The Official Shawn Michaels Thread

[hlhbk]

I have been trying to tell people this in this thread and in the HHH thread. Idk why they can't comprehend it. Do you also agree that, without Shawn, HHH wouldn't be as popular as he is today?

Well that is a double edge sword for me. I think that if Hunter hadn't latched on to Shawn he would have been stuck at mid card and as soon as he got a sniff of the main event he probably would have been back in WCW. Once it folded I think he would have gone back to WWF/E and finally got his chance.

So to anwser your question I think eventually he would have gone up the ranks and been really big, but I don't think he would have been nearly as popular as he always will be since joining the clique.

I know that you could go on. Any wrestling fan should be able to go on. Great list by the way. I'm not to familiar with the TNA ones, but I am sure that they can't be as bad as Cena.

I highly suggest you watch some matches of the TNA guys. i am not a TNA fan at all, I don't watch it regularly, but guys like Joe and AJ Styles are amazing.

Be ready, because when it is replied to something like, "I'm sure if Cena wasn't the most talented then he wouldn't be the most popular," or, "Look at where Benjamin is today, HBK did nothing for him," will be said. But you aren't talking about putting anyone over now are you?

Well in my opinion you can put someone over without losing to them. In the match I am referring to Shelton's stock rose ten fold. Not only that he also had HHH jobbing for him when he came over to RAW initally. Shelton is very talented in the ring, but he needs to find a gimmick that will allow him to get over. That's his and management's fault he is stuck on ECW. That being said Shawn did nothing but help Shelton in that match.

As far as being the most popular....congratulations you won a popularity contest! It doesn't mean you are talented at all. It means all those little kids and women who love Cena bought into his sex appeal and hype from the WWE. We are being force fed Cena just like we were Hogan.

Speaking of Hogan I saw elsewhere in this thread that Hogan was mentioned as the best wrestler ever. Based on what? I know you aren't talking about in ring talent and ability?!? I depise Cena, but he is 100 times better than Hogan ever was in the ring.

They will argue that Cena carried those matches and HBK was along for the ride. However, we know better.

If they come in here with that here is my response to that. Find me another match that Cena was in that made him look as good as he did against HBK. You won't find it. There is a reason Cena is on the HBK dvd giving him his praises, he knows who the man is.

The sad part is Shawn gave everything he had for the WWE. He risked paralysis in his match vs Austin at WM 14 (yet another match that was far better than any matches with Cena in them), and carried the company during it's by far darkest time, and never gets the proper respect he deserves.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Without DX there would have been no beer drinking, flipping the bird, swearing, or anything else the attitude had. The faction may have been a rip off and paraody of the nWo, but the ideas behind the attitude era that eventually became what it was came from Shawn. You don't believe me? How about reading Bret Hart's book, he blames Shawn for what wrestling became.



Would you like this all time or current? I will do both for you.

All time not in any order:
1. HBK
2. Flair
3. Bret Hart
4. HHH
5. Randy Savage
6. Sting
7. Scott Hall
8. Owen Hart
9. Steve Austin
10. The Rock
11. The Undertaker
12. Jericho
13. WCW and ECW's Rey Mysterio (what WWE has done to him is terrible)
14. RVD
15. Raven
16. Taz
17. Sabu
18. Ted DiBiase
19. Jake Roberts
20. Mr. Perfect

I could go on if you would like?

20 currently wrestling not in any order:
1. HBK
2. Angle
3. HHH
4. Orton
5. Jericho
6. AJ Styles
7. Taker.
8. Edge
9. Christian
10. CM Punk
11. Morrison
12. Jeff Hardy
13. Batista
14. MVP
15. Kennedy (he is still active and will end up in TNA once his non compete clause is up)
16. Matt Hardy
17. Shelton Benjamin
18. Somoa Joe
19. Jay Lethal
20 Christopher Daniels.

Again I could keep going if you want?

What you need to understand is that just because you are the most popular doesn't mean you are the most talented. Not everyone listed up there is considered one of the best ever, but take one look at a match like Shelton Benjamin vs. HBK and you see a match and story telling in the ring that Cena could only hope to get close to.

The only decent Cena match I have ever seen was the ones HBK carried him through.

Also if you decide to dismiss any of these I would like a reason and an example of when Cena has told a better story in the ring than the person you discredit.

On a scale from 1-10, I am going to give you all-time list a 6 because some of the wrestlers you listed are just laughable.

My main two problems are with RVD and Sabu. You really put Sabu on that list? Give Sabu a weapon and he's good but don't give him one and he is crap. Sabu has no reason being on mostly anybody's list of best wrestler. RVD has never displayed ring psychology in his matches. It's just spot after spot after spot. He was supposed to be a heel during the Invasion angle but he was the most cheered because of the flashy moves he did. A heel is not supposed to do flashy moves but I guess Van Dam couldn't comprehend that.

