergency rooms cannot deny anyone, regardless of their ability to pay, the amount of people who receive care in emergency rooms (who really don't need it) and don't pay for it greatly inflates the costs of healthcare for everyone. My cousin works as an ER doctor and once said that nearly 50% of ER bills go unpaid.

Those people who complain about Obamacare because they don't want to pay for others already have been for decades.

 

[Remix]

Well, that's just stupid. It also screws over patient care because doctors feel that they kinda have to prescribe something to justify that $35. Of course the NHS is borderline broke, staff are overworked, resources are stretched to breaking point and there's little that can be done because the economy is still poor in the UK. But better that than the broken as shit US system.

Step 1 for you guys, get rid of the paymaster and make a version of the drug tarrif that applies across the entire country.

 

[klunderbunker]

Well, that's just stupid. It also screws over patient care because doctors feel that they kinda have to prescribe something to justify that $35. Of course the NHS is borderline broke, staff are overworked, resources are stretched to breaking point and there's little that can be done because the economy is still poor in the UK. But better that than the broken as shit US system.

Step 1 for you guys, get rid of the paymaster and make a version of the drug tarrif that applies across the entire country.

Oh dude the 35 is just the copay. My doctor charges $150 per visit. I'm lucky enough to have insurance and only get to pay that 35, although once I see a doctor four times in a year (already done) I get to pay about 75 per visit. This is before any tests, medicine etc.

 

[One Punch Doug Crashin]

Hey Moon Knight, What do you say to people like myself who are learning disabled, classified as "can't work' by the government, and then try to get jobs themselves? Answer that one for me. Because there are people like that. And to them it's not an "entitlement" it's a way of helping them live in this world man.

Edit: this also goes to anyone who responded to this thread. It's a huge issue.

 

[scomvp316]

I don't want to come off as a cold bastard like so many conservatives do. I do understand their is a role for government. Clearly there are people who qualify and deserve federal,state,city assistance. I don't have the numbers available like most of us who don't work for a form of the government but I would say between 15-25% of people on some sort of assistance are abusing the system. There are also alot of people who have fallen on hard times that the government either tells them they don't qualify or give them diminished assistance compared to people who haven't put anything into the system or at the very least haven't put in the effort or the work ethic. There is so much fraud abuse across the board with the government and if they get rid of 80% of the fraud and abuse you would see the deficit go down much quicker along with increased tax revenues. I do believe there are people who deserve assistance but so many have also made a career of living off the system and unless they have unique circumstances beyond their control there must be steps to help those to achieve success and take the burden off of the government.

 

[Natural Selection]

That may be, but do you not sell that pizza for between $8 and $10?

Of course we do, that's business. There are also a lot more expenses that go into that pizza, food cost is only one.

Oh, a government program.

Never intended to be a federal government program, should be state run.

So many jokes, so little time. Question though, who taught you to read and do mathematics?

That would be my mother.

The civil war was not caused by slavery, however slavery was the most glaring issue of the battle between state and federal rights.

It's incorrect, but only because it is superficial, not because it's a lie. If that makes sense.

I get what you're saying and agree, that was part of my point, but there were so many compounding factors that made slavery the glaring issue it was.

Why not? Is it because you're depending upon government to require a certain standard for drinking water?

Once again, should be state run. If anything they need me, after all I am paying for the service. Without them I can survive, as they are not the only means of water. Without me they are out of my annual contribution of revenue.

It wasn't exactly a subtle point I was making. You depend on government every day. Every morning you wake up without a Chinese rifle in your face, you can thank our strong federal army.

You can also thank our police, our state militias, our armed citizens, our nuclear weapons and so on. Yes, I agree one of the duties of the federal government/military is to protect our borders.

Every time you drive to work, you can thank your federal, state and/or local governments for paving the roads you drive on.

Should only be local and state. This is not a place the fed is needed. Federal involvement in such things always leads to "Oh, really you don't want to go along. That's fine. No more funding for you"

Every time you eat a piece of meat, you depend on the federal government to set and regulate the standards required for processing meat, as do the customers of Papa Johns who, in essence, pay your salary and provide for your ability to live.

So, the federal government is the only entity capable of this? No, it's merely designated itself as such.

You depend upon the government every day. For you to cast such a phrase at others as an insult is kind of silly.

Which is a problem. The government should depend on us, not the other way around.

It's amazing how much things improve when you agree with me.

Now, wouldn't it be kind of boring if we all agreed on everything?

Nevermind, I'll ask Peyton Manning when I see him.

Be sure to tell him I said "Fuck the Broncos"

Btw, did you work out that leave of absence you were planning on taking from Papa John's?

Nope just suffering through. Few set backs, but the future looks bright.

 

[Slyfox696]

Of course we do, that's business. There are also a lot more expenses that go into that pizza, food cost is only one.