I am going to give your current list a 3 out of 10 and I'm being kind. There is no way and I mean no way that Kennedy, Morrison, and especially Benjamin are better workers than Cena. It took Morrison five years for anybody to give a damn about him and he finally turned face as he was horrible as a heel.

Your keyboard should have locked up after you typed Shelton Benjamin. The only and I mean only thing Benjamin maybe has over Cena is athleticism and that's it. Benjamin is spotty, a horrible worker, horrible wrestler, no charisma. I read that Cena can't lace HBK's boots. Well, Benjamin can't lace Cena's boots because he is ten times better than Shelton is. And that great HBK/Shelton match you stated, what did that do for Shelton? Has he done anything noteworthy since then and the answer is no? You would think he would have came out better facing the almighty HBK but he didn't.

I guess you haven't watched many Cena matches because he had great ones against Umaga, Khali, Lashley, Edge, Orton, HBK, and Swagger. How many great HBK matches were there in same time span? His matches with Jericho were good at best and you want to talk about HBK carrying Cena which I will have to respond like this, Jericho carried HBK through most of their feud last year. Y2J did most of the work with his perfect heel turn and all HBK did was whine and mope around which seems to be what he does most of the time now. Their ladder match was far from the best out there and Jericho deserves most of the credit for that feud.

 

[hlhbk]

On a scale from 1-10, I am going to give you all-time list a 6 because some of the wrestlers you listed are just laughable.

My main two problems are with RVD and Sabu. You really put Sabu on that list? Give Sabu a weapon and he's good but don't give him one and he is crap. Sabu has no reason being on mostly anybody's list of best wrestler. RVD has never displayed ring psychology in his matches. It's just spot after spot after spot. He was supposed to be a heel during the Invasion angle but he was the most cheered because of the flashy moves he did. A heel is not supposed to do flashy moves but I guess Van Dam couldn't comprehend that.

I am going to give your current list a 3 out of 10 and I'm being kind. There is no way and I mean no way that Kennedy, Morrison, and especially Benjamin are better workers than Cena. It took Morrison five years for anybody to give a damn about him and he finally turned face as he was horrible as a heel.

Your keyboard should have locked up after you typed Shelton Benjamin. The only and I mean only thing Benjamin maybe has over Cena is athleticism and that's it. Benjamin is spotty, a horrible worker, horrible wrestler, no charisma. I read that Cena can't lace HBK's boots. Well, Benjamin can't lace Cena's boots because he is ten times better than Shelton is. And that great HBK/Shelton match you stated, what did that do for Shelton? Has he done anything noteworthy since then and the answer is no? You would think he would have came out better facing the almighty HBK but he didn't.

I guess you haven't watched many Cena matches because he had great ones against Umaga, Khali, Lashley, Edge, Orton, HBK, and Swagger. How many great HBK matches were there in same time span? His matches with Jericho were good at best and you want to talk about HBK carrying Cena which I will have to respond like this, Jericho carried HBK through most of their feud last year. Y2J did most of the work with his perfect heel turn and all HBK did was whine and mope around which seems to be what he does most of the time now. Their ladder match was far from the best out there and Jericho deserves most of the credit for that feud.

Well you just lost any credability you had. Again name me a match that Cena has looked good as he did against Shawn, cause any of the matches you listed so far were terrible. Every time Cena comes out I always either turn the channel if I am watching live, or fast foward on the DVR. His matches are always the same and terrible.

Shelton may not be the best overall wrestler, but he is far better than Cena. Heck Eugene is better than Cena.

You aren't a fan of wrestling, you are a fan of sports entertainment. Don't get them confused.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Well you just lost any credability you had. Again name me a match that Cena has looked good as he did against Shawn, cause any of the matches you listed so far were terrible. Every time Cena comes out I always either turn the channel if I am watching live, or fast foward on the DVR. His matches are always the same and terrible.

Shelton may not be the best overall wrestler, but he is far better than Cena. Heck Eugene is better than Cena.

You aren't a fan of wrestling, you are a fan of sports entertainment. Don't get them confused.

Cena against Orton at Summerslam 2007 for starters. Looked good against Umaga and Khali, didn't he? Name me a match in with HBK looked as good as he did against Cena in that same timeframe because the matches you listed were terrible. See what I did there.

List three things Shelton does better than Cena and I will tell you those three things don't mean anything. Shelton is and will never be better than Cena. If he hasn't yet, he's never going to be.

To correct you yet again, I am a fan of pro wrestling and entertainment. Basically, a pro wrestler is an entertainer and Cena does it better than anybody else. Right now, he does it better than HBK.

 

[The Todd]

You aren't a fan of wrestling, you are a fan of sports entertainment. Don't get them confused.

PROFESSIONAL WRESTLING IS SPORTS ENTERTAINMENT! If you are a fan of wrestling and not entertainment then go and watch the amateur stuff. The ability to draw and entertain is much more important than suplexes. Hell, the WWE gets their money from PPV buys which rests on the superstars ability to draw, by the time the match starts they already have your money.

That's way off topic mind you, so I'll talk about HBK. He's a very good professional wrestler but won't go down as one of the best ever. He's had some very good matches though also some matches that are procalimed as very good yet wern't which helps him get more credit than he deserves.

He was the main man in the business before a boom period then returned after the boom had ended. He can certainly work a crowd though, the feud he had with JBL proved this. He is extremely good at that. Also his feud with Jericho showed he is stil capable of putting on a great show. He will be remembered as a great superstar, but not the best.

 

[hlhbk]

Cena against Orton at Summerslam 2007 for starters. Looked good against Umaga and Khali, didn't he? Name me a match in with HBK looked as good as he did against Cena in that same timeframe because the matches you listed were terrible. See what I did there.

List three things Shelton does better than Cena and I will tell you those three things don't mean anything. Shelton is and will never be better than Cena. If he hasn't yet, he's never going to be.

To correct you yet again, I am a fan of pro wrestling and entertainment. Basically, a pro wrestler is an entertainer and Cena does it better than anybody else. Right now, he does it better than HBK.

His matches with Umaga and Kahli were terrible. His match vs Orton was only good because he had vastly superior talent across the ring from him to carry him. Any of Shawn's matches dating to back when he was a Rocker to now are better than anything Cena has ever done.

To both of you arguing that sports entertainment is professional wrestling. The fans of professional wrestling would disagree with you. They aren't the same. John Cena is sports entertainment, HBK is professional wrestling. There is a huge difference.

My love for this business is the in ring action, and if you can't wow me there you are dead to me in any other fawcett. It's the reason I can barely stand to watch most of what WWE has on these days. You must have the in ring technical wrestling ability or you can't call yourself the best. Cena definitely isn't anywhere near the best in the ring.

 

[Kesteral]

I'm watching Shawn in 1997 and by god he's agile, he's flying around the ring and even though he's still great now I do miss this Shawn Michaels. I know he'll never be this quick again and especially after the injury in the casket match but it's brilliant to watch. I hope that one day someone comes along who's half as good as HBK because he'll still be better than everyone else. For me personally he's in a league of his own that no one can touch. You see hundreds of guys who can wrestle well but can't talk, or vice versa but I can't think of many people who excel on the mic and in the ring. So cocky, so much charisma, so brilliant to watch.

 

[SSJPhenom]

My love for this business is the in ring action, and if you can't wow me there you are dead to me in any other fawcett. It's the reason I can barely stand to watch most of what WWE has on these days. You must have the in ring technical wrestling ability or you can't call yourself the best. Cena definitely isn't anywhere near the best in the ring.

I don't understand why people can't understand this. They seem to think if you can come out and get a mic and talk a big game and get some cheers,then you are a good WRESTLER. Hell, I can talk shit a microphone to and be funny as hell(I do it in college), so, by their logic, I can be one of the best to ever lace them up, although im not atheletic at all!

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

His matches with Umaga and Kahli were terrible. His match vs Orton was only good because he had vastly superior talent across the ring from him to carry him. Any of Shawn's matches dating to back when he was a Rocker to now are better than anything Cena has ever done.

To both of you arguing that sports entertainment is professional wrestling. The fans of professional wrestling would disagree with you. They aren't the same. John Cena is sports entertainment, HBK is professional wrestling. There is a huge difference.

My love for this business is the in ring action, and if you can't wow me there you are dead to me in any other fawcett. It's the reason I can barely stand to watch most of what WWE has on these days. You must have the in ring technical wrestling ability or you can't call yourself the best. Cena definitely isn't anywhere near the best in the ring.

For the last time, pro wrestling is sports entertainment. If you want to watch wrestling and not entertainment, go watch amateur wrestling.

You said any of Shawn's matches has been better than anything Cena's ever done. How about that HBK/Khali match then? Watch it and get back to me so you can change that statement.

You're probably in the minority of those fans who just love wrestling and not entertainment. Cena has wrestling ability and he stuck to a moveset that worked and he's the best in the business right now. HBK can give you a good match here and there but Cena has been more consistent and that's why right now Cena is better than HBK.

 

[hlhbk]

For the last time, pro wrestling is sports entertainment. If you want to watch wrestling and not entertainment, go watch amateur wrestling.

You said any of Shawn's matches has been better than anything Cena's ever done. How about that HBK/Khali match then? Watch it and get back to me so you can change that statement.