That's kind of my point. If we assume $10 for a pizza, and 2 million pizzas given away for free, that's $20 million. Healthcare for Papa John's employees would have cost $8 million, if I'm not mistaken.

Once again, should be state run.

But it's federally regulated. And if it was state regulated, they would need more of your tax dollars anyways, and nothing would change with entitlements.

If anything they need me, after all I am paying for the service. Without them I can survive, as they are not the only means of water. Without me they are out of my annual contribution of revenue.

Without them, you're drinking whatever junk the local factory dumps in your water source. That's the point. You DEPEND on the government to regulate the safe levels for drinking water.

You can also thank our police, our state militias, our armed citizens,

None of which would help if the Chinese invaded the United States. It's the power of the federal army which keeps them at bay.

our nuclear weapons

Which is part of the federal military armaments.

Yes, I agree one of the duties of the federal government/military is to protect our borders.

And they need your money to do so. You DEPEND on the government for this.

Should only be local and state. This is not a place the fed is needed. Federal involvement in such things always leads to "Oh, really you don't want to go along. That's fine. No more funding for you"

Quite honestly, that is incredibly narrow minded. Interstates have are an incredibly important part of our infrastructure. By the way, your supply trucks for your store most likely use interstates. Your business depends on the government. You depend on the government.

So, the federal government is the only entity capable of this?

Under the Constitution, yes.

Section 8:

3: To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

Now, wouldn't it be kind of boring if we all agreed on everything?

Perhaps, but imagine how much better the world would be if everyone agreed with me.


At the end of the day, you depend on government, from local, state and federal levels, every single day. For you to cast an insult at others, saying their future is to depend on government, that's silly. You depend on government, just like everyone else. And, at the end of the day, government depends upon you.

You give our government money and they spend it in ways to better the city, state or country.

 

[Nate DaMac]

As I've said before I run a Papa John's. Not quite a CEO, but it pays the bills.

You're a GM of a Papa John's and you are living paycheck to paycheck? I've worked at 3 different Sonic restaurants now and at all 3 of them the GMs were making 100,000+.

Your job sucks.

 

[Natural Selection]

You're a GM of a Papa John's and you are living paycheck to paycheck? I've worked at 3 different Sonic restaurants now and at all 3 of them the GMs were making 100,000+.

Your job sucks.

I agree, if this is a good year I'll make 40k.

That's kind of my point. If we assume $10 for a pizza, and 2 million pizzas given away for free, that's $20 million. Healthcare for Papa John's employees would have cost $8 million, if I'm not mistaken.

Healthcare is not a business concern, money is. Business doesn't pay taxes, the consumer does.

But it's federally regulated. And if it was state regulated, they would need more of your tax dollars anyways, and nothing would change with entitlements.

That's my point, of course the fed has it's role, it's role has simply been over extended time and time again.

Without them, you're drinking whatever junk the local factory dumps in your water source. That's the point. You DEPEND on the government to regulate the safe levels for drinking water.

All water can be purified.

And they need your money to do so. You DEPEND on the government for this.

Which is what they want.

Quite honestly, that is incredibly narrow minded. Interstates have are an incredibly important part of our infrastructure. By the way, your supply trucks for your store most likely use interstates. Your business depends on the government. You depend on the government.

I'm not saying destroy interstates, if anything I'm saying within the states borders it should be state maintained.

Under the Constitution, yes.

I stand corrected.

Perhaps, but imagine how much better the world would be if everyone agreed with me.

Your ego doesn't need that kind of inflation.

At the end of the day, you depend on government, from local, state and federal levels, every single day. For you to cast an insult at others, saying their future is to depend on government, that's silly. You depend on government, just like everyone else. And, at the end of the day, government depends upon you.

I wish that was still true.

You give our government money and they spend it in ways to better the city, state or country.

No, they don't. The amount of waste in Washington is substantially larger then the "benefits" received at the local, state, and national level.

 

[Thriller Ant]

No, they don't. The amount of waste in Washington is substantially larger then the "benefits" received at the local, state, and national level.

You mean like a Senator getting paid to hold up a vote to talk about unrelated issues and read Tweets?

 

[Natural Selection]

You mean like a Senator getting paid to hold up a vote to talk about unrelated issues and read Tweets?

No, more like http://blog.heritage.org/2012/10/16/top-10-examples-of-wasteful-federal-spending-in-2012/

 

[GI Cake]

I've lived off entitlement programs for most of my life. When my dad left the Army and the only job he could get was being a security guard at a Best Buy, we had food stamps to put food on the table. Shit for Christmas I remember going fucking crazy when I got Lucky Charms. When I went to school I was given free lunch because my parents were unable to pay for school lunch (which is pretty freaking cheap in hindsight) and when I played football in high school, I managed to cover the costs that paid for my equipment by spending the weekends cleaning for my coaches grandfathers house.