You're probably in the minority of those fans who just love wrestling and not entertainment. Cena has wrestling ability and he stuck to a moveset that worked and he's the best in the business right now. HBK can give you a good match here and there but Cena has been more consistent and that's why right now Cena is better than HBK.

Yeah Cena has been consistently terrible. For the last time pro wrestling is not sports entertainment, if it was then the WWE announcers would still be allowed to call it as such. They also would be allowed to call the "superstars" professional wrestlers, which they are not allowed to do anymore. Why do you think TNA makes it such a point of doing both of those things? It's because McMahon won't allow it in the WWE.

Why do you think during the whole ECW thing back in 06 before McMahon made it another WWE brand Joey Styles brought it up in a semi shoot interview? Also you talk about how the wrestling is not important. You sit down purists like Flair, HHH, HBK, Bret Hart, Jericho, and they all would tell you that you don't know what you are talking about.

You say there is a minority like me? Most of the internet community are like me. If you want someone good on the mic and don't care about the wrestling then just go watch daily soap operas, cause that is what you are actually supporting.

I respect Bret Hart a ton, and in his book he says the art of wrestling is dead. I don't agree who he blames it on (HBK, and HHH when he should still be blaming Vince), but I do agree with what he said. The fact you consider Hogan the best wrestler ever pretty much shows you know nothing about actual wrestling talent.

HBK vs Khali was far better than Cena vs Khali. My point here is that Cena matches start out terrible, and only if the talent across the ring is better than him do his matches get better.

As far as Cena's moveset, Hunter has said in interviews that when Cena came over to Raw he was worried about his lack of wrestling ability. You talk about how Cena gives consistent great matches? The only match I was impressed with that had Cena in it this year was vs the Miz, and talk about not putting someone over or making them look better than when you started a fued, look how Cena buried the Miz.

The end all be all as far as I and REAL wrestling fans are concerned is this. You take away the the hype, you take away the promos, and you put Cena and Shawn in seperate matches one after the other against equal quality opponents in terms of wrestling ability who has the better match. Any fan of in ring action knows the anwser is HBK, and if HBK was in his prime it wouldn't even be close.

 

[The Todd]

Yeah Cena has been consistently terrible. For the last time pro wrestling is not sports entertainment, if it was then the WWE announcers would still be allowed to call it as such.

Yes it is. What an idiotic statement. Professional wrestling takes into account everything from marketability, ability to cut a promo, in ring psychology. One of the best in ring technicians was Dean Malenko. Remember him? He was a shit professional wrestler because he wasn't a draw and couldn't cut a promo. yes he put on very good matches occasionally but the majority of the crowd didn't care about him so he never got a title shot.

You sit down purists like Flair, HHH, HBK, Bret Hart, Jericho, and they all would tell you that you don't know what you are talking about.

They'd say it to 99.9% of all wrestling fans actually, you included.

You say there is a minority like me? Most of the internet community are like me.

1) The internet community is a minority. 2) If most agreed with you, there wouldn't be many people arguing with you.

If you want someone good on the mic and don't care about the wrestling then just go watch daily soap operas, cause that is what you are actually supporting.

In ring matters, but it is their ability to tell a story that is of most importance NOT how good their submission hold looks.

I respect Bret Hart a ton, and in his book he says the art of wrestling is dead.

Some people don't respect Bret Hart, including Ric Flair. Remember him?

The fact you consider Hogan the best wrestler ever pretty much shows you know nothing about actual wrestling talent.

Without Hogan there wouldn't be a WWE now. He is much more important in the history of professional wrestling than Bret Hart is. There is a reason Hogan and Austin are widely acknowledged as the most important superstars in wrestling history

HBK vs Khali was far better than Cena vs Khali. My point here is that Cena matches start out terrible, and only if the talent across the ring is better than him do his matches get better.

So Bobby Lashley, a man who had shit matches with everyone, was responsible for the classic with Cena? Umaga was responsible for the classis with Cena? Edge was solely responsible for his numerous classics with Cena? A very green jack Swagger responsible for the tv match of the year so far between him and Cena? I could go on and on.

As far as Cena's moveset, Hunter has said in interviews that when Cena came over to Raw he was worried about his lack of wrestling ability.

And has since acknowledged how well Cena was worked towards improving and now calls himt he best in the business.

look how Cena buried the Miz.

You mean in that feud that took Miz from opening ECW in tag team matches to being in the penultimate match on a ppv? Yeah, proper buried The Miz was.

The end all be all as far as I and REAL wrestling fans are concerned is this.

Oh, the emphasis on the word REAL isn't good. If you have to say people who don't agree with you aren't real fans you are clutching at straws.

You take away the the hype, you take away the promos,

Who would watch?

and you put Cena and Shawn in seperate matches one after the other against equal quality opponents in terms of wrestling ability who has the better match.

Cena. HBK's matches involve lying around on the floor with another 40+ year old man and are suddenly called classics. Cena works his arse off and people still don't give him the credit he deserves.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

Yeah Cena has been consistently terrible. For the last time pro wrestling is not sports entertainment, if it was then the WWE announcers would still be allowed to call it as such. They also would be allowed to call the "superstars" professional wrestlers, which they are not allowed to do anymore. Why do you think TNA makes it such a point of doing both of those things? It's because McMahon won't allow it in the WWE.

Why do you think during the whole ECW thing back in 06 before McMahon made it another WWE brand Joey Styles brought it up in a semi shoot interview? Also you talk about how the wrestling is not important. You sit down purists like Flair, HHH, HBK, Bret Hart, Jericho, and they all would tell you that you don't know what you are talking about.

You say there is a minority like me? Most of the internet community are like me. If you want someone good on the mic and don't care about the wrestling then just go watch daily soap operas, cause that is what you are actually supporting.

I respect Bret Hart a ton, and in his book he says the art of wrestling is dead. I don't agree who he blames it on (HBK, and HHH when he should still be blaming Vince), but I do agree with what he said. The fact you consider Hogan the best wrestler ever pretty much shows you know nothing about actual wrestling talent.

HBK vs Khali was far better than Cena vs Khali. My point here is that Cena matches start out terrible, and only if the talent across the ring is better than him do his matches get better.

As far as Cena's moveset, Hunter has said in interviews that when Cena came over to Raw he was worried about his lack of wrestling ability. You talk about how Cena gives consistent great matches? The only match I was impressed with that had Cena in it this year was vs the Miz, and talk about not putting someone over or making them look better than when you started a fued, look how Cena buried the Miz.

The end all be all as far as I and REAL wrestling fans are concerned is this. You take away the the hype, you take away the promos, and you put Cena and Shawn in seperate matches one after the other against equal quality opponents in terms of wrestling ability who has the better match. Any fan of in ring action knows the anwser is HBK, and if HBK was in his prime it wouldn't even be close.

I will now respond to your statement like this.



HBK put on a greater match with Khali than Cena. That could possibly the most hilarious thing I have ever read on here. HBK couldn't dream a better match with Khali then Cena did in reality. I don't even know if you did watch that HBK/Khali match because HBK didn't do a thing. He couldn't even attempt Sweet Chin Music in that match. You lose on that one.

How did Miz get "buried in that match". He got most of his offense in and Cena won. Miz wasn't going to dominate that match completely and win nor the other way around. It's foolish to think otherwise. Miz came out looking better than he did coming in. He has a chance to win the United States championship. Did he have a chance before facing Cena? Probably not because when Miz came over to RAW, he needed a test. Cena give him an opportunity to see if Miz can wrestle with the elite. This was just a start for Miz and he will get plenty more but he wasn't going to win his first time out. You lose again.

Wrestling is just a small part of the whole grand scheme. Why do you think guys like Dean Malenko or Lance Storm never made it big in the WWE? Because they didn't have the other attributes it takes to succeed there. No charisma and no marketability and they couldn't entertain the majority of the crowd. Pro wrestling and sports entertainment are basically the same thing and that's why I watch the WWE. RAW is mainly entertainment and Smackdown is mainly wrestling.

Hogan is the best wrestler in history and you say he didn't know much about wrestling. Go watch his early work and see that he was a great technical wrestler. He stuck to something that work later and he was the most successful person at it. You lose again.

 

[hlhbk]

Yes it is. What an idiotic statement. Professional wrestling takes into account everything from marketability, ability to cut a promo, in ring psychology. One of the best in ring technicians was Dean Malenko. Remember him? He was a shit professional wrestler because he wasn't a draw and couldn't cut a promo. yes he put on very good matches occasionally but the majority of the crowd didn't care about him so he never got a title shot.

Oh you mean the Dean Malenko that was in the 4 horseman? I would call that pretty successful. I loved the guy, and felt that he was very underrated. Also you never even responded to 95% of the things I used as proof the two are different.

They'd say it to 99.9% of all wrestling fans actually, you included.

I never said that I knew all about wrestling, but I would put any amount of money down that if you ask anyone in the industry who is better 100% of them would say HBK.

1) The internet community is a minority. 2) If most agreed with you, there wouldn't be many people arguing with you.

Like time I checked in a 7 page thread only 2 people are trying to argue a point they are wrong about.

In ring matters, but it is their ability to tell a story that is of most importance NOT how good their submission hold looks.

There ability to tell a story in the ring (NOT ON A MIC) is the most important thing. Cena doesn't do this. Cena does the whole superman thing and unless you hear the interviews he gives then you could care less about his matches. Shawn can take a one night match like the one with Shelton B. and tell a story with it and there is no build up.