Now in college the Pell grant pays for well over half of my tuition, the other half comes straight out of my ass, and finding a job that wants to hire a student who is going to school full time is tough. I've had jobs where I asked for less hours to focus on class saddle me with more than over the part time work week (There were weeks I was working at Target 50-55 hours a week)

Is there a problem with entitlement programs? Absolutely, then again there is a problem with everything in the world, you can't just group everyone in the same group to benefit your shitty opinion on people who don't make 100 thousand dollars a year. I work my ass off despite taking government aide, does that make me a moocher?

 

[Natural Selection]

Is there a problem with entitlement programs? Absolutely, then again there is a problem with everything in the world, you can't just group everyone in the same group to benefit your shitty opinion on people who don't make 100 thousand dollars a year. I work my ass off despite taking government aide, does that make me a moocher?

This is the same tired ass argument. The world is fucked up, so lets do nothing about it and take it for all it's worth. I don't make 100 thousand dollars over the course of two years. Yet I don't take entitlements.

You know what, fuck it. Why don't I just divorce my wife, claim her as a room mate and then we can collect all the government entitlements on top of my salary. Committing the fraud and abuse seems like it would get over with this crowd better anyways. Is that what you all think I should do? I mean it would effectively double my income and she would get twice as much at the end of the year claiming our son as a dependent with no income only government aid. Yeah, that's the right thing to do.

 

[Slyfox696]

This is the same tired ass argument. The world is fucked up, so lets do nothing about it and take it for all it's worth. I don't make 100 thousand dollars over the course of two years. Yet I don't take entitlements.

You know what, fuck it. Why don't I just divorce my wife, claim her as a room mate and then we can collect all the government entitlements on top of my salary. Committing the fraud and abuse seems like it would get over with this crowd better anyways. Is that what you all think I should do? I mean it would effectively double my income and she would get twice as much at the end of the year claiming our son as a dependent with no income only government aid. Yeah, that's the right thing to do.

If this is really what you took from his post, then I'm not even going to bother replying to your other one.

By the way, since you're married with a child, and since you're against government handouts, am I right in assuming you do not take any tax breaks at all?

 

[Remy LaCroix]

ITT: right-winger saying poor people are incapable of saving their earnings because, hey, they don't have bills or expenses to pay!

Also, 40k sounds like an awful lot of money, yet you're living paycheck-to-paycheck? I call bullshit.

 

[Lee]

This is the same tired ass argument. The world is fucked up, so lets do nothing about it and take it for all it's worth. I don't make 100 thousand dollars over the course of two years. Yet I don't take entitlements.

You know what, fuck it. Why don't I just divorce my wife, claim her as a room mate and then we can collect all the government entitlements on top of my salary. Committing the fraud and abuse seems like it would get over with this crowd better anyways. Is that what you all think I should do? I mean it would effectively double my income and she would get twice as much at the end of the year claiming our son as a dependent with no income only government aid. Yeah, that's the right thing to do.

Because that's breaking the law? Why don't I just rob a fucking bank?

 

[Natural Selection]

If this is really what you took from his post, then I'm not even going to bother replying to your other one.

By the way, since you're married with a child, and since you're against government handouts, am I right in assuming you do not take any tax breaks at all?

Of course I take tax breaks, that's what evil Republicans do right? Tax breaks are not the same as handouts, but go ahead and explain how they are.

ITT: right-winger saying poor people are incapable of saving their earnings because, hey, they don't have bills or expenses to pay!

Also, 40k sounds like an awful lot of money, yet you're living paycheck-to-paycheck? I call bullshit.

Are you insane? 40k is nowhere near an awful lot of money.

And I said

I agree, if this is a good year I'll make 40k.

In a GOOD year I'll make 40k.

 

[Natural Selection]

Because that's breaking the law? Why don't I just rob a fucking bank?

But I need it, my wife doesn't work and she should still get paid by the government.

 

[GI Cake]

If you only make 40K a year as a General Manager you need to find a new line of work, I have friends who work at Costco as simple sales grunts who make 45-50K a year.

 

[Slyfox696]

Of course I take tax breaks, that's what evil Republicans do right?

No, it's what smart people do.

Tax breaks are not the same as handouts, but go ahead and explain how they are.

What's the difference? When you take your tax break, all your doing is contributing to our national deficit, which then becomes burdensome upon me and everyone else in the country.

 

[Natural Selection]

Yes, everything you say is right everything I say is wrong

BEING SARCASTIC

 

[Slyfox696]

Yes, everything you say is right everything I say is wrong

BEING SARCASTIC

Instead of being sarcastic, please explain the difference. You make $40,000 a year, which is more than I make. You seem to think taking benefits offered to you by the government is burdensome upon the rest of society, but you don't seem to mind driving the interstates put down by the government, drinking the water which has been regulated to safe levels by the government and taking the tax breaks which have been extended to you by the government.

Could you please explain the difference?