Some people don't respect Bret Hart, including Ric Flair. Remember him?

Flair is entitled to his opinion, but I think he is wrong. A large portion of the wrestlers loved the hitman.

Without Hogan there wouldn't be a WWE now. He is much more important in the history of professional wrestling than Bret Hart is. There is a reason Hogan and Austin are widely acknowledged as the most important superstars in wrestling history

So we can say that without Hogan there wouldn't be a WWE but we can't say without Shawn the WWE never would have made it out of it's dark times when he was champ? How does that work?

Also as far as he being more important than Bret . Without Bret and Bret's family wrestling would be a much different and worse bussiness than it is now. Hogan can thank Vince McMahon for creating his character, cause without that gimmick Hogan never would have been anything in the wrestling bussiness.

So Bobby Lashley, a man who had shit matches with everyone, was responsible for the classic with Cena? Umaga was responsible for the classis with Cena? Edge was solely responsible for his numerous classics with Cena? A very green jack Swagger responsible for the tv match of the year so far between him and Cena? I could go on and on.

Umaga was far better in the ring than Cena as was Edge, and Swagger. I thought the Lashley match was terrible.

And has since acknowledged how well Cena was worked towards improving and now calls himt he best in the business.

Hunter has said Cena is getting better. He has never said Cena is the best.

You mean in that feud that took Miz from opening ECW in tag team matches to being in the penultimate match on a ppv? Yeah, proper buried The Miz was.

Then by your definition Shelton B wasn't buried by HBK right? What would letting the Miz win one of those matches have done for his career?

Oh, the emphasis on the word REAL isn't good. If you have to say people who don't agree with you aren't real fans you are clutching at straws.

I am not clutching at anything. I could go out there and work the crowd into a frenzy, does that make a pro wrestler? Because esentially that is what you are saying it's about.

Who would watch?

There was no buildup to the Shelton B vs HBK match and I sure watched.

Cena. HBK's matches involve lying around on the floor with another 40+ year old man and are suddenly called classics. Cena works his arse off and people still don't give him the credit he deserves.

I give him the credit he deserves, he is good on the mic and other than that is terrible.

 

[hlhbk]

I will now respond to your statement like this.



HBK put on a greater match with Khali than Cena. That could possibly the most hilarious thing I have ever read on here. HBK couldn't dream a better match with Khali then Cena did in reality. I don't even know if you did watch that HBK/Khali match because HBK didn't do a thing. He couldn't even attempt Sweet Chin Music in that match. You lose on that one.

All HBK has to do is step in the ring and let the bell sound and he already has better matches than Cena.

How did Miz get "buried in that match". He got most of his offense in and Cena won. Miz wasn't going to dominate that match completely and win nor the other way around. It's foolish to think otherwise. Miz came out looking better than he did coming in. He has a chance to win the United States championship. Did he have a chance before facing Cena? Probably not because when Miz came over to RAW, he needed a test. Cena give him an opportunity to see if Miz can wrestle with the elite. This was just a start for Miz and he will get plenty more but he wasn't going to win his first time out. You lose again.

See my response about this.

Wrestling is just a small part of the whole grand scheme. Why do you think guys like Dean Malenko or Lance Storm never made it big in the WWE? Because they didn't have the other attributes it takes to succeed there. No charisma and no marketability and they couldn't entertain the majority of the crowd. Pro wrestling and sports entertainment are basically the same thing and that's why I watch the WWE. RAW is mainly entertainment and Smackdown is mainly wrestling.

I consider both of those men better than Cena as wrestlers. Is Cena better on the mic? Of course, but being good on the mic doesn't make you a wrestler, it makes you an entertainer.

Hogan is the best wrestler in history and you say he didn't know much about wrestling. Go watch his early work and see that he was a great technical wrestler. He stuck to something that work later and he was the most successful person at it. You lose again.

Again see my response above.

 

[Blue Chipper]

There ability to tell a story in the ring (NOT ON A MIC) is the most important thing. Cena doesn't do this. Cena does the whole superman thing and unless you hear the interviews he gives then you could care less about his matches. Shawn can take a one night match like the one with Shelton B. and tell a story with it and there is no build up.

There's a lot of things in your post that is flawed, however I wanted to touch on this. If you think that Cena doesn't have good story telling, obviously you don't know what this is. Story telling is a combination of workrate, ring psychology, and selling. Therefore, story telling is the ability to make a match look real and believable, the logic of the match in regards to a said wrestler, and the way someone expresses how they're hurt by a particular move. And, if you're comparing Shawn micheals and Cenas story telling, you should judge on that, in which case you'd find Cena has a lot more than you're giving him credit for.

 

[hlhbk]

If you judge them on what you listed Shawn blows him away, especially when Shawn was in his prime.

 

[obiwansidisi]

Oh, I have to say something in this one, because I can't stand fay-be-kay… I mean, HBK! I just want to make sure we’re talking about the same guy. Is this the guy whom Batista had beaten until the very end of the match, and then pulls “Sweet Chin Music” out of nowhere, standing on the ankle that he can barely walk on? The same guy who breaks up possibly one of the greatest feuds ever in Mr. Kennedy and Ric Flair, because he just had to be the one to take Flair out at WM? The guy who lost his smile and jobbed to JBL only to make a surprise turn at the last minute? The guy who leaves for months, only to come back the #1 contender, each and every time before he even gets to unpack his gym bag? The guy who makes the WWE champ pull a mid-carder, so that he can main event? The guy who holds back the younger talent because he never gets pinned in a match, only loses by DQ, except for when he’s in a tag match and can sacrifice his partner? The guy who went into retirement and fought Y2J in an “unsanctioned” match, but mysteriously, Vince never got sued for liability? The same guy who stole Hogan’s “Hulk-up” routine, getting beat down and rallying the crowd at the last second? The same guy who’s going to be #1 contender the moment he comes back? That HBK?

I nearly pissed my pants when he jobbed to ‘Taker. The only reason that he doesn’t have the title, is because he feels that he’s more important than the title…

 

[obiwansidisi]

There ability to tell a story in the ring (NOT ON A MIC) is the most important thing. Cena doesn't do this. Cena does the whole superman thing and unless you hear the interviews he gives then you could care less about his matches. Shawn can take a one night match like the one with Shelton B. and tell a story with it and there is no build up.

I've got to stop you there... Cena’s a beast in the ring; Vince won’t let him do it. There are roles in the WWE. Think about it… Cena used to be a rapper until Crime Tyme came in. Crime Tyme doesn’t even rap anymore… R-Truth does now. Batista wasn’t billed as “The Animal” until after the Road Warriors ended. No one else does the “Ballin’” routine that MVP does. No one else wears a mask but Mysterio. No one else wears the black light makeup except Jeff Hardy. There’s only one “Legend Killer”, only one “World’s Strongest Man”. HBK’s the only one who prays on stage, The Undertaker’s the only one who plays a zombie and worships the darkness… you get my point, everyone has a role. Cena was the s**t in OVW, but in WWE, he was made to fit into a “Brawler” type role, because you already have Shelton Benjamin, who was a technical wrestler, and SCSA had just left, so Vince wanted someone to fill that gap. If you think about it, after Cena did “The Marine”, he slipped into Sgt. Slaughter’s old role.

 

[hlhbk]

Oh, I have to say something in this one, because I can't stand fay-be-kay… I mean, HBK! I just want to make sure we’re talking about the same guy. Is this the guy whom Batista had beaten until the very end of the match, and then pulls “Sweet Chin Music” out of nowhere, standing on the ankle that he can barely walk on?

It was part of a storyline, good to see you can't tell the difference.

The same guy who breaks up possibly one of the greatest feuds ever in Mr. Kennedy and Ric Flair, because he just had to be the one to take Flair out at WM?

You base this on what? Flair has said he wanted Shawn to be his last match, and he got what he wanted, Shawn had nothing to do with it.

The guy who lost his smile and jobbed to JBL only to make a surprise turn at the last minute?

In regards to losing his smile speech that was when he was told by a doctor he would never wrestle again due to his knee shortly before wrestlemania 13. If you were told you would never be able to do something you love for the rest of your life I am sure you would just be happy go lucky.

In regards to JBL, again nice to see you can't see that's a story line.

The guy who leaves for months, only to come back the #1 contender, each and every time before he even gets to unpack his gym bag?

Based on what HBK has done for the wrestling industry and the fact he sacrificed his body for the bussiness he deserves it each and every time.

The guy who makes the WWE champ pull a
mid-carder, so that he can main event?

Last time I checked HBK's name wasn't Vince McMahon. He can only wrestle where Vince books him.

The guy who holds back the younger talent because he never gets pinned in a match, only loses by DQ, except for when he’s in a tag match and can sacrifice his partner?

When did we start talking about Hogan, because I know we aren't talking about Shawn?

The guy who went into retirement and fought Y2J in an “unsanctioned” match, but mysteriously, Vince never got sued for liability?

Again nice to see you can't tell between storyline and reality.

The same guy who stole Hogan’s “Hulk-up” routine, getting beat down and rallying the crowd at the last second?

The same man who is 100 times more talented than Hogan and should be considered by everyone on the same level if not better than hogan?

The same guy who’s going to be #1 contender the moment he comes back? That HBK?

I nearly pissed my pants when he jobbed to ‘Taker. The only reason that he doesn’t have the title, is because he feels that he’s more important than the title…

Again he deserves that spot. I have seen Cena in OVW by the way and was never impressed with him at all. Also it's nice to see that most of your points were either false or part of a storyline. Your credability is awesome.

 

[Blue Chipper]

If you judge them on what you listed Shawn blows him away, especially when Shawn was in his prime.

I'd say they're almost equal, however cena currently is a better story teller. You can always believe his matches, always feel his pain that's etched on his face, and he always plays to the crowd and gets them into a match. Shawn hasn't done that on cena's level in years.

 

[hlhbk]

I'd say they're almost equal, however cena currently is a better story teller. You can always believe his matches, always feel his pain that's etched on his face, and he always plays to the crowd and gets them into a match. Shawn hasn't done that on cena's level in years.

Um who had the best match at this past wrestlemania and had the most emotional response from the fans? I know his name wasn't cena.

 

[Blue Chipper]

Um who had the best match at this past wrestlemania and had the most emotional response from the fans? I know his name wasn't cena.

You're right, but that was at WrestleMania, when HBK steps up his game, and he was facing Undertaker nevertheless. HBK can have entertaining matches that have great story telling incorporated, when he wants to. He's not as consistent as Cena, however. That same WM Cena performed excellent in that triple threat and since he's had great matches.

 

[SSJPhenom]

This has become ridiculous! How can you, so called, fans of wrestling dis HBK like this? He certainly deserves more credit than you all give him. HBK is the best in ring performer right now in the WWE. There isn't one of his matches that fails to be exciting or fun to watch. Whether the match is actually good or not(based on your opinion) you watch it because it is HBK and his name equals greatness.

There isn't a person posting in this thread that wouldn't be excited to hear HBK's music hit on Monday and him come out and either speak or attack someone. If you say that you wouldn't be excited then you are lying.

HBK has proven himself time and time again to be the best in ring performer there is. No one, not Cena, HHH, Jericho, Mysterio, Hardy, 'Taker, etc etc. is better than HBK.

Someone mentioned that HBK will come back and get a title shot. Not only does he deserve to be in the spot light for what he has done for the company, but with the serious lack of Main Event talent on Raw, he is needed in the spotlight. Who wants to see HHH/Orton, Orton/Cena, or HHH/Cena for the Hundredth time?

HBK constantly proves why he is at the top and why he can stay at the top and Cena can't even lace his boots.

 

[hlhbk]

You're right, but that was at WrestleMania, when HBK steps up his game, and he was facing Undertaker nevertheless. HBK can have entertaining matches that have great story telling incorporated, when he wants to. He's not as consistent as Cena, however. That same WM Cena performed excellent in that triple threat and since he's had great matches.

The guy is 44. Of course he isn't going to be on his game 100% of the time. That being said his game at 50% is far better than 99.9% of the wrestlers in the WWE. There has never been nor is there currently anyone who was better than HBK in his prime, that is not up for debate.

Very few of these new guys make me care about their matches. Until they step up and are not forced down our throat we need to rely on guys like Shawn. Like JR has said in the past Vince needs Shawn, not the other way around.

I have a question for the 3 people in this thread who are bashing Shawn and love Cena. What are your ages, and when did you start watching wrestling?

 

[obiwansidisi]

It was part of a storyline, good to see you can't tell the difference. You base this on what? Flair has said he wanted Shawn to be his last match, and he got what he wanted, Shawn had nothing to do with it. In regards to losing his smile speech that was when he was told by a doctor he would never wrestle again due to his knee shortly before wrestlemania 13. If you were told you would never be able to do something you love for the rest of your life I am sure you would just be happy go lucky. In regards to JBL, again nice to see you can't see that's a story line. Based on what HBK has done for the wrestling industry and the fact he sacrificed his body for the bussiness he deserves it each and every time. Last time I checked HBK's name wasn't Vince McMahon. He can only wrestle where Vince books him. When did we start talking about Hogan, because I know we aren't talking about Shawn? Again nice to see you can't tell between storyline and reality. The same man who is 100 times more talented than Hogan and should be considered by everyone on the same level if not better than hogan? Again he deserves that spot. I have seen Cena in OVW by the way and was never impressed with him at all. Also it's nice to see that most of your points were either false or part of a storyline. Your credability is awesome.

That was my point exactly... it's all storyline, and in the storyline, HBK does all of those things and more... but where did this stem from? Yep, "The Bret Hart incident". Ever since then, HBK has been given the favorable storylines... fact, that has nothing to do with my "crediblity" as it were... putting his body on the line? How many guys in the WWE have done that? Has even half of them enjoyed the success that Shawn has? No... plenty of guys put their body on the line, that's the nature of the business. Uh... The Brooklyn Brawler can put over a match better than Hogan, so you're not saying much there...